Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

CometEarth

Delete

Adevati

CometEarth said:

If they want to limit the use of revive then put a limit on it so the skill can prevail. Not limit the "free" revive farm. This thing they are doing shows that the dont mind if you use unit for the revives but only if you use the free ones. What a #### show.

That would be severely unfair for everyone that has yet to complete that content. Much more than it already is by removing revive farming.

CometEarth

Adevati said:

CometEarth said:

If they want to limit the use of revive then put a limit on it so the skill can prevail. Not limit the "free" revive farm. This thing they are doing shows that the dont mind if you use unit for the revives but only if you use the free ones. What a #### show.

That would be severely unfair for everyone that has yet to complete that content. Much more than it already is by removing revive farming.

Its already unfair for everyone that havemt completed already. All those people that farmed them and used them has an advantage

pseudosane

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

Mauled said:

As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.

1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.

The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.

Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.

2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.

Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.

Completely agree @Mauled. Great points.

The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.

Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible

People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.

act1 spam was a revive for 7 energy. GUARANTEED. This one is a high possibility for a revive for 42 energy. Heaven and earth difference.

Mylo_Zyloto

This is a terrible move. I am not a huge potion/revive farmer, but they have come in handy as I progressed toward cavalier and now TB. I play this game a couple hours a day or so but would consider myself in the medium skill level. I am also a FTP player. I feel like this move is specifically targeted toward me. I play and enjoy the game a bit and I am slowly progressing towards higher levels of content, but not spending a dime. Farming some revives and potions are the only way I can maintain my FTP status and that obviously is why I and others in the same boat as me are being targeted by this. Guess what? The *free* farming was not free, it cost a lot of energy already and forced me to use energy revives as well, this was enough of a deterrent to make it so I didn’t farm all of the time. Leave that piece of meta alone.

I had recently considered spending some in this game but this move has made me vow to NEVER spend in mcoc.

Kingcole1

Typical kabam logic farming revives & using them is bad. but spending money on revives is perfectly fine to spam as much as you want. I give up.🤦🏾‍♂️Good luck destroying your own game. The players who play the game doesn’t matter. I will never stop saying kabam only cares about MONEY. if kabam wants more money just say it. Don’t beat around the bush you hypocrites.

pseudosane

There is a mega thread regarding this kabam is just gonna merge it.

Coppin

Coming Soon, revive monthly cards...
Get 1 lvl 1 revive and 2 lvl 2 health pots everyday u log in...

Terminatrix

pseudosane said:

There is a mega thread regarding this kabam is just gonna merge it.

Ok i have no issues with that

GroundedWisdom

Scott_Summers82 said:

@GroundedWisdom can you please explain to me in detail how you came to this conclusion:

"I do agree that the exploitation of lower Resources has been an issue for some time"

An issue for you? How does 'exploitation of lower resources' affect your gaming experience?
Also, why is using in game items earned from using the energy provided to you within the game exploitation? I think a bunch of exploited people just called and want your ear for a bit.

I didn't say for me, but it includes me insomuch as I'm a part of this game, so not directly.
When I say exploit, I don't mean in the sense of an actual "exploit". I mean exploitation in terms of taking advantage of it. How is it bad for the game? There are natural limitations that exist to pace growth. We can acquire and save a number of Resources through playing and Events, and spending if we choose, but anyone can buy anything *if* they have the funds. So that's a natural limitation in and of itself.
Not everyone is meant to brute force their way through everything the second it comes out. Is this particularly egregious? Not really. It's been happening for years and years. Games are usually accompanied by "hacks" that are shared among Players, ways to make it easier.
From a design perspective in a game like this, it places huge strains and limitations on the intended pace of growth. Instead of Players progressing naturally, they end up speeding through the content by way of something designed to help newer Players starting out. That is the intent of those Resources. Not "Kabam knew we did it so that's what they intended.".
To put it in simpler terms, it's bad for the game, and by extension the Players.

Certi

Rustyoneil said:

I think if you’re a Paragon player like me, you have a great opportunity to reevaluate how you play this game. If you have no incentive to clear content, you don’t need to spend any more money on this game. You can easily farm units and wait for unit sales every 3 months, which will give you the same rewards, if not more than clearing content.
.

