This is The Hood all over again... [Guillotine "buff"]
Colonaut123
Member Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
I voted for Guillotine buff, both on the forums and in the arena. I recently pulled a 6* Guillotine. But boy, she is one big disappointment.
I feel like Kabam learned nothing from The Hood debacle. Once again, we have a buff that isn't really a buff, because everything that was good about the champion was taken away to "balance" the changes.
Current Guillotine has per critical hit 50% chance to inflict a bleed debuff dealing 2,680.7 direct damage over 4.50 seconds. New Guillotine has per critical hit 35% (+5% per buff on the opponent) to inflict a bleed debuff dealing 1,734.4 direct damage over 5 seconds. The only reason why the basic bleeds were nerfed, is because she gains one soul per inflicted bleed debuff. Kabam could have chosen to lower the chance of gaining souls, but rather nerfed the basic bleeds.
To compensate (?), you're now required to chain special attacks from a heavy attack, as the heavy attack has this new bleed curse debuff for 10 seconds. This debuff inflicts a bleed debuff causing 2,233.8 direct damage over 5 seconds each time struck with a Special Attack. If my memory serves correctly, the SP1 has two hits and the SP2 three hits. You will lose this damage in any match-up where you can't use a heavy attack.
Her regen is heavily nerfed as well. When awakened and at max sig, current Guillotine has a 10% chance to life steal 55% of damage dealt per 4 souls, with a minimum of 55% under 4 souls.
Basic MLLLM combo has a combined damage of 3,801 (not taking resistances or armor rating into account). Let's do 50 of such combo's, that yields 190,050 damage over 250 hits, or average 760.2 damage per hit.
This doesn't take crits into account. Against challenger rating of 120 (R5 5* or R2 6*), she has a 26% chance to deal a critical hit which modifies the damage by 200%. So of these 250 hits, 65 hits are crits who deal 1,520.4 damage. 185 remaining hits are regular hits. In total, this means 98,826 damage plus 140,637 damage from regular hits, or combined 239,463 damage.
There is a 10% chance to life steal, so 6.5 critical hits have basic damage of 9,882.6 and 18.5 regular hits have 14,063.7 basic damage, or combined 23,946.3. damage. Per stack of 4 souls, you heal 55% of damage dealt, which gives:
For a combined basic damage of 463,389 damage, she heals 2% or 9,267.8 health. That's a fraction of what she has currently! But let's include the bleed damage, 26% critical hit chance times 35% bleed ability accuracy yields 22.75 bleeds. Each bleed deals 1734.4 direct damage, or 39,457.6 damage, of which 2% gives 789.52 health. Okay, the special attacks have potent bleeds as well, but no way will this be enough to compensate.
The life steal after her "buff" is nerfed so deep into the ground even Mole Man can't dig so deep!
Next: the SP3. Current Guillotine consumes all souls, dealing 2% of the opponent's health in direct damage. At 10 souls, this is 20% of the opponent's health, at 20 souls it is 40%. In any match-up with no damage cap, this is by far the strongest SP3 there is. Current Guillotine inflicts a degeneration debuff (a debuff that can fail or get shrugged off), dealing 1,737.4 direct damage over 3 seconds. This debuff has its duration increased by 3 seconds for each soul she has. She has a maximum of 15 souls, so 15 x 1,737.4 = 26,061 direct damage over 48 seconds.
As 15 souls the current SP3 deals 30% of opponent's health as instant damage. In order for the current SP3 to deal the same or less damage as the new SP3, the opponent's health has to be equal or lower than 86,870 health points. In any meaningful content, health pools are much larger than that, and she deals a lot more damage. The fact remains that you need to wait 48 seconds for the same damage, that cannot be altered by AAR or purify ability, while the SP3 is instant and unaffected by AAR.
The SP3 after her "buff" is nerfed so deep into the ground that it reached the depths of Hela's Hell!
But hey, at least the SP1 has an effect now, right? Well, yeah, this new "Pain Link Debuff" has some cool effect you just don't want to use in practice. Sure, you can deal all non-physical damage dealt to you back to the opponent, for a 10 second period, which you will heal back 2% (so still take 98% of the damage). Would you fight with Guillotine with a Biohazard or a Freezer Burn node? No, you will die before you can either launch the SP1, or die shortly after. That some of the damage is dealt back is a small consolation prize.
