Why doesnt Falcon‘s redwing shut down Spider man evade

StarkyTone

In the new side quest, the spidey boss still evades when Falcon locks on. Why?

Comments

Fit_Fun9329

Enhanced abilities by 20% right ?

magnus_xix

Enhanced abilities

GrandOldKai

Because his ability accuracy somehow gets pushed above 100% by the Enhanced Abilities node.

Eb0ny-O-M4w

Enhanced ability accuracy. Falcon only reduces 100% of it

BitterSteel

Falcon’s ability only reduces by -100% flat. The flat is the important part, it’s not 100% of the ability, it’s -100% from it.

So when a champion has enhanced abilities with 20% increased ability accuracy, falcon can’t reduce it to a 0% chance, due to the way the game calculates percentage chances.

theMercenary

i’ll never understand this… this is working as intended but slow debuff is still bypassing enhanced abilities or ghost bypasses any enhanced evasion.

TheBair123

i’ll never understand this… this is working as intended but slow debuff is still bypassing enhanced abilities or ghost bypasses any enhanced evasion.

Slow is a lot different. It makes it so that the enemy just can’t evade

Rohit_316

Many things don't make sense in the game . Falcon reduces defensive AAR by 100% , but somehow the nodes take it to above 100% so Falcon fails.

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SwarmOfRavens

Many things don't make sense in the game . Falcon reduces defensive AAR by 100% , but somehow the nodes take it to above 100% so Falcon fails.

How doesn't that make sense...

BitterSteel

i’ll never understand this… this is working as intended but slow debuff is still bypassing enhanced abilities or ghost bypasses any enhanced evasion.

So I’m not sure about ghost, but Slow works in two ways

1) it stops the buff/ability from triggering. This is a -100% ability accuracy

2) it stops the ability from having any effect (opponent can’t evade or be unstoppable, as in ignore the impact of a hit). This is a simple on off switch, outside of any ability accuracy reduction.

The first point means that if you have slow applied when the opponent triggers unstoppable it reduces the ability accuracy of that unstoppable and it won’t trigger. But this also means that if the opponent has enhanced abilities then the buff itself can still trigger.

However, this is when the second point kicks in. The effect of the buff is cancelled out by slow, whether or not the opponent has enhanced ability accuracy or not. This means that if an opponent is already unstoppable you can still slow them.

Imagine if only point one was in effect and slow only stopped unstoppable buffs from triggering, you wouldn’t be able to slow someone while they’re unstoppable, because you can’t stop a buff after it’s triggered. So slow has to cancel the effect of the unstoppable too.

So an enemy with enhanced abilities, can still trigger the buff because they ignore the reduction of the first point, but because the impact of the attack isn’t ignored when an opponent is unstoppable, that part of the ability isn’t affected by enhanced abilities.

BitterSteel

Many things don't make sense in the game . Falcon reduces defensive AAR by 100% , but somehow the nodes take it to above 100% so Falcon fails.

None enhanced abilities

100-100 = 0

Enhanced abilities

120-100 =/= 0

AzKicker316

Once I saw this, I just switched to using Venom.

slayer6

It won’t work because kabam nodes over ride any abilities by our attackers, units and $ are king lol

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Championcritic

just take percentage based calculations in this game as + or - a number rather than applying the percentage by multiplying it as per normal.

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SirGamesBond

i’ll never understand this… this is working as intended but slow debuff is still bypassing enhanced abilities or ghost bypasses any enhanced evasion.
Slow is a lot different. It makes it so that the enemy just can’t evade
Ghost on the other hand is a different ability that just prevents it completely

Labyrinth and abyss sends hello

SwarmOfRavens

Many things don't make sense in the game . Falcon reduces defensive AAR by 100% , but somehow the nodes take it to above 100% so Falcon fails.
How doesn't that make sense...
Because even if you make someone 120% accurate, 100% of that is -120%.

Except falcons ability works as a flat reduction so it's -100%.

DNA3000

Many things don't make sense in the game . Falcon reduces defensive AAR by 100% , but somehow the nodes take it to above 100% so Falcon fails.
How doesn't that make sense...
Because even if you make someone 120% accurate, 100% of that is -120%.

Kabam, like pretty much everyone that isn’t rigorous with descriptions, uses the percent sign to mean two different things: percent and percentage points. However, those that think -100% “obviously” means “reduce to zero” in this context display an equal amount of ignorance. If I have 100 apples and I want to reduce that by 100, I can subtract 100 apples. If I have 100 percent of accuracy and I want to reduce that value by 100, what should I subtract by? 100 what?