This is a ridiculous post. I am a new Paragon player and have, and never will, spend a single penny on this game, I have been F2P since 2015, leaving the game in 2017, and returning last year, starting from Conquerer, pushing to Paragon, without spending at all. Although farming units is indeed one of the ways a fully F2P player progresses, arena is incredibly time consuming, draining and outdated. Revive farming is one of the ways I was able to complete EOP, I admit I spend a decent amount of units from arena grinding, but my main system included relying on farmed revives. Removing this feature completely limits what a F2P player can do in this game. Tackling larger content is where the majority of the incentive to play this game lies, being fun, challenging, and rewarding. The new system will essentially limit myself and many others to being able to even ATTEMPT content like this theoretically, once a month. I don't have the resources to be able to grind arena 24/7, buy unit deals AND also save up for the more significant events in the game, e.g., July 4th. This new system eliminates the incentive for F2P players to even want to tackle content in this game, for you, this may be a 'great opportunity to reevaluate how you play this game', but for the majority of players, it closes off the content you can even focus on.

GroundedWisdom

pseudosane said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

Mauled said:

As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.

1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.

The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.

Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.

2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.

Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.

Completely agree @Mauled. Great points.

The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.

Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible

People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.

act1 spam was a revive for 7 energy. GUARANTEED. This one is a high possibility for a revive for 42 energy. Heaven and earth difference.

To the tune of how many people were amassing because they were dedicating all their Energy to it? It wasn't just a Rev here and there.

Bugmat78

Sachhyam257 said:

Wait until they announce that the special ability for 7*s is that they have a built in revive. Will fit in perfectly with this mess...

I wouldn't be at all shocked if this was really true... that's how bad things have gotten.

Etm34

If revive spamming wasn’t designed, and farming revives is unfair, can you provide the data for the amount of users who have completed the following content without revives?

Abyss of Legends
Carina vol. 1 LOL challenges (ESPECIALLY 4* SL)
EOP Grief
EOP acceptance
Carina vol. 3 EOP challenges

Genuinely, what’s the data for amount of people who’ve either completed reviveless, or under whatever amount you deem acceptable (let’s say 17 total since that’s the inventory count)?

If it’s less than 1% of the playerbase (it is), then your issue isn’t revive spamming. It’s FREE revive spamming. Just don’t treat us like we’re idiots here, we know what this is

Disgruntled_User_123

This revive nerf may be the end of the game for me. I just can’t understand why they wouldn’t have a better solution.

Health potions are outdated - everyone knows they should be % based rather than an incremental number.

Revives only help so much - and revive farming takes considerable time and effort

Storage - if we only have the capacity for 15 revives, that’s just never going to be enough for content like LoL with a 4 star Starlord.

The difficult content is designed to make the players use revives.

I just see this as the most tone dead and distasteful decision by Kabam… I’ve been here for 6 years but I think this may be it for me.

It shouldn’t take a very understandable and predictable community outrage response did Kabam to reconsider their stance.

No conversation with the CCP? What are they there for?

It’s just sickening.

Skunkcabbage

GroundedWisdom said:

pseudosane said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

Mauled said:

As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.

1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.

The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.

Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.

2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.

Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.

Completely agree @Mauled. Great points.

The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.

Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible

People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.

act1 spam was a revive for 7 energy. GUARANTEED. This one is a high possibility for a revive for 42 energy. Heaven and earth difference.

To the tune of how many people were amassing because they were dedicating all their Energy to it? It wasn't just a Rev here and there.

Who was dedicating all their energy to it? Do you have figures to back up your allegations?

GroundedWisdom

Skunkcabbage said:

GroundedWisdom said:

pseudosane said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

Mauled said:

As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.

1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.

The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.

Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.

2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.

Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.

Completely agree @Mauled. Great points.

The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.

Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible

People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.

act1 spam was a revive for 7 energy. GUARANTEED. This one is a high possibility for a revive for 42 energy. Heaven and earth difference.

To the tune of how many people were amassing because they were dedicating all their Energy to it? It wasn't just a Rev here and there.

Who was dedicating all their energy to it? Do you have figures to back up your allegations?

Evidently they do. These things aren't decided without data to support it.

Stature

DNA3000 said:

G_S_H said:

Sw0rdMaster said:

This might explain the changes.

