These Flat Rate Values for Critical Damage and Critical Rate make no sense without reference

HQ101HQ101 Posts: 422 ★★
Not sure why Kabam moved over to Flat Rate values in the first place. Percentages everyone can understand. These Flat Rate values are completely meaningless to any of us without a frame of reference or formula.

Kabam, could you possibly provide the formula, so we can understand how this works?

For example, my R5 level 95 signature Starlord increases his attack by 57.46 with each consecutive hit up to 400 hits. Now, my only frame of reference is the percentage conversion offered for things like Critical Rate and Critical Damage. Which gives me an estimate of 2% roughly. So, on hit 400, his attack should be 800%...I guess??? Its isn't actually adding 57.46 to each attack. This is a value that I suppose represents a percentage??? But, I have no idea what to multiply this number by? Base attack damage? The amount of an average Crit??

Soooo many questions. Soooo little understanding on our part of something very Vital that affects EVERY player.

See what I mean?

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Comments

  • Ground_Round1Ground_Round1 Posts: 959
    uh, yeah, that is the idea...easily manipulated because we don't have a reference point. We could track %'s, but these are flat values are enigmatic.
  • KocheeseKocheese Posts: 391 ★★
    Remember they said that was coming after 12.0 debacle. And nothing
  • HQ101HQ101 Posts: 422 ★★
    I am aware of the conversion tool for percentages when it pertains to Critical Damage or Critical Rate. Thats why I put it in the body of my post.

    But when you see stuff like this...

    Gives 500.12 additional increase in attack
    Gives 1200.89 additional armor break
    Does 2000.45 Energy Damage...

    These numbers are MEANINGLESS without reference.
  • JRock808JRock808 Posts: 1,149 ★★★★
    Attack does not seem to be affected by diminishing returns. It's a number that gets modified. This is why it's one of the best stats to focus on as diminishing returns, and to a lesser extent challenger rating, do not hinder its effectiveness.

    Armor break is going to reduce that base number you see in your character info. The % it translates to will vary on every application based on the current armor rating of the opponent. As a side note, most armor breaks are far more than necessary to reduce a nonbuffed opponents armor to 0. After 12.0 this became useless as you can longer cause armormto drop below zero. It's still effective at countering armor ups, but the exact percentage will be impossible to determine during a fight.

    It would be nice to be able to pause a fight, highlight buffs or champions and get realtime info, but I doubt that is possible in this version of the unity engine,

    Energy damage, and other flat damage values are just what they say and aren't modified, except by resistances or other similar stats that reduce all damage of that type.
  • Stark78AlfaStark78Alfa Posts: 502
    Sometimes, it's not clear... But in this example it is simple:

    Your Star Lord's attack is 1.245. Each hit of the combo meter increases his attack by 57,46, or a bonus of 22.948 in his attack for 400+ hits combo. 1.245 (base attack value) + 22.948 (bonus) = 24.229. No doubt he is good!!
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,339 Guardian
    HQ101 wrote: »
    Not sure why Kabam moved over to Flat Rate values in the first place. Percentages everyone can understand. These Flat Rate values are completely meaningless to any of us without a frame of reference or formula.

    Kabam, could you possibly provide the formula, so we can understand how this works?

    They seem reluctant to do so. However, the formula is known; I've posted it before:

    Percentage = Flat Stat / (Flat Stat + 1500 + CR)

    Where CR is the challenge rating of your current opponent. It is this dependency on your opponent that makes it tricky to equate a flat stat with a percentage. Your opponent's rank changes this slightly.
    For example, my R5 level 95 signature Starlord increases his attack by 57.46 with each consecutive hit up to 400 hits. Now, my only frame of reference is the percentage conversion offered for things like Critical Rate and Critical Damage. Which gives me an estimate of 2% roughly. So, on hit 400, his attack should be 800%...I guess??? Its isn't actually adding 57.46 to each attack. This is a value that I suppose represents a percentage??? But, I have no idea what to multiply this number by? Base attack damage? The amount of an average Crit??

    Attack is not a flat stat in this context. A general rule of thumb is flat stats are the stats currently represented by a (generally relatively large) numeric value that intrinsically ought to be a percentage. Look at the formula above again. Notice it looks like Something/(Something+Something Else). That formula ALWAYS generates numbers between zero and one. That's it. It is used to generate percentages which are also always between zero and one (i.e. 100%).

    Attack is not a flat stat. Health is not a flat stat. The flat stats are basically Critical rating, critical damage rating (hold that thought), block stat, armor, armor penetration, block penetration, and critical resistance. These things are affected by DR. Anything that directly buffs (or debuffs) these things are indirectly affected if they add an additional flat value to these stats. Everything else is unaffected by DR.

    Critical chance is intrinsically a percentage (chance to crit). Armor is a percentage: percent of damage neutralized by the armor. Block proficiency is a percentage: percentage of damage that is blocked when you block. If the stat doesn't make sense for the stat to be a percentage, it isn't affected by DR (because DR would generate nonsensical results). Also, DR only affects stats. Stats are the values that show up under "attributes." If it is not a stat, DR doesn't affect it. For example, Black Widow's percent chance to block defensive triggers is a percentage, but it is not a stat. So DR doesn't affect it. In your example, Star Lord's signature ability adds a certain amount to his attack. Attack is unaffected by DR. So his sig is also unaffected by DR. It just increases his attack value by exactly the amount specified.

    Special case note: critical damage is multiplied by 5. So if the DR formula would translate a critical damage flat stat to, say 60%, that means critical damage is actually 300%.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,339 Guardian
    Morgan wrote: »
    armor break is signed as linear as well, if an opponent has 3000 armor, and gets -3000, he'll go to 0 so won't reduce any dmg. if he gets -3500, he'l lstill go to 0.

    That's not how it works, but boy oh boy this is one of the weirder parts of the mechanics. And for all I know, it got changed again and is now working differently.

    Pre-12.0, Armor breaks were multiplicatively stacked. In other words, three stacks of -100% armor break doubled damage, then doubled again, then doubled again. That would mean you were hitting for 8x damage, which is why Thor was able to hit so ludicrously hard (there's a youtube video somewhere of someone using pre-12 Thor stacking *six* armor breaks and hitting for 64x normal damage).

    In 12.0 they had to change those mechanics to account for flat values, but the problem is that negative numbers make the DR formula cry. It doesn't handle them appropriately. So armor break worked as you describe above, except if the result went negative they used special logic to convert negative numbers to a break value. I believe it was something like [1 + Abs(Armor)/2000]. In other words, at armor break -2000 you'd be doing double damage. At armor break -4000 you'd be doing triple damage and so on.

    And then they changed it again, I think somewhere between 12.0.1 and 13.0. As far as I know, this is currently how it works. Armor and armor break no longer apply against each other. Instead, Armor is calculated as a flat stat and converted into an armor percentage. And Armor break is calculated as a separate flat stat and converted into an armor break percentage. And then the latter is subtracted from the former.

    So if you have, say, 2000 armor (and fighting CR 100 just for the sake of example) you'd have armor percentage of 50%. If someone applied an armor break of 1000 on you, your armor percentage would not be DR(2000-1000) = 33.33%. Instead it would be DR(2000) - DR(1000) = 50% - 33.33% = 16.67%. Net values below zero become damage multipliers. Armor break of 3000 would be DR(2000) - DR(3000) = 50% - 60% = -10%, which would translate into 1.10X damage.

    I believe all "counter-stats" work like this now. Meaning: armor and armor break, block and block penetration, critical chance and critical resistance.
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