How will neutralise interact with immunity to AAR?

When a champion is immune to AAR, concussion doesn’t trigger on them at all. It’s not just that the debuff doesn’t affect them, it doesn’t apply at all. Like Apoc’s sp2 against Old Man Logan.

However, if this is the case with Tigra and her neutralise - and neutralise can’t trigger at all. Then she will be absolutely useless against immune to AAR or force of will, if she can’t apply her neutralise then she can’t keep her senses up and they’ll just run out immediately.

This is a pretty big deal. While I’m a little disappointed as a tigra player that she won’t work to reduce buff ability accuracy against immune to AAR champs anymore, I can understand that the game needs to work as intended. It would just be a big blow to tigra if she can’t be used against immune to AAR champs at all due to neutralise not triggering.

Could we get some clarification on what the interaction will be before the update?

Comments

pseudosane

I'm happy she will be fixed and I do hope she wont work on AA immune champs and nodes, but i would liketo know what the interaction is, since now RIntrah and Wiccan are also neutralize champs.

SHIELD4AGENT

This is just bull.
Imagine fighting a nullify, stagger & fate seal immune champ like Galan on Force of Will node, using Tigra. 🙃
Class advantage no more.

Colinwhitworth69

When a champion is immune to AAR, concussion doesn’t trigger on them at all. It’s not just that the debuff doesn’t affect them, it doesn’t apply at all. Like Apoc’s sp2 against Old Man Logan.

However, if this is the case with Tigra and her neutralise - and neutralise can’t trigger at all. Then she will be absolutely useless against immune to AAR or force of will, if she can’t apply her neutralise then she can’t keep her senses up and they’ll just run out immediately.

This is a pretty big deal. While I’m a little disappointed as a tigra player that she won’t work to reduce buff ability accuracy against immune to AAR champs anymore, I can understand that the game needs to work as intended. It would just be a big blow to tigra if she can’t be used against immune to AAR champs at all due to neutralise not triggering.

Could we get some clarification on what the interaction will be before the update?

Does it matter if it’s a passive debuff?

My old man brain can never keep track of all the interactions between nodes, abilities, immunities, days of the week…

BitterSteel

When a champion is immune to AAR, concussion doesn’t trigger on them at all. It’s not just that the debuff doesn’t affect them, it doesn’t apply at all. Like Apoc’s sp2 against Old Man Logan.

However, if this is the case with Tigra and her neutralise - and neutralise can’t trigger at all. Then she will be absolutely useless against immune to AAR or force of will, if she can’t apply her neutralise then she can’t keep her senses up and they’ll just run out immediately.

This is a pretty big deal. While I’m a little disappointed as a tigra player that she won’t work to reduce buff ability accuracy against immune to AAR champs anymore, I can understand that the game needs to work as intended. It would just be a big blow to tigra if she can’t be used against immune to AAR champs at all due to neutralise not triggering.

Could we get some clarification on what the interaction will be before the update?
Does it matter if it’s a passive debuff?

My old man brain can never keep track of all the interactions between nodes, abilities, immunities, days of the week…

Yeah Stryfe’s passive concussion doesn’t apply either.

Not to be pedantic but I have an urge to correct “passive debuff”. Things are either a debuff, or a passive. Both are “effects” but it’s either a passive or a debuff

Colinwhitworth69

When a champion is immune to AAR, concussion doesn’t trigger on them at all. It’s not just that the debuff doesn’t affect them, it doesn’t apply at all. Like Apoc’s sp2 against Old Man Logan.

However, if this is the case with Tigra and her neutralise - and neutralise can’t trigger at all. Then she will be absolutely useless against immune to AAR or force of will, if she can’t apply her neutralise then she can’t keep her senses up and they’ll just run out immediately.

This is a pretty big deal. While I’m a little disappointed as a tigra player that she won’t work to reduce buff ability accuracy against immune to AAR champs anymore, I can understand that the game needs to work as intended. It would just be a big blow to tigra if she can’t be used against immune to AAR champs at all due to neutralise not triggering.

