What's your preference of Buff Program?

Kabam recently said that their approach to buffing champions has not changed since the first bout of buffs from Sept 2020 - Dec 2021. I found this an odd statement to hear, because for me, the buffs from March 2022 to present just haven't gotten me as excited, or seemed as if they had the same time, vision or love put into them.

I wanted to make a poll that asked people whether they preferred the first or second bout of buffs, because I'm interested to see whether I'm just stuck in an echo chamber of a few friends not enjoying the program at the moment, or if the forum community at large agrees with me.

While I know they are the same program in Kabam's eyes, I'll be distinguishing between the first round which was Magneto(s) up until Joe Fixit and Hawkeye, and the second which is PsychoMan up until Jane Foster so that the poll can work.

If anyone needs a list to remind themselves here are the first round

Magneto, Magneto House of X, Daredevil NF, Punisher 2099, Falcon, Gambit, YJ, Terrax, Kingpin, Moleman, Civil Warrior, Angela, Hood, Masacre, Howard the Duck, Crossbones, Nova, Black Panther OG, Vulture, Odin (kinda), Mr Fantastic, Ultron, War Machine, Ebony Maw, Diablo, Bishop, Ronin, Hood 2.0, King Groot, Venompool, Miles, Gamora, Thor Rags, Guillotine, Karnak, Nebula, Hawkeye, Joe Fixit

And the second round

Psychoman, Gamora, Yondu, Deadpool XF, Mordo, Storm OG, Jane Foster

If you think the first round was better, why do you think that's the case?

If you think they're the same (or that the second is better), why do you think the forum community appears to see it as a lot worse? (many threads are asking for buffs to change, along with the agree-disagree ratio on posts about it point at this). Also, feel free to share whether you're as excited, less excited or more excited for buffs now as you were during the first round.

Please keep this thread on track so there's no reason to close it.

Comments

Masterpuff

Its not like the first round was all amazing buffs, sure there were the Magnetos and the Kingpins but there were also buffs like Miles, Nebula and Masacre. Miles got a completely new and interesting kit while still not becoming an overpowered champ. Masacre and Nebula both received just small value buffs with some minor changes that made them both very strong and enjoyable champions.

Im afraid I just can’t say the same for the second round. We have gotten some very small value buffs such as TJF and Yondu. They just were not made any more memorable than they were before the buffs. And then there are DPXF and Storm which received the bigger buffs. Storm turned out to be decent but in my opinion she still really isn’t that valuable. And DPXF is pretty awful still, arguably as bad as before.

Polygon

At this point, I just wish they stopped buffing altogether. That way I at least don’t get my hopes up and then have them crushed time and time again from the back to back dissapointingly lackluster buffs we’ve seen

Yodabolt21

I don't think anyone needs to really explain the first round being the better or preferred.

BitterSteel

I meant more why you thought it was the case that the new one isn't performing as well in your mind, not that Magneto > Psychoman lol

FiiNCH

The standard of buffs are leagues apart IMO.

pseudosane

Sadly, absolutely no question, the first round was better. It isnt the fact that the first round provided "OP" champs, it just just they provided some very interesting interactions, and well rounded champs.

The quality of the second round has dipped significantly to the point that I dont really care about who is getting buffed anymore. The thrill i used to feel on the 19th/20th of every month to know who was getting buffed previously, is no longer there.

EinfachSo

Pressed wrong...of course the first round was better

Skjorn

I’m curious to know the reason for this disparity between the two sets of programs. Is there a different team? I remember hearing about how MROC shutting down was a good thing for MCOC as more Kabam employees would be allocated to MCOC projects. Would love to know the behind the scenes of that situation.

BitterSteel

I think this is the issue for me, take someone like Bishop now. His buff hasn't made him a top champion in the game (except on defence lol) but I genuinely enjoy his kit and what he does. It felt like Kabam put time into him, even though he wasn't ever going to surpass Apoc, Kitty or the rest of them. His buff felt inspired, and that goes for the rest of the inspired but not OP buffs like Venompool, Gambit, Hood, BP OG etc.

It's not about being OP, it's about revitalising interest in dust gathering champs.

Kabam Miike

Hmmm. Curious as to why are all of the Buffs from before lumped together, though there were many changes to the ways in which we operated Buffs during that time as well. We changed cadences, the depths of Buffs, and much more. Would be interested to see how people feel with things split further up, and not just Before X and after X.

For example, I would lump Magneto, Magneto HoX and Daredevil into one, then Punisher 2099, Falcon, Gambit, YJ, Terrax, Kingpin, Moleman, Civil Warrior, Angela, Hood, Masacre, Howard the Duck, Crossbones, into another. Then a couple more.

Also, why does everybody call it a Buff Program? Did I call it that? There's no "program"... There never has been. It's just a thing we do. Was that my fault? I feel like it probably was something I said.

