Agent Venom bug - no critical hits / silent nerf?

MappuMappu Posts: 12
edited September 21 in Bugs and Known Issues
Recently I took a fight with R3 Agent Venom with Scorpion/Kraven synergy against Doom in Alliance War boss fight. Agent Venom landed zero critical hits amongst 118 hits landed on Doom. I had sent email to Kabam with the video of the fight, the response was that they are currently investigating. Making a post here so, everyone would be aware of if similar behavior is noticed against Doom or Doom in boss node. Please share.
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Comments

  • ShivacruxShivacrux Posts: 231 ★★

  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 2,914 ★★★★★
    It's very hard to land crits against doom
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12
    edited September 21
    Additional info below.
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12

    It's very hard to land crits against doom

    Shivacrux said:

    Doom has very high critical resistance
    So please don't assume anything that is not in your favour as nerf

    Disagree, same fight and node. Took R5 Kraven and he lands critical hits. Amongst 118 hits chances not to land crit with AV is an anomaly whichever way you slice it to assume.
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 2,914 ★★★★★
    Based on my rudimentary understanding of crit chances and crit resistances. Agent venom at rR as a 6* has just 23% chance to crit. Doom has a 35% crit resistance. So agent venoms 23% has to go agaisnt dooms 35%.

    So in effect venom has 23-35= negative 12% chance to crit. Which is to say never.

    Kraven has increased crit rates which can overcome the crit resistance of Doom. This is just simply numbers. No one is trying to slice anything
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12
    edited September 21

    Based on my rudimentary understanding of crit chances and crit resistances. Agent venom at rR as a 6* has just 23% chance to crit. Doom has a 35% crit resistance. So agent venoms 23% has to go agaisnt dooms 35%.

    So in effect venom has 23-35= negative 12% chance to crit. Which is to say never.

    Kraven has increased crit rates which can overcome the crit resistance of Doom. This is just simply numbers. No one is trying to slice anything

    Haha, I had a good laugh. That’s not how math works. Percentage is the key word. Doom had 35% chance to resist critical hit meaning among say 10 critical hits, Doom will resist 3.5 of those hits from happening as critical.

    Do not think the world you know is everything the world has to offer. There’s much more to learn.

  • Zan0Zan0 Posts: 4,543 ★★★★★
    Mappu said:


    Based on my rudimentary understanding of crit chances and crit resistances. Agent venom at rR as a 6* has just 23% chance to crit. Doom has a 35% crit resistance. So agent venoms 23% has to go agaisnt dooms 35%.

    So in effect venom has 23-35= negative 12% chance to crit. Which is to say never.

    Kraven has increased crit rates which can overcome the crit resistance of Doom. This is just simply numbers. No one is trying to slice anything

    Haha, I had a good laugh. That’s not how math works. Percentage is the key word. Doom had 35% chance to resist critical hit meaning among say 10 critical hits, Doom will resist 3.5 of those hits from happening as critical.

    Do not think the world you know is everything the world has to offer. There’s much more to learn.

    You’re a funny guy because you are so wrong
  • Spiderpig2500Spiderpig2500 Posts: 40
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I am 90% sure that this is how ability accuracy works. For example, if a Champion has a 65% chance to activate a fury buff but an ability from it's opponent decreases the champ's ability accuracy by 65%, then the fury will not trigger. I could be wrong, but this is how I observe it in the game. if this is true, then I don't see why this wouldn't work with Crit Resistance.
  • RasiloverRasilover Posts: 1,167 ★★★★
    You can’t even use Emma in telepath form reliably against doom due to his high crit resistance
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12

    Should be an automatic 120 day ban from posting on the forums when claiming silent nerf when there isn't one.

    Nah, the tag line was to just bring this post some attention. But the math of how critical resistance works is incorrect from the above comments.
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12
    Rasilover said:

    You can’t even use Emma in telepath form reliably against doom due to his high crit resistance

    Reliably is the key word. But there would be always chances but not 0 chance.
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12
    edited September 22
    Zan0 said:

    Mappu said:


    Based on my rudimentary understanding of crit chances and crit resistances. Agent venom at rR as a 6* has just 23% chance to crit. Doom has a 35% crit resistance. So agent venoms 23% has to go agaisnt dooms 35%.

    So in effect venom has 23-35= negative 12% chance to crit. Which is to say never.

    Kraven has increased crit rates which can overcome the crit resistance of Doom. This is just simply numbers. No one is trying to slice anything

    Haha, I had a good laugh. That’s not how math works. Percentage is the key word. Doom had 35% chance to resist critical hit meaning among say 10 critical hits, Doom will resist 3.5 of those hits from happening as critical.

    Do not think the world you know is everything the world has to offer. There’s much more to learn.

    You’re a funny guy because you are so wrong
    My apologies, I didn’t know how to react to that calculation and I reacted badly.