Yes this is what I posted above in a previous comment, they lost $700 million and are forcing Kabam to fill in the gap

This is a serious question. Do people actually think this is how companies work?

Scratch that. I don't really want to know. Let's talk accounting, something that few gaming company reporters and even fewer game players know anything about. Here's an excerpt from Netmarble's consolidated income statement, which was probably the source of the articles numbers:



This shows that Netmarble actually earned 40 billion won (about $31 million USD) in the fourth quarter and 46+22+21+40 = 129 billion won ($99 million USD) in 2022.

Because these losses are not actual cash flow losses but just accounting losses, this may be deliberate and advantageous to the company. Without knowing the specifics, we might just be seeing a clever CFO playing the game properly. But Netmarble is not losing millions of dollars.

[My wife is a CPA and I helped her study for the CPA exam. I'm a lot more familiar with GAAP and IFRS than I really want to be, but occasionally its useful.]

You are absolutely right that the company is not losing millions of dollars. Without other parts of the financials I wouldn't comment on the profitability of the company. Based on that image, the only inference I would draw is that there is a lot of internal pressure to increase revenues. The latest revenues are down compared to the same period of last year, and there was no real change in costs. One more similar year, and they would be in the red if costs cannot be reduced.

They are profitable but I would assume they are not generating a lot of resources to invest significantly on new or existing assets. While you are correct that D&A represents spreading out of costs already incurred, practically some of those costs are recuring in nature. E.g If one bought a set of servers many years ago, that's a big expense initially but generates revenue over time. This is the kind of expense that get depreciated or amortized. But servers also need to be replaced or repaired. D&A, in a way represents the cost of keeping those long term assets in a working order. If the company's profits don't cover the D&A expense, I would worry.

GAAP & IFRS exist for a reason. Losses reported do mean something. Does not mean that the company is losing millions of dollars consistently but neither does it mean that they are in great financial health and the losses are only optical.

I don't know if this decision was impacted by the need to raise revenues. It could be one of the considerations, maybe not. Too many variables here to make that assessment. I would expect that if there is a revenue impact, the change would be rolled back.

Adevati

CometEarth said:

Adevati said:

CometEarth said:

If they want to limit the use of revive then put a limit on it so the skill can prevail. Not limit the "free" revive farm. This thing they are doing shows that the dont mind if you use unit for the revives but only if you use the free ones. What a #### show.

That would be severely unfair for everyone that has yet to complete that content. Much more than it already is by removing revive farming.

Its already unfair for everyone that havemt completed already. All those people that farmed them and used them has an advantage

Yes, but it would be considerably worse if they limited item use. Even with this change, one can still farm Arena for units and buy a ton of revives and brute force the content. If you limit items; you can no longer do that. Take this example:

Scenario 1 (revive farm nerf):
Player in Earth-1. Farmed 50 revives and completed content prior to nerf.

Same player in Earth-2. Cannot farm 50 revives, but farms 10. Then farms Arena for units and buys 40. Completes content. Takes more time, but content is completed.

Scenario 2 (content item use limit):
Player in Earth-1. Farmed 50 revives and completed content prior to nerf.

Same player in Earth-2. Farms Arena and buys 50 revives. Content limited to 10 revives. Player does not have the skill to complete in 10 revives. Player cannot complete content.

In scenario 1, player in Earth-2 is nerfed by having to spend considerably more time farming units for revives.

In scenario 2, player in Earth-2 is required to greatly increase skill in order to complete content. This may never happen. If it does, is significantly harder than extra Arena farming.

Lee99

I have spend the entire day reading all the posts and watching almost the YouTuber and is clear that they are against the farming revive change.

3 guys that are in my alliance retired we are plat4. BG and LAG are best solutions given, but sadly we know it's not going to be implemented.

I don't care about eop because the revives are limited anyways. Kabam is telling you that skill would allow you to beat any eop defender with pi over 100k.

I can afford to buy units for revive luckily buy now I am reverting to free-to-play.

Chuck_Finley

Congratulations Kabam - based on our alliance chat.. you have just increased the number non-spenders as predicted.

Genius level stuff. This announcement in this state of the game is in such poor taste…
31 pages of complaints still doesn’t do it justice.