Rockypantherx

To me, there is a clear difference between the two iterations.

Even if the two iterations have the same goal, the design philosophy to achieve that goal has clearly changed. Looking at the first round, it appears making champions effectiveness higher across the board also achieved the aim of making champion more effective across the board

With this second iteration, it feels like they have been told to reign it in so they are good specifically for newer players

Now, I think we started to see this design philosophy shift at the tail end of the first iteration. Specifically, September. This is when we started to see the sig ability formula. Gamora, Thor Rags, Nebula, and we’ve seen this continue with the new program, such as Jane. Miles was very simple, Guillotine was a flop, Karnak kept much of his original kit. Joe Fixit and Hawkeye were the exception towards the end.

The new buffs feel like repeats of the Guillotine, Thor Rags month. Terrible overhaul, and the sig formula, that adds no utility and just increases damage.

The lack of changes in utility has been the most glaring issue with the new iteration, probably because that requires actually adding abilities rather than tweaking values. Even the best buff of the new program, Storm, is good in two scenarios on her own. Shock and purify. The only thing making her good is that they just slapped 10000% special attack damage in those scenarios.

I actually think the new iteration could work if they changed the champions they’re applying it to. Rather than champs with no kit like DPXF, it should be champs like Nebula who just needs some small tweaks (Then again Yondu could fall into that categorically and they botched it). But DPXF, Jane, Ant-Man, Juggernaut and Rocket need Venompool, Diablo and War Machine level overhauls, not the tiny tweaks champs like Thor Rags got

It’s such a shame overall, because people loved the first iteration. It was the most highly anticipated thing every month, because it could instantly improve your account. Which is what makes me think they wanted to change it, because then we had less incentive to chase champs to fill holes in out roster. Now buff announcements are just sad. I don’t want my favourite champs to get buffed anymore, because I’d rather wait 3 years for an actual buff than one of these ‘things’

BitterSteel

That's what i was hoping from the announcement yesterday, but this is what was given in response to our feedback on the buff program feeling different.

"There has been a lot of chatter about how champion reworks and updates have changed. We are still approaching reworks the same way we always have, and we want to reestablish our goals and parameters of these champ revamp efforts.
The goals have always been:
-Give Champions an update that will help them feel more meaningful, especially for newer players who usually have fewer options to deal with challenges and,
-To increase a relative sense of excitement when these champs are pulled from a crystal."

I just am confused how the approach can be the same, if the results are so very different? Surely something is causing the disparity, maybe time given to each buff?

CosmicGuardian

So many of the champs that got buffed in the first round became really fun and interesting champs to play, even if they weren’t necessarily game breaking. For me, buffs like King Groot, Howard, and Black Panther made these champs much more usable, and I enjoy using them each time I do. It feels like in their efforts to keep champs simple for new players, they’re using that to justify making minimal changes during buffs. Despite claims that the program hasn’t changed, it’s extremely difficult to argue against such a marked decrease in quality.

pseudosane

Even if we divide it per year, this year's buffs have been disappointing and subpar.

Kabam Miike

I wouldn't separate by Year either. There have been many changes to the way in which deliver buffs even within one year.

Yodabolt21

Ahhh. In my honest opinion, I think that original buff program was better thought out. I also think that no matter what Kabam says, the buffs were designed to improve the champs in ALL areas. The current system of buffing champs focused on 2* champs and brand new players is just ridiculous.

-X Force buff is not new user friendly. New players do not idle, they hold block, parry and use combos. And landing a heavy is not easy in the early game because the AI.
-Gamora ideally needs to use an sp3, which is deactivated early in the game. Even without that, again, landing a heavy is tough in the early game.
-Yondu's kit is based around the opponent throwing specials. Not only does he not have a mechanic that encourages the defender to throw specials (taunt), new players do not know how to "bait" out specials
-Mordo is probably the best buff of the second wave IMO if there target is new players, but again, landing a heavy....
-Storm is a great buff also, but does not cater to new players. So much of her kit is based on pausing the prowess with a heavy. Again, landing a heavy early in the game...
-Jane is basically the exact same. Not useable

I could list the first wave and explain how the majority are just as easy to use (Kingpin, Ultron, Falcon, Mr.F etc...) as the second wave, but we all know these are facts.

I respect that Kabam "thinks" the new buffs are easier to use, but the simple truth is that MOST of the buffs since the Mag twins have been easy to use save a small handful. And also readily available in the PHC crytal.

CosmicGuardian

I feel like regardless of how the buffs are lumped together, the quality of buffs since taking a break after Hawkeye and Joe Fixit has decreased significantly.

BitterSteel

It's because there feels a very tangible difference in quality. The quality felt very consistent all through the Sept 21 - Dec 22.