Could we get some clarification on what the interaction will be before the update?
Does it matter if it’s a passive debuff?

My old man brain can never keep track of all the interactions between nodes, abilities, immunities, days of the week…

Yeah Stryfe’s passive concussion doesn’t apply either.

Not to be pedantic but I have an urge to correct “passive debuff”. Things are either a debuff, or a passive. Both are “effects” but it’s either a passive or a debuff

This is exactly my problem. Words matter, but there’s no glossary. Like with most things in the game, I’ll prolly learn the hard way.

Fintech

If this ”fix” makes it so neutralize doesn’t trigger at all on any opponent who is immune to ability accuracy reduction you have effectively introduced a killswitch to Tigra. Without the neutralize she can’t keep her senses up and she becomes completely useless. I do think it’s fine if neutralize can’t lower the buff ability accuracy of opponents of who are immune to AAR but don’t make them immune to the effect as a whole. Without buff AAR all Tigra has is damage, she shouldn’t lose that too whenever she fights a champ on force of will nodes…

Malreck04

If this ”fix” makes it so neutralize doesn’t trigger at all on any opponent who is immune to ability accuracy reduction you have effectively introduced a killswitch to Tigra. Without the neutralize she can’t keep her senses up and she becomes completely useless. I do think it’s fine if neutralize can’t lower the buff ability accuracy of opponents of who are immune to AAR but don’t make them immune to the effect as a whole. Without buff AAR all Tigra has is damage, she shouldn’t lose that too whenever she fights a champ on force of will nodes…

Lol, their focus was to sell neutralise champs for a while now, now their killing them off themselves

Gogeta91199

If this ”fix” makes it so neutralize doesn’t trigger at all on any opponent who is immune to ability accuracy reduction you have effectively introduced a killswitch to Tigra. Without the neutralize she can’t keep her senses up and she becomes completely useless. I do think it’s fine if neutralize can’t lower the buff ability accuracy of opponents of who are immune to AAR but don’t make them immune to the effect as a whole. Without buff AAR all Tigra has is damage, she shouldn’t lose that too whenever she fights a champ on force of will nodes…

I don’t think she’ll even have damage if her neutralize doesn’t stick…
But it think that unlike concussions, the neutralize will stick just like slow debuffs on opponents with increased AAR but will not stop the buffs from triggering similar to slow on longshot or sorcerer supreme or mr fantastic to name a few.
Hopefully it is like this otherwise it's a big thumbs down to tigra players.
Nonetheless this change sucks cuz tigra doesn’t have anything else for buff control but kabam always comes up with roadblocks to stop good champs…

unknown

This content has been removed.

Dark_hoods

Wait what lol . Do you only use tygra exclusively or do you have a roster there's your answer . Why is It so important to use her against these champs

Against who? Champs who are immune to nullify/fate seal such as galan? Yes it’s important because neutralize bypasses that

AverageDesi

Which other debuff is there that does aar exclusively?

Doosra

Which other debuff is there that does aar exclusively?

Slow,pretty sure the description has some aar shenanigans

Mobile_P0tat0

Anyone have a link to the neutralize change? Does this mean that tigra won't be a good matchup for node 25 with footloose/FoW anymore?

AverageDesi

Which other debuff is there that does aar exclusively?
Slow,pretty sure the description has some aar shenanigans

But it does other things also

unknown

This content has been removed.

Magrailothos

Anyone have a link to the neutralize change? Does this mean that tigra won't be a good matchup for node 25 with footloose/FoW anymore?

It's on the update page: https://playcontestofchampions.com/news/v36-2-release-notes/
Screenshot here:

BitterSteel

Which other debuff is there that does aar exclusively?

I mean there’s concussion, and you can even see a passive example. Stryfe has a passive concussion that doesn’t apply to OML, meaning he can’t block unblockable attacks anymore.

Makes me worry that it’ll be the same for Tigra

Fryday

This does look extremely worrying when a champ could be made completely useless with this change.