    So, to explain, for example percentage of chance means, “the probability of certain chance occurring in 1 event is 35% means it’s 35% chance. And probability of a chance occurring in 100 events means that 35 events is predicted to have that chance”.
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12
    Again, my apologies if triggered by title of the post. That was just mean to be funny. Any explanations of the above event in fight is welcome.
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12
    Correlating to my above comments, Doom will not resist critical hits on all hits if he has 40% chance for example. Because almost all champions critical rating is at 20%. This example should work with any champions against doom.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Posts: 1,996 ★★★★
    edited September 22
    You are correct that is not at all how percentages work. If they worked In The game like they work in real life.a 23% chance to crit would be multiplied by .65 to give a 35% chance to resist the crit. Meaning he would still have a 14.95% chance to crit, (the 23% is reduced by 35%, you don’t subtract percentages. Where did the 35% number come from though. If that was the case though barely anybody in the game could ever crit doom) I don’t think any champs in the game have a higher than 35% crit rate. I’m not sure anyone here is sure exactly how the resistance number relates to percentages. I’m interested to hear what kabam say. 0/118 does indicate a bug, even high crit resistance doesn’t explain that.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,840 ★★★★★
    First of all, Class Disadvantage.
    Secondly, @DNA3000 could add some perspective in this Thread.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Posts: 1,996 ★★★★
    @GroundedWisdom agent venom is skill, doom is mystic, there’s no class disadvantage
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,840 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    @GroundedWisdom agent venom is skill, doom is mystic, there’s no class disadvantage

    Good catch, I was thinking Venom. The latter statement still stands. He's the best with numbers. Lol.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 15,150 Guardian
    Mappu said:


    Based on my rudimentary understanding of crit chances and crit resistances. Agent venom at rR as a 6* has just 23% chance to crit. Doom has a 35% crit resistance. So agent venoms 23% has to go agaisnt dooms 35%.

    So in effect venom has 23-35= negative 12% chance to crit. Which is to say never.

    Kraven has increased crit rates which can overcome the crit resistance of Doom. This is just simply numbers. No one is trying to slice anything

    Haha, I had a good laugh. That’s not how math works. Percentage is the key word. Doom had 35% chance to resist critical hit meaning among say 10 critical hits, Doom will resist 3.5 of those hits from happening as critical.

    Do not think the world you know is everything the world has to offer. There’s much more to learn.

    Doom does not have a 35% chance to resist critical hits. Doom doesn't even have 35% critical resistance. Doom has (at 6* Rank 4) 1185 critical resistance. What does 1185 critical resistance mean? It means the attacker's critical rating is reduced by 1185.

    Attackers don't have an explicit chance to land a critical hit. They have a critical rating. That critical rating *equates* to some net overall percentage chance to land a critical, given all other factors that may affect critical rating and the challenge rating of the target. There's no "percentage chance" for anything except at the very end of the calculation.

    The 35% critical resistance shown by Auntm.ai presumes 140 challenge rating and zero critical resistance on the target. It is an estimate for context, to give players a rule of thumb about the value of the critical resistance, so they have some vague idea of what it means.

    Even outside of stats affected by Diminishing Returns, percentages do not (generally) interact that way in this game. If something has 100% ability accuracy and something else reduces that by 100%, that nets to zero. But not because -100% AA is always zero. It is because 100% - 100% = 0. Against something with 150% ability accuracy, -100% AA would net to 50% AA. The problem is not the math, the problem is the colloquial description of the math. An effect that does "-100% AA:" is not doing one hundred percent of anything. There is no "percent." There isn't even a one hundred. It is simply subtracting 1.0 from the AA stat. That's all. "Minus one point zero AA stat" is not a transparent description for most players, so this is colloquialized as "minus one hundred percent" and then further to "reduces by one hundred percent." This is ambiguous, because it could mean reduces by one hundred percent of the base value or one hundred percent of the current value. "Percent" literally means "parts out of one hundred." But parts of what? The units aren't specified, which makes the phrase ambiguous.

    In environments where this ambiguity exists (say, in the financial industry) they usually say "Percentage Points" or "Basis points" rather than "percent." However, this is not common colloquial language, and "percent" is still used in this game (and in fact, in most video games).

    Most of the time, stats are computed linearly. Only rarely are stats computed in mathematical proportionalities or percentages. Unfortunately, since the colloquial descriptions are ambiguous, it takes experience to know which way the game is going. But the game is *not* incorrect about its usage of "percent." Rather, it is being unfortunately ambiguous. Anyone wanting to slam Kabam for incorrect use of "percent" on a technicality is technically wrong.
  • So say'eth DNA.

    Actually puts it in nice context, looking at it from the standpoint of the actual #'s instead of percentages.
    If that's how Crit Resistance works (lowering an opponents Crit Rating by that Crit Resistance #), then indeed it is akin to 28% - 35% = 0 chance at Crit'ing (if that results in their Crit Rating # going below 0).

    That Profile Stat should probably be called “Critical Rate Resistance” instead, for it to be more clear that it applies as an offset to Critical Rate (as opposed to a % chance to ignore/prevent the opponent from Crit'ing, or even the alternative potential meaning being reducing/resisting the AMOUNT of Crit damage done aka. lowering opponents Crit Damage Rating).

