(Bug??) Spidey 2099 taking damage from fate seal?

I fought longshot using my Spidey 2099. Longshot activated his sp2 when his good karma were at 5, thereby putting fate seal on Spidey 2099.
I dex after longshot basic combo and I got incineration on me though Spidey 2099 is buff immune .
What's going on?

Comments

Wicket329

It’s the same kind of deal we see with Wiccan. The fate seal is being considered as a blockage before the immunity is, therefore the buff is being read by the game as being prevented by the fate seal (rather than by the immunity), and damage is applied.

It makes more sense in the neutralize instance, but I assume it’s the same thing happening here. Whether it’s intended or a good interaction is up for debate, but I would assume this is the cause.

The_man001

It should be bug, otherwise the whole point of buff immunity is invalid. Buff immune champs are suppose to take the most annoying mystics

Noise72

Well you would still take incinerate damage from his Bad Karma's regardless. My guess is you had a few Bad Karmas before he launched the sp2, or you waited long enough for the Good Karma's to expire and then get applied to you as Bad Karma's while the fate seal/incinerate was still active.

A video would help.

Worknprogress

It should be bug, otherwise the whole point of buff immunity is invalid. Buff immune champs are suppose to take the most annoying mystics

It's not a bug. He's not fate seal immune nor is he incinerate immune. As long as those things are present Longshot's bad karmas effectively act as buffs to fuel his sp2.

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Malreck04

It’s intended, because screw sense, they’ve got to sell counters to the counters.

Worknprogress

Then why he's not taking damage from Mojo field?

Bc you need buffs to get degen from Mojo. You don't need buffs to get incinerated by LS. As I said, you just need a fate seal, incinerate, and bad karma. Read Longshot's sp2 description

Worknprogress

AMS94

Buff immunity doesn't matter against Longshot bcoz bad karma is effectively treated as buffs only
So u'll get incinerated from bad karam even if u don't get buffs

AverageDesi

@Worknprogress it's no that. Op talking about incinerate when you Dex.

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Worknprogress

@Worknprogress it's no that. Op talking about incinerate when you Dex.

I know what was said. That doesnt mean that's what happened. Pure of Heart could have ended and converted the good karma to bad and incinerated. There's no way to tell what actually happened without a video.

BitterSteel

@Worknprogress it's no that. Op talking about incinerate when you Dex.
I know what was said. That doesnt mean that's what happened. Pure of Heart could have ended and converted the good karma to bad and incinerated. There's no way to tell what actually happened without a video.

I just tested it, no bad karma on me, pure of heart still active, I dexed and got incinerate passives on me. This is the same reasoning as why Spidey gets incinerates against Wiccan when neutralised.

You can go and test it now, it’ll take you 30 seconds.

Wicket329

This language actually contradicts what is being seen in game. This says fate seal has to remove the buff, aka the buff has to exist and then be removed. Spidey’s immunity should counteract further incinerates being applied by dexing attacks.

This is different from Wiccan’s interaction, where neutralize prevents the buff from attempting to apply and therefore calculated before the immunity comes into play. If Longshot’s incinerate worked by reducing buff ability accuracy rather than a fate seal, it would make more sense. But that’s not what the character description leads me to believe.

DrZola

This language actually contradicts what is being seen in game. This says fate seal has to remove the buff, aka the buff has to exist and then be removed. Spidey’s immunity should counteract further incinerates being applied by dexing attacks.

This is different from Wiccan’s interaction, where neutralize prevents the buff from attempting to apply and therefore calculated before the immunity comes into play. If Longshot’s incinerate worked by reducing buff ability accuracy rather than a fate seal, it would make more sense. But that’s not what the character description leads me to believe.

@Kabam Miike could we get some clarification on this? The growing number of mystics who punish buffs from a buff immune science champ is disconcerting if that’s what’s happening.

Here I’m not getting anything:

Dr. Zola

AverageDesi

This language actually contradicts what is being seen in game. This says fate seal has to remove the buff, aka the buff has to exist and then be removed. Spidey’s immunity should counteract further incinerates being applied by dexing attacks.

