Champions who punish Nullify: has Kabam got it right?

MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 4,113 ★★★★★
With the release of Mister Negative, Kabam have introduced a new champion who punishes abilities like Nullify and Stagger. That's fine - I like the idea, as a concept. However, personally I'm unhappy about the fact that it triggers even if there's no buff present to Nullify. It also seems that unusual champs with 'limited' Nullify abilities (several being non-Mystic) are being penalised whilst fighting him.

Let's take a quick look at Captain America Infinity War fighting Mister Negative in the new EQ. It's a fairly one-sided fight...


Mister Negative isn't unique here, by the way. This type of issue actually already applied to Annihilus (who sacrifices his Cosmic Control Rod for three strong Fury effects to protect himself from Nullify); but now also applies to Mister Negative, who is even nastier. As he inflicts direct damage whenever he's affected by Nullify, I imagine fighting him with Clare Voyant or Dr Strange isn't fun! But at least that's in line with Class Advantage.

However, Mister Negative's Sig ability (and Annihilus's It's Miiine!!! ability) are being triggered by Nullify abilities that shouldn't even be in action; and in some cases aren't even described as a Nullify. A surprising number of champs with limited or situational Nullify are Science or Cosmic:
  • Captain America Infinity War (nullifies Unstoppable when he's kinetically charged. This is a 'limited' Nullify: it shouldn't trigger against any other buff...)
  • Thing (nullifies Unstoppable with Stopping Power during/after Specials. This is a 'limited' Nullify: it shouldn't trigger against any other buff...)
  • Iron Fist (Heavy Attacks have a 'limited' Nullify only working against Fury/Cruelty/Precision buffs. It shouldn't trigger against any other buff...)
  • Ms Marvel (Nullifies buffs with Special Attacks, but only when she's got 2+ Fury effects. Occurs on most, but not all Special attacks)
  • Venom (SP1 Nullifies buffs, although it's described as stealing them)
  • Venompool (SP1 Nullifies buffs, although it's described as stealing them)
Note: Actually stealing buffs, with Loki, doesn't seem to qualify as a Nullify - it's different. Or at least it was when I tested all these champs against buffed Civil Warrior. So Venom/Venompool are described as Stealing buffs, but the game effect actually works as a Nullify: Loki can steal CW's Armour buffs, but the symbiotes can't.

So if the Attacker can only ever Nullify buffs A, B and C; whilst the defender can never proc buffs A, B and C... Is it okay for the defender to punish the Attacker for trying to Nullify a non-existent buff? Or trying to Nullify Buff D, which they would never have been able to Nullify at all?

And surely we need some consistency - is it okay for Loki to be safe 'stealing' Mister Negative's buffs, but for Venom to be punished for trying to do the same thing?

For me, the best comparison is with Domino. When Awakened, she punishes champs when an ability fails 'by chance'. This led to a minor outcry when she was released and fought champions like Archangel. His base chance to Poison when blocking is zero; increasing when the opponent is bleeding. It was considered unfair that Domino's degeneration was triggering when he tried to block her and she wasn't bleeding; since his chance to succeed was zero.

Kabam listened: Domino's ability was tweaked; and doesn't arise if the opponent's Ability chance is zero.

What about Mister Negative, then?
- If he has no buffs to Nullify, is it reasonable for him to punish opponents for trying to Nullify buffs that aren't there?
- Is it reasonable for him to punish opponents whose 'limited' Nullify isn't going to be active against any buffs he might have?

This is an ability Kabam have given variations on, to two champions now: the likelihood is that there will be future champions/nodes who punish you for Nullifying them (eg. an inversion of the 'Shatter' node). I'd love to hear your thoughts about how it's applied to champions with 'limited' Nullify abilities; and for the community to let the mods/design team know them.

Comments

  • NewlinstheoryNewlinstheory Posts: 1,012 ★★★★
    Never known this

    i just went in with Fury or Cable(w/apoc) or she hulk. Definitely just bugged out if thats the case and hope its solved soon
  • World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 2,922 ★★★★★
    But is this working as intended since there’s nothing to nullify or is it a bug ? Kabam hasn’t commented
  • AMS94AMS94 Posts: 926 ★★★★
    Quality post....needs immediate action
    Another issue to be addressed by Kabam is his delirium debuff & it's interaction with Robots & those who have Psychic shielding like Magneto
  • Timone147Timone147 Posts: 1,276 ★★★★
    I was wondering what happened when I tried to use Cap IW. Just used falcon and fury from then on but now it makes sense.

