My hatred for Void deepens...

hungryhungrybbq

As someone who enjoys using the suicide masteries, I've always resented his design. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I've always thought you should only take damage from debuffs that Void himself places on you. At least it's skill based that way and it can be played around. You might say, "Don't fight him with Suicides on, bruh.." Cool. Unfortunately, the mastery respec process is painful to use and costs more units than it should because it's a clunky system that forces you to wipe and re-enter an entire tree even to respec one small part of that tree. It's a big ask just for one defender on a map. "Use Ghost or a double immune..." Sure, that's usually what I'm forced to do.

Then, he was intentionally paired with nodes that stack debuffs on you...ok, so the designers have taken it a step further now and actually embraced/doubled down on this part of his design to capitalize on debuffs that he himself did not place on the attacker. Ok..is what it is, I guess. What's the answer? Use a counter, a champ who shrugs debuffs. Often a skill champ. Which actually makes perfect sense as class advantage characters are often designed to counter the class which they have advantage over. 👍

After hearing about Kingpin's buff, I was pretty amped. I like XL champs, I need good skill champs to invest in as the class is in bad shape relative to other classes. Then, I discover that after his buff (which is a nice buff actually) he now literally cannot fight Void at all without taking severe, unavoidable damage? Seriously? He's a skill champ for whom a big piece of his kit is the ability to SHRUG DEBUFFS. He should be a hard counter to Void, but instead he can't even enter a fight with him? Like, Corvus vs Maw style? Seriously?

Void's ability to cause damage from debuffs that he himself did not place is out of control. When a skill champ, with class advantage who is actually made to shrug debuffs and also has had his abilities changed in an effort to make his own self applied debuffs be an asset for him, literally cannot successfully fight a champion he should actually be a counter to... Can we now finally rethink Void's design and if it actually does make sense?

Comments

ThatGuyYouSaw235

Magneto with Tech Champions:

I mean, that's what makes Void a great defender and no I don't want his design changed.

ThatGuyYouSaw235

Mate just because one guy has the class advantange doesn't mean he's a good option.

Take BWDO with HT for example or Magneto with most of the tech class etc.

hungryhungrybbq

I'm sorry, but a skill champ who is specifically designed to shrugs debuffs...should not be at a severe disadvantage against a science defender... who relies on debuffs. I really don't think anyone can come up with an intelligent argument for why this new interaction makes sense. But, give it whirl if you wish.

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hungryhungrybbq

Magneto doesn't have an advantage against techs. He has an advantage against metal champs. Which finally makes sense. Class relationship aside. It's an ability thing. Kingpin shrugs debuffs, but is unplayable against a debuff reliant champ?

hungryhungrybbq

Half your hate us based on the problems of mastery setup and swapping. Not really a void problem

Don't disagree there, really. It would be pretty difficult to find someone who enjoys the current respec process. But I do think Void's interaction with debuffs, regardless of type or what causes them has caused some illogical results. Also, there is no mastery respec that I know of that would make KP even playable against him. That's the problem in my opinion. Even metal champs can fight Magneto and have a chance at winning the fight. There's a difference between a disadvantage and not even having a chance.

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Why are people reacting to the buff as if Kingpin is the only Void counter? I'm willing to bet they weren't turning to him before the buff either.

hungryhungrybbq

Why are people reacting to the buff as if Kingpin is the only Void counter? I'm willing to bet they weren't turning to him before the buff either.

Naw, he's not. I just usually Ghost him anyway. It just doesn't make any sense. And to answer your question, after his buff, I would have used him against Void, sure. It's not easy to find skill/shrug off champs who..well..don't suck. His ability to shrug debuffs was cool, his damage was just unnecessarily low making him unusable. The point of the buff to begin with is to make him usable, yes? Just think it's unfortunate he's literally not usable against Void. Isn't part of the reason for these buffs to begin with to temp folks into using other champs besides Ghost/meta champs?

hungryhungrybbq

And I don't mind if he's not a counter. I just think it's crazy that he literally has no chance of winning against him. No one thinks that's weird? At least with Corvus vs Maw you can chalk it up to class relationship, I guess. Still think that one's a little over the top as well, but hey.

ThatGuyYouSaw235

Magneto doesn't have an advantage against techs. He has an advantage against metal champs. Which finally makes sense. Class relationship aside. It's an ability thing. Kingpin shrugs debuffs, but is unplayable against a debuff reliant champ?

