Show Up Difficulty Feedback [Title Edited for Clarity]

Is this a bug? Plus the annoying nodes AND 1.4 million health AND we can only bring 4 star champions?! What is going on? For only 3k 5* shards?/

Comments

Kabam Miike

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC

Those were listed exactly as they are in the announcement: https://playcontestofchampions.com/about-summoner-showdown-2020-and-faq/

Moot4Life

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC
500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?
im pretty sure it would be faster to grind arena for 1.4 million health (for general populace, if you can solo it then it would be better to do this i think)
But everyone needs gold. 1000's of threads on "I need gold", That's your Epic Rewards.

but i think everybody who complains about it cant beat it

Moot4Life

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC
Those were listed exactly as they are in the announcement: https://playcontestofchampions.com/about-summoner-showdown-2020-and-faq/

Thank you, I will have a look!

Upon further inspection, it has come to my attention that these rewards do not seem to be very "epic". Especially not "EPIC". Maybe "heroic" or "masterful" at best.

Ciciliato

500k gold just for some time to get better and no items helped me a lot. And I was lucky too because I have 1 4 star from each class and Medusa is my cosmic

Demonzfyre

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC
Those were listed exactly as they are in the announcement: https://playcontestofchampions.com/about-summoner-showdown-2020-and-faq/

What they are saying is that both quests were promised to have EPIC rewards, not just showdown. People read into it expecting all kinds of things and were wrong.

Demonzfyre

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC
500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?
im pretty sure it would be faster to grind arena for 1.4 million health (for general populace, if you can solo it then it would be better to do this i think)
But everyone needs gold. 1000's of threads on "I need gold", That's your Epic Rewards.
The gold was definitely nice 🤷‍♂️

Of course it is lol. I'll take gold any day of the week. I don't need it now but will at some point soon.

Ciciliato

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

The challenge to complete really make my morning, I can say that I play better now. So was very fun to me

Jaded

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC
500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?
im pretty sure it would be faster to grind arena for 1.4 million health (for general populace, if you can solo it then it would be better to do this i think)
But everyone needs gold. 1000's of threads on "I need gold", That's your Epic Rewards.
The gold was definitely nice 🤷‍♂️
Of course it is lol. I'll take gold any day of the week. I don't need it now but will at some point soon.

Ikr between v5 100% and this it’s raining gold for future uses 😂

TrueMaster

Well, at least they're doing something...

DNA3000

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
I agree with you on this challenge. The only issue I saw with it was the resources needed to rank up champs they gated from end game content. I would rather see them lower the opponent to a boosted 4* and limit champs used to 3*s. They are much cheaper to rank for a fun challenge and don't share the same rankup resources as 4*s. This would also open up more options for smaller accounts who are still searching for 4*s.
If there's one game mechanical feature I wish the game possessed when it comes to content like this, it is the "autolevel" feature many MMOs have, where if you enter content much higher or much lower than you are the game "levels you" temporarily to that level. If players could bring their 5* champs into content like this but the game autoleveled them down to 5/50s, I think that would in most cases be a good thing.

This would preserve one element I think the devs want to keep, namely searching your roster for the best option available rather than everyone just automatically using the same options, but eliminate the need to rank up (or down) champs to the appropriate challenge level. It would, however, mean you couldn't "outlevel" such content, because you would just get autoleveled back down if you tried to use higher champs. For this content that's not an issue, but it could be in other content.
Do you think it would have been possible if a beta server was Available with unlimited rank up mats and iso etc? As to me at least that sounds like a good idea but don't know if its actually a realistic option.

Yes, but mostly no. Yes, a "Show Up" server cluster where we had unlimited resources that wouldn't impact the live game solves the problem of how to allow players to do rank up-type activity to run this content. But that would be impractical for two main reasons. First, if you expect a high percentage of players to attempt the content that "beta server" has to be huge, to accommodate all those players. The normal beta servers used for beta testing the game typically only have to handle a small subset of players, and doesn't need a ton of capacity. And second, you've created a reward awarding problem where because the players are on the beta server, they can't get rewards to their live account. There would have to be a separate process for manually awarding rewards to players who completed the content, which would again be time and resource consuming.

