Challenging vs. Punishing - Where do you draw the line?

This is a pretty subjective question, so I would expect the answers to vary quite a lot, but I'm curious ... where do you draw the line between content that feels like punishment vs. content that feels like a reasonable challenge?

I'll give you my example:

I'm currently exploring Cavalier difficulty. When I explore content, I usually work my way backward after initial completion. Unlike a few people I've seen on the forums, I do not find Cavalier too easy - I find most of it challenging and pushes the limits of my skill and my roster. I usually throw on a boost and there are a few lanes that require other items like health potions or revives.

To me, this is challenging - most of the content is difficult enough for me and I expect to use a few items here and there, but I don't feel defeated or beaten down by the time I get through the boss.

I feel different about the Encroaching Stun lanes in 3.1, however. To me, they move past the point of being a challenge into the zone of being punishing - and there are several reasons why.

Encroaching Stun is a challenge enough on its own - grouping it with Biohazard really narrows down attacker options, but then adding Specialist-2 on top of it all makes the fights unnecessarily long and painful.
I don't feel like encroaching stun was designed well in the first place. I feel like the opponent's special attack should also count on your behalf and they don't. Seeing the defender turtle up and throw their special attack the moment you try to launch yours is not fun at all.
Specific defenders with really long special attacks and glancing abilities were purposely chosen for these paths and that added an additional level of difficulty that was not necessary.
Lastly, Seeing Red is a ridiculous node and does nothing to help mutant champs that bleed. You're still forced to bring bleed immune or heavily bleed-resistant champs, and there are few mutants that fit that category well.

So, to summarize - a node like Encroaching Stun already has a poor design, but it's doable. Grouping it with Biohazard is extra challenging, even with a mostly useless benefit like Seeing Red. However, picking the worst possible defenders for Encroaching Stun and then making the fights unnecessarily long is where I feel like the fights were punishing and not rewarding in any way.

Where do you draw the line?

Why is certain content challenging and fun for you, but other content is punishing and not worth it?

Comments

Kill_Grey

Speaking of that entire quest, it's almost like it was designed to specifically hamper champs like G2099. Encroaching stun, static blast, power struggle, etc are nodes that restrict your champ's power gain abilities, and really slows down Champs like Guilly. I admit, I used her for the entire Biohazard quest in last month's EQ, but this time, seems like it's only 1/2 paths she can effectively handle.

And it's not just her that's affected, almost every other immune champ is reliant to some extent on their specials. I would have hated to use Ghost and Claire without suicides for the entire thing, but now I probably have no choice. Gonna be some long fights 😓

TheLegend27

I think things like that node on the mordo boss in Act 6 where a penalty is incurred for each KO'd member of your team is simply not challenging. That's just punishment and a way to get the player to waste items.

Things like that just kill any joy that I might have otherwise had in a quest.

Crcrcrc

Challenging is fights with lots of health and special nodes. Punishing is fights with over 2 conflicting nodes and attack value to kill you in one hit

Bonzodavid

I think punishing is when you have only a very few counters, or there's just unavoidable damage

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JueVioleGrace

The main issue for me occurs when you're punished for doing what the node is asking you do for. Prime example is 6.2.2 Mr sinister. Caustic temper requires you to have a fury buff, but then E.M.P. mod punishes you for having that buff. Like, what?!?

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Fluffy_paws

They aren't the absolute worst so I'm not really complaining much but in this month's side quest when there's take x as damage unless y is on the defender.
When y = bleed/poison and defender = Sentinel/Warlock, I'm forced to take shock or whatever. And there's heal block so rip willpower.

DNA3000

So, to summarize - a node like Encroaching Stun already has a poor design, but it's doable. Grouping it with Biohazard is extra challenging, even with a mostly useless benefit like Seeing Red. However, picking the worst possible defenders for Encroaching Stun and then making the fights unnecessarily long is where I feel like the fights were punishing and not rewarding in any way.

Where do you draw the line?

There's no simple answer to this question, but I think your encroaching stun example contains a kernel of a root issue for me personally. For me, one place where the line between challenging and punishing exists is in whether the overall difficulty of the content is composed of components I can individually overcome, or if so many simultaneous avenues of difficulty exist that I can't easily separate them. For example, encroaching stun with Beast is a challenge for me, because I know how to fight Beast and can already control the fight to an extent, so encroaching stun becomes an additional layer of challenge on that fight. But Mojo requires a lot more head space to keep track of what's going on, and it isn't a fight I can automatically keep perfect control of. So layering encroaching stun on that fight is, for me, more punishing than challenging because any effort I expend to control one aspect of the fight basically causes me to lose control of another part, and usually die. There are more things I need to do in that fight than I can keep track of, so no amount of effort will cause me to see that fight as anything other than something to plow through. In fact, I'm all but punished for even trying to finesse that fight: it makes more sense to just try to brute force it and use a revive or two.