Not sure if you've realised how many techs are magnetic, especially the ones that are a problem.

shadow_lurker22

Why are people reacting to the buff as if Kingpin is the only Void counter? I'm willing to bet they weren't turning to him before the buff either.
Naw, he's not. I just usually Ghost him anyway. It just doesn't make any sense. And to answer your question, after his buff, I would have used him against Void, sure. It's not easy to find skill/shrug off champs who..well..don't suck. His ability to shrug debuffs was cool, his damage was just unnecessarily low making him unusable. The point of the buff to begin with is to make him usable, yes? Just think it's unfortunate he's literally not usable against Void. Isn't part of the reason for these buffs to begin with to temp folks into using other champs besides Ghost/meta champs?

Then keep using Ghost

hungryhungrybbq

Sorry, I think you guys are missing the point. All good though.

shadow_lurker22

Sorry, I think you guys are missing the point. All good though.

I think you are missing the point. Void had been in the game for years countered and beaten multiple times.

hungryhungrybbq

Sorry, I think you guys are missing the point. All good though.
I think you are missing the point. Void had been in the game for years countered and beaten multiple times.

Right, missing the point. I don't have trouble fighting Void, at all. I've completed all content and have been playing for 4 years. I'm just saying, in my opinion, some of Void's interactions don't make sense to me. That's it. That's all I'm saying. And as far as the specific interaction KP's buff has.. I'm just saying it seems unfortunate it worked out that way. I'm still going rank and enjoy using KP. It doesn't ruin his buff..by any stretch. It's still a great buff. Definitely just sounds like like folks are misunderstanding that I'm just voicing an opinion. It's not going to affect my success or enjoyment of the game, at all.Though I suppose it's partly my fault for choosing such a strong title for the post.

Sorry, I think you guys are missing the point. All good though.
I think you are missing the point. Void had been in the game for years countered and beaten multiple times.
Right, missing the point. I don't have trouble fighting Void, at all. I've completed all content and have been playing for 4 years. I'm just saying, in my opinion, some of Void's interactions don't make sense to me. That's it. That's all I'm saying. And as far as the specific interaction KP's buff has.. I'm just saying it seems unfortunate it worked out that way. I'm still going rank and enjoy using KP. It doesn't ruin his buff..by any stretch. It's still a great buff. Definitely just sounds like like folks are misunderstanding that I'm just voicing an opinion. It's not going to affect my success or enjoyment of the game, at all.

What about Void's interactions doesn't make sense? Or more specifically what about Void's interactions with debuffs doesn't make sense?

hungryhungrybbq

Sorry, I think you guys are missing the point. All good though.
I think you are missing the point. Void had been in the game for years countered and beaten multiple times.
Right, missing the point. I don't have trouble fighting Void, at all. I've completed all content and have been playing for 4 years. I'm just saying, in my opinion, some of Void's interactions don't make sense to me. That's it. That's all I'm saying. And as far as the specific interaction KP's buff has.. I'm just saying it seems unfortunate it worked out that way. I'm still going rank and enjoy using KP. It doesn't ruin his buff..by any stretch. It's still a great buff. Definitely just sounds like like folks are misunderstanding that I'm just voicing an opinion. It's not going to affect my success or enjoyment of the game, at all.
What about Void's interactions doesn't make sense?

In my opinion, I think it's weird that a skill champ who has shrugging debuffs as a large part of his kit cannot win a fight against him. It seems like a design oversight to me. Again, just my opinion. I guess it also boils down to the fact that I don't like matchups that can be automatic losses. I think most matchups should be either neutral or contain a slight or heavy advantage/disadvantage. Of course, it's part of the strategy of the game. But, I'm just not a big fan of Corvus vs Maw type interactions and now KP vs Void. It's made me question whether it makes sense for Void to capitalize on debuffs he himself did not place. That's all.

hungryhungrybbq

Just humor me for a second. Let me now ask you guys what the negative implications would be if all of a sudden Void was changed to only inflict damage on debuffs that either he, a node or his own masteries have placed on the opponent. In other words, if any debuff that his opponent placed on themselves via ability or masteries did not count anymore.

hungryhungrybbq

Void would still capitalize on all debuffs placed by his own abilities, the nodes and his own masteries. Just not ones placed on his opponent by their OWN abilities or masteries. He could still capitalize on masteries such as Resonate, Despair, etc. And still capitalize on nodes like Long Distance Relationship, etc. All of that would still function as designed. Maybe this helps clarify my suggestion?