Notice that there was never this scale of outcry after the cadence changed in regard to the quality of the buffs, we were upset that there were fewer yes, but after the change in cadence we still enjoyed Diablo up until Joe Fixit the same as Magneto up until Ebony Maw I think. The outcry has started specifically after Psychoman through Jane foster, I don't think that's a coincidence. (there were of course some complaints on quality when the cadence changed, but overall looking back I think we can see that any stretch of champions seems higher quality than the current stretch).

In regards to the word program, I think the reasoning behind this is that before Magneto buffs were announced, we had very occasional buffs to HB, Colossus, Red Hulk, She Hulk etc that didn't come around very often. After the announcement here https://playcontestofchampions.com/news/dev-diary-champions-of-the-contest/ it felt that this was very much a program (definition: a planned series of future events).

Buffs had never been planned before, we now had the following "we’re getting serious about reinvigorating portions of our roster which have been left to atrophy for too long. We’ve carved out a strike-team who will focus entirely on Champion Tune-Ups. What this means in English is that we’re going through the whole roster, and we’re putting all the Champs into 4 categories [then buffing them]

What I will do though Miike, because you may have raised a good point, I'll see when the changes in Cadence were and list the champions with their grouping in terms of Cadence.

Skjorn

Psychoman was the first buff of 2022 and afterwards buffs felt much different in comparison to the 2020/2021 counterparts in terms of both quality and quantity. Starting in 2022 it was announced that the buffs would be slowed down, hence the divide between the two sets was formed.

To your credit though, couldn’t find any discussion on what exactly the “buff program” was, so it seems it was a player-made term which was a good way to describe the ongoing buffs.

Also side note, I appreciate your contribution to the discussion by clearing up some misconceptions. Definitely a good point to further analyze the groupings by changes in the buff system.

Yodabolt21

Then at what point do you think the "buff program" changed? There is a clear difference in quantity AND quality at a certain point. For me, I would say the 2nd group starts when the announcement was made that the buffs were being reevaluated and changed which if memory serves, was at the start of 2022... hence the split in the groups created by @BitterSteel

pseudosane

Even if we count the various changes to the buff program (which i'm not aware of), every change has produced some really interesting champs that impact the meta meaningfully.

Magneto, Magneto House of X, Daredevil NF, Punisher 2099, Falcon, Gambit, YJ, Terrax, Kingpin, Moleman, Civil Warrior, Angela, Hood, Masacre, Howard the Duck, Crossbones, Nova, Black Panther OG, Vulture, Odin (kinda), Mr Fantastic, Ultron, War Machine, Ebony Maw, Diablo, Bishop, Ronin, Hood 2.0, King Groot, Venompool, Miles, Gamora, Thor Rags, Guillotine, Karnak, Nebula, Hawkeye, Joe Fixit

38 champs. Even if we divide it 6-7 per cycle, i count only 4 unpopular buffs. EVERY other champ has had an impact on the game, i have seen r4s of most of those chaps. People investing into them, either for defense/attack/AQ, you name it.

Psychoman, Gamora, Yondu, Deadpool XF, Mordo, Storm OG, Jane Foster

Gamora for AQ, Mordo for defense. StormOG is a novelty but arguably the only "success". I like yondu. But so far none of these champs have had really any impact.

TheBair123

any way you seperate it, i think boils down to the fact that buffs have gotten worse and worse over time. i think buffs like falcon, yellowjacket, kingpin, angela, htd, crossbones, those mid to overhaul buffs made all those champs go from bad or average to good and great. i think a lot of the champs that we've seen recently been buffed are just going from bad to average.

BitterSteel

Just seen this part of the edit, the issue with that Miike, is that we don't get quite enough data points in some of the Cadence's. I mean we had Cadences announced every few months it felt, and it may end up being which buff do you prefer, Magneto, Magneto and Daredevil, or Gamora, thor rags and guillotine. (Not meant to be specific, just a hypothetical I'm making)

Besides, the overarching point of this thread isn't just how to split the buffs by cadence. What do you think about why this run of buffs have been so poorly received? I don't think it's a coincidence that it's happened right as there was an announcement that the balancing system for new champions was taking up some of the game team's time. I suspect that some less time is being put into the new buffs in order to focus on that project, which is fine if that's what's happening but I'm just confused why there's no confirmation of it. And the insistence that nothing has changed.

So could you confirm that this is 1. just a really bad run of buffs that not as many people like, and it may get better over the coming months. Or 2. the time investment into each buff isn't the same as before December 2021, it's being focussed elsewhere.

The hype isn't the same Miike, it used to be something i looked forward to each month, but now it's only disappointing, I'm just trying to find answers as to why, instead of "our intentions haven't changed".

