Lady Deathstrike’s scaling problem

I’ve been playing around with her and one of my alliance mates pointed out the armor scaling on her ruptures, which made me think of the implications…
It seems that Lady Deathstrike scales horribly with rank and proves to be quite the useless rank up… her damage barely changes:

6 star rank 3:

4 star maxed:

2 star maxed:

The diminishing returns on the armor scaling are off the charts, I think Kabam should smoothen this curve and buff the higher rank versions, since to be honest playing her is very stressful if you want some decent numbers and the first 50 hits of each fight are quite dead unless you’re up against Weapon X, but the biggest offender of them all is how easy it is to lose your ramp (block a hit).

I think they should give her the Mantis treatment and smoothen some curves with her kit, make her more enjoyable and less risky to play, otherwhise I wouldn’t use her too much since it’s just too damn dangerous to play without blocking at all and her utility doesn’t make up for that aspect, which in term makes her unreliable.

So yeah, in my opinion, she needs the buff route in the rebalance, her design is awesome and sadly she’s just a mutant killer, which is a category that I hate to see tech champs falling into, but that’s just a personal thing, don’t take it as preach

PS: Adam Warlock has a similar risky playstyle but he comes equipped with infuriate and losing ramp on him is just a 12 second waiting period and a cool buff that makes you unabke to get nullified, it would be great to see Deathstrike get a TAUNT,, so that enemies throw their specials and you don’t need to dance around and waste time, yeah, that’s a good idea

Comments

Magrailothos

Really interesting testing @SecondSkriller

I think you're right about the scaling appearing poor. And I'm sure that Diminishing Returns is involved. I've got another example of damage scaling 'poorly' in War Machine, whose Prefights are supposedly based on the recipients Armour Rating in this thread: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/342023/war-machines-prefights-are-absurdly-powerful-if-youre-a-2-champion#latest
TL:DR version: War Machine Prefights can give 2* champions up to a 250% damage boost.

However, given that Kabam is definitely aware of the War Machine 'issue' I've raised, but doesn't seem bothered by it, I don't think this is either unintended or unpredictable. I wonder if Kabam has the exact opposite perspective from us? They designed the champions, after all.

For them: Lady D's damage doesn't scale poorly - the damage is calibrated so that a high-ranked 6-7* champion ends up inflicting the damage that was intended. However less-powerful champions will see disproportionate benefits.

Hence, from Kabam's perspective, your 6* is working as intended; but the 2* is working excessively well...

I suspect that (1) your six-star champion is probably doing what she's supposed to do, and (2) 2* or 3* versions behave very differently - so much so, that they give an inaccurate perspective on what the 6*/7* will do, so (3) this is definitely a case for people to be careful and think hard before they rank up.

GrandOldKai

This is really interesting.

I wonder just how many Champions are affected by this?

(is it a case of Diminishing Returns causing effects to be way more pronounced when lower values are involved, and way less when higher values are? When using the free 3* I did notice that she was actually inflicting somewhat significant damage to RoL WS...)

AverageDesi

This is really interesting.

I wonder just how many Champions are affected by this?

(is it a case of Diminishing Returns causing effects to be way more pronounced when lower values are involved, and way less when higher values are? When using the free 3* I did notice that she was actually inflicting somewhat significant damage to RoL WS...)

I think it's because her rupture damage is based on the armour rating and that is affected by diminishing returns or something

GrandOldKai

This is really interesting.

I wonder just how many Champions are affected by this?

(is it a case of Diminishing Returns causing effects to be way more pronounced when lower values are involved, and way less when higher values are? When using the free 3* I did notice that she was actually inflicting somewhat significant damage to RoL WS...)
I think it's because her rupture damage is based on the armour rating and that is affected by diminishing returns or something

I would imagine so.

my 3/30 3* Lady Deathstrike has armour rating of 200 (9.1%) and can get up to 1057.14 via her buffs.

According to the Crystal Vault:

maxed 3* Lady Deathstrike has base armour of 229 (10.3%) and can get up to something like 1109.97.

maxed 4* has base armour of 381 (16%), and can get up to 1333.37.

maxed 5* has base armour of 664 (24.9%) and can get up to 1664 armour

maxed 6* has base armour of 711 (26.2%) and can get up to 1782.43 armour.

maxed 7* (!) has base armour of 869, and can get up to 2178.54 armour.

