As Work already pointed out, Mags has a secondary effect of reducing heal potency.
It’s like disorient reducing DAA and block proficiency, that can still apply to immune to AAR champions because they’re not immune to having their block proficiency reduced
Theoretically if Weapon X were placed on an immune to AAR node, he shouldn’t be magnetised because he’s immune to regen rate reduction and AAR. However I’m not sure if it actually would, because at the moment AAR and immunity to AAR is an extremely inconsistent interaction:
Slow working on immune to AAR, Falcon working on immunity to AAR, Apoc’s shrug off counter working against AAR.
It’s all new abilities and different ways to reduce AAR that immunity to AAR hasn’t been updated for.
I’d personally rather a non bugged game, that works correctly than pro player bugs. Consistency is better. This game is already complex enough without some things working in one place, and other identical things not working.
What other work Neurotoxin have when Archangel is unawakened? So neurotoxins of unawakened archangel should not apply to aar immune champs.
What? Neuros don't just reduce ability accuracy, they also deal flat damage per neuro, and shut off healing, come on man
As Work already pointed out, Mags has a secondary effect of reducing heal potency.
It’s like disorient reducing DAA and block proficiency, that can still apply to immune to AAR champions because they’re not immune to having their block proficiency reduced
Theoretically if Weapon X were placed on an immune to AAR node, he shouldn’t be magnetised because he’s immune to regen rate reduction and AAR. However I’m not sure if it actually would, because at the moment AAR and immunity to AAR is an extremely inconsistent interaction:
Slow working on immune to AAR, Falcon working on immunity to AAR, Apoc’s shrug off counter working against AAR.
It’s all new abilities and different ways to reduce AAR that immunity to AAR hasn’t been updated for.
I’d personally rather a non bugged game, that works correctly than pro player bugs. Consistency is better. This game is already complex enough without some things working in one place, and other identical things not working.
What other work Neurotoxin have when Archangel is unawakened? So neurotoxins of unawakened archangel should not apply to aar immune champs.
Neurotoxin of an unawakened archangel doesn’t reduce AAR.
Neurotoxin of an awakened archangel does reduce AAR, but it also blocks healing.
Besides, even if an unawakened archangel reduced AAR with neurotoxin, the neuro’s do damage as well - so that’s a secondary effect in and of itself
In my opinion, these interactions with AAR and immunity to AAR are far to complex for Kabam to be silent on it. Can we please get some clarification on exactly what is supposed to be happening in these scenarios?
I don’t think it’s good to stay quiet and allow us to think everything is fine, and then fix bugs years on. There needs to be a bump in communication about what is and isn’t working. I don’t mind bugs being fixed, and I’d rather a working and consistent game - but there’s not enough communication.
Is Falcon’s DAAR supposed to work on AAR immune champs? Is it supposed to even apply?
What about Apoc’s shrug off reduction?
What about slow?
What are the intended interactions here? Because it’s absolutely not clear. I don’t think it’s good to just wake up to a patch notes and see them updated one day. Please improve communication on bugs.
There are some champions and many nodes with AAR. Some of those champions don't even gain buffs like Archangel but he's now immune to this. This becomes a very big issue if can't even pause her senses. We don't want rank down tickets, we want you to fix this. So many people have invested resources in these champions. Why can't you fix normal issues, instead you're nerfing tigra, rintrah,etc. You're can't even make red hulk incerate immune.
There are 5 champions and 1 node.
They did fix it. AA does gain buffs. AA is immune to AAR. So are you saying you think Quake and Taskmaster should be able to place concussions on AA but it have no effect? Should I be able to place a bleed on Dragon Man even though he's immune?
Red Hulks sig helps the immunity happen faster. The higher the sig, the better. It's not hard getting to 10 with RH.
As Work already pointed out, Mags has a secondary effect of reducing heal potency.
It’s like disorient reducing DAA and block proficiency, that can still apply to immune to AAR champions because they’re not immune to having their block proficiency reduced
Theoretically if Weapon X were placed on an immune to AAR node, he shouldn’t be magnetised because he’s immune to regen rate reduction and AAR. However I’m not sure if it actually would, because at the moment AAR and immunity to AAR is an extremely inconsistent interaction:
Slow working on immune to AAR, Falcon working on immunity to AAR, Apoc’s shrug off counter working against AAR.
It’s all new abilities and different ways to reduce AAR that immunity to AAR hasn’t been updated for.