So possible in theory, but almost certainly impractical in practice. At least for Show Up. If there was a way to limit the number of realistically competitive players for Showdown qualifiers, then it might be less problematic. But honestly if you're gunning for the tournament qualification I don't think rank up materials are a big price to pay for that.

Demonzfyre

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC
500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?
im pretty sure it would be faster to grind arena for 1.4 million health (for general populace, if you can solo it then it would be better to do this i think)
But everyone needs gold. 1000's of threads on "I need gold", That's your Epic Rewards.
The gold was definitely nice 🤷‍♂️

Of course it is lol. I'll take gold any day of the week. I don't need it now but will at some point soon.

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC
500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?
im pretty sure it would be faster to grind arena for 1.4 million health (for general populace, if you can solo it then it would be better to do this i think)
But everyone needs gold. 1000's of threads on "I need gold", That's your Epic Rewards.
The gold was definitely nice 🤷‍♂️
Of course it is lol. I'll take gold any day of the week. I don't need it now but will at some point soon.
Ikr between v5 100% and this it’s raining gold for future uses 😂

I'm eyeing an R3 6* Red Magneto soon lol. Gonna need SOOO much of it.

Onmix

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC
500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?
im pretty sure it would be faster to grind arena for 1.4 million health (for general populace, if you can solo it then it would be better to do this i think)

No thanks. Grinding arena is WAY more boring and time consuming than this fight.
I’d take this fight over arena a million times.

Onmix

@Kabam Miike just wanted to pop in here and tell you how much I appreciate the changes you made to show up difficulty. This is a really, really good sign. You made a change the day after it came out after listening to community. That I appreciate. The fight will still be a challenge with all the nodes and health pool, but at least now it will be a fair fight. Cheers!
No it won't. You can use 5 and 6*'s now. This isn't anything different than a ROL fight against Winter Solider. If 5000% HP increase was 1.4 mil, that takes him below 500k. This will be a walk in the park with a R3 5* Mephisto even. There is NO challenge left to this.
No challenge to you maybe. And definitely not to me. But what use is it going to be if it is a community wide event but a majority of players don't stand a chance?

Yes , yes, you want a challenge and not be fed in a bottle but for that you have the showdown.

I really don’t understand this.

So they’d prefer NOT having that fight than having this difficult one to practice on?
Or would they prefer they gated it behind progression or level or title as they do other events?
I’m sure they would be mad they weren’t allowed to participate in it.

Both times it would’ve been too much of a fuzz for one free fight. ONE.

StevieManWonder

Dang, wished I read this before I wasted t4cc taking up Colossus. Oh well, at least now I have four full arena teams of maxed four stars.

DNA3000

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC
Those were listed exactly as they are in the announcement: https://playcontestofchampions.com/about-summoner-showdown-2020-and-faq/
Thank you, I will have a look!

Upon further inspection, it has come to my attention that these rewards do not seem to be very "epic". Especially not "EPIC". Maybe "heroic" or "masterful" at best.

I'm honestly surprised at this point that no one has pointed out the announcement says "participate for epic rewards" and nowhere says you have to actually beat the boss.

Lormif

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.
A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.
It isn’t, that is just an explanation of why you’re arguing. 👍

no, that is literally the issue here, the arguments that have been resented in this very same thread as the issue.

Moot4Life

Is it just me or it is kind of weird how it says "participate for epic rewards" and nowhere it says you have to actually beat the boss?

GroundedWisdom

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
Just out or curiosity, have you ever not written an essay on the forums
There are times I do
When I think less would be fine
Or to make a point

Nice Haiku.

Jaded

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.
A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.
It isn’t, that is just an explanation of why you’re arguing. 👍
no, that is literally the issue here, the arguments that have been resented in this very same thread as the issue.

Exactly the point I made about your argument. Others express their opinion on the wording. You didn’t have to respond to them or make an argument out of it. It’s legitimately your argument. People are allowed to interpret any way they want. Not everyone reading the forums are English speaking and when English is converted to another language it doesn’t always make sense.

I just got sucked into his argument 🤦‍♂️

Lormif

Some of the take aways from the "community" in this thread, I use quotes because this form is not representative of the community as a whole.