Besides her spectre debuff, which she already has but is simply doubled in duration at the cost of 10 souls, she has no utility. Sure, the sig is nice (in bleed immune match-ups she has up to 100% chance to deal a rupture debuff instead). Nothing was added that made her a better mystic (no buff control, no power gain), her SP1 is still pretty much useless utility-wise, her SP2 is still highly situational useful and her SP3 has nothing spectacular either.
While improvements in damage are clearly made, Guillotine's basic kit has been nerfed to the ground because of it. Guillotine has been changed into a generic damage-dealing champion with next to no utility or sustainability that doesn't meet the standards of 2021. For a community choice champion, I expected better.
I feel like Kabam learned nothing from The Hood debacle. Once again, we have a buff that isn't really a buff, because everything that was good about the champion was taken away to "balance" the changes.
Current Guillotine has per critical hit 50% chance to inflict a bleed debuff dealing 2,680.7 direct damage over 4.50 seconds. New Guillotine has per critical hit 35% (+5% per buff on the opponent) to inflict a bleed debuff dealing 1,734.4 direct damage over 5 seconds. The only reason why the basic bleeds were nerfed, is because she gains one soul per inflicted bleed debuff. Kabam could have chosen to lower the chance of gaining souls, but rather nerfed the basic bleeds.
To compensate (?), you're now required to chain special attacks from a heavy attack, as the heavy attack has this new bleed curse debuff for 10 seconds. This debuff inflicts a bleed debuff causing 2,233.8 direct damage over 5 seconds each time struck with a Special Attack. If my memory serves correctly, the SP1 has two hits and the SP2 three hits. You will lose this damage in any match-up where you can't use a heavy attack.
Her regen is heavily nerfed as well. When awakened and at max sig, current Guillotine has a 10% chance to life steal 55% of damage dealt per 4 souls, with a minimum of 55% under 4 souls.
Basic MLLLM combo has a combined damage of 3,801 (not taking resistances or armor rating into account). Let's do 50 of such combo's, that yields 190,050 damage over 250 hits, or average 760.2 damage per hit.
This doesn't take crits into account. Against challenger rating of 120 (R5 5* or R2 6*), she has a 26% chance to deal a critical hit which modifies the damage by 200%. So of these 250 hits, 65 hits are crits who deal 1,520.4 damage. 185 remaining hits are regular hits. In total, this means 98,826 damage plus 140,637 damage from regular hits, or combined 239,463 damage.
There is a 10% chance to life steal, so 6.5 critical hits have basic damage of 9,882.6 and 18.5 regular hits have 14,063.7 basic damage, or combined 23,946.3. damage. Per stack of 4 souls, you heal 55% of damage dealt, which gives:
- 4 souls or less: 13,170.465 health
- 8 souls: 26,340.93 health
- 12 souls: 39,511.395 health
- 16 souls: 52,681.86 health
- 20 souls: 65,825.325 health
For a combined basic damage of 463,389 damage, she heals 2% or 9,267.8 health. That's a fraction of what she has currently! But let's include the bleed damage, 26% critical hit chance times 35% bleed ability accuracy yields 22.75 bleeds. Each bleed deals 1734.4 direct damage, or 39,457.6 damage, of which 2% gives 789.52 health. Okay, the special attacks have potent bleeds as well, but no way will this be enough to compensate.
The life steal after her "buff" is nerfed so deep into the ground even Mole Man can't dig so deep!
Next: the SP3. Current Guillotine consumes all souls, dealing 2% of the opponent's health in direct damage. At 10 souls, this is 20% of the opponent's health, at 20 souls it is 40%. In any match-up with no damage cap, this is by far the strongest SP3 there is. Current Guillotine inflicts a degeneration debuff (a debuff that can fail or get shrugged off), dealing 1,737.4 direct damage over 3 seconds. This debuff has its duration increased by 3 seconds for each soul she has. She has a maximum of 15 souls, so 15 x 1,737.4 = 26,061 direct damage over 48 seconds.
