Again, regardless of what you call it, I’m only drawing a parallel between the current situation and the Mole Man situation, a comparison that is obvious and accurate. I’m not here to argue semantics, call it whatever you want. I’m just saying they should do what they did the last time this happened.
Molemans is a lot different than this they have zero comparison dragonman still very useful while Moleman kinda died when he lost his
Once again, this is a bug. His abilities clearly state that you regen from hit damage. When you dex you don't take hit damage. Even if Kabam didn't acknowledge the bug, those are bound to get fixed at any point. Maybe it was low priority because Dragon Man is not used as much as other champions. You knowingly ranked up a champion for something that is not intended, and now when the bug is fixed you cry. Rank down tickets are not needed. My Dragon Man is also at R3 and my opinion of him hasn't changed. He's still a very solid champion
As has already been mentioned both in this thread and yesterday’s, it was clear this was a very obvious bug, and one not a lot of the community knew about either. Regardless of the scape of the bug, putting resources into a champ because of a bug or exploit that isn’t listed in their abilities is a very unwise thing to do. The bug will eventually get patched, and then we get instances like this. If the team gave out rank down tickets every time something like this happened they’d never stop. At the end of the day, this bug and it’s patch don’t make Dragon Man any less of a champ or any less useful.
Not sure if it has been said because I just read the first 3 comments 🤣 But this was not a nerf to dragonman. This was a bug that affected multiple different champions due to some weird issue they had. I know it affected hood someway and that was fixed. Since this was a bug with the engine itself and not the champions themselves says that RDTs shouldn't be given since no part of the champions were changed, just the environment they interacted with in weird ways.
I m against RDTs for bugged champs that got fixed, I was against it in the Mole Man's situation as well. But this, regardless if the community knew about it or not, that s completely irrelevant, if the utility benefited even one player, that's enough.
do you really want to bring up "not working as intended" -> now working as intended...
Good bye quaking (probably would fix with a refresh timer)
Silent "fixes" aren't cool... at least take credit for it and inform players what's going on, so they don't find out the hard ware in say a BG fight.
If something is a significant decrease in utility that was "ridiculous" like the Cull bug when he got released... then extra steps are needed, and upfront conversation about the change and any possible comp should be discussed.
A silent "change" in a release... equals a bug in that it is an undocumented change that either was slyly or maliciously added to nerf, or was a mistake that can be remedied and reverted.
So was it a nerf... or was a bug just put in which should be fixed?
This is identical to the MoleMan situation, I’m lmao reading all the same voices once again telling a player that bugs don’t deserve RDTs regardless of how long they have been in the game. White knights gonna white knight
This is identical to the MoleMan situation, I’m lmao reading all the same voices once again telling a player that bugs don’t deserve RDTs regardless of how long they have been in the game. White knights gonna white knight
IMO, bugs don’t deserve RDTs.
But this isn’t the same as MoleMan either. That bug ran considerably longer, was easier to access, and was unavoidable in many circumstances with normal play style.
Dragon Man bug required first getting to an sp3, knowing the bug existed, and doing unnatural moves to activate the bug.
Regardless, many bugged champs have not gotten RDTs. Most recently Hela. She didn’t lose charges when she had furies. That was most similar to the MoleMan bug as it activated on normal playing.
We need to stop acting like this is legal precedent. If one champ is given RDT, then the others MUST too. Yeah, no.
This is identical to the MoleMan situation, I’m lmao reading all the same voices once again telling a player that bugs don’t deserve RDTs regardless of how long they have been in the game. White knights gonna white knight
This is identical to moleman except for a key point. The description of champs. There is literally no way any one reads the description of Dragon man and goes " Hmm yes, when i Dex a bit that means i got hit and should regenerate".
And as Grounded wisdom mentioned the moleman bug was super easy to access and was ambiguous even among the players even after the bug fix. There's literally no one who thought dragonman was working as intended. It was a fun bug which they knew was gonna get patched at some point
This is identical to the MoleMan situation, I’m lmao reading all the same voices once again telling a player that bugs don’t deserve RDTs regardless of how long they have been in the game. White knights gonna white knight
This is identical to moleman except for a key point. The description of champs. There is literally no way any one reads the description of Dragon man and goes " Hmm yes, when i Dex a bit that means i got hit and should regenerate".