Sorry, I think you guys are missing the point. All good though.
I think you are missing the point. Void had been in the game for years countered and beaten multiple times.
Right, missing the point. I don't have trouble fighting Void, at all. I've completed all content and have been playing for 4 years. I'm just saying, in my opinion, some of Void's interactions don't make sense to me. That's it. That's all I'm saying. And as far as the specific interaction KP's buff has.. I'm just saying it seems unfortunate it worked out that way. I'm still going rank and enjoy using KP. It doesn't ruin his buff..by any stretch. It's still a great buff. Definitely just sounds like like folks are misunderstanding that I'm just voicing an opinion. It's not going to affect my success or enjoyment of the game, at all.
What about Void's interactions doesn't make sense?
In my opinion, I think it's weird that a skill champ who has shrugging debuffs as a large part of his kit cannot win a fight against him. It seems like a design oversight to me. Again, just my opinion. I guess it also boils down to the fact that I don't like matchups that can be automatic losses. I think most matchups should be either neutral or contain a slight or heavy advantage/disadvantage. Of course, it's part of the strategy of the game. But, I'm just not a big fan of Corvus vs Maw type interactions and now KP vs Void. It's made me question whether it makes sense for Void to capitalize on debuffs he himself did not place. That's all.

So your frustration is less about Void and more about Kingpin. It just has to do with Kingpin's abilities and how the developers wanted him to work.

The main premise of his character is that the more debuffs on him, the stronger he gets. By changing his Rage from passive effects to debuffs, you essentially make him better, since you now have more debuffs to work with, thus making it easier to deal more damage. Of course, that then makes him prime prey for Void, but that's how Void works. Yeah, it sucks that he'll be dead within seconds against Void, but is that not the same as a Mystic against Torch? Non-Mutants against a Bleeding Elsa?

"It's made me question whether it makes sense for Void to capitalize on debuffs he himself did not place. That's all."
Why would it not make sense? Also, what would count as a debuff that wouldn't be "placed" by Void? Is a Parry Stun a debuff "placed"? Wouldn't nodes such as LDR or ROF "place" the debuffs on Void's opponents? Wouldn't Biohazard "place" them as well?

Just humor me for a second. Let me now ask you guys what the negative implications would be if all of a sudden Void was changed to only inflict damage on debuffs that either he, a node or his own masteries have placed on the opponent. In other words, if any debuff that his opponent placed on themselves via ability or masteries did not count anymore.

He wouldn't be good against characters like iAbom, or Suicide users.

hungryhungrybbq

Sorry, I think you guys are missing the point. All good though.
I think you are missing the point. Void had been in the game for years countered and beaten multiple times.
Right, missing the point. I don't have trouble fighting Void, at all. I've completed all content and have been playing for 4 years. I'm just saying, in my opinion, some of Void's interactions don't make sense to me. That's it. That's all I'm saying. And as far as the specific interaction KP's buff has.. I'm just saying it seems unfortunate it worked out that way. I'm still going rank and enjoy using KP. It doesn't ruin his buff..by any stretch. It's still a great buff. Definitely just sounds like like folks are misunderstanding that I'm just voicing an opinion. It's not going to affect my success or enjoyment of the game, at all.
What about Void's interactions doesn't make sense?
In my opinion, I think it's weird that a skill champ who has shrugging debuffs as a large part of his kit cannot win a fight against him. It seems like a design oversight to me. Again, just my opinion. I guess it also boils down to the fact that I don't like matchups that can be automatic losses. I think most matchups should be either neutral or contain a slight or heavy advantage/disadvantage. Of course, it's part of the strategy of the game. But, I'm just not a big fan of Corvus vs Maw type interactions and now KP vs Void. It's made me question whether it makes sense for Void to capitalize on debuffs he himself did not place. That's all.
So your frustration is less about Void and more about Kingpin. It just has to do with Kingpin's abilities and how the developers wanted him to work.

