Rintrah Neutralize On Spidey 2099

Rintrah Neutralize ability should not work on Spidey 2099 since Spidey can't gain buffs. Spidey 2099s debuff pausing icon that pops up when he evades is not a buff but Rintrahs Neutralize prevents it. Thus needs to be fixed.

Comments

I_tell_no_tales_1

Rintrah Neutralize ability should not work on Spidey 2099 since Spidey can't gain buffs. Spidey 2099s debuff pausing icon that pops up when he evades is not a buff but Rintrahs Neutralize prevents it. Thus needs to be fixed.

Neutralize prevents Spidey from gaining buffs
Spidey gains his pause passive in place of Dexterity buff
Rintrah's neutralize prevents him from gaining Dexterity so Spidey cannot "trade" dex buff for the pause passive so he doesn't gain pause passive

Maratox

You can’t be immune to an effect that was prevented from being placed by AAR

Terra

For a fun note, Spidey's small resistance icon gains actually count for Galan's Armor Harvest gain.

Chosen85

Rintrah Neutralize ability should not work on Spidey 2099 since Spidey can't gain buffs. Spidey 2099s debuff pausing icon that pops up when he evades is not a buff but Rintrahs Neutralize prevents it. Thus needs to be fixed.
Neutralize prevents Spidey from gaining buffs
Spidey gains his pause passive in place of Dexterity buff
Rintrah's neutralize prevents him from gaining Dexterity so Spidey cannot "trade" dex buff for the pause passive so he doesn't gain pause passive

Thats not how it's described. It's not a passive that does anything. It's not a buff (active or passive). It just signals that he paused placed debuffs. Therefore neutralize should have no effect. He "cannot cain buffs."

Chosen85

Rintrah's Neutralize doesn't prevent him from gaining Dexterity. Spiderman 2099 does. By not being able to gain buffs. If that's not the case, his description needs to be changed.

Chosen85

You can’t be immune to an effect that was prevented from being placed by AAR

It's not being prevented bc 2099 can't gain it in the first place. The debuff pausing icon is only supposed to show how much time you have left on the pause effect. It's not a buff passive or otherwise.

Ghostboytjie

It works like this.

Spidey2099 dex = activate buff

Since he cannot gain buffs = the dex buff is prevented. And he pauses the debuffs

Since neutralise also stops buffs from happening. It will rather take Neutralise and the buff will not "trigger" to be prevented hence it will stop it from activating before spidey2099's "cannot gain buffs" kicks in

Wasy1

It works like this.

Spidey2099 dex = activate buff

Since he cannot gain buffs = the dex buff is prevented. And he pauses the debuffs

Since neutralise also stops buffs from happening. It will rather take Neutralise and the buff will not "trigger" to be prevented hence it will stop it from activating before spidey2099's "cannot gain buffs" kicks in

Lol, Rintrah ability doesn't say it will prevent dex effects, neutralize supposed to prevent gaining buffs not effects, and spidey99 doesn't gain buffs OP is right Kabam needs to fix this

CyborgNinja135

It works like this.

Spidey2099 dex = activate buff

Since he cannot gain buffs = the dex buff is prevented. And he pauses the debuffs

Since neutralise also stops buffs from happening. It will rather take Neutralise and the buff will not "trigger" to be prevented hence it will stop it from activating before spidey2099's "cannot gain buffs" kicks in
Lol, Rintrah ability doesn't say it will prevent dex effects, neutralize supposed to prevent gaining buffs not effects, and spidey99 doesn't gain buffs OP is right Kabam needs to fix this

No. The way it works makes perfect sense. Let's say Nick attempts to bleed Thing. Naturally, the "immune" text will pop up. Now let's say Nick currently has his offensive AA reduced by 100% due to some node. Will the "immune" text pop up? The answer is no because AAR is preventing the bleed from attempting to trigger in the first place. Same thing happens with neutralize and buff immunity. Neutralize is preventing the dexterity buff from attempting to trigger in the first place so Spidey's immunity check never happens.

Bugmat78

This came up with Wiccan neutralise. It's just how the game is cuffed. It doesn't really make sense in terms of ability descriptions but this is how the game is coded and it makes sense in that aspect. Because each buff has to apply before it is removed SM2099 is suffering from the buff immunity. Thus neutralise can work on him and any other buff immune champ. I don't like it but it's the limits of their coding.

Wasy1

It works like this.