    Was really annoying and confused at what was going on.
  • MrInsanityMrInsanity Posts: 1,539 ★★★★
    edited May 2021
    Well I think it makes sense because the nullify is prevented by his immunity
  • MrInsanityMrInsanity Posts: 1,539 ★★★★

    Where in his abilities does it say they take damage? Can't seem to find it

    It's his Awakened Ability.

    Unawakened, he's just immune to Nullify/Stagger/Fate Seal.

    Awakened, he punishes Nullify with direct damage.

    It doesn't completely protect him against Mystic interference: He's still susceptible to Neutralise, so Tigra is an option if he's put on a nasty node. Or Mephisto.
    Lol thanks I was checking on Aunt Mai, completely forgot about the awakening ability :D
  • LibertyPrimeV1LibertyPrimeV1 Posts: 4,176 ★★★★★
    Wasn't there an Interaction like this when Buffed Falcon was first released?
    Iirc it was something like he'd gain Cruelty Passives when The Enemy's Evade Abilities Failed To Activate At Any Time Even Due To Normal Chance, this caused him to be Super Broken in Labyrinth/Abyss where everyone has a Tiny Evade Chance, which they later changed so he only Gained Cruelty Passives when The Enemy's Evade Abilities Failed to Trigger Due To Ability Accuracy Reduction...

    Could be remembering wrong but I think that was the change, correct me if I'm wrong, anyways it sounds similar to this Interaction where the Ability is counting Any Failed Chance (so Anytime Nullify Doesn't Activate) instead of Failed Chance Due To Another Ability (so Anytime Nullify Doesn't Activate Due To A Buff On The Opponent With Nullify Immunity).
  • Raichu626Raichu626 Posts: 934 ★★★★

    Wasn't there an Interaction like this when Buffed Falcon was first released?
    Iirc it was something like he'd gain Cruelty Passives when The Enemy's Evade Abilities Failed To Activate At Any Time Even Due To Normal Chance, this caused him to be Super Broken in Labyrinth/Abyss where everyone has a Tiny Evade Chance, which they later changed so he only Gained Cruelty Passives when The Enemy's Evade Abilities Failed to Trigger Due To Ability Accuracy Reduction

    Nope, Falcon still works like that
  • LibertyPrimeV1LibertyPrimeV1 Posts: 4,176 ★★★★★
    Raichu626 said:

    Wasn't there an Interaction like this when Buffed Falcon was first released?
    Iirc it was something like he'd gain Cruelty Passives when The Enemy's Evade Abilities Failed To Activate At Any Time Even Due To Normal Chance, this caused him to be Super Broken in Labyrinth/Abyss where everyone has a Tiny Evade Chance, which they later changed so he only Gained Cruelty Passives when The Enemy's Evade Abilities Failed to Trigger Due To Ability Accuracy Reduction

    Nope, Falcon still works like that
    Was the Change specifically to LoL/AoL then? Cause I swear there was some change early after his Buff...
  • MoosetiptronicMoosetiptronic Posts: 1,428 ★★★★
    Great post @Magrailothos , your usual, analytical self!

    Kudos for running though again with thing to show it too.

    @Kabam Miike , @Kabam Zibiit any thoughts? This must be unintended, right?
  • AlexMeyersAlexMeyers Posts: 25
    When Nick fury knocks down opponent in the Steady buildup node in aw he gets unblockable even if there is no debuff
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★

    With the release of Mister Negative, Kabam have introduced a new champion who punishes abilities like Nullify and Stagger...

    This is an ability Kabam have given variations on to two champions now: the likelihood is that there will be future champions/nodes who punish you for Nullifying them...

    Well, that didn't take long...
    MCOC Team said:




    The Overseer

    STRENGTHS:
    • Nullify, Fate Seal and Stagger Immune
    • Not only is he Immune to those effects he also punishes those who attempt to hit him with any of those abilities.
    Signature Ability - Retaliation
    • If an Opponent ability fails due to his personal immunity or reduced Ability Accuracy they take a burst of 938.41 Physical Damage and the Overseer gains one Gamma Power. This Damage scales with Base Attack Only. This effect has a 1 second cooldown.


    🙄🤦‍♂️
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