The main premise of his character is that the more debuffs on him, the stronger he gets. By changing his Rage from passive effects to debuffs, you essentially make him better, since you now have more debuffs to work with, thus making it easier to deal more damage. Of course, that then makes him prime prey for Void, but that's how Void works. Yeah, it sucks that he'll be dead within seconds against Void, but is that not the same as a Mystic against Torch? Non-Mutants against a Bleeding Elsa?

"It's made me question whether it makes sense for Void to capitalize on debuffs he himself did not place. That's all."
Why would it not make sense? Also, what would count as a debuff that wouldn't be "placed" by Void? Is a Parry Stun a debuff "placed"? Wouldn't nodes such as LDR or ROF "place" the debuffs on Void's opponents? Wouldn't Biohazard "place" them as well?

My latest message addresses those questions?

hungryhungrybbq

Sorry, I think you guys are missing the point. All good though.
I think you are missing the point. Void had been in the game for years countered and beaten multiple times.
Right, missing the point. I don't have trouble fighting Void, at all. I've completed all content and have been playing for 4 years. I'm just saying, in my opinion, some of Void's interactions don't make sense to me. That's it. That's all I'm saying. And as far as the specific interaction KP's buff has.. I'm just saying it seems unfortunate it worked out that way. I'm still going rank and enjoy using KP. It doesn't ruin his buff..by any stretch. It's still a great buff. Definitely just sounds like like folks are misunderstanding that I'm just voicing an opinion. It's not going to affect my success or enjoyment of the game, at all.
What about Void's interactions doesn't make sense?
In my opinion, I think it's weird that a skill champ who has shrugging debuffs as a large part of his kit cannot win a fight against him. It seems like a design oversight to me. Again, just my opinion. I guess it also boils down to the fact that I don't like matchups that can be automatic losses. I think most matchups should be either neutral or contain a slight or heavy advantage/disadvantage. Of course, it's part of the strategy of the game. But, I'm just not a big fan of Corvus vs Maw type interactions and now KP vs Void. It's made me question whether it makes sense for Void to capitalize on debuffs he himself did not place. That's all.
So your frustration is less about Void and more about Kingpin. It just has to do with Kingpin's abilities and how the developers wanted him to work.

The main premise of his character is that the more debuffs on him, the stronger he gets. By changing his Rage from passive effects to debuffs, you essentially make him better, since you now have more debuffs to work with, thus making it easier to deal more damage. Of course, that then makes him prime prey for Void, but that's how Void works. Yeah, it sucks that he'll be dead within seconds against Void, but is that not the same as a Mystic against Torch? Non-Mutants against a Bleeding Elsa?

"It's made me question whether it makes sense for Void to capitalize on debuffs he himself did not place. That's all."
Why would it not make sense? Also, what would count as a debuff that wouldn't be "placed" by Void? Is a Parry Stun a debuff "placed"? Wouldn't nodes such as LDR or ROF "place" the debuffs on Void's opponents? Wouldn't Biohazard "place" them as well?

No, I do think I view it more as a Void design issue vs a KP design issue. I think Void's design has the potential for unintended consequences. Maybe I'm wrong. As I said, just an opinion. Do we know whether Ghost or Quake were originally intended to do what they do? No idea. But, most people enjoy using them. I'm one of them. If we're saying that this interaction with KP and Void was intended. Maybe even as a check or a balance. Fair enough. I'll accept it. 👍

hungryhungrybbq

Just humor me for a second. Let me now ask you guys what the negative implications would be if all of a sudden Void was changed to only inflict damage on debuffs that either he, a node or his own masteries have placed on the opponent. In other words, if any debuff that his opponent placed on themselves via ability or masteries did not count anymore.
He wouldn't be good against characters like iAbom, or Suicide users.

Are suicides users a category of "things a counter is needed for"? 😂 Why does he need to be good against suicide users? Also, he can still place debuffs in both of these scenarios via his own abilities, masteries or nodes. Why is he no longer "good" against them? I'd argue it's more.. he can no longer crush them with no effort. But he can still be good against them. It's just not an automatic win anymore.

shadow_lurker22

Just humor me for a second. Let me now ask you guys what the negative implications would be if all of a sudden Void was changed to only inflict damage on debuffs that either he, a node or his own masteries have placed on the opponent. In other words, if any debuff that his opponent placed on themselves via ability or masteries did not count anymore.
He wouldn't be good against characters like iAbom, or Suicide users.
Are suicides users a category of "things a counter is needed for"? 😂 Why does he need to be good against suicide users? Also, he can still place debuffs in both of these scenarios via his own abilities, masteries or nodes. Why is he no longer "good" against them?