Would be important to know, what and how exactly Kabam development team envision Tigra should work after this change and even more importantly have the team done enough testing of this change before releasing.

As like @BitterSteel and many other players have said, this could completely destroy the main strength of Tigra (which isn't game breaking by any mean). Again players have put a lot of resources into getting, ranking, awaken and put a lot of sig stones into Tigra.

Hope to hear an official response from the Kabam team on this

AverageDesi

Slow also currently works in preventing evade of aar immune.

ninos

Slow also currently works in preventing evade of aar immune.

Thats not true, yes the debuff does apply but it doesnt prevent the evade
Source: fought the last variant 4 boss and he was evading even with slow on him

Qwerty12345

So I am confused on 2 accounts here.

1: When this interaction was first questioned by players, there was a great lengthy discussion about the order of operations, and how various kinds of "nullify like effects" differ, and the official response was that this was working as intended. While I think this makes more sense... Why wasn't this acknowledged then?

2: Within hours of this announcement, there was also an announcement saying that Wong and Rintrah are balanced and won't be touched. While one could certainly make an argument that changing the definition of neutralize doesn't change the champion... I don't how you can say how the champion will or wont be used going forward, and at minimum, this should have been mentioned. Considering this is a "side effect nerf", I don't think it is unreasonable to say that there will be additional review done after this change to these and other neutralize champions to see what effect this change has and to see if any more changes are needed to neutralize or their champions (not that I expect there will be one... but its not responsible to at least not consider it).

Beewee

I mean yes it is a bug, but why is it being brought up now. Last time it was brought up it was said to be working as intended. Now its no longer working as intended even though it works the same? Why wasn’t this addressed earlier when people brought it up?

Colinwhitworth69

Wait what lol . Do you only use tygra exclusively or do you have a roster there's your answer . Why is It so important to use her against these champs
Against who? Champs who are immune to nullify/fate seal such as galan? Yes it’s important because neutralize bypasses that

Diablo works against Galan in the side quest. And would BWCV sp2 work (honestly do not know)?

KnightNvrEnding

This change seems rather short sighted to me lol

DJ_Sergy

I mean yes it is a bug, but why is it being brought up now. Last time it was brought up it was said to be working as intended. Now its no longer working as intended even though it works the same? Why wasn’t this addressed earlier when people brought it up?

AA stunning stun immune???? Lol not the first time they’ve retract a “working as intended “ statement. Won’t be the last. Game is fluid with new content and nodes being introduced so they need the flexibility to change as they want to 😂

Worknprogress

This does look extremely worrying when a champ could be made completely useless with this change.

Would be important to know, what and how exactly Kabam development team envision Tigra should work after this change and even more importantly have the team done enough testing of this change before releasing.

As like @BitterSteel and many other players have said, this could completely destroy the main strength of Tigra (which isn't game breaking by any mean). Again players have put a lot of resources into getting, ranking, awaken and put a lot of sig stones into Tigra.

Hope to hear an official response from the Kabam team on this

Pretty big stretch of an exaggeration with the make a champ completely useless here. There's one situation where neutralize won't work, ability accuracy immunity. That's like saying having bleed immunity in the game makes Nick Fury completely useless.

BitterSteel

I mean yes it is a bug, but why is it being brought up now. Last time it was brought up it was said to be working as intended. Now its no longer working as intended even though it works the same? Why wasn’t this addressed earlier when people brought it up?

I’m assuming you’re talking about the Wiccan neutralise thread?

They didn’t confirm neutralise working as intended against immunity to AAR, just that it was working against buff immune right.

Though having said that, @DNA3000 did speak to the Kabam developers about neutralise specifically against immune to AAR, and this is that exchange.

In this spoiler section I’ll post the rest of DNA’s post because (shock) it’s really long.

After discussing this in depth with Kabam, I can now answer this question. The answer is no. Neutralize is not supposed to work on those champs.

To clarify a number of questions and points that have been brought up in this thread:

1. Neutralize definitively works the way it is described to work. It lowers buff ability accuracy. This means it lowers the ability accuracy of any ability that is tagged as a buff. (Note: this also means there is no separate "buff ability accuracy" that obeys different rules as ability accuracy).

