What is the point of even having this in the game?

Kumkani_The_KingKumkani_The_King Posts: 38
edited July 2021 in General Discussion
What is the point of even having this node in game? Surging vengeance.
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Comments

  • World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 2,851 ★★★★★
    It’s a challenge. Find champs who can tank L3s . Use power control champ or champs with a taunt ability.
  • Kumkani_The_KingKumkani_The_King Posts: 38
    I think I may not have articulated my self well, It doesn't work as intended. This is my third try in that match and gwenpool is not throwing out sp's in the order that the nodes says.
  • Is how the node is set up to be. Don't push her to an sp3 right away without a counter for it, or she will use it
  • ItsDamienItsDamien Posts: 5,112 ★★★★★

    I mean, based on the node description, pushing her to sp3 before she fires off an sp1 or sp2 would mean that she's power locked at 3 bars of power for the rest of the fight. I shouldn't have to find a counter if she's then just going to use her sp3 before using either her sp1 or sp2.

    If she gets to an SP3, she will throw it to restart. Just because you skip an SP2 doesn't mean that the chain won't be restarted. You should always bring a counter.
  • Kumkani_The_KingKumkani_The_King Posts: 38

    I mean, based on the node description, pushing her to sp3 before she fires off an sp1 or sp2 would mean that she's power locked at 3 bars of power for the rest of the fight. I shouldn't have to find a counter if she's then just going to use her sp3 before using either her sp1 or sp2.

    Think of it more as a loop, and that she can only go one way. But she can jump in at any point in the loop.

    1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3

    So you can push her to 2, and she’ll use the second, but after that, she won’t use her first and she will save for her 3rd. Because it only goes left to right.
    So if I pus
    ItsDamien said:

    I mean, based on the node description, pushing her to sp3 before she fires off an sp1 or sp2 would mean that she's power locked at 3 bars of power for the rest of the fight. I shouldn't have to find a counter if she's then just going to use her sp3 before using either her sp1 or sp2.

    If she gets to an SP3, she will throw it to restart. Just because you skip an SP2 doesn't mean that the chain won't be restarted. You should always bring a counter.
    Well... That's technically not consecutive order now is it..? She can basically throw out any sp attack she wants and I only need to be wary of the energize node.
  • UvoginUvogin Posts: 345 ★★★
    edited July 2021

    I mean, based on the node description, pushing her to sp3 before she fires off an sp1 or sp2 would mean that she's power locked at 3 bars of power for the rest of the fight. I shouldn't have to find a counter if she's then just going to use her sp3 before using either her sp1 or sp2.

    Think of it more as a loop, and that she can only go one way. But she can jump in at any point in the loop.

    1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3

    So you can push her to 2, and she’ll use the second, but after that, she won’t use her first and she will save for her 3rd. Because it only goes left to right.
    I'm pretty sure this is not how it works. if you're supposed to bait sp1 and accidentally push her to sp2, she wont throw sp2. You'll have to tank sp3 to reset the cycle.
  • ItsDamienItsDamien Posts: 5,112 ★★★★★

    I mean, based on the node description, pushing her to sp3 before she fires off an sp1 or sp2 would mean that she's power locked at 3 bars of power for the rest of the fight. I shouldn't have to find a counter if she's then just going to use her sp3 before using either her sp1 or sp2.

    Think of it more as a loop, and that she can only go one way. But she can jump in at any point in the loop.

    1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3

    So you can push her to 2, and she’ll use the second, but after that, she won’t use her first and she will save for her 3rd. Because it only goes left to right.
    So if I pus
    ItsDamien said:

    I mean, based on the node description, pushing her to sp3 before she fires off an sp1 or sp2 would mean that she's power locked at 3 bars of power for the rest of the fight. I shouldn't have to find a counter if she's then just going to use her sp3 before using either her sp1 or sp2.