- You are not allowed to restrict * levels of the champs able to participate.
- you are not allowed to restrict fights to a subset of champions able to fight by requiring specific abilities.
- you are not allowed to set fights such that any ability is on the fight that does damage to the players champion, or
it will be considered part of the above point, because you must then have an immune champion, even if you you
include a way to disable that damage

In addition from outside this thread we see that the "community" feels most fights are boring and kabam must find ways to make creative and challenging fights.

Of course these things are quite obviously contradicting, but hey whateves, not on the "community" to figure that one out.

Demonzfyre

Is it just me or it is kind of weird how it says "participate for epic rewards" and nowhere it says you have to actually beat the boss?

Need compensation just for it saying that.

Lormif

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.
A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.
It isn’t, that is just an explanation of why you’re arguing. 👍
no, that is literally the issue here, the arguments that have been resented in this very same thread as the issue.
Exactly the point I made about your argument. Others express their opinion on the wording. You didn’t have to respond to them or make an argument out of it. It’s legitimately your argument. People are allowed to interpret any way they want. Not everyone reading the forums are English speaking and when English is converted to another language it doesn’t always make sense.

I just got sucked into his argument 🤦‍♂️

No, people are not allowed to interpret things anyway they want. If I make a statement there is only one correct interpretation of that statement, the way I stated it. If you interpret it as a way I did not state it, and completely outside of the context, your interpretation is wrong. If I say 2+2=4 and you interpret that to mean 2+2=5, there is no way your interpretation can be viewed as legitimate.

StevieManWonder

On the bright side, I still managed to beat SS before he got nerfed with my newly ranked Colossus. I did have to use one revive, but I think I could have soloed it if I had more time to practice, I was racing to get it done before he got nerfed. Anyways, yeah this event really does suck, but it’s not horribly sucky. I don’t think the nerf was warranted, I would have preferred to a buff increase instead or to just remove the four star restriction. I’m gonna go in when it’s nerfed and take him down with my 6r3 Sym Supreme, but it’s not gonna be as satisfying since it’s no longer gonna be a 4000% increase healthpool. Can we please keep the health pool at least? With it only being a 1000%, it’s gonna be a joke.

Jaded

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.
A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.
It isn’t, that is just an explanation of why you’re arguing. 👍
no, that is literally the issue here, the arguments that have been resented in this very same thread as the issue.
Exactly the point I made about your argument. Others express their opinion on the wording. You didn’t have to respond to them or make an argument out of it. It’s legitimately your argument. People are allowed to interpret any way they want. Not everyone reading the forums are English speaking and when English is converted to another language it doesn’t always make sense.

I just got sucked into his argument 🤦‍♂️
No, people are not allowed to interpret things anyway they want. If I make a statement there is only one correct interpretation of that statement, the way I stated it. If you interpret it as a way I did not state it, and completely outside of the context, your interpretation is wrong. If I say 2+2=4 and you interpret that to mean 2+2=5, there is no way your interpretation can be viewed as legitimate.

It’s not your job to make it clear to people.

gohard123

So two challenges made exactly the same except one counts and is competitive but people are arguing that the other one should not be toned down for the rest of the community that dont want to compete? If you want a challenge do the one that counts. I dont get the argument here

Lormif

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.
A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.
It isn’t, that is just an explanation of why you’re arguing. 👍
no, that is literally the issue here, the arguments that have been resented in this very same thread as the issue.
Exactly the point I made about your argument. Others express their opinion on the wording. You didn’t have to respond to them or make an argument out of it. It’s legitimately your argument. People are allowed to interpret any way they want. Not everyone reading the forums are English speaking and when English is converted to another language it doesn’t always make sense.

I just got sucked into his argument 🤦‍♂️
No, people are not allowed to interpret things anyway they want. If I make a statement there is only one correct interpretation of that statement, the way I stated it. If you interpret it as a way I did not state it, and completely outside of the context, your interpretation is wrong. If I say 2+2=4 and you interpret that to mean 2+2=5, there is no way your interpretation can be viewed as legitimate.
It’s not your job to make it clear to people.

No one ever said it was my job, I have a job, I get paid quite well for what I do, but I never claimed this was it.. But hey, way to move them goal posts further.

Jaded

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.
A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.
It isn’t, that is just an explanation of why you’re arguing. 👍
no, that is literally the issue here, the arguments that have been resented in this very same thread as the issue.
Exactly the point I made about your argument. Others express their opinion on the wording. You didn’t have to respond to them or make an argument out of it. It’s legitimately your argument. People are allowed to interpret any way they want. Not everyone reading the forums are English speaking and when English is converted to another language it doesn’t always make sense.