I’d personally rather a non bugged game, that works correctly than pro player bugs. Consistency is better. This game is already complex enough without some things working in one place, and other identical things not working.
What other work Neurotoxin have when Archangel is unawakened? So neurotoxins of unawakened archangel should not apply to aar immune champs.
I feel like players asking for the Devs to compromise and arrive at a middle ground on game mechanics is ridiculous. I think they wouldn't and shouldn't change it just because players are unhappy. It's one thing to suggest changes to champions themselves but saying tigra should be able to place neutralise but not have any effect is not good.
If game consistency requires "nerfing " champs then let it be.
If they really want then the solution could be that landing hits pause tigra's senses for 2.5 seconds instead of tying it to presence of neutralize
They shouldn't change anything. Certain champs have bad matchups I don't get why people are acting like this is some new atrocity. If the change didn't make any sense it would be one thing but it makes complete sense given how other effects are treated against immunity so people really just need to get over it.
Agreed. I was just saying that the players instead of asking to change the mechanics thwmsleves should maybe better ask for tigra change
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
Still a bit too complex, hopefully someone will be able to explain in even simpler terms..
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
I don't buy this explanation... it's not like Archangel or Mysterio are champs that have buffs other than dex that would bother any player. Also if you want to fix something, fix the way that disorient affect archangel that clearly state "reduce ability accuracy"... this node affecting him make mush less sense. But i guess no, because you like to place this disorient buff\passive everywhere right now... monthly events, AW, EOP, etc...
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
I don't buy this explanation... it's not like Archangel or Mysterio are champs that have buffs other than dex that would bother any player. Also if you want to fix something, fix the way that disorient affect archangel that clearly state "reduce ability accuracy"... this node affecting him make mush less sense. But i guess no, because you like to place this disorient buff\passive everywhere right now... monthly events, AW, EOP, etc...
Ummmmm you do realize as a defender, both of them can receive Fury, Armor, Power Gain or any other buff the node provides for them. So they may not have buffs built into their kit but they can get any other buff out there if by node or synergy like Hiemdall.
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
Sheesh. These interactions are going to be so complicated, you'll have to do deep dives to figure out what's working as intended and what's broken. So what's the difference between Neutralize that applies but doesn't reduce AA and Omega Sentinel where bleed and poison effects still apply but don't do their usual functions including poison's regen reduction?
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
Sheesh. These interactions are going to be so complicated, you'll have to do deep dives to figure out what's working as intended and what's broken. So what's the difference between Neutralize that applies but doesn't reduce AA and Omega Sentinel where bleed and poison effects still apply but don't do their usual functions including poison's regen reduction?
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
Sheesh. These interactions are going to be so complicated, you'll have to do deep dives to figure out what's working as intended and what's broken. So what's the difference between Neutralize that applies but doesn't reduce AA and Omega Sentinel where bleed and poison effects still apply but don't do their usual functions including poison's regen reduction?
OS is immune to the damage not the effect.
They still apply though. Regardless if any additional effects may also apply. Why couldn't they do the same for other champs? Archangel, for instance, would be immune to the AAR of Neutralize and not the effect itself specifically, correct?
Immune to bleed effects is not the same as takes no bleed damage (bleed effects proc), and Immune to AAR (effects still proc) is not the same as Immune to Neutralize/Concussion/etc.
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
Sheesh. These interactions are going to be so complicated, you'll have to do deep dives to figure out what's working as intended and what's broken. So what's the difference between Neutralize that applies but doesn't reduce AA and Omega Sentinel where bleed and poison effects still apply but don't do their usual functions including poison's regen reduction?
OS is immune to the damage not the effect.
They still apply though. Regardless if any additional effects may also apply. Why couldn't they do the same for other champs? Archangel, for instance, would be immune to the AAR of Neutralize and not the effect itself specifically, correct?
Just to clarify what you’re saying, Archangel will be immune to neutralise as an effect - as in it won’t apply at all. That’s what’s going to happen. It’s not the same as OS being *resistant* to bleed and poison. Because Os isn’t immune to those effects
The reason for this as follows:
“The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.”
I am years in the mcoc game but with those things I really feel left behind. Thing are getting so complex, it goes out of hand. AAR topics were always strange but this incident is too much to follow.