And as Grounded wisdom mentioned the moleman bug was super easy to access and was ambiguous even among the players even after the bug fix. There's literally no one who thought dragonman was working as intended. It was a fun bug which they knew was gonna get patched at some point
That’s not the case, SeatinManOfLegends commented on Dragon Man’s amazing healing potential and utilized the bug several times in a video with over 82k views. He made no indication that this was because of a glitch, he just raved about how awesome it was. I personally took my Dragon Man up after seeing this video some time later. You’ll notice in my original post I didn’t even call it a bug, because to me it was ambiguous. Once you see a piece of utility and have the champion recommended to you, how often do you go “okay, but that showcase might have been a bug… I should do more research.” I personally just open the game and play how I like, no more sleuthing necessary. https://youtu.be/fI2TcezquTw
As has already been mentioned both in this thread and yesterday’s, it was clear this was a very obvious bug, and one not a lot of the community knew about either. Regardless of the scape of the bug, putting resources into a champ because of a bug or exploit that isn’t listed in their abilities is a very unwise thing to do. The bug will eventually get patched, and then we get instances like this. If the team gave out rank down tickets every time something like this happened they’d never stop. At the end of the day, this bug and it’s patch don’t make Dragon Man any less of a champ or any less useful.
Okay, if they’d “never stop” then the SHOULD never stop handing out rank down tickets. I’ll maintain that position. Kabam set a precedent with Mole Man that said “If we publish a character and apparently set them in stone and then leave the player holding the bag and feeling duped when we change a beneficial but unintended part of their kit, we’ll make that right.” As they should, they allowed this whole situation for ages, practically making Dragon Man’s kit de facto. They should hand out rank down tickets because it’s consistent with what they did in the most similar situation.
And you’re just dead wrong about this patch not making Dragon Man any less useful. I used to be able to heal to 100% towards the end most fights, I suffered no chip or recoils damage. Now that’s gone. Wouldn’t you agree that that’s a huge lost piece of utility?
This is identical to the MoleMan situation, I’m lmao reading all the same voices once again telling a player that bugs don’t deserve RDTs regardless of how long they have been in the game. White knights gonna white knight
This is identical to moleman except for a key point. The description of champs. There is literally no way any one reads the description of Dragon man and goes " Hmm yes, when i Dex a bit that means i got hit and should regenerate".
And as Grounded wisdom mentioned the moleman bug was super easy to access and was ambiguous even among the players even after the bug fix. There's literally no one who thought dragonman was working as intended. It was a fun bug which they knew was gonna get patched at some point
I personally just open the game and play how I like, no more sleuthing necessary.
Great. You admit that you don't read champion kits. Congrats on shooting yourself on the foot
This is identical to the MoleMan situation, I’m lmao reading all the same voices once again telling a player that bugs don’t deserve RDTs regardless of how long they have been in the game. White knights gonna white knight
This is identical to moleman except for a key point. The description of champs. There is literally no way any one reads the description of Dragon man and goes " Hmm yes, when i Dex a bit that means i got hit and should regenerate".
And as Grounded wisdom mentioned the moleman bug was super easy to access and was ambiguous even among the players even after the bug fix. There's literally no one who thought dragonman was working as intended. It was a fun bug which they knew was gonna get patched at some point
It’s a champ with a power gain buff allowing incredibly easy access to the SP3 which created the scenario. He wasn’t as popular as MoleMan but don’t tell me this utility was “hard” or “harder to access”. Btw I wouldn’t use a cherry picker infamous for misleading arguments as a basis for anything other than BS
And to add, like the OP has mentioned on multiple occasions, this champion has been this way since release, this “bug” has been well documented by those that use the character.
When looking at the MoleMan fiasco a historical review of Kabam’s approach shows a general inconsistency as to how these things are corrected. They have corrected how the interaction works to perform as intended AND they have revised text to match how the interaction works. To me neither approach is either right nor is it wrong.
What is wrong though is when something has been in the game for over a year and then it is addressed with no fore warning or communication. I’m sure the white knights will say, “but the TOS!”, but after a year of a “bug” in game without Kabam telling players that the interaction is a “bug” and this utility will be addressed nor communicating this via the change log then they in my opinion have created a situation where a player requesting RDTs is a justified and fair request
And to add, like the OP has mentioned on multiple occasions, this champion has been this way since release, this “bug” has been well documented by those that use the character.