    As for thinking it would be a 35% chance to prevent a Crit Hit (as hypothesized earlier). When you think of it in terms of it's real # (not as percent), then you would be hard pressed to somehow still say that it has an 1185 (of something) chance (?) at preventing an otherwise Critical Hit.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Posts: 1,996 ★★★★
    Yeah I tried a duel with winter soldier who has the same crit rate and can’t get a crit with him either.
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12
    edited September 23
    Speeds80 said:

    Yeah I tried a duel with winter soldier who has the same crit rate and can’t get a crit with him either.

    So, can we confirm that’s wrong / bug? Because going by DNA’s comments. And the duel we tried.
    R5 HitMonkey vs R3 Doom-
    3097 critical rating hit as the first critical hit.

    R5 HitMonkey vs R3 Blade -
    3500 critical rating hit as the first critical hit.

    — this is how it should behave, reducing critical hit received by Doom.

    You should not see zero critical hit at all.

    Example: Corvus has 0% critical rating if I read correctly the stats right now. Yet, he does critical hits.
  • CaptainaidenCaptainaiden Posts: 310 ★★
    Sometime people always deny he made mistake
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 2,914 ★★★★★
    Mappu said:

    Speeds80 said:

    Yeah I tried a duel with winter soldier who has the same crit rate and can’t get a crit with him either.

    So, can we confirm that’s wrong / bug? Because going by DNA’s comments. And the duel we tried.
    R5 HitMonkey vs R3 Doom-
    3097 critical rating hit as the first critical hit.

    R5 HitMonkey vs R3 Blade -
    3500 critical rating hit as the first critical hit.

    — this is how it should behave, reducing critical hit received by Doom.

    You should not see zero critical hit at all.

    Example: Corvus has 0% critical rating if I read correctly the stats right now. Yet, he does critical hits.
    Just in case you aren't trolling, hit monkey and corvus has guaranteed critical hits
  • MappuMappu Posts: 12

    Mappu said:

    Speeds80 said:

    Yeah I tried a duel with winter soldier who has the same crit rate and can’t get a crit with him either.

    So, can we confirm that’s wrong / bug? Because going by DNA’s comments. And the duel we tried.
    R5 HitMonkey vs R3 Doom-
    3097 critical rating hit as the first critical hit.

    R5 HitMonkey vs R3 Blade -
    3500 critical rating hit as the first critical hit.

    — this is how it should behave, reducing critical hit received by Doom.

    You should not see zero critical hit at all.

    Example: Corvus has 0% critical rating if I read correctly the stats right now. Yet, he does critical hits.
    Just in case you aren't trolling, hit monkey and corvus has guaranteed critical hits
    Hit monkey example was to showcase that it relates to DNA’s explanation. Critical hit number reduced against Doom.

    Corvus example was to showcase that explanation on these numbers aren’t explicit in general. His base critical hit number isn’t mentioned anywhere. Only critical damage bonus if I’m not wrong.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 4,116 ★★★★★
    Mappu said:

    Speeds80 said:

    Yeah I tried a duel with winter soldier who has the same crit rate and can’t get a crit with him either.

    So, can we confirm that’s wrong / bug? Because going by DNA’s comments. And the duel we tried.
    R5 HitMonkey vs R3 Doom-
    3097 critical rating hit as the first critical hit.

    R5 HitMonkey vs R3 Blade -
    3500 critical rating hit as the first critical hit.

    — this is how it should behave, reducing critical hit received by Doom.

    You should not see zero critical hit at all.

    Example: Corvus has 0% critical rating if I read correctly the stats right now. Yet, he does critical hits.
    Mappu, you're really mixing a lot of things up:
    - Critical Resistance reduces the chance for the champion to inflict a critical hit. This is done (as DNA explained) by flat values, not percentages.
    - Critical Resistance cannot reduce guaranteed critical hits.
    - Hit Monkey, Corvus, Ghost (and Kraven) can all inflict guaranteed critical hits.
    - They can therefore ignore Doom's critical Resistance.

    The Damage inflicted by a critical hit is multiplied by the attackers Critical Damage Modifier (after the CDM has been converted into a percentage), not affected their Critical Rate.

    The adjusted damage is then further adjusted by the defenders resistances: Armour, Physical/Energy Resistance, and effects like Critical Damage Resistance (take a look at champion descriptions for Havok and Swamp Thing for champions who can resist critical hits)

    Doom has a high Armour, so he suffers less damage than Blade when Hit Money inflicts a guaranteed critical hit. However he suffers exactly the same number of guaranteed critical hits on MLM combos, because that's how 'guaranteed' works.

    If you want to test this further, try fighting wrongly with Hit Monkey: do traditional MLLLM combos. You'll notice Hit Monkey inflicts more (non-guarenteed) critical Light hits against Blade than he does against Doom; since that's how Doom's critical Resistance protects him.
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