Sunstruck

Don't like the decision. Request give your feedback to Play Store and ITunes. Rate the game down. Writing here simply waste of time. Kabam can't handle criticism. They can't catch cheaters, can't release any major content without major issues. They finding way to increase their revenue. As they are incompetent to introduce fun and get more new players in. Really disappointed. Waiting for change in Kabam to get back the fun we used to have. Hope for the best.

Buttehrs

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

Mauled said:

As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.

1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.

The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.

Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.

2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.

Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.

Completely agree @Mauled. Great points.

The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.

Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible

People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.

Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed

Huh?

How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.

How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that?
The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....

Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…

Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.

Wrong. The problem is kabam creating content that requires massive amounts of revives and then saying you can't farm said revives. You must pay for them with cash/units. That's their problem. Not ours.

AverageDesi

I agree with KT 1. The easy revive spam has taken the challenge out of new content for me personally at least. EOP was more about how many revives should I farm before I can brute force through rather than best team build and how many tries to go through before I can complete it.

Abyss took a lot of planning since I wasn't that into revive farming back then and felt very satisfying to complete. EOP felt like just another quest to get my rank 5.

But when you have challenges like Carina Starlord which are impossible to do with around 60-70 revives which is much more than the revive cap, it means the only way you can do it is by spending units or by getting 1 revive each day which means you'll be locked in the content for probably weeks before you can get out. That is messed up.

GroundedWisdom

Buttehrs said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

GroundedWisdom said:

BigBlueOx said:

Mauled said:

As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.

1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.

The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.

Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.

2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.

Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.

Completely agree @Mauled. Great points.

The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.

Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible

People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.

Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed

Huh?

How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.

How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that?
The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....

Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…

Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.

Wrong. The problem is kabam creating content that requires massive amounts of revives and then saying you can't farm said revives. You must pay for them with cash/units. That's their problem. Not ours.

It's everyone's problem. Aside from the fact that the design needs to evolve over time to match that farming, as the game is created in part by the data results, it's also a case of people not being patient enough. You don't need to farm like mad to do content. You can save Resources and wait. Yet people are in the habit of wanting to do it the second it comes out.

Shevvel

I completed 2 eop challenges so far. now 4 more left and will have to do 3 more times(All Juggs one time) usually have 1.5k in hand and farm 45-50 L1s. so spending would be little less or more than 1k units (Average player not having hercules) now I will prepare 25L1s and have 2.5K units (1.5 to 2K units may be needed per run). will be boring to grind arenas. I think this change will make me to quit at least for sometime.

Chobbly

Excellent video from RichTheMan, taking an EOP run he's done as a case study for how long it will take to get those same number of revives together under the changes. Just thought I'd share it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d8dzVA3SvDc

MSTR_FSTR1

Kabam has not been able to create consecutive end game content without major glitches and this where they take a stand?

1. Black widow boss in 8.2 had visual bugs requiring extra revives.
2. Superior Kang would crash when you got him to last phase in one shot
3. Merc variant boss venompool wasn’t able to be beaten with any merc champ before nerf
4. Consistent modding in BGs
5. Consistent immune defenders in previously cav EQ which were supposed to grant bonuses to the attacker like bleed or chock placed on paths.

I could go on but like this discussion is now over, I have deleted the game app and will not return. After 7 years of playing and having fun I will find something better to do with my time.

Thank you

Dirty_Dozz

The biggest slap in the face is "You shouldn't have to rely on RNG to get Revives", and then what do they do? "Here's a new daily quest, involving RNG to make it worthwhile.

Not to mention including level 1 and 2 potions. Absolutely worthless.

BigBlueOx

MSTR_FSTR1 said:

Kabam has not been able to create consecutive end game content without major glitches and this where they take a stand?

1. Black widow boss in 8.2 had visual bugs requiring extra revives.
2. Superior Kang would crash when you got him to last phase in one shot
3. Merc variant boss venompool wasn’t able to be beaten with any merc champ before nerf
4. Consistent modding in BGs
5. Consistent immune defenders in previously cav EQ which were supposed to grant bonuses to the attacker like bleed or chock placed on paths.

I could go on but like this discussion is now over, I have deleted the game app and will not return. After 7 years of playing and having fun I will find something better to do with my time.

Thank you

Great point about the Widow boss, no compensation for that either, and the revive farm made that acceptable