When looking at the MoleMan fiasco a historical review of Kabam’s approach shows a general inconsistency as to how these things are corrected. They have corrected how the interaction works to perform as intended AND they have revised text to match how the interaction works. To me neither approach is either right nor is it wrong.
What is wrong though is when something has been in the game for over a year and then it is addressed with no fore warning or communication. I’m sure the white knights will say, “but the TOS!”, but after a year of a “bug” in game without Kabam telling players that the interaction is a “bug” and this utility will be addressed nor communicating this via the change log then they in my opinion have created a situation where a player requesting RDTs is a justified and fair request
You're correct in that it's been showcased but it has never been the subject of focus. I'd bet that in all of the videos that show Dragon man doing this not a single content creator knew this was a bug or unintended. Like Seatins video, he was just hella excited about the regen. He didn't break it down and explain to us how it worked
In all honesty, I think drawing comparisons between Dragonman and any other changed champbisnrayher irrelevant at the core of the issue. And that is that this "utility" has always been a bug. OP says they knew this and reported it. True, it took Kabam a long time to address it, but at its core you KNEW it was a bug. As others have said, any bug is subject to being fixed at any time. The fact that we received compensation in some past instances where such changes were made was a nice thing to have, but no past compensation at all ENTITLES us to similar compensation in future situations.
calling it a nerf is outright lying, it's not a nerf. Giving RDT for this would be ridiculous (not that it has stopped kabam before sadly)
Whether or not you call it a nerf is just semantics. Dragon Man users have a champ today that is not as good as he was prior to being changed by Kabam. Nerf or bug fix, the net result is the same. Whether or not something is a bug is often just semantics. Was he actually bugged in the sense that he was not performing according to his design, or was he performing exactly how he was designed? If you make the wrong thing but it works according to how you made it is that a bug? According to Domino's original description, she is currently bugged. They changed her description so now she is Working as Intended.
At the end of the day, Kabam changed the way a champ has been working since release without warning and without mention in the patch notes. Call it what you like.
calling it a nerf is outright lying, it's not a nerf. Giving RDT for this would be ridiculous (not that it has stopped kabam before sadly)
Whether or not you call it a nerf is just semantics. Dragon Man users have a champ today that is not as good as he was prior to being changed by Kabam. Nerf or bug fix, the net result is the same. Whether or not something is a bug is often just semantics. Was he actually bugged in the sense that he was not performing according to his design, or was he performing exactly how he was designed? If you make the wrong thing but it works according to how you made it is that a bug? According to Domino's original description, she is currently bugged. They changed her description so now she is Working as Intended.
At the end of the day, Kabam changed the way a champ has been working since release without warning and without mention in the patch notes. Call it what you like.
It’s not semantics. A bug is a bug. A nerf is a nerf. If the champion is working differently to how is stated in their kit whether positive or negative, it’s a bug. If they change how a kit works like to something different that affects how they were initially used negatively orange scale numbers down so they or their abilities don’t hit as hard, is a nerf, for example hood when they first re-released him.
While people like to call bug fixes nerfs, they are not the same thing. It may seem like that to them if the bug was beneficial to them, but it is still just a fix that took away the beneficial bug. It can’t be a nerf if the ability or interaction wasn’t meant to be there in the first place.
calling it a nerf is outright lying, it's not a nerf. Giving RDT for this would be ridiculous (not that it has stopped kabam before sadly)
Whether or not you call it a nerf is just semantics. Dragon Man users have a champ today that is not as good as he was prior to being changed by Kabam. Nerf or bug fix, the net result is the same. Whether or not something is a bug is often just semantics. Was he actually bugged in the sense that he was not performing according to his design, or was he performing exactly how he was designed? If you make the wrong thing but it works according to how you made it is that a bug? According to Domino's original description, she is currently bugged. They changed her description so now she is Working as Intended.
At the end of the day, Kabam changed the way a champ has been working since release without warning and without mention in the patch notes. Call it what you like.
It’s not semantics. A bug is a bug. A nerf is a nerf. If the champion is working differently to how is stated in their kit whether positive or negative, it’s a bug. If they change how a kit works like to something different that affects how they were initially used negatively orange scale numbers down so they or their abilities don’t hit as hard, is a nerf, for example hood when they first re-released him.