You should think about learn nuggets or something like that. Maybe internally first
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
Sheesh. These interactions are going to be so complicated, you'll have to do deep dives to figure out what's working as intended and what's broken. So what's the difference between Neutralize that applies but doesn't reduce AA and Omega Sentinel where bleed and poison effects still apply but don't do their usual functions including poison's regen reduction?
OS is immune to the damage not the effect.
They still apply though. Regardless if any additional effects may also apply. Why couldn't they do the same for other champs? Archangel, for instance, would be immune to the AAR of Neutralize and not the effect itself specifically, correct?
Just to clarify what you’re saying, Archangel will be immune to neutralise as an effect - as in it won’t apply at all. That’s what’s going to happen. It’s not the same as OS being *resistant* to bleed and poison. Because Os isn’t immune to those effects
The reason for this as follows:
“The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.”
I'm saying it should still proc, but have no effect. She isn't just resistant unless you're saying she's infinitely resistant because she specifically takes no damage (not 100% or any other modifiers, specifically no). Making her full-on susceptible to any other effects that come along for the ride except for the poison regen reduction. So why couldn't Archangel be infinitely resistant to AAR and not the particular effects? They've already done it with OS.
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
Sheesh. These interactions are going to be so complicated, you'll have to do deep dives to figure out what's working as intended and what's broken. So what's the difference between Neutralize that applies but doesn't reduce AA and Omega Sentinel where bleed and poison effects still apply but don't do their usual functions including poison's regen reduction?
OS is immune to the damage not the effect.
They still apply though. Regardless if any additional effects may also apply. Why couldn't they do the same for other champs? Archangel, for instance, would be immune to the AAR of Neutralize and not the effect itself specifically, correct?
Just to clarify what you’re saying, Archangel will be immune to neutralise as an effect - as in it won’t apply at all. That’s what’s going to happen. It’s not the same as OS being *resistant* to bleed and poison. Because Os isn’t immune to those effects
The reason for this as follows:
“The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.”
I'm saying it should still proc, but have no effect. She isn't just resistant unless you're saying she's infinitely resistant because she specifically takes no damage (not 100% or any other modifiers, specifically no). Making her full-on susceptible to any other effects that come along for the ride except for the poison regen reduction. So why couldn't Archangel be infinitely resistant to AAR and not the particular effects? They've already done it with OS.
That's a valid preference to have, but Miike explained in the post that 1) it doesn't fit in with the precedent set by Concussion and its application to immune to AAR champs and 2) it would have a bigger risk of causing bugs, which we can all do without.
In my opinion, I'd rather have a more consistent game where if one thing applies somewhere it applies the same way in another situation. If I'm going into a fight with an interaction in mind and it's the opposite of what I expect, then that removes some of the value of learning the interaction in the first place. Consistency is more important to the game than breaking that consistency just to make something be pro player in my opinion.
Are you arguing that Tigra should apply neutralise but have no effect because you think it's better for the game, or because it's better for the player? The two aren't always necessarily aligned.
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
Sheesh. These interactions are going to be so complicated, you'll have to do deep dives to figure out what's working as intended and what's broken. So what's the difference between Neutralize that applies but doesn't reduce AA and Omega Sentinel where bleed and poison effects still apply but don't do their usual functions including poison's regen reduction?
OS is immune to the damage not the effect.
They still apply though. Regardless if any additional effects may also apply. Why couldn't they do the same for other champs? Archangel, for instance, would be immune to the AAR of Neutralize and not the effect itself specifically, correct?
Immune to bleed effects is not the same as takes no bleed damage (bleed effects proc), and Immune to AAR (effects still proc) is not the same as Immune to Neutralize/Concussion/etc.
OS is probably the worst example to use. Her explicitly states she's immune to damage from bleed and poison and immune to the reduction in healing from poison. The "effect" is the debuff icon which process the self repair to start. The effect is needed for part of her mechanics to work. It's roughly the same mechanic as Corvus. He's immune to bleed damage as long as he has charges.
AA is immune to AAR. Neutralize IS AAR because it's sole purpose is to prevent buffs from happening. So the effect should not proc. Just like Nimrod being immune to Bleed. The effect can't proc because he's immune.
I am years in the mcoc game but with those things I really feel left behind. Thing are getting so complex, it goes out of hand. AAR topics were always strange but this incident is too much to follow.
