What do you mean by 100% resistant ?

StellarStellar Posts: 957 ★★★
Silver Surfer is supposed to be 100% to shock damage


But apparently it’s on shock but only some kind of shock…



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Comments

  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 3,349 ★★★★★

    007Bishop said:

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs
    Passives could not be purified but shock damage is shock damage whatever the source

    Take Mephisto, wether the incineration is active or passive, he takes no damage and that’s logic (Nova are not considered as incinerations)


    Though it does make me wonder what a Passive damage over time effect even is - how does one passively shock someone?
    What even is a shock debuff though? How does shock run out? Hiw does it last for certain seconds. How does it last longer when performing some other action?
  • 007Bishop007Bishop Posts: 218 ★★★
    edited July 2022

    007Bishop said:

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs
    Passives could not be purified but shock damage is shock damage whatever the source

    Take Mephisto, wether the incineration is active or passive, he takes no damage and that’s logic (Nova are not considered as incinerations)

    Silver Surfer's abilities state that he is only resistant to shock DEBUFFS. Not Passives. In the case of mephisto's aura, those who are immune to incineration are immune to his aura but those who are only immune to incinerate debuffs are not immune to his aura. For example, Red Hulk is "immune" to incinerate debuffs but still takes damage from Mephisto's aura since it's a passive form of incineration damage
    Red Hulk can eventually get incinerate damage resistance from his sig, but still
    He'll take damage if he isn't awakened or he doesn't have enough charges

    Similarly, Corvus will be damaged by passive effects

    Though it does make me wonder what a Passive damage over time effect even is - how does one passively shock someone?
    A passive DOT effect is any effect that deals damage over time (ticks) and isn't a debuff. EMP Mod node inflicts passive shocks.
  • GamerGamer Posts: 9,126 ★★★★★
    007Bishop said:

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs
    Passives could not be purified but shock damage is shock damage whatever the source

    Take Mephisto, wether the incineration is active or passive, he takes no damage and that’s logic (Nova are not considered as incinerations)

    Silver Surfer's abilities state that he is only resistant to shock DEBUFFS. Not Passives. In the case of mephisto's aura, those who are immune to incineration are immune to his aura but those who are only immune to incinerate debuffs are not immune to his aura. For example, Red Hulk is "immune" to incinerate debuffs but still takes damage from Mephisto's aura since it's a passive form of incineration damage
    Red hulk when awake do’s get immune even Apocalypse getting immune over time against mepthios
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 3,349 ★★★★★

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    Active and passives are not opposites in this game people. An active passive debuff does not violate game logic.
  • 007Bishop007Bishop Posts: 218 ★★★
    edited July 2022

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    Active and passives are not opposites in this game people. An active passive debuff does not violate game logic.
    When you say passive debuff, it is quite literally contradictory. Nowhere in the game does it say passive debuff. Passives and Debuffs are opposites. It is either a "passive shock"/"shock passive" or a "shock debuff" and not "shock passive debuff". I still have no clue how people get confused between these two terminologies.

    Parry stun is a stun DEBUFF. White Mags prefight is a PASSIVE stun. One is affected by Limber, the other is not.
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 3,349 ★★★★★

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    Active and passives are not opposites in this game people. An active passive debuff does not violate game logic.
    An effect is either passive or a debuff I believe. It cannot be both, it’s like saying a coin is heads and tails.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but that was my understanding
    Yes. Effects can be split into debuffs and passives. Whenever one of those is affecting a champ we say it is active. So "a passive aura is active on mephisto" or " a passive bleed is active on punisher "
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 3,349 ★★★★★
    007Bishop said:

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    Active and passives are not opposites in this game people. An active passive debuff does not violate game logic.
    When you say passive debuff, it is quite literally contradictory. Nowhere in the game does it say passive debuff. Passives and Debuffs are opposites. It is either a "passive shock"/"shock passive" or a "shock debuff" and not "shock passive debuff". I still have no clue how people get confused between these two terminologies.