This is different from Wiccan’s interaction, where neutralize prevents the buff from attempting to apply and therefore calculated before the immunity comes into play. If Longshot’s incinerate worked by reducing buff ability accuracy rather than a fate seal, it would make more sense. But that’s not what the character description leads me to believe.
@Kabam Miike could we get some clarification on this? The growing number of mystics who punish buffs from a buff immune science champ is disconcerting if that’s what’s happening.

Here I’m not getting anything:

Dr. Zola

Wasn't there a big thread where everyone came to a cinsenseua?

DrZola

This language actually contradicts what is being seen in game. This says fate seal has to remove the buff, aka the buff has to exist and then be removed. Spidey’s immunity should counteract further incinerates being applied by dexing attacks.

This is different from Wiccan’s interaction, where neutralize prevents the buff from attempting to apply and therefore calculated before the immunity comes into play. If Longshot’s incinerate worked by reducing buff ability accuracy rather than a fate seal, it would make more sense. But that’s not what the character description leads me to believe.
@Kabam Miike could we get some clarification on this? The growing number of mystics who punish buffs from a buff immune science champ is disconcerting if that’s what’s happening.

Here I’m not getting anything:

Dr. Zola
Wasn't there a big thread where everyone came to a cinsenseua?

I believe that was Wiccan. Now another champion causing buff related damage to a champ that is buff immune.

Dr. Zola

DNA3000

It should be bug, otherwise the whole point of buff immunity is invalid. Buff immune champs are suppose to take the most annoying mystics

People keep saying this like it is obvious. It is not. Buff Immune champs are not supposed to just automatically counter annoying mystics. It is not annoying mystic immunity. If it was explicitly intended to be annoying mystic immunity, they would just make those champs immune to all annoying mystics. Buff immunity is intended to make a champ immune to buffs.

Immunity from buffs is not a reality distortion field where buffs no longer exist. Immunity is a very specific thing in MCOC. Immunity prevents an effect from affecting the immune champ. Immunity does not prevent all such effects from existing or triggering. If you are immune to bleed, you do not prevent bleeds from triggering. Champs still trigger bleed effects, and then those bleed effects are blocked by the immunity from taking effect. That is what immunity does.

When we say Superman is immune to bullets, we don't mean that when someone points a gun at him it always misfires. The bullet fires, and then bounces off him. When we say someone is immune to a disease, we don't mean that germs vanish in their presence. They exist, they might even enter their body, but they simply don't cause any negative effects. The common language implication of immunity is not that things don't happen, it is that those things, when they happen, have no effect on the immune.

The notion that buff immunity should not just mean "immune to buff" it should also mean "anyone who tries to use buff mechanics of any kind against you will just magically fail" is not the obvious intent of immunity. It is just the most convenient one that promotes self-interest.

If players want champs that are not just immune to buffs, but have no ability to trigger buffs at all, that's possible to make. But then those champs will not get the benefit of buff immunity that the buff immune champs currently have. Most such champs gain a benefit when their immunity protects them from a buff. If they are incapable of triggering buffs, their buff immunity will never protect them from any buffs. Any such benefits would then vanish.

Buff immunity and inability to trigger buffs are two completely different things. Players should understand what they mean before asking for changes that will have side effects they don't understand and won't enjoy. There's no rule that says players should be immune from the side effects of their suggestions. In fact, there's an unspoken rule that says they shouldn't be.

DrZola

While you may not get agreement on the principle @DNA3000 , there might at least be some (grudging) understanding of the decision to have things operate mechanically the way you’ve described if the team had explained the concept of buff immunity when they gave it to champions in the first place.

But they didn’t. Regardless of whether this was part of a grand plan, it all appears ad hoc at best and at worst an after the fact rationalization to cover for an unexpected result—and one that likely can’t be undone because of the knock-on effects and effort required to undo it.

Dr. Zola

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Coolguy123321

@DNA3000 your take is so bad. Why are you trying to justify a mistake on Kabam’s end? Let them own up to it. Just because it happens doesn’t mean it should.

Longshot’s ability states that anytime a buff would be triggered it is instead consumed by fateseal and this effect triggers the passive incinerates.

S99’s kit explains that there should be no buffs period. If there are no buffs to be gained then why should he be affected at all by the fate seal? This means that he does in fact gain buffs which goes entirely against the whole point of his immunity.

