Why will the potion overhaul take months?

Hey Kabam. Thank you for finally addressing the disparity between the current potion system and current champ healthpools.

You said the switch to percentage based health potions can take up to six months. Why is this? Why would tweaking poitons and making them percentage based take such a long time?

I also feel this should be one of the top priorities for the team, being that this is much much long overdue.

If you can, please shed some light as to why the timeline given for this is so far out.

Comments

Furrymoosen

A couple months alone will probably be data collecting. Could they have that data now? Sure, but the heals are so out of date that I would believe that they just haven’t cared to gather any data before this decision. They’re not just going to prescribe a certain percentage to certain heals without gathering the data on the overall impact to both the summoner experience and the economic impact. As easy as it is for us to say just start at 10% with L1 and add 10% or whatever to each level, this is Kabam and they’re not going to make it that easy on themselves.

Eb0ny-O-M4w

Is normally how they operate. They first add the problem and then later on the line they add the solution.

They do it with champs, content, now items as well

Truthseeker

7 stars

GroundedWisdom

Is normally how they operate. They first add the problem and then later on the line they add the solution.

They do it with champs, content, now items as well

Interesting conspiracy. My take is they actually respond to what people communicate in as quickly a manner as possible.

To answer the OP, it takes time to consider all sides and data, and it takes time to design solutions that are workable. That adds to an already-existing workload.

Feeney234

Design solutions? Literally just make them percentage based and not a flat value. Im no game programmer, but this doesnt seem like a very daunting task.

unknown

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Pikolu

Design solutions? Literally just make them percentage based and not a flat value. Im no game programmer, but this doesnt seem like a very daunting task.

If they did that, what % would be fair? How should kabam change their availability? Will this change negatively impact lower progression players?

As of right now level 3 health potions are super easy to get via RoL farming and TB free crystals. These are sources that will need to be changed if level 3 health potions give literally only 10% health. I could spend a few minutes with my r3 6* CGR beating up RoL WS and Co and have enough potions to fully heal my boosted 6* r4s and r5s. If I was really determined I could get about 70+ of these potions on one bar of energy, no energy refills required.

There are many variables outside of the potions themselves that will need to be considered before kabam can add them in.

Feeney234

Design solutions? Literally just make them percentage based and not a flat value. Im no game programmer, but this doesnt seem like a very daunting task.
If they did that, what % would be fair? How should kabam change their availability? Will this change negatively impact lower progression players?

As of right now level 3 health potions are super easy to get via RoL farming and TB free crystals. These are sources that will need to be changed if level 3 health potions give literally only 10% health. I could spend a few minutes with my r3 6* CGR beating up RoL WS and Co and have enough potions to fully heal my boosted 6* r4s and r5s. If I was really determined I could get about 70+ of these potions on one bar of energy, no energy refills required.

There are many variables outside of the potions themselves that will need to be considered before kabam can add them in.

Well maybe they shouldnt have waited so long for this 😂 better get to work. Still pretty rediculous though that their timeline is literally half a year. Thats not good enough, but thats just my opinion.

Mother_Flerken

Is normally how they operate. They first add the problem and then later on the line they add the solution.

They do it with champs, content, now items as well
Interesting conspiracy. My take is they actually respond to what people communicate in as quickly a manner as possible.

To answer the OP, it takes time to consider all sides and data, and it takes time to design solutions that are workable. That adds to an already-existing workload.

Ah yes because only recently have potions been brought up, definitely don't remember any posts years ago requesting potions be updated or switched to percentage based values..

You truly will argue against anything 👏

GroundedWisdom

Is normally how they operate. They first add the problem and then later on the line they add the solution.

They do it with champs, content, now items as well
Interesting conspiracy. My take is they actually respond to what people communicate in as quickly a manner as possible.

To answer the OP, it takes time to consider all sides and data, and it takes time to design solutions that are workable. That adds to an already-existing workload.
Ah yes because only recently have potions been brought up, definitely don't remember any posts years ago requesting potions be updated or switched to percentage based values..

You truly will argue against anything 👏

Many things have been brought up. That doesn't mean they were feasible, workable, or ideal at the time. There's a difference between want versus need.

Buttehrs

I dont think they explicitly stated they would be percentage based. All they said was they were redoing pots.

Mother_Flerken

Is normally how they operate. They first add the problem and then later on the line they add the solution.

They do it with champs, content, now items as well
Interesting conspiracy. My take is they actually respond to what people communicate in as quickly a manner as possible.

To answer the OP, it takes time to consider all sides and data, and it takes time to design solutions that are workable. That adds to an already-existing workload.
Ah yes because only recently have potions been brought up, definitely don't remember any posts years ago requesting potions be updated or switched to percentage based values..

You truly will argue against anything 👏
Many things have been brought up. That doesn't mean they were feasible, workable, or ideal at the time. There's a difference between want versus need.

Exactly so they don't respond to what people communicate in as quickly a manner as possible, they responds when it is the ideal time, well after the problem is added. Thank you for clarifying that 👍

Bugmat78

I dont think they explicitly stated they would be percentage based. All they said was they were redoing pots.