    Parry stun is a stun DEBUFF. White Mags prefight is a PASSIVE stun. One is affected by Limber, the other is not.
    Oops sorry. Got a but too excited
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 3,349 ★★★★★

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    Active and passives are not opposites in this game people. An active passive effect does not violate game logic.
    FIFY
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 8,860 ★★★★★

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    Active and passives are not opposites in this game people. An active passive debuff does not violate game logic.
    An effect is either passive or a debuff I believe. It cannot be both, it’s like saying a coin is heads and tails.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but that was my understanding
    Yes. Effects can be split into debuffs and passives. Whenever one of those is affecting a champ we say it is active. So "a passive aura is active on mephisto" or " a passive bleed is active on punisher "
    Right, but you said “An active passive debuff does not violate game logic” when it really does.
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 3,349 ★★★★★

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    Active and passives are not opposites in this game people. An active passive debuff does not violate game logic.
    An effect is either passive or a debuff I believe. It cannot be both, it’s like saying a coin is heads and tails.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but that was my understanding
    Yes. Effects can be split into debuffs and passives. Whenever one of those is affecting a champ we say it is active. So "a passive aura is active on mephisto" or " a passive bleed is active on punisher "
    Right, but you said “An active passive debuff does not violate game logic” when it really does.
    Yeah. Corrected it. 😬
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 7,128 ★★★★★
    solopolo said:

    We're in 2022 and people still don't understand the difference between buffs, debuffs, and passives.

    New players can start at any time so the year is less surprising than the fact someone has played long enough to have R3 6*s and doesn't understand this yet.
  • Bugmat78Bugmat78 Posts: 1,555 ★★★★
    It's a shame there was no other word easy to use other than "passive" to represent the other state of negative effects in the game (in comparison to debuff).

    In modern language active is always related & compared to passive (as in sentence structure - active vs passive voice), so there will always be some confusion regarding a passive effect that is indeed actively occurring, especially with newer players.
  • World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 3,117 ★★★★★
    edited July 2022
    Separate from the OPs question and misunderstanding of silver surfer abilities, and to further confuse things…….

    there are passive abilities in the game that inflict debuffs. I’ll have to find an example
  • CorkscrewCorkscrew Posts: 378 ★★★

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    It's also not sufficient to say that something is "a passive" to imply that it's a damaging effect that can't be purified or affected.
    i.e. passively unblockable, passively unstoppable are also a thing in this game.

    That's also how the nomenclature has evolved that includes buff and debuff together with active and passive to indicate if something has a positive or negative effect (setting aside "zero" effect buffs and debuffs for the moment).

    I'm not saying the OP is correct in their assessment, just saying that there is some merit to players using qualifying terms to indicate if a passive has good or bad impact.
  • World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 3,117 ★★★★★

    Separate from the OPs question and misunderstanding of silver surfer abilities, and to further confuse things…….

    there are passive abilities in the game that inflict debuffs. I’ll have to find an example

    Cosmic ghost rider has a passive ability that allows him to place an armor break debuff.


  • ReignkingTWReignkingTW Posts: 570 ★★★
    I've been playing this game forever and always thought it was a passive "debuff".
  • MaratoxMaratox Posts: 975 ★★★★
    Corkscrew said:

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    It's also not sufficient to say that something is "a passive" to imply that it's a damaging effect that can't be purified or affected.
    i.e. passively unblockable, passively unstoppable are also a thing in this game.

    That's also how the nomenclature has evolved that includes buff and debuff together with active and passive to indicate if something has a positive or negative effect (setting aside "zero" effect buffs and debuffs for the moment).

    I'm not saying the OP is correct in their assessment, just saying that there is some merit to players using qualifying terms to indicate if a passive has good or bad impact.
    “Passively unblockable” means that there’s no icon to denote it. Bubble shield makes the defender passively unblockable for one hit after you block 10 hits. Unblockable passive comes with an icon of set time. That’s the difference between the two.
  • CorkscrewCorkscrew Posts: 378 ★★★
    Maratox said:

    Corkscrew said:

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    It's also not sufficient to say that something is "a passive" to imply that it's a damaging effect that can't be purified or affected.
    i.e. passively unblockable, passively unstoppable are also a thing in this game.

    That's also how the nomenclature has evolved that includes buff and debuff together with active and passive to indicate if something has a positive or negative effect (setting aside "zero" effect buffs and debuffs for the moment).

    I'm not saying the OP is correct in their assessment, just saying that there is some merit to players using qualifying terms to indicate if a passive has good or bad impact.
    “Passively unblockable” means that there’s no icon to denote it. Bubble shield makes the defender passively unblockable for one hit after you block 10 hits. Unblockable passive comes with an icon of set time. That’s the difference between the two.
    Now we're really into splitting hairs here and being pedantic.
    And you missed the point of what I was saying, but good for you.