2. Anything that claims to be immune to ability accuracy modification (or reduction, or whatever) should be immune to Neutralize, because that's what Neutralize does.

3. However, this doesn't always work as stated. The reasons are mostly historical. Once upon a time the way AA immunity was implemented was to make the champion immune to all effects that modified ability accuracy. The problem with this is that it cannot account for future game developments. If you invent some new effect in the future that alters ability accuracy, like say Neutralize, the champion won't be immune to it, because Neutralize did not exist when the champion was created and thus the champion could not be explicitly made immune to that effect at the time.

4. The only way to remedy this would be to remember every champ that was ever made immune to ability accuracy in this way, and adjust them accordingly. However, this is problematic because ability accuracy is not the only effect for which this might be true. It might seem obvious in hindsight to do this, but it would not necessarily be obvious to the developer creating Neutralize. It is important to note that the programmers who code the game engine and the engineers who make mechanics like Neutralize and the designers who use Neutralize in champion design are not the same people. It can be easy to get tunnel-visioned into your own sphere of work and not be fully aware of the impact of that work globally.

5. So when Neutralize was created, many champs who should have been immune to it by design intent were not updated to be so. *Some* champs could have been automatically immune to Neutralize because improved game engine technology eventually allowed developers to make champions immune to the effects of ability accuracy reduction rather than requiring them to be specifically immune to every single ability accuracy modifying effect. These champions are much more likely to retain their immunity to such effects even when new effects are created within the game. But many others like Mysterio are not.

6. This means - at least as a reasonable assumption moving forward - every champ that is stated to be immune to ability accuracy modification *should be* immune to Neutralize (and would have been had the current tech been available to implement them) and thus should be considered bugged. This means at some future point in time, players should assume that, barring some change in intent for those champions, champions that are supposed to be immune to ability accuracy modification but are being affected by Neutralize will be adjusted to make their immunity work correctly.

7. As this requires changing the champion's implementation (either by updating them to use more modern tech or to at least update their list of immunities), this is not something that can happen quickly.

This is my own distillation of my conversation with Kabam, and any translation errors within it are mine alone.

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2124236#Comment_2124236

So unfortunately they did confirm that neutralise wasn’t working as intended back in early July.

BitterSteel

This does look extremely worrying when a champ could be made completely useless with this change.

Would be important to know, what and how exactly Kabam development team envision Tigra should work after this change and even more importantly have the team done enough testing of this change before releasing.

As like @BitterSteel and many other players have said, this could completely destroy the main strength of Tigra (which isn't game breaking by any mean). Again players have put a lot of resources into getting, ranking, awaken and put a lot of sig stones into Tigra.

Hope to hear an official response from the Kabam team on this
Pretty big stretch of an exaggeration with the make a champ completely useless here. There's one situation where neutralize won't work, ability accuracy immunity. That's like saying having bleed immunity in the game makes Nick Fury completely useless.

I agree, I say this as someone with a rank 4, this will almost barely touch my use of tigra. It’s a shame to not be able to use her in more places, but really it’s 5 champions and 1 node. It will be frustrating when they come up, but no less than when archangel has a bleed immune match up (who I also have at R4).

She will be “useless” against 5 champions and one node. Definitely a shame, and I’d prefer it not to work that way. But overall, Tigra is still going to be 99.9% the champ she is now.

AMS94

I think Galan has something to do with this decision
His design looks like he's supposed to be a boss
May be he will be the next AQ boss after Spidey/Peni
And he can also be a very painful AW boss with slight modification in that node

VanillaCoke

I think Galan has something to do with this decision
His design looks like he's supposed to be a boss
May be he will be the next AQ boss after Spidey/Peni
And he can also be a very painful AW boss with slight modification in that node

Galan as AW boss gets pancaked, especially when using Tigra. Galan on Force of Will nodes will make him painful, probably more painful than the Boss node.