Spidey2099 dex = activate buff

Since he cannot gain buffs = the dex buff is prevented. And he pauses the debuffs

Since neutralise also stops buffs from happening. It will rather take Neutralise and the buff will not "trigger" to be prevented hence it will stop it from activating before spidey2099's "cannot gain buffs" kicks in
Lol, Rintrah ability doesn't say it will prevent dex effects, neutralize supposed to prevent gaining buffs not effects, and spidey99 doesn't gain buffs OP is right Kabam needs to fix this
No. The way it works makes perfect sense. Let's say Nick attempts to bleed Thing. Naturally, the "immune" text will pop up. Now let's say Nick currently has his offensive AA reduced by 100% due to some node. Will the "immune" text pop up? The answer is no because AAR is preventing the bleed from attempting to trigger in the first place. Same thing happens with neutralize and buff immunity. Neutralize is preventing the dexterity buff from attempting to trigger in the first place so Spidey's immunity check never happens.

You are mixing buff IMMUNITY with AAR. Why Quicksilver still able to place wither with dex while neutralize he also doesn't gain buff WITH DEX, if that the case with spidey99 dex how QS dex ability working while neutralize

CyborgNinja135

It works like this.

Spidey2099 dex = activate buff

Since he cannot gain buffs = the dex buff is prevented. And he pauses the debuffs

Since neutralise also stops buffs from happening. It will rather take Neutralise and the buff will not "trigger" to be prevented hence it will stop it from activating before spidey2099's "cannot gain buffs" kicks in
Lol, Rintrah ability doesn't say it will prevent dex effects, neutralize supposed to prevent gaining buffs not effects, and spidey99 doesn't gain buffs OP is right Kabam needs to fix this
No. The way it works makes perfect sense. Let's say Nick attempts to bleed Thing. Naturally, the "immune" text will pop up. Now let's say Nick currently has his offensive AA reduced by 100% due to some node. Will the "immune" text pop up? The answer is no because AAR is preventing the bleed from attempting to trigger in the first place. Same thing happens with neutralize and buff immunity. Neutralize is preventing the dexterity buff from attempting to trigger in the first place so Spidey's immunity check never happens.
You are mixing buff IMMUNITY with AAR. Why Quicksilver still able to place wither with dex while neutralize he also doesn't gain buff WITH DEX, if that the case with spidey99 dex how QS dex ability working while neutralize

I'm not mixing up anything. You're the one that doesn't understand how neutralize works. Neutralize reduces buff ability accuracy. That is why the dexterity buff never attempts to trigger on spidey on the first place, because it has its ability accuracy reduced by 100%.

QS is able to place wither whenever he evades because that does not depend on the dexterity mastery at all. QS cannot be struck while dashing back, and successfully dodging an attack inflicts the wither. Furthermore, as a part of his kit, the dexterity mastery is replaced. The text will still pop up to let you know you dodged an attack, but the mastery will be essentially deactivated while using him

Pikolu

It works like this.

Spidey2099 dex = activate buff

Since he cannot gain buffs = the dex buff is prevented. And he pauses the debuffs

Since neutralise also stops buffs from happening. It will rather take Neutralise and the buff will not "trigger" to be prevented hence it will stop it from activating before spidey2099's "cannot gain buffs" kicks in
Lol, Rintrah ability doesn't say it will prevent dex effects, neutralize supposed to prevent gaining buffs not effects, and spidey99 doesn't gain buffs OP is right Kabam needs to fix this
No. The way it works makes perfect sense. Let's say Nick attempts to bleed Thing. Naturally, the "immune" text will pop up. Now let's say Nick currently has his offensive AA reduced by 100% due to some node. Will the "immune" text pop up? The answer is no because AAR is preventing the bleed from attempting to trigger in the first place. Same thing happens with neutralize and buff immunity. Neutralize is preventing the dexterity buff from attempting to trigger in the first place so Spidey's immunity check never happens.
You are mixing buff IMMUNITY with AAR. Why Quicksilver still able to place wither with dex while neutralize he also doesn't gain buff WITH DEX, if that the case with spidey99 dex how QS dex ability working while neutralize

Quicksilvers kit says he replaces the Dexterity mastery with his dodge which is why he can dex while neutralized and have nothing happen.

Anyways, AAR overrides immunity, if you want to fight rintrah or wiccan, use someone who is immune to AAR or Longshot who has increased Ability Accuracy.

AverageDesi

For a fun note, Spidey's small resistance icon gains actually count for Galan's Armor Harvest gain.