    If she gets to an SP3, she will throw it to restart. Just because you skip an SP2 doesn't mean that the chain won't be restarted. You should always bring a counter.
    Well... That's technically not consecutive order now is it..? She can basically throw out any sp attack she wants and I only need to be wary of the energize node.
    If a consecutive order is broken, then it has to be reset. If the reset line wasn't there, then you might have an argument.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 8,299 ★★★★★
    Uvogin said:

    I mean, based on the node description, pushing her to sp3 before she fires off an sp1 or sp2 would mean that she's power locked at 3 bars of power for the rest of the fight. I shouldn't have to find a counter if she's then just going to use her sp3 before using either her sp1 or sp2.

    Think of it more as a loop, and that she can only go one way. But she can jump in at any point in the loop.

    1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3

    So you can push her to 2, and she’ll use the second, but after that, she won’t use her first and she will save for her 3rd. Because it only goes left to right.
    I'm pretty sure this is not how it works. if you're supposed to bait sp1 and accidentally push her to sp2, she wont throw sp2. You'll have to tank sp3 to reset the cycle.
    Yeah you’re absolutely right, I just went and tested it. Thanks :)
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 8,299 ★★★★★
    Haji_Saab said:

    It's basically a less punishing all-or-nothing node. That's how you should think about countering it.

    Yeah it’s an all or nothing node that you can use 3 bars worth of power to get your power control ready for
  • raviXsharmaraviXsharma Posts: 233 ★★

    I mean, based on the node description, pushing her to sp3 before she fires off an sp1 or sp2 would mean that she's power locked at 3 bars of power for the rest of the fight. I shouldn't have to find a counter if she's then just going to use her sp3 before using either her sp1 or sp2.

    I really worry about how you read nodes in quests, AQ, AW
  • GiuliameijGiuliameij Posts: 1,489 ★★★★
    It is in the wording. The node never states she MUST begin with an sp1. Just that she will use a certain special after firing one.
    The first line just clarifies in what order the specials are fired after a special is fired.
    For example. After the first sp 3, she will not throw another special 2 or 3. Only a special 1.
  • IKONIKON Posts: 1,272 ★★★★★
    It's ambiguous wording, but I don't know you can make it any clearer in the space a node description provides.
  • It is in the wording. The node never states she MUST begin with an sp1. Just that she will use a certain special after firing one.
    The first line just clarifies in what order the specials are fired after a special is fired.
    For example. After the first sp 3, she will not throw another special 2 or 3. Only a special 1.

    Actually the “from 1 to 3” does imply that it would begin with 1.

    And if taking your argument as true (can begin with any SP point, but then must follow exactly in sequence from then on out), then the same initial condition as OP mentioned would be in play again for the 2nd cycle. That being after an initial “pushed-to-SP3”, if you then push past SP1 afterwards again without her getting a chance to fire it, she would (according to above) then be forever locked out after that from doing any SP.

    ———
    The “well, I missed out on what I was scheduled to do, so at SP3 I get to use it anyways” does seem logically the right thing for defender to be able to do.

    But I also think that ANY SP after a missed one would be able to fire as well. (pushed past SP1, so defender, no longer having SP1 as an option, would be able to do either SP2 or SP3, because they are past the point of needing to wait to do their SP1). *Not sure it actually works like that though.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 8,299 ★★★★★
    IKON said:

    It's ambiguous wording, but I don't know you can make it any clearer in the space a node description provides.

    I think it could definitely be updated to reflect what actually occurs. I’ve seen this particular complaint come up a few times on the forum and I don’t think it’s all that unfair. What happened isn’t necessarily what is said in the description. Consecutively implies that it is one after another without interruption. So it’s logical to say if the first isn’t thrown, then the next cannot be, hence interrupting the chain.

    A description more like the one below is pretty easy to fit.

    This defender used special attacks in order from 1 to 3, using SP3 regardless of the order and restarting after.

  • DrenlinDrenlin Posts: 719 ★★★
    Aren’t the defenders able to throw S1s even if they have 2 bars of power? I know it used to be that way previously?
  • Bugmat78Bugmat78 Posts: 1,377 ★★★★
    Drenlin said:

    Aren’t the defenders able to throw S1s even if they have 2 bars of power? I know it used to be that way previously?