Correct, and that is the worst part of that post.

If you looked at the data from November 2021 on how much users were revive farming, and why, you should have started analysing the data on pot usage and integrate that into your solution for removing the "infinite" revives. The data on pot farming has been around for years but it was an agreeable situation on the design end so no improvements were made.

Ad to people saying they don't have the data - every resource used in the game is stored in their databases - they just have to focus in and pull it. It's exactly how they noticed and then analysed the impact of the revive farming.

For years people have posted on this forum asking for percent-based health pots - it is not news to Kabam. These requests have been ignored it because it suited their game economy for players to (a) spend massive time engaged in game (having to farm their free pots) (b) spending to overcome the handicap of the current limited health restoration system.

Mackey

Is normally how they operate. They first add the problem and then later on the line they add the solution.

They do it with champs, content, now items as well
Interesting conspiracy. My take is they actually respond to what people communicate in as quickly a manner as possible.

To answer the OP, it takes time to consider all sides and data, and it takes time to design solutions that are workable. That adds to an already-existing workload.
Ah yes because only recently have potions been brought up, definitely don't remember any posts years ago requesting potions be updated or switched to percentage based values..

You truly will argue against anything 👏
Many things have been brought up. That doesn't mean they were feasible, workable, or ideal at the time. There's a difference between want versus need.

Also doesn't mean they weren't ideal, workable or feasible either 👍. There also a difference between caring and listening

Mackey

Is normally how they operate. They first add the problem and then later on the line they add the solution.

They do it with champs, content, now items as well
Interesting conspiracy. My take is they actually respond to what people communicate in as quickly a manner as possible.

To answer the OP, it takes time to consider all sides and data, and it takes time to design solutions that are workable. That adds to an already-existing workload.
Ah yes because only recently have potions been brought up, definitely don't remember any posts years ago requesting potions be updated or switched to percentage based values..

You truly will argue against anything 👏

He truly will. You could tell him the sky isn't Blue and he'll argue it is lol

Mackey

Have they actually said its going to be changed to % based potions? All I recall them saying is that it needs an overhaul 🤔 I hope they do go % based, it's certainly needed these days but I have a feeling they won't do that

Furrymoosen

I dont think they explicitly stated they would be percentage based. All they said was they were redoing pots.
Ad to people saying they don't have the data - every resource used in the game is stored in their databases - they just have to focus in and pull it. It's exactly how they noticed and then analysed the impact of the revive farming.

Sure, they have data, but that data is no longer accurate or useful with the changes to revive farming. Players are likely to be using less, or trying to use less, revives, which means the need for heals goes up. Certainly some heals were used during the revive farming free-for-all, but being able to easily farm revives almost definitely resulted, depending on the fights, in players using less heals because revives were cheaper, easier to farm, and gave more health than the only farmable heals.
They’re going to need new data as they see how the change to revives impacts things. Revives are now worth a little more than they were, which means heals are going to be a more important investment into trying to use less revives.

Rohit_316

Because what will benefit players , will take months ...but what won't , will be taken away really fast. Revive farm was the only thing not taken away from us in all this time.

Chuck_Finley

Clearly the development and integration of relic specific nodes are far more important.

unknown

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AverageDesi

Design solutions? Literally just make them percentage based and not a flat value. Im no game programmer, but this doesnt seem like a very daunting task.

They can change it into percentage. But how much. What's the value a 375 health potions needs to be converted to? What's the percentage a 10k potions be converted to?

Should it be dependent on other factors?

If say a 375 health pot becomes a 10% health potions, that would make all others redundant since these are super accessible. Then they would have to change the availability of these potions across crsytals. Not to mention if you were to make a 5k potions into a 50% potion, that would mean players who use this for lower star champions would have a problem since it is now less value

pseudosane

Design solutions? Literally just make them percentage based and not a flat value. Im no game programmer, but this doesnt seem like a very daunting task.
They can change it into percentage. But how much. What's the value a 375 health potions needs to be converted to? What's the percentage a 10k potions be converted to?

Should it be dependent on other factors?

If say a 375 health pot becomes a 10% health potions, that would make all others redundant since these are super accessible. Then they would have to change the availability of these potions across crsytals. Not to mention if you were to make a 5k potions into a 50% potion, that would mean players who use this for lower star champions would have a problem since it is now less value

to be fair, even newer players have access to 4* day1. no new player uses 2* beyond day1.

AverageDesi

Design solutions? Literally just make them percentage based and not a flat value. Im no game programmer, but this doesnt seem like a very daunting task.
They can change it into percentage. But how much. What's the value a 375 health potions needs to be converted to? What's the percentage a 10k potions be converted to?

Should it be dependent on other factors?

If say a 375 health pot becomes a 10% health potions, that would make all others redundant since these are super accessible. Then they would have to change the availability of these potions across crsytals. Not to mention if you were to make a 5k potions into a 50% potion, that would mean players who use this for lower star champions would have a problem since it is now less value
to be fair, even newer players have access to 4* day1. no new player uses 2* beyond day1.