No they don't

Magrailothos

It works like this.

Spidey2099 dex = activate buff

Since he cannot gain buffs = the dex buff is prevented. And he pauses the debuffs

Since neutralise also stops buffs from happening. It will rather take Neutralise and the buff will not "trigger" to be prevented hence it will stop it from activating before spidey2099's "cannot gain buffs" kicks in
Lol, Rintrah ability doesn't say it will prevent dex effects, neutralize supposed to prevent gaining buffs not effects, and spidey99 doesn't gain buffs OP is right Kabam needs to fix this
No. The way it works makes perfect sense. Let's say Nick attempts to bleed Thing. Naturally, the "immune" text will pop up. Now let's say Nick currently has his offensive AA reduced by 100% due to some node. Will the "immune" text pop up? The answer is no because AAR is preventing the bleed from attempting to trigger in the first place. Same thing happens with neutralize and buff immunity. Neutralize is preventing the dexterity buff from attempting to trigger in the first place so Spidey's immunity check never happens.
You are mixing buff IMMUNITY with AAR. Why Quicksilver still able to place wither with dex while neutralize he also doesn't gain buff WITH DEX, if that the case with spidey99 dex how QS dex ability working while neutralize

@CyborgNinja135 and @Ghostboytjie are absolutely correct. There have been a lot of threads about this over time; and the discussion always comes to:
1: Neutralise prevents the character even trying to generate the buff to which they're immune.
2: Since the buff fails due to AAR before it gets the chance to fail due to immunity, the character takes the hit for failure rather than gaining the benefit for immunity.

The explanation is accurate; and 'makes sense', purely considering the rules of coding. Sadly it doesn't feel like it makes sense from the perspective of a player: a major selling point for the Science champions who are buff-immune is that they bypass largely Mystic abilities like Nullify, Mystic Dispersion, and buff-related degeneration.

instinctively, it feels like a Science champion who doesn't gain buffs should bypass the abilities of a Mystic champion who punishes you for failing to gain buffs.

But they don't. And it's not going to change: from the game-balance perspective, buff-immune champions already bypass a lot of abilities of the Mystic class. They shouldn't necessarily bypass all of them.

raviXsharma

It works like this.

Spidey2099 dex = activate buff

Since he cannot gain buffs = the dex buff is prevented. And he pauses the debuffs

Since neutralise also stops buffs from happening. It will rather take Neutralise and the buff will not "trigger" to be prevented hence it will stop it from activating before spidey2099's "cannot gain buffs" kicks in

Thats just overlapping of game codes and Spideys not gaining buff ability can be prioritized above the neutralize one. Thats how it should be intended to work. Science > Mystic champ. It should be fixed

AverageDesi

It works like this.

Spidey2099 dex = activate buff

Since he cannot gain buffs = the dex buff is prevented. And he pauses the debuffs

Since neutralise also stops buffs from happening. It will rather take Neutralise and the buff will not "trigger" to be prevented hence it will stop it from activating before spidey2099's "cannot gain buffs" kicks in
Thats just overlapping of game codes and Spideys not gaining buff ability can be prioritized above the neutralize one. Thats how it should be intended to work. Science > Mystic champ. It should be fixed

There is no overlap

Ghostboytjie

Nick vs Thing

Spidey vs Rintrah

Nick can place bleed.
Thing ability - immune to bleed hence effect wont trigger.

Spidey can dex .
Rintrah neutralise - prevents buff from happening hence effect wont trigger.

I can't put it easier.

@Magrailothos tried to but some just don't understand.

Malreck04

Nick vs Thing

Spidey vs Rintrah

Nick can place bleed.
Thing ability - immune to bleed hence effect wont trigger.

Spidey can dex .
Rintrah neutralise - prevents buff from happening hence effect wont trigger.

I can't put it easier.

@Magrailothos tried to but some just don't understand.

This only demonstrates that you yourself are unaware of what is happening.

The bleed is prevented by thing’s immunity, nor by something reducing nicks AA of placing a bleed in the first place, which is in fact the actual analogous situation.