75% of 1057 is about 765, and 75% of 2178 is 1633

Sadly, I only have a 3* Lady Deathstrike but this scenario is pretty strange indeed.

Adding to this:

With ONLY her normal Armour Up buff, my 3/30 Lady Deathstrike's Rupture from a light hit does 29/tick to Winter Soldier.

which is something like 58/second... or 348 total

...which kind of checks out - 75% of her armour rating is 342.8

Axew

Invisible woman’s play style suffers from the same issue. Blocking a single hit ends her invisibility and ruins her buildup, making her extremely risky to play (probably explaining why she isn’t used that often)

Hopefully they learn from her kit and improve Lady D’s play style.

GrandOldKai

This is really interesting.

I wonder just how many Champions are affected by this?

(is it a case of Diminishing Returns causing effects to be way more pronounced when lower values are involved, and way less when higher values are? When using the free 3* I did notice that she was actually inflicting somewhat significant damage to RoL WS...)
I think it's because her rupture damage is based on the armour rating and that is affected by diminishing returns or something
I would imagine so.

my 3/30 3* Lady Deathstrike has armour rating of 200 (9.1%) and can get up to 1057.14 via her buffs.

According to the Crystal Vault:

maxed 3* Lady Deathstrike has base armour of 229 (10.3%) and can get up to something like 1109.97.

maxed 4* has base armour of 381 (16%), and can get up to 1333.37.

maxed 5* has base armour of 664 (24.9%) and can get up to 1664 armour

maxed 6* has base armour of 711 (26.2%) and can get up to 1782.43 armour.

maxed 7* (!) has base armour of 869, and can get up to 2178.54 armour.

75% of 1057 is about 765, and 75% of 2178 is 1633

Sadly, I only have a 3* Lady Deathstrike but this scenario is pretty strange indeed.

Adding to this:

With ONLY her normal Armour Up buff, my 3/30 Lady Deathstrike's Rupture from a light hit does 29/tick to Winter Soldier.

which is something like 58/second... or 348 total

...which kind of checks out - 75% of her armour rating is 342.8

adding to this again: I did not realise that awakened Lady Deathstrike gets even more Armour Up effects.

At max stacks (seven passives, one buff) her Ruptures were dealing 233 damage per second - or about 1398 total, making her total armour around 1864 (it should be 1857.14 if her info is anything to go by)

Knowing this, a "fully ramped" maxed awakened 5*
should deal... 1947 total Rupture damage

Not even double.

However, there is a 2* Lady Deathstrike.

And her "fully ramped" Ruptures? I estimate them to deal 1284 damage.

funny thing: a maxed 4* only has about 300 less total armour than a rank 3 6*, meaning that they indeed will see similar Rupture damage (1925 vs 1666)

tl,dr: 5* 5/65 awakened Lady Deathstrike's Ruptures are not even twice as strong as a maxed 2* Lady Deathstrike

But there should be some difference observed.

SecondSkriller

Really interesting testing @SecondSkriller

I think you're right about the scaling appearing poor. And I'm sure that Diminishing Returns is involved. I've got another example of damage scaling 'poorly' in War Machine, whose Prefights are supposedly based on the recipients Armour Rating in this thread: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/342023/war-machines-prefights-are-absurdly-powerful-if-youre-a-2-champion#latest
TL:DR version: War Machine Prefights can give 2* champions up to a 250% damage boost.

However, given that Kabam is definitely aware of the War Machine 'issue' I've raised, but doesn't seem bothered by it, I don't think this is either unintended or unpredictable. I wonder if Kabam has the exact opposite perspective from us? They designed the champions, after all.

For them: Lady D's damage doesn't scale poorly - the damage is calibrated so that a high-ranked 6-7* champion ends up inflicting the damage that was intended. However less-powerful champions will see disproportionate benefits.

Hence, from Kabam's perspective, your 6* is working as intended; but the 2* is working excessively well...

I suspect that (1) your six-star champion is probably doing what she's supposed to do, and (2) 2* or 3* versions behave very differently - so much so, that they give an inaccurate perspective on what the 6*/7* will do, so (3) this is definitely a case for people to be careful and think hard before they rank up.