I just got sucked into his argument 🤦‍♂️
No, people are not allowed to interpret things anyway they want. If I make a statement there is only one correct interpretation of that statement, the way I stated it. If you interpret it as a way I did not state it, and completely outside of the context, your interpretation is wrong. If I say 2+2=4 and you interpret that to mean 2+2=5, there is no way your interpretation can be viewed as legitimate.
It’s not your job to make it clear to people.
No one ever said it was my job, I have a job, I get paid quite well for what I do, but I never claimed this was it.. But hey, way to move them goal posts further.

You’ve lost your mind, telling me I’ve moved goal posts now? I said it’s not your job to make statements made by kabam clear to everyone. That counts as moving goal posts? I’m sure you literally grasp at nothing to make something.

Lormif

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.
A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.
It isn’t, that is just an explanation of why you’re arguing. 👍
no, that is literally the issue here, the arguments that have been resented in this very same thread as the issue.
Exactly the point I made about your argument. Others express their opinion on the wording. You didn’t have to respond to them or make an argument out of it. It’s legitimately your argument. People are allowed to interpret any way they want. Not everyone reading the forums are English speaking and when English is converted to another language it doesn’t always make sense.

I just got sucked into his argument 🤦‍♂️
No, people are not allowed to interpret things anyway they want. If I make a statement there is only one correct interpretation of that statement, the way I stated it. If you interpret it as a way I did not state it, and completely outside of the context, your interpretation is wrong. If I say 2+2=4 and you interpret that to mean 2+2=5, there is no way your interpretation can be viewed as legitimate.
It’s not your job to make it clear to people.
No one ever said it was my job, I have a job, I get paid quite well for what I do, but I never claimed this was it.. But hey, way to move them goal posts further.
You’ve lost your mind, telling me I’ve moved goal posts now? I said it’s not your job to make statements made by kabam clear to everyone. That counts as moving goal posts? I’m sure you literally grasp at nothing to make something.

Moving the goal posts is when you make one argument, such as anyone is allowed to interpret anything how they want, then when confronted with a counter argument instead of addressing the counter argument you make a completely different argument, such as it is not your job...

It is also not your job to tell me what my job is, but here you are.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Jaded

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was
Also increase the rewards.
I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards
It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.
I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.
A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.
It isn’t, that is just an explanation of why you’re arguing. 👍
no, that is literally the issue here, the arguments that have been resented in this very same thread as the issue.
Exactly the point I made about your argument. Others express their opinion on the wording. You didn’t have to respond to them or make an argument out of it. It’s legitimately your argument. People are allowed to interpret any way they want. Not everyone reading the forums are English speaking and when English is converted to another language it doesn’t always make sense.

I just got sucked into his argument 🤦‍♂️
No, people are not allowed to interpret things anyway they want. If I make a statement there is only one correct interpretation of that statement, the way I stated it. If you interpret it as a way I did not state it, and completely outside of the context, your interpretation is wrong. If I say 2+2=4 and you interpret that to mean 2+2=5, there is no way your interpretation can be viewed as legitimate.
It’s not your job to make it clear to people.
No one ever said it was my job, I have a job, I get paid quite well for what I do, but I never claimed this was it.. But hey, way to move them goal posts further.
You’ve lost your mind, telling me I’ve moved goal posts now? I said it’s not your job to make statements made by kabam clear to everyone. That counts as moving goal posts? I’m sure you literally grasp at nothing to make something.
Moving the goal posts is when you make one argument, such as anyone is allowed to interpret anything how they want, then when confronted with a counter argument instead of addressing the counter argument you make a completely different argument, such as it is not your job...

It is also not your job to tell me what my job is, but here you are.

Yup here we are. Caught in a mindless conversation about a companies wording on a statement they made. Not you, not me. Them, they made it. They can clear it up on their own. You obviously don’t appreciate being told it’s not your job. So, I’m sorry for making that clear to you. It isn’t my job to do so and I over stepped my boundaries by saying that.

It’s not YOUR responsibility to make statements made by kabam clear to others.

Since I have to spell out what the “job” part meant and didn’t mean you work for kabam.