I_tell_no_tales_1

Rintrah Neutralize ability should not work on Spidey 2099 since Spidey can't gain buffs. Spidey 2099s debuff pausing icon that pops up when he evades is not a buff but Rintrahs Neutralize prevents it. Thus needs to be fixed.
Neutralize prevents Spidey from gaining buffs
Spidey gains his pause passive in place of Dexterity buff
Rintrah's neutralize prevents him from gaining Dexterity so Spidey cannot "trade" dex buff for the pause passive so he doesn't gain pause passive
Thats not how it's described. It's not a passive that does anything. It's not a buff (active or passive). It just signals that he paused placed debuffs. Therefore neutralize should have no effect. He "cannot cain buffs."

Spider man 2099 is immune to buffs. Whenever a buff is prevented by immunity he instead pauses his personal debuffs for 5 seconds.

Source : AuntM.ai

Neutralize doesn't allow him to trigger buffs therefore no buff immunity

Ghostboytjie

Nick vs Thing

Spidey vs Rintrah

Nick can place bleed.
Thing ability - immune to bleed hence effect wont trigger.

Spidey can dex .
Rintrah neutralise - prevents buff from happening hence effect wont trigger.

I can't put it easier.

@Magrailothos tried to but some just don't understand.
This only demonstrates that you yourself are unaware of what is happening.

The bleed is prevented by thing’s immunity, nor by something reducing nicks AA of placing a bleed in the first place, which is in fact the actual analogous situation.

Nick will place the bleed effect but the ability of thing being bleed immune will not let the effect trigger.

Spidey needs to "gain" a buff to get the "immune to buff" ability which THEN leads to him pausing a debuff. Neutralise PREVENTS a buff from being "gained" hence he can't trigger his "immune to buff" hence not pausing

[Deleted User]

Nick vs Thing

Spidey vs Rintrah

Nick can place bleed.
Thing ability - immune to bleed hence effect wont trigger.

Spidey can dex .
Rintrah neutralise - prevents buff from happening hence effect wont trigger.

I can't put it easier.

@Magrailothos tried to but some just don't understand.
This only demonstrates that you yourself are unaware of what is happening.

The bleed is prevented by thing’s immunity, nor by something reducing nicks AA of placing a bleed in the first place, which is in fact the actual analogous situation.
Nick will place the bleed effect but the ability of thing being bleed immune will not let the effect trigger.

Spidey needs to "gain" a buff to get the "immune to buff" ability which THEN leads to him pausing a debuff. Neutralise PREVENTS a buff from being "gained" hence he can't trigger his "immune to buff" hence not pausing

Using your logic, shouldn't that not be the case? If Things being bleed immune means that the bleed effects will not trigger, then Spidey being buff immune shouldn't let the "gain a buff" effect trigger. He doesn't gain a buff if he's immune to it, so there should be absolutely no reaction to Neutralize.

Ghostboytjie

Nick vs Thing

Spidey vs Rintrah

Nick can place bleed.
Thing ability - immune to bleed hence effect wont trigger.

Spidey can dex .
Rintrah neutralise - prevents buff from happening hence effect wont trigger.

I can't put it easier.

@Magrailothos tried to but some just don't understand.
This only demonstrates that you yourself are unaware of what is happening.

The bleed is prevented by thing’s immunity, nor by something reducing nicks AA of placing a bleed in the first place, which is in fact the actual analogous situation.
Nick will place the bleed effect but the ability of thing being bleed immune will not let the effect trigger.

Spidey needs to "gain" a buff to get the "immune to buff" ability which THEN leads to him pausing a debuff. Neutralise PREVENTS a buff from being "gained" hence he can't trigger his "immune to buff" hence not pausing
Using your logic, shouldn't that not be the case? If Things being bleed immune means that the bleed effects will not trigger, then Spidey being buff immune shouldn't let the "gain a buff" effect trigger. He doesn't gain a buff if he's immune to it, so there should be absolutely no reaction to Neutralize.

See neutralize like this : A buff has a 100% chance to be placed if you dex. if neutralize is on you. Any buff effect will not trigger because the buff "trigger" now has 0% to be placed.

Now spidey must first gain a buff to be immune to it. So if you have 0% chance to gain a buff then how can he be immune to a buff if there is no buff in the first place? Where if you don't have neutralize then the buff WILL trigger where he is THEN immune to it which triggers his buff immunity since it has 100% chance to gain dexterity.

Karuseus

In terms of neutralize mechanism, what the others have described above makes sense, and I believe it’s what’s actually happening.

Now, do we players agree to how IT SHOULD FUNCTION? Probably not.
I mean if neutralize is going to affect the buff-immune champions, what’s the point of buff immune in the first place?
Especially when neutralize is given to mystic champions, and buff immunity is given to science champs, who should be having class advantage?