I see what you mean, from my perspective it’s ok at this point that her damage scales poorly, but over time she’ll just get weaker with each rank technically… I’m ok if it stays like that since her damage is acceptable, but not special. I think some quality of life improvements to her kit that make the gameplay less stressful and maybe just maybe some more utility in general matchups would render the poor scaling irrelevant and make her completely viable

SecondSkriller

Something I want to point out aswell is that her ruptures deal physical damage, I was testing them against Labyrinth Rhulk and the damage was affected highly, the r3 finished the fight in 7 minutes vs 4 minutes it took her to finish the Elektra fight.

CyborgNinja135

Something I want to point out aswell is that her ruptures deal physical damage, I was testing them against Labyrinth Rhulk and the damage was affected highly, the r3 finished the fight in 7 minutes vs 4 minutes it took her to finish the Elektra fight.

Well all rupture effects in the game have always dealt physical damage so champions that rely on it should watch out for problematic match-ups

SecondSkriller

Something I want to point out aswell is that her ruptures deal physical damage, I was testing them against Labyrinth Rhulk and the damage was affected highly, the r3 finished the fight in 7 minutes vs 4 minutes it took her to finish the Elektra fight.
Well all rupture effects in the game have always dealt physical damage so champions that rely on it should watch out for problematic match-ups

But we've never had a champ deal the bulk of their damage in rupture, usually they scale their damage based on the rupture, still, I'm mentioning it since it's a factor that can impact her performance

CyborgNinja135

Something I want to point out aswell is that her ruptures deal physical damage, I was testing them against Labyrinth Rhulk and the damage was affected highly, the r3 finished the fight in 7 minutes vs 4 minutes it took her to finish the Elektra fight.
Well all rupture effects in the game have always dealt physical damage so champions that rely on it should watch out for problematic match-ups
But we've never had a champ deal the bulk of their damage in rupture

Scorpion, Spidey 2099 (not all of it but still quite substantial) and Spot. A lot of champions in the game have resistances to certain types of damage so that is always something that players should watch out for. I don't really see it as an issue for Lady Deathstrike, because she is not the first one to be affected by this. Now her damage scaling poorly due to the way armor rating works in this game is a valid concern

TripleB

It has nothing to do with rupture and everything to do with scaling on armor. Most if not all champions damage scales on their attack rating, which scales proportionately with their rank and star level. However, critical rating, critical damage rating, armor, block proficiency, energy resistance, physical resistance... you get the point, doesn't scale as drastically. You could have a maxed out 6* Abs Man with an armor rating of 367 and a 3* Doom of 1087, if their damage scaled based off their armor then you could see how disproportionate the game would get. Lady Deathstrike's rupture damage just so happens to depend on her armor rating as many in this thread have said. The easiest way I see to fix it is instead give the damage a base of her attack rating, then allow it to benefit further based off her armor. The benefit of a 3* compared to a 7* wouldn't be much difference but the base would be drastically different.

SecondSkriller

It has nothing to do with rupture and everything to do with scaling on armor. Most if not all champions damage scales on their attack rating, which scales proportionately with their rank and star level. However, critical rating, critical damage rating, armor, block proficiency, energy resistance, physical resistance... you get the point, doesn't scale as drastically. You could have a maxed out 6* Abs Man with an armor rating of 367 and a 3* Doom of 1087, if their damage scaled based off their armor then you could see how disproportionate the game would get. Lady Deathstrike's rupture damage just so happens to depend on her armor rating as many in this thread have said. The easiest way I see to fix it is instead give the damage a base of her attack rating, then allow it to benefit further based off her armor. The benefit of a 3* compared to a 7* wouldn't be much difference but the base would be drastically different.

Yes, either that or keep her identity of an armor scaling champ and offer some more safety in her extremely unsafe rotation and low healthpool. You can actually easily get oneshot by a special, which sometimes renders her regen useless haha.

I think making her scale 50% with attack and 50% with armor is a good way to balance out the curve in the damage side of her kit

rwhack

Her damage as a rank 5 has been highly disappointing. A tune up would be nice. Could’ve left her at rank 3 and done the same damage.

SecondSkriller

Her damage as a rank 5 has been highly disappointing. A tune up would be nice. Could’ve left her at rank 3 and done the same damage.