BitterSteel

Alsoalso, I jus thought of another point, so apologies for 3 posts. Your point is taken on cadence, but seeing as cadence was only reduced in order to keep the same quality, and to meet your goals and intentions...

John said that your intentions have never changed, so in that case, I feel like it should be alright to distinguish wherever the community feels there has been a drop off in standards.

If it is the case that "our goals have always been:
-Give Champions an update that will help them feel more meaningful, especially for newer players who usually have fewer options to deal with challenges and,
-To increase a relative sense of excitement when these champs are pulled from a crystal."

Why do those goals not translate to the same quality now, as they did from Sept 2021 - Dec 2022? What has changed so that the quality has changed.

If your point is that previously cadence changed in order to maintain quality of buffs, well, there is a drop off in quality of buff right now, so would you feel that it's right to change cadence again in order to get back to the quality?

I'm sorry for a barrage of points, I just feel very passionately about a part of the game that was the highest on my list of excitement each month - I waited for announcements, ability lists, gameplay from CCP, and right now I feel about as excited as I do for arena.

Terra

I prefer the first round.

But the second round has my favorite Yondu, so I'm split.

GrassKnuckles

Idk how you could choose this year

DRTO

I prefer the pre "buff program" (or not a program according to Kabam Miike) buffs. By this I mean: Venom, Luke Cage, Red Hulk, Carnage, She-Hulk, Spider Gwen, Colossus, Gamora (1st Buff) and I forget who else.

Those were nice cause there were betas for some so we could test and give feedback and each of these champions got significant upgrades which make them very strong champs.

Colinwhitworth69

I appreciate that you've been improving champs, even though some of the buffs have been rather lame as of late.

I guess we call it a program because at one point you paid out a schedule for how many and of what type you would be doing, which pretty much defines "program".

I get that you wanted to scale back, and while it rankles some people here, I am fine with whatever pace you set.

Just remember it was you folks who set the bar so high, with Mags, Falcon, Colossus, and the four-a-month plan. If there's disappointment now, that's a big reason why.

Ercarret

While I agree with the general sentiment that it might be a bit unfair to lump all 2020-2021 buffs together and compare them to the first half of 2022 buffs, I also think that whatever differences there might have been in the development of the buffs throughout the years have been largely hidden from the players. Not maliciously so, but simply as a result of players just not knowing how things change internally at Kabam. From the outside looking in, it's hard to see any difference in your work. Especially since it was very consistent for a very long time in terms of quality.

The thing that seems to have changed is the nowadays commonly reiterated stance that the buffs need to work for newer players as well. For whatever reason, there suddenly seems to be a strange divide between the needs of newer and older players that at least I wasn't aware of during previous years. I don't know if newer players picked up the previously buffed champions to a lesser degree but to me, it seems like a lot of the most successful buffs of previous years just made the game much simpler to play. Either you take less DOT most of the time (Angela), you take fewer debuffs in general (Kingpin), your own stuns stick even if champions shrug off your debuffs (Bishop), or bad stuff just doesn't happen as often when you hit the opponent (Falcon). They were very simple champions to begin with but were given a main piece of utility/had one refined in a way that has served the community at large very well ever since. You can apply that utility all throughout the game, despite its initially-looking simplicity.

I won't really comment on the 2022 round of buffs. For whatever reason, you've managed to expertly target all of the holes that I have in my roster when choosing which champions to buff, so I don't have any personal experience with any of them. But from my discussions with people and what I've seen of the champions in general, it seems like what people are missing are those small pieces of utility that make a champion valuable throughout the game. While full champion reworks like Diablo's are certainly nice and appreciated, buffs don't have to be that deep to stick the landing in the community. None of the examples above were total reworks, they just took subpar champions and made them viable for today's content with some small changes. However, I don't see any such evergreen pieces of utility in any of the recent buffs.

We'll see what happens when new content drops. I think that one thing that might have hampered people's appreciation of the recent buffs, if there's more to them than initially meets the eye, is that they've almost all dropped after Act 7 was concluded. At least for me, there hasn't really been any content to actually try them out in (if I had had any of them). Maybe 8.1 comes around and opens up people's eyes to the value of reducing the opponent's ability power rate when shocked? Or why stacking taunts might be a good idea? Those are hypothetical scenarios, but I also realistically suspect that the appreciation for Mordo's buff will grow as he's put through more content.

Wow, this became a long and winding post. Is it obvious that it was written close to midnight? I suspect it might be. I tend to ramble at that point. Hopefully there's something of value in it, at least.

Chatterofforums

Honestly this is such a baited poll. There are examples of two of the best buffs or most community accepted buffs (while leaving out ddhk, p99, guilly, first couple gamora buffs) compared to some pretty bad buffs while leaving out ones like storm.

There were good and not so good buffs in early champ buff times just as there are now.