You ever done Alliance War?

hungryhungrybbq

Just humor me for a second. Let me now ask you guys what the negative implications would be if all of a sudden Void was changed to only inflict damage on debuffs that either he, a node or his own masteries have placed on the opponent. In other words, if any debuff that his opponent placed on themselves via ability or masteries did not count anymore.
He wouldn't be good against characters like iAbom, or Suicide users.
Are suicides users a category of "things a counter is needed for"? 😂 Why does he need to be good against suicide users? Also, he can still place debuffs in both of these scenarios via his own abilities, masteries or nodes. Why is he no longer "good" against them?
You ever done Alliance War?

Yes, I have. Check my profile and war mvp stats if you wish. It's nearly 300. So yes, I've been playing war since the original map, before seasons was introduced. Any other relevant questions?

Just humor me for a second. Let me now ask you guys what the negative implications would be if all of a sudden Void was changed to only inflict damage on debuffs that either he, a node or his own masteries have placed on the opponent. In other words, if any debuff that his opponent placed on themselves via ability or masteries did not count anymore.
He wouldn't be good against characters like iAbom, or Suicide users.
Are suicides users a category of "things a counter is needed for"? 😂 Why does he need to be good against suicide users? Also, he can still place debuffs in both of these scenarios via his own abilities, masteries or nodes. Why is he no longer "good" against them?
You ever done Alliance War?
Yes, I have. Check my profile and war mvp stats if you wish. It's nearly 300. So yes, I've been playing war since the original map, before seasons was introduced. Any other relevant questions?

So why make him worse against Suicide users?

hungryhungrybbq

Just humor me for a second. Let me now ask you guys what the negative implications would be if all of a sudden Void was changed to only inflict damage on debuffs that either he, a node or his own masteries have placed on the opponent. In other words, if any debuff that his opponent placed on themselves via ability or masteries did not count anymore.
He wouldn't be good against characters like iAbom, or Suicide users.
Are suicides users a category of "things a counter is needed for"? 😂 Why does he need to be good against suicide users? Also, he can still place debuffs in both of these scenarios via his own abilities, masteries or nodes. Why is he no longer "good" against them?
You ever done Alliance War?
Yes, I have. Check my profile and war mvp stats if you wish. It's nearly 300. So yes, I've been playing war since the original map, before seasons was introduced. Any other relevant questions?
So why make him worse against Suicide users?

In my opinion, he would still be a good defender in the right situation. Whether someone is a good defender shouldn't rely on an ability to punish a player's mastery choices. But yes, it would now mean has to be more intelligently placed because he no longer receives an automatic win against suicide users. He now has to actually earn his win in this type of match. Hardly a reason to stop us from changing his design, if I'm honest.

Just humor me for a second. Let me now ask you guys what the negative implications would be if all of a sudden Void was changed to only inflict damage on debuffs that either he, a node or his own masteries have placed on the opponent. In other words, if any debuff that his opponent placed on themselves via ability or masteries did not count anymore.
He wouldn't be good against characters like iAbom, or Suicide users.
Are suicides users a category of "things a counter is needed for"? 😂 Why does he need to be good against suicide users? Also, he can still place debuffs in both of these scenarios via his own abilities, masteries or nodes. Why is he no longer "good" against them?
You ever done Alliance War?
Yes, I have. Check my profile and war mvp stats if you wish. It's nearly 300. So yes, I've been playing war since the original map, before seasons was introduced. Any other relevant questions?
So why make him worse against Suicide users?
In my opinion, he would still be a good defender in the right situation. Whether someone is a good defender shouldn't rely on an ability to punish a player's mastery choices. But yes, it would now mean has to be more intelligently placed because he no longer receives an automatic win against suicide users. He now has to actually earn his win in this type of match. Hardly a reason to stop us from changing his design, if I'm honest.

I just don't get what your main gripe with Void's mechanic is. Is it that he makes matchups too easy? The same could be said with other characters. Is it because he has the potential of auto-killing other matchups? The same could be said with other characters. So why change him?

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