AverageDesi

In terms of neutralize mechanism, what the others have described above makes sense, and I believe it’s what’s actually happening.

Now, do we players agree to how IT SHOULD FUNCTION? Probably not.
I mean if neutralize is going to affect the buff-immune champions, what’s the point of buff immune in the first place?
Especially when neutralize is given to mystic champions, and buff immunity is given to science champs, who should be having class advantage?

The point of buff immune is to be immune to buffs. Neutralize given to mystics affect cosmics because their main source of power is buffs.

Neutralize does not affect science champs in a way more detrimental in any way than they would any other class.

Karuseus

If kabam gives neutralize immunity to all the buff immune champs it would solve the problem… but that’s just my thoughts…

AverageDesi

If kabam gives neutralize immunity to all the buff immune champs it would solve the problem… but that’s just my thoughts…

Why should they ? Just because a champ is immune to one thing doesn't mean they should be immune to another thing.

There are science champions immune to shock but Wiccan, a mystic champ, can inflict degen instead of shocks . So then what's the point of the shock immunity? Might as well give degen immunity too

Karuseus

Why? Hmm… answer to that may vary, but as personal perspective
I regarded buff immune as ‘not gaining buff’, regardless of whether a buff was triggered or not.
So I thought buff immune would be a counter to buff control in general, i.e nullify, stagger, fate seal, and neutralize.

But it turned out that neutralize is preventing spiderman 2099 to pause his personal debuffs, rintrah is gaining power gain, and wiccan can inflict incinerate. For me it just didn’t seem… natural shall i say.

I know game mechanics is set up the way it is now, and i understand it. If kabam is going to stick to it, that’s just fine. Np. I’m not going to argue against it, or plead to change it.

But even though i understand it, down in my heart i will remain skeptical.

Pikolu

Why? Hmm… answer to that may vary, but as personal perspective
I regarded buff immune as ‘not gaining buff’, regardless of whether a buff was triggered or not.
So I thought buff immune would be a counter to buff control in general, i.e nullify, stagger, fate seal, and neutralize.

But it turned out that neutralize is preventing spiderman 2099 to pause his personal debuffs, rintrah is gaining power gain, and wiccan can inflict incinerate. For me it just didn’t seem… natural shall i say.

I know game mechanics is set up the way it is now, and i understand it. If kabam is going to stick to it, that’s just fine. Np. I’m not going to argue against it, or plead to change it.

But even though i understand it, down in my heart i will remain skeptical.

There are many people who break stereotypes. Galan is immune to nullify and Hulkling punishes those who nullify his indestructible or unblockable. Adam Warlock with his sovereign buff is immune to neutralize. These are classic examples of cosmics who go against what mystics are known best for.

In the same breath, neutralize counters buff immunity and instead of using a buff immune, you need to use an AAR immune champion or Longshot to render their neutralize useless.

Then the biggest culprit of them all, Magneto. Nuff said.

It is becoming more of a norm to know specific interactions and how to counter champions instead of just throwing class advantage at it.

CyborgNinja135

In terms of neutralize mechanism, what the others have described above makes sense, and I believe it’s what’s actually happening.

Now, do we players agree to how IT SHOULD FUNCTION? Probably not.
I mean if neutralize is going to affect the buff-immune champions, what’s the point of buff immune in the first place?
Especially when neutralize is given to mystic champions, and buff immunity is given to science champs, who should be having class advantage?

You're looking at it the wrong way. Neutralize taking priority over buff immunity makes sense, and it has to be this way. Why? Because AAR checks must take priority over every other check in the game.

Let's say you have a friend that lives 2 hours away and you decide to visit them. Upon your arrival you notice that your friend isn't home and you have wasted gas and time. Your decision to visit your friend unannounced was costly. Logically, you should have called your friend before hand to make sure they would be at home.

This is the idea behind AAR checks. Every ability check in this game has a certain computational complexity, and in most cases, it is higher than the complexity of AAR checks. While the difference might be 1 or 2 milliseconds, in a game like MCOC, or most games for that matter, there are thousands of calculations taking place every second, and operations with higher computational complexity will affect the game's performance. Therefore, it makes sense to perform AAR checks before every other ability check because it is less expensive for the program. In the few edge cases where the operation performed afterwards has the same computational complexity as the AAR check, the program just takes the hit and carries on. But on average, it will save more time and space than it loses by having AAR checks take priority over other abilities.