While people like to call bug fixes nerfs, they are not the same thing. It may seem like that to them if the bug was beneficial to them, but it is still just a fix that took away the beneficial bug. It can’t be a nerf if the ability or interaction wasn’t meant to be there in the first place.
If they decided that the ability was fine and added it to the description he would no longer be bugged. If 6 months after that they decided that regen from dex was too powerful and made the same change they just made, it would then be a nerf. Sounds like its just semantics to me. For the record, I don't use him much and I'm not calling for rank down tickets. I just find the whole "nerf" vs "bug" discussion to be largely irrelevant. I don't like the way it was handled regardless of the preferred label.
In all honesty, I think drawing comparisons between Dragonman and any other changed champbisnrayher irrelevant at the core of the issue. And that is that this "utility" has always been a bug. OP says they knew this and reported it. True, it took Kabam a long time to address it, but at its core you KNEW it was a bug. As others have said, any bug is subject to being fixed at any time. The fact that we received compensation in some past instances where such changes were made was a nice thing to have, but no past compensation at all ENTITLES us to similar compensation in future situations.
Saying that the request is justified because of how an issue was handled, which surprise, was poor, is not the same as saying “players are entitled” to compensation.
After a year+ of a champ bring a certain way I think it’s fair to expect the courtesy of receiving a change statement and rationale prior to executing the change in game to any champion. Minimally this should have been captured in the change log. Neither of these things were done here.
Players discovering a favorite champion has been edited with no explanation through use is unacceptable and may even cost the player items they weren’t expecting to use.
So here's where I think the ultimate Mole Man vs. Dragon Man distinction comes into play here.
For a long time, it wasn't even certain that Mole Man's interaction WAS a bug. His description of the ability was ambiguous, and could easily be misinterpreted as part of his normal kit. It was only when Kabam decided that, no, it wasn't intentional, that it was confirmed as a bug. But because so many people had properly read his kit and determined that the wording could very easily be construed as part of his kit, the action was taken as a nerf due to the way the kit was worded. Kabam's mistake on clarification is the key here as to why the RDT was given out.
She-Hulk is the same. Nowhere did it say you couldn't chain MLLLH, and the fact that she could do it made it part of the kit and a staple to how she worked. When they fixed it, it actively made She-Hulk worse because of a lack of clarification that what she was doing was a bug.
Dragon Man's kit is pretty clear cut that you should not regenerate on dex, as it specifically states you only regen HIT damage. There is absolutely no ambiguity that that's a normal part of his kit. Just because Seatin raves about it doesn't make it part of his kit. It's not Kabam's fault that you ranked up a champ based on a Youtuber's review instead of inspecting the champ yourself and asking these questions. To me, this seems pretty clear-cut-there's no way you could possibly claim that the Dragon Man interaction was intentional, as his kit description pretty definitively speaks against such a possibility. Thus, a bug that gets patched with no compensation.
Dragon Man doesn't really need that if you're playing optimally anyways. It's more optimal to be aggressive while unstoppable, not passive. Mole Man and She-Hulk's kits were optimized with their bugs being part of the rotation.
What bothers me is that, as far as I can tell, they still haven't even acknowledged that he was changed. We are assuming that they changed him without saying anything about it but for all we know they didn't change him and he is currently bugged. I'm sure that isn't actually the case, but the lack of communication is disturbing. Justified or not, they shouldn't change a champ, say nothing about it, and then ignore the threads on the forum. Kabam transparency at its finest.
What bothers me is that, as far as I can tell, they still haven't even acknowledged that he was changed. We are assuming that they changed him without saying anything about it but for all we know they didn't change him and he is currently bugged. I'm sure that isn't actually the case, but the lack of communication is disturbing. Justified or not, they shouldn't change a champ, say nothing about it, and then ignore the threads on the forum. Kabam transparency at its finest.
To be fair they didn't even announce the Guardians of the Galaxy Synergy update either. I'm not saying that it's all a Grand conspiracy but sometimes they don't post everything.
Comments
But this was not a nerf to dragonman. This was a bug that affected multiple different champions due to some weird issue they had. I know it affected hood someway and that was fixed.
Since this was a bug with the engine itself and not the champions themselves says that RDTs shouldn't be given since no part of the champions were changed, just the environment they interacted with in weird ways.
But it was a bug, and now it is fixed, and it would not make sense to hand out RDTs.