As 15 souls the current SP3 deals 30% of opponent's health as instant damage. In order for the current SP3 to deal the same or less damage as the new SP3, the opponent's health has to be equal or lower than 86,870 health points. In any meaningful content, health pools are much larger than that, and she deals a lot more damage. The fact remains that you need to wait 48 seconds for the same damage, that cannot be altered by AAR or purify ability, while the SP3 is instant and unaffected by AAR.
The SP3 after her "buff" is nerfed so deep into the ground that it reached the depths of Hela's Hell!
But hey, at least the SP1 has an effect now, right? Well, yeah, this new "Pain Link Debuff" has some cool effect you just don't want to use in practice. Sure, you can deal all non-physical damage dealt to you back to the opponent, for a 10 second period, which you will heal back 2% (so still take 98% of the damage). Would you fight with Guillotine with a Biohazard or a Freezer Burn node? No, you will die before you can either launch the SP1, or die shortly after. That some of the damage is dealt back is a small consolation prize.
Besides her spectre debuff, which she already has but is simply doubled in duration at the cost of 10 souls, she has no utility. Sure, the sig is nice (in bleed immune match-ups she has up to 100% chance to deal a rupture debuff instead). Nothing was added that made her a better mystic (no buff control, no power gain), her SP1 is still pretty much useless utility-wise, her SP2 is still highly situational useful and her SP3 has nothing spectacular either.
While improvements in damage are clearly made, Guillotine's basic kit has been nerfed to the ground because of it. Guillotine has been changed into a generic damage-dealing champion with next to no utility or sustainability that doesn't meet the standards of 2021. For a community choice champion, I expected better.
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Comments
Looks like.. Adding utility with some damage tuning would have been good enough.. Current buff looks like poor version of BWCV with no utility.
Her pre-buff SP3's percentage-based damage made it very potent when you went up against higher-level opponents, but a static damage number that scales up with level will make the defender's SP3 hit much harder than yours ever will. You could survive a high-soul SP3 hit before since it only shaved off a percentage, but now? I'm not so sure you can. In fact, I'm fairly certain you can't. Maybe the initial hit but not the resultant DOT.
Likewise, her Pain Link sounds like it will only be useful on defense. I have a hard time seeing it used offensively since you will die from whatever damage the opponent deals to you much quicker than they will from the damage you deal back to them. However, a defender, with a much greater health pool, can easily redirect whatever DOT damage they're taking to the attacker without risking dying themselves.
Since the attack is now also unblockable after a while, the chance of you getting hit by it is also increased. To be fair, her specials have never been the most difficult to avoid (unless they've changed her animations but I doubt that given the quick turnaround), but the chance of you dying from a DOT you've placed on a Guillotine is still significantly higher than the chance of you killing your opponent with DOT that they've placed on you.
You'll be a bit scared when it comes to putting DOTs on her when you face her, but not confident about dealing with them when playing as her. Which is an odd design for a buff. It's like the buff pitch meeting was, "Hey, how about we buff the community vote winner in such a way that we piss off existing fans of hers while simultaneously making her a much more annoying defender? Because that'll be met with overwhelming joy and applause, and we'll even have our community name a new holiday in our honor!"
This is just a sideways adjustment like Nova, YJ, DDHK, Terrax, Gamora, etc.
The Hood debacle removed the only useful characteristic of the kit completely.
Guillotine didn’t get anything removed from her kit. They just nerfed her damage and healing upside in favor of consistent healing and damage.
So there is no, “oops, we shouldn’t have done that.” Only, “sorry you don’t like this one.”
I don’t see them readjusting this buff. Just going to have to wait until Guillotine has a kid and passes the sword down again.
So I've been thinking a lot about this. And while yes, her healing is capped to how much health the enemy has, that's not the only metric we can go by. How good Guilly's healing is, is absolutely determined by how good her damage is.
As an example, and I know I'm wildly exaggerating just allow it for the point I make. Imagine Guilly's buff comes out, and she can KO RoL fights in 20 hits. Staggering damage, genuinely incredible. That would mean she heals 11k in 20 hits, and 30 seconds or so. That's an insane heal. Now imagine her buff comes out, and she takes 300 hits to solo RoL fights. That means her heal is awful, 300 hits for 11k health in 3 minutes or so?