    Passively unblockable can also mean being in the act of having an unblockable passive.

    The point I was making which you ignored is that something being "passive" doesn't denote if it's a positive or negative impact. For example, Hulking's buffs get nullified and become passive equivalents. Collectively you could call them "passives", but according to other posters that means they're inflicting damage that can't be shrugged, but that's not what is happening. It's easier to to tell someone they turn into "passive buffs", whether the pedants here like it or not, it's actually much clearer what that means. Just calling something a passive is vague.
  • Eb0ny-O-M4wEb0ny-O-M4w Posts: 12,886 ★★★★★
    Buff: Describes a generally positive effect, usually placed on yourself (there are some exceptions, like Doctor Voodoo's Loas which do not do anything). Buffs have inherent interactions with Nullify, Stagger, and Fate Seal, all of which will remove one or more buffs from their targets (and in Fate Seal's case, prevent further buffs). Buffs are affected by ability accuracy modification.

    Debuff: Describes a generally negative effect, usually placed on your opponent. Debuffs have inherent interactions with Purify, which will remove one or more debuffs from its target. Debuffs are affected by ability accuracy modification.

    Active: Describes an effect that is currently on. This is the only specific gameplay meaning of an active effect. For example, an active Armor Up buff is just any Armor Up buff currently affecting a Champion.

    Passive: Describes an effect that is neither a buff nor a debuff, but could have either a positive or negative effect. Passive effects have no inherent removal mechanic, and so cannot be removed except by specific interactions cited in their descriptions (e.g. Iron Man (Infinity War)'s Armor Up passive is specifically said to be removed by Armor Break). Passive effects are affected by ability accuracy modification.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 15,583 Guardian

    Buff: Describes a generally positive effect, usually placed on yourself (there are some exceptions, like Doctor Voodoo's Loas which do not do anything). Buffs have inherent interactions with Nullify, Stagger, and Fate Seal, all of which will remove one or more buffs from their targets (and in Fate Seal's case, prevent further buffs). Buffs are affected by ability accuracy modification.

    Debuff: Describes a generally negative effect, usually placed on your opponent. Debuffs have inherent interactions with Purify, which will remove one or more debuffs from its target. Debuffs are affected by ability accuracy modification.

    Active: Describes an effect that is currently on. This is the only specific gameplay meaning of an active effect. For example, an active Armor Up buff is just any Armor Up buff currently affecting a Champion.

    Passive: Describes an effect that is neither a buff nor a debuff, but could have either a positive or negative effect. Passive effects have no inherent removal mechanic, and so cannot be removed except by specific interactions cited in their descriptions (e.g. Iron Man (Infinity War)'s Armor Up passive is specifically said to be removed by Armor Break). Passive effects are affected by ability accuracy modification.

    More or less correct. But to amplify and clarify a few points:

    An Effect can be tagged as a Buff, a Debuff, or a Passive effect. These are just labels, like colors. Something can be red or green or blue. Buff, Debuff, and Passive are just colors. And while the game engine theoretically allows the developers to stick these flags on effects however they want to, like Post-it notes, by convention the devs only place one on every effect. So these flags are like radio buttons. There's only one on the effect. So by this convention, anything that is one is not the other two. There are no Passive Debuffs any more than there are any Buff Debuffs. In this context, we usually say that there are three types of effects: Buff, Debuff, and Passive (and this is an oversimplification, because there are effects that are neither Buff nor Debuff nor Passive - some node effects, for example, appear to be none of these).

    Also by convention Buffs are usually positive effects and Debuffs are usually negative effects but this is not enforced by the game and there are exceptions. Loas (Dr. Voodoo) are Buffs with no direct beneficial effect. Rage (Kingpin) is a debuff with no direct beneficial effect.

    Separately, an Ability can be Passive or not Passive. Passive abilities are always on. Not Passive abilities are not always on - they need to be activated somehow. The canonical example is Medusa. Living Strands is a Passive ability. That means this ability is always on. This ability triggers a Fury effect on Medusa every three seconds. This Fury effect is a Buff, not a Passive. Living Strands is a Passive ability that triggers a Buff effect.