You should think about learn nuggets or something like that. Maybe internally first
Have you read the discussion of which procs first offensive or defensive? Fun read. I noped out very fast
Magneto still places magnetize on Archangel and that also reduces ability accuracy. 🤔
Magnetizing the opponent has other effects beyond reducing their Ability Accuracy. Magneto's abilities are also enhanced in that case, and regen rate is reduced. AAR is not the only function of magnetizing.
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Neurotoxin of an awakened archangel does reduce AAR, but it also blocks healing.
Besides, even if an unawakened archangel reduced AAR with neurotoxin, the neuro’s do damage as well - so that’s a secondary effect in and of itself
In my opinion, these interactions with AAR and immunity to AAR are far to complex for Kabam to be silent on it. Can we please get some clarification on exactly what is supposed to be happening in these scenarios?
I don’t think it’s good to stay quiet and allow us to think everything is fine, and then fix bugs years on. There needs to be a bump in communication about what is and isn’t working. I don’t mind bugs being fixed, and I’d rather a working and consistent game - but there’s not enough communication.
Is Falcon’s DAAR supposed to work on AAR immune champs? Is it supposed to even apply?
What about Apoc’s shrug off reduction?
What about slow?
What are the intended interactions here? Because it’s absolutely not clear. I don’t think it’s good to just wake up to a patch notes and see them updated one day. Please improve communication on bugs.
They did fix it. AA does gain buffs. AA is immune to AAR. So are you saying you think Quake and Taskmaster should be able to place concussions on AA but it have no effect? Should I be able to place a bleed on Dragon Man even though he's immune?
Red Hulks sig helps the immunity happen faster. The higher the sig, the better. It's not hard getting to 10 with RH.
And willpower from disorient 'debuffs'
I spoke to our Designers about this, looking to get some insight into why we made the change. This is what they had to say:
"The core reason behind this decision was that we got numerous reports of players expecting Neutralize (especially Wiccan’s Neutralize) to work the same way as Concussion when it comes to Champions who counter to Ability Accuracy reduction (primarily Archangel and Mysterio).
Those Champion’s info pages say their "Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased." And then, in practice, when receiving an effect that ONLY lowers Ability Accuracy, the effect just doesn't apply (similar to an Immunity). This was a precedent set by Concussion and Archangel, so therefore Neutralize had to follow the same pattern.
The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.
So we made the call to keep things as close as possible to the precedent that was set. And that has negative impacts on Tigra (and Wiccan, who was the entire reason we did this in the first place).
We intentionally didn't touch “composite” effects like Slow or Disorient. That would be an even bigger change and the precedent for how those work against Archangel is a little... looser"
I hope this explains the reasoning behind the change.
Could you ask if it's intended that Archangels ability accuracy is reduced by Disorient Debuff?
Also if you want to fix something, fix the way that disorient affect archangel that clearly state "reduce ability accuracy"... this node affecting him make mush less sense. But i guess no, because you like to place this disorient buff\passive everywhere right now... monthly events, AW, EOP, etc...
So what's the difference between Neutralize that applies but doesn't reduce AA and Omega Sentinel where bleed and poison effects still apply but don't do their usual functions including poison's regen reduction?
Immune to bleed effects is not the same as takes no bleed damage (bleed effects proc), and Immune to AAR (effects still proc) is not the same as Immune to Neutralize/Concussion/etc.
The reason for this as follows:
“The alternate option was to do exactly as some players have suggested. We change these AAR-resistant Champs to keep the effect on them but ignore the impact of it (so you see the HUD icon, but it doesn't do anything). But doing this would actually be a huge change due to how the code works and, therefore, a bigger risk of introducing bugs. And in many cases, this change would actually make these Champs worse. And one of them is Archangel, who is a very important Champ to a lot of people.”
You should think about learn nuggets or something like that. Maybe internally first
In my opinion, I'd rather have a more consistent game where if one thing applies somewhere it applies the same way in another situation. If I'm going into a fight with an interaction in mind and it's the opposite of what I expect, then that removes some of the value of learning the interaction in the first place. Consistency is more important to the game than breaking that consistency just to make something be pro player in my opinion.
Are you arguing that Tigra should apply neutralise but have no effect because you think it's better for the game, or because it's better for the player? The two aren't always necessarily aligned.
It's roughly the same mechanic as Corvus. He's immune to bleed damage as long as he has charges.
AA is immune to AAR. Neutralize IS AAR because it's sole purpose is to prevent buffs from happening. So the effect should not proc. Just like Nimrod being immune to Bleed. The effect can't proc because he's immune.