Do you see my point? Her heal is based on how fast she can do that damage. Obviously when her buff comes out, she will so RoL fights somewhere in between 20 and 300 hits, and that's how we measure how good her heal will be. If she does it super fast, her heal could be awesome. If she does it super slow, her heal will be bad.
I think amount healed per hits is the best way to compare it, and to compare pre and post buff heal, I took my sig 80 5* rank 3 into RoL, and checked how long it took me to heal from 30% health to 100% health (70% of 16k health is 11k, so equal to how much Guilly will heal after buff from taking the same fight). Over 3 attempts, the average fight took 2 minutes and 120 hits to heal 11k. So after her buff, I will retry the fight, and if she can't get the fight down as a rank 3 in the same amount of time and hits, then her healing is objectively worse in the average situation.
The Hood debacle was basically the same: Kabam took away his fate seal in favour of damage. The two aren't remotely the same.
I do agree Guilly is a massive nerf in terms of what she could do without really adding anything to compensate.
There is no way i prefer her over my mystic powerhorses, she doesnt even take advantage of my MD5 investment. Currently my r5 is quite fun with my MS and g99 teams, but this new version seems to be a hard hitter with nothing else on the table, with a worse regen.
I use the same MLLLM-combo with the same average 760.2 damage per hit. With 26% critical hit chance, roughly 1 in every 4 hits is a crit. So, 3 regular hits and 1 crit gives in total 3,801 damage. With a modest amount of 12 souls, she heals 165% of damage dealt. 10% x 165% x 3,801 damage gives 627,165 health. Old Guillotine requires 17.5 iterations of these 4 hits, or in total 70 hits, to heal on average as much as the new Guillotine. This is a R5 5* at full sig, not a R3 5*.
Let me remind you that the new Guillotine heal is irrespective of the rank or star rating. If you would use a 3*, the life steal over the course of the fight is exactly the same. Only the health pool determines it. The higher the star rating and rank of Guillotine, the more efficient it becomes, as she can take down ROL WS more rapidly with lesser chip damage, but how lesser her relative regeneration, as higher stars and ranks have higher health pools.
Would have found it quite difficult to 'nerf' him
As I said in the post, I went and tested it, it took me an average of 120 hits to get 11k health healed.
And yes, healing is irrespective of rank, but damage isn't as you said. So you're not going to be taking a 3* into 400k health pools and being astounded that she's healed 100% of her health after 400 hits. That's why I said health healed per hit is important. So my Guilly can heal 11k in 120 hits, how fast does Guilly post buff take down RoL fights to heal that much health? That's the question, and we can't possibly know that until the buff goes live.
Quite a change from 3-4 buffs where they all were at least better than before.
Guillotine... I liked her for her uses and now I won't use her at all most likely.
Rank down tickets please?
Let's wait and play her before declaring this a failure. When Corvus was released, most people dismissed him based on his ability description. And they were wrong.
However I'd really love to try her out before judging her. Maybe even w the lower numbers and 1-2 synergies she is really good, idk
When Old and New Guilly fight a target, say one with 100,000 health, we know that New Guilly will recovery 2000 points of health. Ignoring opponent healing, and given Guilly heals from all sources of damage dealt, that's very straight forward. Old Guilly is more complex because her life steal only heals from her own hits, not from other sources of damage. Also, Guilly's life steal isn't fixed: it depends on signature level. At max sig it is about 5.5% of damage dealt from hits (10% of the time it is a 55% health steal). Is it possible that this 5.5% ends up lower than New Guilly's 2000 health recovered?
Very unlikely. This only happens in this situation if Guilly deals less than 36364 points of damage with her attacks to this target. All of the rest of the damage dealt that kills the target must come from other sources, such as Guilly's bleed. Is *that* possible? Using 5/65 numbers Guilly's attack is 2437 and her bleeds deal 2681 damage per bleed. If we don't even use any special attacks and just hit with normal combos, a five hit MLLLM combo will deal 3777.35 damage. 50% of her crits land bleeds, and her base crit rate is 26%. So about 13% of her attacks land bleeds. This translates statistically to 1742.65 bleed damage per combo. That means old Guilly dealt about one third of her damage through bleeds and about two thirds by actually hitting the target. We'd expect Old Guilly to get about 3630 healing in this fight. To get less than 2000 health recovery in this fight Old Guilly would have had to be dealing the reverse: about two thirds damage from bleeds and one third from strikes. That would require roughly quadrupling her bleed rate somehow. That's unlikely.