Now, this is relative. I'm not saying the fight is necessarily *intrinsically* punishing. It is punishing for me, because I am not someone with full control over the Mojo fight now, so encroaching stun is overwhelming for me. But maybe in a year or two it won't be. Where you draw the line depends as much on what kind of player you're assuming should be a reasonable match for the content difficulty. But for me, that's qualitatively where I tend to draw the line. If I can separate the components of the fight and overcome them, that's more rewarding than punishing. If not, it is more punishing than rewarding.

The Infinity Thanos fight is another good example of the principle. That fight hits you with all sorts of challenges that not every player is good at: reverse controls, intercepting, learning the specials. But when he appeared he did so on a map with just him. So you could try to get better fighting through his phases with practice. without a lot of extraneous cost and effort. You could work your way up to defeating him. Encroaching Stun Mojo is not as easy to do that with, which adds more friction to the experience. No one wants to exit and reenter a path and work their way up to a troublesome fight repeatedly, and the costs in energy are higher to do so. So while Thanos hits you with a lot of stuff, its stuff you can take apart piece by piece and try to get better at overcoming, because there's an inexpensive avenue to practicing the fight.

Thanos is harder. But Mojo is more annoying. Neither is *super* punishing, but I believe Thanos is well within the rewarding side, while Mojo is a step and a half over the line into more punishing and less rewarding. For me.

Mauled

I’m exploring 6.2.5 at the moment and I can say that it is pretty much everything wrong with node design bundled into one quest.

A lot of the nodes in there aren’t awful in and of themselves but combined with the global, champion gates and that disgrace of a node on Mordo you’ve got a quest that so far has cost me the same as all of 6.3 on its own.

There’s usually one path in a quest where you kind of assume that the designer has just had an argument with their other half and taken it out on you. 6.2.5 is the time they got divorced and lost 70% of the house and custody of the kids.

WeeHobbit89

I dont know about you but I'm sick of death of the 'dis track' and 'buffed up' nodes. Every monthly quest has it in cavalier and it is a joke. Buffed up locks me into using venom or wasting a team to build with heimdall, hela and guillotine to count as 2 buffs. That means doing the whole map with 2 champs. Kabam should find a better way to get us to use a 'variety' of champs. Cavalier is built for you to need a team to rank 5 skills, mutants, tech, cosmic, mystic, science to complete it. If not, it's the wallet that does it. Bloody joke

JueVioleGrace

I dont know about you but I'm sick of death of the 'dis track' and 'buffed up' nodes. Every monthly quest has it in cavalier and it is a joke. Buffed up locks me into using venom or wasting a team to build with heimdall, hela and guillotine to count as 2 buffs. That means doing the whole map with 2 champs. Kabam should find a better way to get us to use a 'variety' of champs. Cavalier is built for you to need a team to rank 5 skills, mutants, tech, cosmic, mystic, science to complete it. If not, it's the wallet that does it. Bloody joke

I've done them itemless with rank 4s. You sure it's not just you?

OGAvenger

The example that always comes to my mind on this topic is nodes like “does 50% less damage if x” versus “does 100% less damage if x”

This is one of the biggest mistakes I’ve seen Kabam make in recent node design. Nodes like “does 50% less damage if x” still make the fight more challenging as it makes the twice as long if you don’t bring the right counter and gives you more time to mess up in long fights such as Act 6. However, nodes like “90% less damage” or “100% less damage” just make the fight restrictive. If you don’t bring the right counter then it’s either impossible or you’re going to be absolutely miserable.

I’ve never understood why they decided to take that route and why they continue to

Palanthrax

6.2.5 is where I draw the line, Kabam got carried away, and they know it.

WeeHobbit89

I dont know about you but I'm sick of death of the 'dis track' and 'buffed up' nodes. Every monthly quest has it in cavalier and it is a joke. Buffed up locks me into using venom or wasting a team to build with heimdall, hela and guillotine to count as 2 buffs. That means doing the whole map with 2 champs. Kabam should find a better way to get us to use a 'variety' of champs. Cavalier is built for you to need a team to rank 5 skills, mutants, tech, cosmic, mystic, science to complete it. If not, it's the wallet that does it. Bloody joke
I've done them itemless with rank 4s. You sure it's not just you?

Say what you want. And just curious, what's champs did you use?

Kill_Grey

I dont know about you but I'm sick of death of the 'dis track' and 'buffed up' nodes. Every monthly quest has it in cavalier and it is a joke. Buffed up locks me into using venom or wasting a team to build with heimdall, hela and guillotine to count as 2 buffs. That means doing the whole map with 2 champs. Kabam should find a better way to get us to use a 'variety' of champs. Cavalier is built for you to need a team to rank 5 skills, mutants, tech, cosmic, mystic, science to complete it. If not, it's the wallet that does it. Bloody joke
I've done them itemless with rank 4s. You sure it's not just you?
Say what you want. And just curious, what's champs did you use?

Angela did it for me.