In this context, there’s two potential meanings for the percent sign: as a (pseudo) unit, and as a multiplicative ratio. The only logical conclusion is that ambiguity must be resolved in context. Someone who doesn’t recognize there’s any ambiguity at all gets an F in basic math.

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Ercarret

I feel like this is most likely a result of the game having been out for so long that Kabam needs to be..."creative" in their solutions to abilities that work 100% of the time. Having a node that gives defenders the ability to trigger stuff despite having an attacker that reduces that chance fully isn't especially weird in and of itself. However, when you say that an attacker has the ability to counter a defender's abilities "to a 100% degree", and then just increase the defender's ability accuracy to 120%, that's just evidence of Kabam having exhausted the 0-100% range of abilities and saying that they need to go beyond it somehow, some way. I dislike that usage of percentages and evidently, as we see in this thread, it leads to confusion among players.

It's also worth noting that Spider-Man doesn't have a base 100% chance to evade attacks, he has about a 30% chance at max sig. So wouldn't the extra 50% from the node land him at around 80% chance, which Falcon would still counter fully?

BitterSteel

Reducing something by 100% isn't ambitious and takes no context. UNLESS you're bad at math and a programmer, or bad at describing whats happening.

My guy he’s saying that if Kabam say it’s not bugged, and they say that it works as a flat percentage, and if in practice you see with your own eyes that someone can evade falcon with enhanced ability accuracy and if you know logically, that 120 - 100 is not 0, then continuing to blindly say that MinUs 100 pErCenT oF 120 iS sTiLL ZeRo is absolutely illogical.

It is absolutely possible and within the confines of reality to use percentage as a flat number, or as a pseudo unit as DNA pointed out. So you saying, no it’s not logical, also I don’t believe Kabam when they say it’s not bugged, and also that 120-100 not being 0 doesn’t make sense is pretty much ignoring the context that DNA is referring to.

Nobody is saying that 100% of 120 isn’t 120. We’re saying, in this context, it’s not being used in that way. You can accept that, or continue grumbling any time you use falcon.

BitterSteel

If anyone is more interested in the topic, there was a really informative thread where @DNA3000 wrote up a longer (shock) explanation involving the numbers and what happens.

It’s about a Night crawler on enhanced ability node.

Here’s the link if you want to read the whole thread:
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/1625156#Comment_1625156

Here’s the comment if you don’t:
“Ability Accuracy is an actual stat, think of it like attack or critical rating. For discussion purposes (the technical details are a bit different) think of it as a base 100%. Nightcrawler has an evade ability that gives him a 22% chance to evade. In fact, the actual chance to activate that ability is the ability's intrinsic ability accuracy multiplied by the champion's ability accuracy stat. By default that's 100%, so the evade chance is 22% x 100% = 22%.

When Falcon locks on, his attacks reduce ability accuracy by 100%. That doesn't touch Nightcrawler's evade ability, it reduces Nightcrawler's ability accuracy stat. So NC goes from 100% AA to 100%-100% = 0% AA (for defensive abilities, which I'm simplifying here for discussion purposes). This should completely shut down his evade, because 22% x 0% = 0%. However, the node NC sits on here has a +20% ability accuracy buff. Now, NC's ability accuracy when Falcon attacks is 100% + 20% - 100% = 20%. His chance to Evade is now 22% x 20% = 4.4%. Low, but not zero.

On top of that, NC's chance to evade attacks increases by 15% when attacks deal physical damage, which I believe (but I'm not 100% certain) means his evade ability accuracy is 37%. Which would make his actual chance to evade here now 37% x 20% = 7.4%.

Finally, after NC uses SP1 his chance to evade increases by 33%. Again, I'm not absolutely certain about this one but I believe this implies his evade ability accuracy increases to 22% + 15% + 37% = 74% against physical attacks after SP1. This means his chance to activate an evade in this situation would now be 74% x 20% = 14.8%.

There's actually been a loading screen message that explains (or at least mentions) how ability accuracy works going back years, but I suspect no one reads those. Also, if you don't believe loading screens, Longshot's design also highlights how ability accuracy works. He doesn't have 100% base ability accuracy, he has 300% base ability accuracy. So when he has, say, a 51% chance to gain Good Karma, that's actually an intrinsic 17% chance to gain Good Karma multiplied by his base 300% ability accuracy to get 51% (that's almost certainly why this chance appears to be a weird number: it isn't weird when you consider Longshot's base 300% AA). If you debuff Longshot's AA by -100%, it doesn't shut him down, it just reduces his AA stat from 300% to 200%, and his chance to gain Good Karma would drop from 51% to 34%. It is almost as if Longshot "resists" ability accuracy debuffs, which was the intent of his design”

Ercarret

@BitterSteel Do I understand the math correctly if I assume that leaves Spidey with a 15% evade chance even with lock-on active? (For the sake of simplicity, I'll say he has a 30% chance when it's really 28,7% or something.)