    Finally, all effects are either Active or not Active. Active means they are on. Not Active means they are not on. In general, an effect that is "not Active" is essentially not there. So when Living Threads triggers a Fury, that Fury is an active effect. If Medusa hasn't triggered any Furies yet, we say there are no Active Furies on Medusa.

    There are no situational contexts in MCOC where "Active" and "Passive" are opposites. When talking about types of effects, "Passive" has no opposite, any more than Purple has an opposite. It is just one of three tags. When talking about Abilities, the opposite of Passive is "Not Passive." Once again, Passive doesn't really have an opposite in that context: Passive is just one specific kind of Ability. And when talking about the state of an effect, the opposite of Active is "not Active" because Active also doesn't have a real opposite: the opposite of Active in this context is basically "not there."
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 15,583 Guardian
    Maratox said:

    Corkscrew said:

    Stellar said:

    I understand the difference between actives debuffs and passives debuffs

    You don't fully understand it the moment you say it that way.

    Passive debuffs are not a thing in this game.
    It's also not sufficient to say that something is "a passive" to imply that it's a damaging effect that can't be purified or affected.
    i.e. passively unblockable, passively unstoppable are also a thing in this game.

    That's also how the nomenclature has evolved that includes buff and debuff together with active and passive to indicate if something has a positive or negative effect (setting aside "zero" effect buffs and debuffs for the moment).

    I'm not saying the OP is correct in their assessment, just saying that there is some merit to players using qualifying terms to indicate if a passive has good or bad impact.
    “Passively unblockable” means that there’s no icon to denote it. Bubble shield makes the defender passively unblockable for one hit after you block 10 hits. Unblockable passive comes with an icon of set time. That’s the difference between the two.
    The icons are just there to help the players. The game engine does not itself enforce any such rule regarding passive and non-passive effects and this was not dealt in any consistent manner in the past.

    Beyond that, there is no such rule that I'm aware of between "passively unblockable" and "unblockable passive." "Unblockable passive" refers to the passive effect itself. "Passively unblockable" refers to the nature of the effect. But one is a consequence of the other. An unblockable passive makes a champion passively unblockable. That's just a semantic distinction regarding the subject of the phrase in English.

    If a champion is described as "passively unblockable" that means nothing more or less than there exists a passive effect which is conferring the unblockable state upon that champion. If no such effect exists, the champion cannot be "passively unblockable" by definition.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 15,583 Guardian
    Bugmat78 said:

    It's a shame there was no other word easy to use other than "passive" to represent the other state of negative effects in the game (in comparison to debuff).

    In modern language active is always related & compared to passive (as in sentence structure - active vs passive voice), so there will always be some confusion regarding a passive effect that is indeed actively occurring, especially with newer players.

    It is fairly common in game design though, so I'm pretty sure the original game engine designers simply picked up the lingo (at least, this is not the first time I'm encountering the term used in a similar way). Unfortunately, "passive" has technical jargon meaning just like "Buff" and "Debuff" do, and that meaning isn't always perfectly congruent with what people who haven't been exposed to the jargon expect.

    I don't know this for a fact, but my experience with game engines combined with the history of passive effects in this game suggests that the origin of the lingo comes from a fundamental idea that is common to game engines. There are things you want to just be there, and there are things you want to be triggered to happen. The stuff that is always there are passives, while the stuff you want to be triggered to happen are "activated" effects, of which there are the Buffs and Debuffs. Even MCOC uses this terminology when talking about abilities.

    But then all games evolve over time, and try to leverage their capabilities to do more than what they were initially designed to do. Eventually, you decide you want to apply an effect but once it is there it can't be removed. Activated effects have all sorts of ways to create them and then remove them, but passive effects aren't subject to those rules. So you decide to break the convention of passive effects always being there, and start throwing them around. Suddenly so-called passive effects are not just invisible and in the background, but players of your game are actually interacting with them. They become a third kind of player-facing effect, and suddenly you have three: Buff, Debuff, and the other one. It carries the passive tag because of its original design intent, and no one thinks to invent player-facing terminology that is less confusing, and we end up with Passive effects that are not Buffs or Debuffs. Passive gets promoted from invisible effect players shouldn't have to understand or talk about, to very visible effect that needs a name and a set of rules that go along with it.

    Which is more or less exactly how players eventually came to (have to) understand Passive effects.
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