While we’re on this topic, I might as well point out a similar bug I discovered not too long ago. While facing Mephisto, s99 cannot pause his debuffs (wither debuff from his synergy with anti venom) at the start of the fight because mephisto’s ability to make the opponent not trigger buffs gets in the way of spidey’s buff immunity, hence spidey cannot use his buff immunity to pause his personal debuffs.

GrandOldKai

@DNA3000 just 1 question.
Red guardian is not taking damage from longshot sp2 fate seal/incineration but Spidey 2099 is.
So as per your long, long, loong paragraphs, either Red guardian is bugged or Spidey 2099 is!

I tried it myself, and he definitely does Incinerate (provided Dexterity even triggers)

I made sure not to have any Good Karma on Longshot so I didn't see any Bad Karma.

Magrailothos

I think this probably isn't (technically) a Bug - the explanation is essentially very similar to the Wiccan/Neutralise/Incinerate issue which @DNA3000 discussed elsewhere with me, @BitterSteel and @DrZola

i.e. This interaction may or may not be intended*; but it is working correctly according to the rules of the game.

*By which I mean something which the designers actively wanted to happen, rather than something that was just a passive but predictable outcome of their design decisions.

If you take Longshot's champion description at face value, this seems like a bug. But I think a contributing factor here is that (for the sake of conciseness) Kabam don't always add all the text for all abilities which are recycled/repurposed. Fate Seal has been repackaged from older champions, and a bit of text wasn't copy/pasted.

Fate Seal therefore isn't completely described in Longshot's champion description. He describes Fate Seal thus:

The original Champion who had Fate Seal was Dr Strange. His Fate Seal is described a little differently:

Another old champion, Ghost Rider has a similar description to Dr Strange:

----------------------------------

So if we consider the text "prevents any new buffs from activating": this presumably takes effect before any check for "Buff Immunity" is made.

In that case, the Precision buffs that Spidey-2099 or Red Guardian would have gained from Dexterity are being prevented by Fate Seal before being prevented by S99/RG's abilities.

They therefore act as fuel for Longshot's Incinerate.

Intellectually therefore, I think this is working correctly according to the way these abilities interact and therefore it isn't (as such) a Bug.

Emotionally however...

Mother_Flerken

So @DNA3000 what's your take on Buffet then? If the buff still happens like it does as you say for the wiccan or longshot situations before s99/red guardians immunity prevents it then why not for buffet node?

Purely a firing order situation and goes with whatever kabam decides to code it as?

We could just have easily had kabam code it so s99/red guardians own abilities trigger before any outside abilities but maybe that's too difficult and there's already a heap of inconsistencies with mephistos soul imprisonment where buffs will be blocked but others won't be on fight start.

One last one for you, how come when fighting against a bleed immune on masochism, the node doesn't trigger? The bleed is still applied right but the immunity triggers before the node?

So maybe kabam should release an order of trigger for fights?

Does it go:
Attacker > defender > node
Defender > attacker > node
Node > defender > attacker
...
Or any random combination depending on how kabam codes it at the time?

Malreck04

DNA has a habit of going to extreme lengths to construct an explanation around why something works that he forgets to consider if that’s how it should work.

GrandOldKai

DNA has a habit of going to extreme lengths to construct an explanation around why something works that he forgets to consider if that’s how it should work.

Sadly, how things "should" work according to the people isn't how things do work.

An analogy I came up with, is giving Colossus a bulletproof shield that he can't get rid of.

Does he need a bulletproof shield? No. Bullets don't affect him.

However, every time the shield blocks a bullet, he gets blasted by... something that hurts him.

The shield does not prevent the bullets being fired. It blocks them before they reach Colossus, even though they would have no effect on him.

Even though the shield is doing nothing but technically harming him in a situation he shouldn't be harmed in, he can't just get rid of it.

What DNA (and I) are trying to say, is that even though that's not how things "should" work in a reasonable scenario, that's just how they work in game - the Fate Seal blocks the buff before Spider-Man's Immunity, but the buff trigger doesn't magically cease to exist..

It's weird that some Mystic champs would have ways around Buff Immunity (since that's a Science thing), but I guess class advantage doesn't necessarily equate to an optimal match-up vs the entire class

see: Magneto

AverageDesi

DNA has a habit of going to extreme lengths to construct an explanation around why something works that he forgets to consider if that’s how it should work.