It doesn't matter how fast either Old Guilly or New Gully kills. What matters are the damage and heal ratios. I think when you're comparing Old Guilly to New Guilly's kill speed, you're actually inadvertently comparing Old Heal vs New Heal in New Guilly. In other words, given how New Guilly works, which heal would be better *for her*. But that's not a fair comparison, because the question is did Old Guilly's heal get nerfed. It doesn't matter if it got nerfed because of the New Heal's numbers or because of New Guilly's mechanics. If New Guilly heals less *per fight* than Old Guilly, the Guilly's heal was nerfed.
And I'm pretty sure it was. By a ton.
You could argue that I'm comparing New Guilly to Old Guilly at max sig, but that's because it matters what the champion's potential is. But for New Guilly's heal to outperform Old Guilly's heal, Old Guilly's heal would have to drop to somewhere about half its maximum strength or about 2.8% (10% chance for 28%). And that happens at sig 26. Above that sig level, Old Guilly's heal outperforms new Guilly's heal.
*And* I'm not including a factor in Old Guilly's favor. Her health steal is stronger if she has souls. Because Guilly's soul mechanic is complicated, I've only assumed zero souls and the baseline heal. In actual practice, Old Guilly's heal is always at least a little stronger than I've calculated for.
I have no idea why the devs think New Guilly's heal is better. And to be honest, I'm a little mystified by why I've heard so much positive buzz about Guillotine's update. To me, she got more damage but also more one-dimensional, which in modern MCOC terms actually makes her worse overall. Whatever the opposite of future-proofing is, New Guillotine is that. If I pull her as my first 4* or 5* or 6* champ, I'm okay with that because at least she can hit hard. But her actual utility seems worse overall, which means her value as a second pull or third pull or fifty-eighth pull is probably less than her original incarnation. And to me, that's an update failure.
I miss a conservative reflex at Kabam. A lot of champions are not irredeemable that warrant a tabula rasa approach. Don't fix what isn't broken.
With a 10% chance to life steal between 26.5% and 55% of hit damage, that's average 2.65% to 5.5% of hit damage per hit, as a base value.
It's not hard to have at least 8 souls, which doubles it to 5.5% to 10.1%.
In order for new Guillotine 2% to be better, 64% to 80% of the damage shouldn't be hit damage, almost impossible.
Miles buff could have used for additional points like reduce ramp up at base (not synergy), a way to pause his fury, rupture stacking, and shock passive (would have been cool) esp since his most important utility seemed to be invisibilty. Now with true focus, he's useless nobody will use him not even for damage and these extra points may have fixed that.
Gamora, complete useless buff.
Guillotine, definitely a repeat of Hood. I've already said this in a comment on another post.
Thor Rag, maybe the decent havent paid any mind cos I don't him as a 6 and no way am I ranking a 5star at my level that's if I have him.
I'm trying to understand why they're failing with some of these buffs, we're not requesting OP champs we want champs we can have as equal or decent alternatives to what we're constantly seeing. If you want a meta shift, use these buffs to HELP bring that to a reality (in addition to selling new champs). Maybe it doesn't make business sense but I'm putting my money into this game not at this state, I'm not happy with it.
"But Mordius, they have to balance damage and utility! Tradeoffs!" - You haven't been paying attention the last few years if you think this is true. There are a plethora of champs in the game have great damage and great utility. Her damage, even improved, does not warrant reducing or minimizing her utility. She will end up on the pile of unused champs that all have this problem.
Her overall "feel" and damage output will require gameplay to test, but the rest isn't in question. We have the ability data, we have the old guillotine for comparison, and we have years upon years of experience to draw upon when analyzing her new kit. We have a very good idea of where she will land without seeing gameplay.