True. But the potions had incredible value in v8(?)

BigBlueOx

I dont think they explicitly stated they would be percentage based. All they said was they were redoing pots.
Ad to people saying they don't have the data - every resource used in the game is stored in their databases - they just have to focus in and pull it. It's exactly how they noticed and then analysed the impact of the revive farming.
Sure, they have data, but that data is no longer accurate or useful with the changes to revive farming. Players are likely to be using less, or trying to use less, revives, which means the need for heals goes up. Certainly some heals were used during the revive farming free-for-all, but being able to easily farm revives almost definitely resulted, depending on the fights, in players using less heals because revives were cheaper, easier to farm, and gave more health than the only farmable heals.
They’re going to need new data as they see how the change to revives impacts things. Revives are now worth a little more than they were, which means heals are going to be a more important investment into trying to use less revives.

I’m sure they have data from before the farm, or at the least content designers from before then. I can agree that it is slightly more complex than just switching to percentage based in theory as L1, L2, L3, and L4 potions were designed with 1-4 star health pools in mind and that progression journey, at least that’s my base line assumption based on the amount of health they provide, and the colors of the potions compared to the champion border, and applying some assumed logic… I’ve left out aw/AQ/incursions as that logic isn’t as easy to estimate but here’s what it looks like:

Black= L1 Potion 375 heal value, 1star healthpool of approx. 1200hp
Bronze= L2 Potion 750 heal value, 2 star healthpool of approx. 2500
Silver= L3 Potion 1650 heal value, 3 star healthpool of approx. 6400
Gold= L4 Potion 5000 heal value, 4 star healthpool of approx. 14000
Purple (color deviation but understandable due to potion color vs 5star boarder)= L5 Potion 10000 heal value, 5 star healthpool of approx. 32000
Teal Blue= L6 Potion 15000 heal value, 6 star healthpool of approx. 55000

With it laid out, you could more or less argue that the biggest issue with the potion economy isn’t relative value of the potions but the stinginess of their availability to the players that rely or utilize a certain champion tier. Simply put after 4 stars relevant potions have been put into a pay to acquire tier only (with units or dollars). The simplest solution is to address that by making them available through playing relevant content for their needed application like introducing the potions to the quests meant for a certain tier of champion based on the rates that L1s and L2s can be found in EQ, not putting L3s in TB difficulty… that’s just silly, we liked it because if the Scrooged approached to date, but it’s gross IMO.

Now this approach might kill another potion farm in ROL to balance things, but personally I’d prefer less pointless grinding so I’d be ok, although I’m sure that’s be controversial and I may be tar and feathered for it’s suggestion

BigBlueOx

All said though, it’s pretty wild that it will take 6 months to implement larger potions in places where smaller ones already spawn in EQ or in Story content.

NearJr

I assume potions are a big part of the game economy, hence it takes a lot of time to calculate the impact.
If, lets say, level 4 potions amount to X,XXX units spent each month, they would need to recalculate how the new potions would impact economy.

If they come out with an 80% health potion, but it costs 150 units, would people buy it? I know its dumb to say it, but 80% health recovery of a 6* is not the same as 80% health recovery of a 4*. Would a Conqueror player spend 150 units to almost fully heal a 4* in this hypothetical scenario? Would a Paragon player?

It "seems" like an easy fix, but in reality, this issue affects a large part of the game and the entire player base in completely different ways.

They might have the data, but coming up with a viable solution seems pretty difficult to me.
Coming up with a solution that everyone will like? That's impossible.

Kabam Miike

Let's please not start spreading rumours. First, we have not decided what a change to Potions would look like. We never said the words "Percentage based," though that is a possibility. Let's not set expectations of our own because that only leads to disappointment when those expectations are not met.

Re-balancing what is arguably one of the largest areas of the game is not easy, and it takes time. Potions touch so much of the game, and we need to spend time to analyze Data and explore options.

Typhoon

Re-balancing what is arguably one of the largest areas of the game is not easy, and it takes time.

Out of curiosity, how many months went into assessing and implementing the Apothecary?

BigBlueOx

Let's please not start spreading rumours. First, we have not decided what a change to Potions would look like. We never said the words "Percentage based," though that is a possibility. Let's not set expectations of our own because that only leads to disappointment when those expectations are not met.

Re-balancing what is arguably one of the largest areas of the game is not easy, and it takes time. Potions touch so much of the game, and we need to spend time to analyze Data and explore options.

I will only offer is part of the community impatience is for the obvious nerfing of the farm recent event, but this is also an area of the game that feels woefully neglected so it’s a bit frustrating that not much seriousness was given here

Qwerty12345

Much like many other large efforts, taking the time for the long term solution is find... and that's fine... but that doesn't mean a short term workaround isn't also doable.

For example, while waiting for the long term potions, increate the number available now to summoners in a weekly package similar to what was done about 20 months ago while long term input issues were being looked into so that summoners weren't penalized in the short term? Another option would be to simply increase the amount of health portions restore.