And more importantly, if that "utility" was the only reason you uses Dragonman, that's bizarre IMO. He's great in a lot of situations. Mine is at r3.
Good bye quaking (probably would fix with a refresh timer)
Silent "fixes" aren't cool... at least take credit for it and inform players what's going on, so they don't find out the hard ware in say a BG fight.
If something is a significant decrease in utility that was "ridiculous" like the Cull bug when he got released... then extra steps are needed, and upfront conversation about the change and any possible comp should be discussed.
A silent "change" in a release... equals a bug in that it is an undocumented change that either was slyly or maliciously added to nerf, or was a mistake that can be remedied and reverted.
So was it a nerf... or was a bug just put in which should be fixed?
But this isn’t the same as MoleMan either. That bug ran considerably longer, was easier to access, and was unavoidable in many circumstances with normal play style.
Dragon Man bug required first getting to an sp3, knowing the bug existed, and doing unnatural moves to activate the bug.
Regardless, many bugged champs have not gotten RDTs. Most recently Hela. She didn’t lose charges when she had furies. That was most similar to the MoleMan bug as it activated on normal playing.
We need to stop acting like this is legal precedent. If one champ is given RDT, then the others MUST too. Yeah, no.
And as Grounded wisdom mentioned the moleman bug was super easy to access and was ambiguous even among the players even after the bug fix. There's literally no one who thought dragonman was working as intended. It was a fun bug which they knew was gonna get patched at some point
And you’re just dead wrong about this patch not making Dragon Man any less useful. I used to be able to heal to 100% towards the end most fights, I suffered no chip or recoils damage. Now that’s gone. Wouldn’t you agree that that’s a huge lost piece of utility?
When looking at the MoleMan fiasco a historical review of Kabam’s approach shows a general inconsistency as to how these things are corrected. They have corrected how the interaction works to perform as intended AND they have revised text to match how the interaction works. To me neither approach is either right nor is it wrong.
What is wrong though is when something has been in the game for over a year and then it is addressed with no fore warning or communication. I’m sure the white knights will say, “but the TOS!”, but after a year of a “bug” in game without Kabam telling players that the interaction is a “bug” and this utility will be addressed nor communicating this via the change log then they in my opinion have created a situation where a player requesting RDTs is a justified and fair request
At the end of the day, Kabam changed the way a champ has been working since release without warning and without mention in the patch notes. Call it what you like.
While people like to call bug fixes nerfs, they are not the same thing. It may seem like that to them if the bug was beneficial to them, but it is still just a fix that took away the beneficial bug. It can’t be a nerf if the ability or interaction wasn’t meant to be there in the first place.
After a year+ of a champ bring a certain way I think it’s fair to expect the courtesy of receiving a change statement and rationale prior to executing the change in game to any champion. Minimally this should have been captured in the change log. Neither of these things were done here.
Players discovering a favorite champion has been edited with no explanation through use is unacceptable and may even cost the player items they weren’t expecting to use.
For a long time, it wasn't even certain that Mole Man's interaction WAS a bug. His description of the ability was ambiguous, and could easily be misinterpreted as part of his normal kit. It was only when Kabam decided that, no, it wasn't intentional, that it was confirmed as a bug. But because so many people had properly read his kit and determined that the wording could very easily be construed as part of his kit, the action was taken as a nerf due to the way the kit was worded. Kabam's mistake on clarification is the key here as to why the RDT was given out.
She-Hulk is the same. Nowhere did it say you couldn't chain MLLLH, and the fact that she could do it made it part of the kit and a staple to how she worked. When they fixed it, it actively made She-Hulk worse because of a lack of clarification that what she was doing was a bug.
Dragon Man's kit is pretty clear cut that you should not regenerate on dex, as it specifically states you only regen HIT damage. There is absolutely no ambiguity that that's a normal part of his kit. Just because Seatin raves about it doesn't make it part of his kit. It's not Kabam's fault that you ranked up a champ based on a Youtuber's review instead of inspecting the champ yourself and asking these questions. To me, this seems pretty clear-cut-there's no way you could possibly claim that the Dragon Man interaction was intentional, as his kit description pretty definitively speaks against such a possibility. Thus, a bug that gets patched with no compensation.
Dragon Man doesn't really need that if you're playing optimally anyways. It's more optimal to be aggressive while unstoppable, not passive. Mole Man and She-Hulk's kits were optimized with their bugs being part of the rotation.