DNA3000

The example that always comes to my mind on this topic is nodes like “does 50% less damage if x” versus “does 100% less damage if x”

This is one of the biggest mistakes I’ve seen Kabam make in recent node design. Nodes like “does 50% less damage if x” still make the fight more challenging as it makes the twice as long if you don’t bring the right counter and gives you more time to mess up in long fights such as Act 6. However, nodes like “90% less damage” or “100% less damage” just make the fight restrictive. If you don’t bring the right counter then it’s either impossible or you’re going to be absolutely miserable.

I’ve never understood why they decided to take that route and why they continue to

Fundamentally there are two obvious ways to make a fight more difficult. You can somehow increase the amount of damage that the defender can inflict on you, or you can reduce the damage that you can inflict on the defender. When you get right down to it, the only thing that ultimately matters in a fight is your health bar and their health bar. And of those two options, increasing the threat level/damage of the AI is generally considered the more punishing one.

Of course there are more and less creative ways to do this, but the bottom line is that nodes that reduce your damage unless X are the most straight forward way to satisfy the two objectives of making different champs more valuable, and making the content more difficult without simply cranking up the defender's stats. So it happens a lot, and actually over time it happens more and more often, as a replacement for just handing the AI +700% attack. And to be frank, I'll take diss track over just cranking up the defender's attack rating to the point that all their attacks might as well be unblockable.

OGAvenger

The example that always comes to my mind on this topic is nodes like “does 50% less damage if x” versus “does 100% less damage if x”

This is one of the biggest mistakes I’ve seen Kabam make in recent node design. Nodes like “does 50% less damage if x” still make the fight more challenging as it makes the twice as long if you don’t bring the right counter and gives you more time to mess up in long fights such as Act 6. However, nodes like “90% less damage” or “100% less damage” just make the fight restrictive. If you don’t bring the right counter then it’s either impossible or you’re going to be absolutely miserable.

I’ve never understood why they decided to take that route and why they continue to
Fundamentally there are two obvious ways to make a fight more difficult. You can somehow increase the amount of damage that the defender can inflict on you, or you can reduce the damage that you can inflict on the defender. When you get right down to it, the only thing that ultimately matters in a fight is your health bar and their health bar. And of those two options, increasing the threat level/damage of the AI is generally considered the more punishing one.

Of course there are more and less creative ways to do this, but the bottom line is that nodes that reduce your damage unless X are the most straight forward way to satisfy the two objectives of making different champs more valuable, and making the content more difficult without simply cranking up the defender's stats. So it happens a lot, and actually over time it happens more and more often, as a replacement for just handing the AI +700% attack. And to be frank, I'll take diss track over just cranking up the defender's attack rating to the point that all their attacks might as well be unblockable.

I don’t necessarily disagree but how does 50% less damage not make different champs more valuable and make the content more challenging?

90% or 100% less damage just limits the number of champs you can actually use where as 50% less damage makes the best out both worlds. It certainly makes champs more valuable because with health pools already getting bigger, making it twice as long is challenging. However, it doesn’t restrict you to use only a select few champs to even have a chance. Also, suppose you chose to takes the 50% less damage and just power through you are choosing to make the fight longer than needed. If it’s 100% less damage you have no option. Use the correct champs or you won’t get by

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Masterpuff

I dont know about you but I'm sick of death of the 'dis track' and 'buffed up' nodes. Every monthly quest has it in cavalier and it is a joke. Buffed up locks me into using venom or wasting a team to build with heimdall, hela and guillotine to count as 2 buffs. That means doing the whole map with 2 champs. Kabam should find a better way to get us to use a 'variety' of champs. Cavalier is built for you to need a team to rank 5 skills, mutants, tech, cosmic, mystic, science to complete it. If not, it's the wallet that does it. Bloody joke
Diss track and buffed up rnt even that bad with supplement nodes. While they r limiting, they increase ur damage by a ton. I 100% eq with 4 stars in those chapters due to their substantial damage increase

Theyre not challenging though. Theyre just limiting and boring.

Silver_Goose

I dont know about you but I'm sick of death of the 'dis track' and 'buffed up' nodes. Every monthly quest has it in cavalier and it is a joke. Buffed up locks me into using venom or wasting a team to build with heimdall, hela and guillotine to count as 2 buffs. That means doing the whole map with 2 champs. Kabam should find a better way to get us to use a 'variety' of champs. Cavalier is built for you to need a team to rank 5 skills, mutants, tech, cosmic, mystic, science to complete it. If not, it's the wallet that does it. Bloody joke
Diss track and buffed up rnt even that bad with supplement nodes. While they r limiting, they increase ur damage by a ton. I 100% eq with 4 stars in those chapters due to their substantial damage increase
Theyre not challenging though. Theyre just limiting and boring.

100% agree. There are some nodes that are too niche and roster based, but not REALLY many that are too challenging or punishing.

Meebleton

I tend to draw the line on paper, but a whiteboard or Microsoft paint could also work

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