    Only in the early acts when they don't have an sp3 ability i think and then it's sp2 first. Like ROL.

    I get what OP is complaining about - first time I met hte node I expected teh same - a pwoe rlock if they missed the sp1 but it's not like that.

    Live (or KO) and learn.
  • ChaosMax1012ChaosMax1012 Posts: 2,661 ★★★★★
    I did it with CGR and tanked 2 sp3s to the face for the carina challenge
  • GiuliameijGiuliameij Posts: 1,489 ★★★★

    It is in the wording. The node never states she MUST begin with an sp1. Just that she will use a certain special after firing one.
    The first line just clarifies in what order the specials are fired after a special is fired.
    For example. After the first sp 3, she will not throw another special 2 or 3. Only a special 1.

    Actually the “from 1 to 3” does imply that it would begin with 1.

    And if taking your argument as true (can begin with any SP point, but then must follow exactly in sequence from then on out), then the same initial condition as OP mentioned would be in play again for the 2nd cycle. That being after an initial “pushed-to-SP3”, if you then push past SP1 afterwards again without her getting a chance to fire it, she would (according to above) then be forever locked out after that from doing any SP.

    ———
    The “well, I missed out on what I was scheduled to do, so at SP3 I get to use it anyways” does seem logically the right thing for defender to be able to do.

    But I also think that ANY SP after a missed one would be able to fire as well. (pushed past SP1, so defender, no longer having SP1 as an option, would be able to do either SP2 or SP3, because they are past the point of needing to wait to do their SP1). *Not sure it actually works like that though.
    That is a pretty good point, and I guess you are right. However the 'from 1 to 3' simply states it is the order of counting up, instead of from 3 down to 1. That is the only true (logical) thing that states.

    However, I do think the node should be worded differently into. More likely too.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 14,900 Guardian
    To understand that node you have to understand the idea that the AI has preferences when using attacks, including specials. Just like "100%" doesn't always mean "always" in the game because other things in the game can alter that number, what's actually happening (and what the node should probably state) is that Gwenpool with that node *prefers* to launch specials in that order. However, the node doesn't alter the fundamental mechanics of specials, namely that when you have X bars of power the only special you can use, outside of special mechanics, is that specific special.

    So Gwenpool starts off preferring to use SP1. But if you push her to two bars of power she can't. She will still prefer to, and will be highly unlikely to throw SP2. Eventually when you push her to three bars of power she will still prefer to throw SP1 but still can't, but eventually she will give up and throw SP3. The preferences that the Surging Vengeance node applies aren't absolute, so eventually she will throw whatever special she can throw, which is very likely to be SP3 if you push her past her preferred special attack.
  • DNA3000 said:

    To understand that node you have to understand the idea that the AI has preferences when using attacks, including specials. Just like "100%" doesn't always mean "always" in the game because other things in the game can alter that number, what's actually happening (and what the node should probably state) is that Gwenpool with that node *prefers* to launch specials in that order. However, the node doesn't alter the fundamental mechanics of specials, namely that when you have X bars of power the only special you can use, outside of special mechanics, is that specific special.

    So Gwenpool starts off preferring to use SP1. But if you push her to two bars of power she can't. She will still prefer to, and will be highly unlikely to throw SP2. Eventually when you push her to three bars of power she will still prefer to throw SP1 but still can't, but eventually she will give up and throw SP3. The preferences that the Surging Vengeance node applies aren't absolute, so eventually she will throw whatever special she can throw, which is very likely to be SP3 if you push her past her preferred special attack.

    Nice insight, and more aptly applies to how those AQ nodes are now worded (“bias or preference toward either SP1 or SP2”, depending if that is the SP1 node or the SP2 node, and not quoting verbatim but that's the general wording now).
    As opposed to how those AQ SP 1/2 nodes used to be worded, which back then made it seem like it was an absolute, instead of what they would “prefer” to do.

    If this Surging Vengeance node is as old as back when they changed AQ wording, they probably missed rewording this one to something similar.
    If it is a newer node since when AQ changed, they should have probably known that it was bad wording right from the start and worded it differently when they created it.
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