What is "should" except what the desginers intent?

BitterSteel

DNA has a habit of going to extreme lengths to construct an explanation around why something works that he forgets to consider if that’s how it should work.
Sadly, how things "should" work according to the people isn't how things do work.

An analogy I came up with, is giving Colossus a bulletproof shield that he can't get rid of.

Does he need a bulletproof shield? No. Bullets don't affect him.

However, every time the shield blocks a bullet, he gets blasted by... something that hurts him.

The shield does not prevent the bullets being fired. It blocks them before they reach Colossus, even though they would have no effect on him.

Even though the shield is doing nothing but technically harming him in a situation he shouldn't be harmed in, he can't just get rid of it.

What DNA (and I) are trying to say, is that even though that's not how things "should" work in a reasonable scenario, that's just how they work in game - the Fate Seal blocks the buff before Spider-Man's Immunity, but the buff trigger doesn't magically cease to exist..

It's weird that some Mystic champs would have ways around Buff Immunity (since that's a Science thing), but I guess class advantage doesn't necessarily equate to an optimal match-up vs the entire class

see: Magneto

I think you’re misunderstanding what people are asking. Nobody is suggesting that we stop the buff ever triggering.

Right now the way I understand it, is there is a process with spidey vs longshot

1. Buff triggers during fateseal
2. Fateseal eats it and causes passive incinerate
3. Buff triggers spidey’s immunity

Obviously 3 never happens because the buff was eaten by the fate seal.

My suggestion is that we alter what the fate seal does, so that it checks for the buff after the immunity is triggered.

So that would mean it would be this order

1. Buff triggers during fateseal
2. Buff triggers spidey’s immunity
3. Fate seal never eats it because it never triggered

I have a feeling the issue will be what knock on effects this may have for other abilities. I don’t pretend to assume everything would be A-Ok If it were changed. Which is why I’m asking that question, and if any of the forum staff could ask the developers about how realistic this is as an idea, it would be very helpful.

I’m not in the habit of asking for all interactions to be player favourable, I just think this one where a buff immune champion can have a buff nullified seems odd. It logically makes sense from a game mechanic POV, and I see the logic, but as a player it really doesn’t make sense when you put it like that. Buff immune champs having buffs nullified seems odd.

DNA and I spoke about this on line, and he suggested maybe it’s not as simple as that, and I do appreciate his opinion but it would be nice to get official confirmation that this wouldn’t work.

Also, Magneto is a bad example to bring up on class relationships, he is specifically designed to counter his class advantage because of his powers. Wiccan and Longshot aren’t specifically designed to counter science champions.

Nobody is saying Spidey should counter Wiccan and Longshot because he’s science and only that, they’re saying it’s weird that a champion who cannot get buffs can be punished for triggering buffs - the class relationship is a minor point added on. If Longshot or Wiccan were cosmic and punished buffs, Spidey would still be buff immune and the same discussion would be happening regardless of class advantage or not. Whether you agree or not on the larger point is fine, but that’s not the point being made here.

BitterSteel

DNA has a habit of going to extreme lengths to construct an explanation around why something works that he forgets to consider if that’s how it should work.
What is "should" except what the desginers intent?

As a point on logic, just because it’s something the designers intend doesn’t automatically make it the best way to design it. They are human, and things can be intended one way and interact differently, or there could be a disagreement from the player base that what they’ve intended doesn’t make sense, or a great many other things.

Regardless of what you think about this one situation, as an argument ‘if kabam intended it then it should be in the game’ isn’t that strong.

AverageDesi

DNA has a habit of going to extreme lengths to construct an explanation around why something works that he forgets to consider if that’s how it should work.
What is "should" except what the desginers intent?
As a point on logic, just because it’s something the designers intend doesn’t automatically make it the best way to design it. They are human, and things can be intended one way and interact differently, or there could be a disagreement from the player base that what they’ve intended doesn’t make sense, or a great many other things.

Regardless of what you think about this one situation, as an argument ‘if kabam intended it then it should be in the game’ isn’t that strong.

I won't comment on this particular scenario cause i haven't actually understood the mechanics enough. But usually when players say should it's based on their biases rather than game consistenncy