100% base + 50% from the node - 100% from lock-on = 50% (0,5).

0.5 x 0.3 (30%) evade chance = 0,15 = 15% remaining evade chance while locked-on?

I think my main problem with this is that it's a lot of math in order to understand if a champ is useful. I also think that it's a valid assumption that -100% ability accuracy would mean that that ability has absolutely no chance of activating under any circumstances. I understand the line of thinking that leads it to not be and I won't argue against its logic, but there's still something deep in my core that retches against the idea that [something]-100% is anything but 0.

If we still have to discuss how it works on the forum 7 years into the game's life, and whip out calculators to find out exactly how much of a chance a 100% reduction to that chance leaves us with, it all just seems like a rather inelegant solution to me.

Darkknight_94

Prof-x works just fine!

BitterSteel

@BitterSteel Do I understand the math correctly if I assume that leaves Spidey with a 15% evade chance even with lock-on active? (For the sake of simplicity, I'll say he has a 30% chance when it's really 28,7% or something.)

100% base + 50% from the node - 100% from lock-on = 50% (0,5).

0.5 x 0.3 (30%) evade chance = 0,15 = 15% remaining evade chance while locked-on?

I think my main problem with this is that it's a lot of math in order to understand if a champ is useful. I also think that it's a valid assumption that -100% ability accuracy would mean that that ability has absolutely no chance of activating under any circumstances. I understand the line of thinking that leads it to not be and I won't argue against its logic, but there's still something deep in my core that retches against the idea that [something]-100% is anything but 0.

If we still have to discuss how it works on the forum 7 years into the game's life, and whip out calculators to find out exactly how much of a chance a 100% reduction to that chance leaves us with, it all just seems like a rather inelegant solution to me.

I mean you say that's a lot of maths, but it's what, 150 - 100, and then 50 * the chance for the ability to trigger?

It's not exactly complex. And when you take it a step further and say, well any time I see the enhanced ability node and I’m using falcon, all I need to do is take whatever number it enhances by (20%, 25%, 50% etc) and multiply it by the chance of the ability, that's literally one calculation. I see a 50% node enhancement and I think oh, he's got an extra 50% ability accuracy, so falcon has to deal with half the chance of an evader.

Yes it's a valid assumption, but based on what actually happens and based on what Kabam have told us that assumption proves wrong. And it still makes sense when you consider ability accuracy a stat, and not some wishy-washy concept. A stat is increased by + or - X in this context. And it comes in handy for players sometimes with Longshot, who can increase his ability accuracy stat to 300%, meaning nodes and hacks in incursions trigger much more often.

You can feel however you like about it, and if you dislike the idea that 150% - 100% can = 50%, then I guess I can't change your mind about it. But try to think it less that you are taking an evasion chance and reducing it by 100%, and more that you're taking their ability accuracy stat and reducing it by 100. If their stat is above 100, then they clearly have a chance to trigger that ability.

The last thing I would say is another way to explain it is that if spider-man has 25% chance to evade, falcon can reduce that by 100% of that 25%, which is... 25%. But when he get's enhanced ability accuracy, he now has an extra 50% chance, so 37.5% chance to evade now. But falcon can only reduce the chance by his original amount defined in his abilities, 100% of the 25%. Think of it like a base ability accuracy, falcon can't reduce further than that base value, he can't do 150% reduction. So that 37.5% chance to evade, minus the 25% value comes to 12.5% chance to evade, in other words, 50% of the original chance to evade. This is extra maths, and not needed for when you come across it in day to day content. Just consider that enhanced ability nodes increase their ability accuracy stat, and falcon can't reduce more than their base ability.

Lvernon15

i’ll never understand this… this is working as intended but slow debuff is still bypassing enhanced abilities or ghost bypasses any enhanced evasion.

Ghost isn’t aar it’s just flat out evade counter, slow is definitely a bit ambiguous

BitterSteel

i’ll never understand this… this is working as intended but slow debuff is still bypassing enhanced abilities or ghost bypasses any enhanced evasion.
Ghost isn’t aar it’s just flat out evade counter, slow is definitely a bit ambiguous

The confusion about ghost is from a few months ago when her description briefly said "While this precision is active, enemy evade abilities suffer -100% flat ability accuracy". Functionally, it didnt act like that, as she could still counter increased ability, but that just furthered the misconception that falcon should counter enhanced ability nodes.

Her description has since been changed back to "opponents cannot trigger their evade abilities"

SpideyFunko

Once I saw this, I just switched to using Venom.

man now I feel really stupid