Yes, at rank 3 she hits a hardcap and the damage pretty much stays the same from there…
And since it scales with armor nodes that help you will pretty much be useless, I don’t think it’s such a huge pro-player move to make lower rating champs scale insanely, no one really benefits from 4 stars anymore :,)

Zuro

Her damage as a rank 5 has been highly disappointing. A tune up would be nice. Could’ve left her at rank 3 and done the same damage.
Yes, at rank 3 she hits a hardcap and the damage pretty much stays the same from there…
And since it scales with armor nodes that help you will pretty much be useless, I don’t think it’s such a huge pro-player move to make lower rating champs scale insanely, no one really benefits from 4 stars anymore :,)

What also sucks is that in the EQ where you get furies for heal blocking with a tech champ, her damage barely raises due to all her damage relying on armor. I love my seven star Lady D but unless you're in a mutant matchup, the damage can be really lacking.

JustWantTheRewards

Seems like a 5* max sig Lady Deathstrike would be the most efficient. It'll be the easiest to max out the 5* and the sig ability will be equally as effective as the 6*. There are definitely some drawbacks of having her maximum potential be so low as a 6 and 7 star, but the 5* being extremely viable is a pretty cool upside.

GroundedWisdom

This is giving me Pure Skill vibes.

Sachhyam257

To quote a prior thread of mine-

Recently I've come across some videos of 2* Lady Deathstrike taking on 6* r4 champs and doing some nutty dmg. People in the comments are all raving about her dmg output and saying she'll be nerfed soon. Here's the thing though: her dmg does NOT scale like a normal 2* to 6* or 7*.

LME. She is an outlier because her dmg is mostly based on her ruptures, which scale with her armour rating. Her rupture dmg will not increase or decrease even if her base attack rating is altered. Armour rating does NOT scale at the same rate as attack rating, and that's where I think a lot of the misconceptions might be rooted. Unlike her base attack stat, which goes from 98 [2* r1] to 3843 [6* r4], her armour up buff only goes from 228.57 [2* r1] to 314.29 [6* r4], with each armour up passive further increasing it by 177.78 [2* r1] and 244.44 [6* r4]. Not as steep of an increase as you might think...

When we factor in her base armour rating of 103 [2* r1] and 658 [6* r4], her max armour rating would be ~1576.03 [2* r1] and ~2683.37 [6* r4] (max = base armour rating + armour up buff + 7 armour up passives from the sig ability). That would be ~70% increase. Technically, it would be slightly higher with the additional 2% rupture potency that sig 200 [5*/6*/7*] has over sig 99 [2*/3*/4*], but I can't be bothered to get the exact value lol.

Now, when we compare that to Human Torch (who also relies on DOT mostly but scales off attack rating instead), taking numbers from Auntm.ai (my torch isn't r4), he goes from 16.8 incinerate dmg over 3s [2* r1] to 688.6 incinerate dmg over 3s [6* r4]. Just taking those raw numbers and discarding his smoulders/pre-fight, we get an increase of ~3998.8%. That's a pretty big difference I'd say, between 3998% and 70%.

She still deals a decent amount of dmg as a 6*, not saying she's a complete noodle, just making this post as a 'The More You Know' kind of thing, as people might not be aware.

TLDR: Lady Deathstrike does not scale like other champs in the game; seeing her dmg as a 2* in certain videos and expecting her 6* version to deal exponentially more dmg (like regular champs do) might not be the best idea.

My take was that Kabam released the 6* and 7* versions slightly undertuned, since new champs go through that rebalance period.

Her dmg at 6* r4 unawakened was quite underwhelming, especially after seeing how her 5* awakened version could outperform it. I have since awakened her and she now sits at ~sig170. Her dmg is better now, but I would still like to see her get a slight buff.

Sachhyam257

[This comment might be repeated, the first got sent for approval. God knows when that'll show up now. I literally just removed a comma smh.]

Anyways, the comment was along the lines of:

Why not buff how her base armour rating scales instead of increasing her ability armour ratings. Currently, her base armour ratings are 103 [2* r1], 664 [5* r5], 711 [6* r5] and 678 [7* r2]. Her base armour ratings at 6* r4 and 7* r1 are literally lower than her maxed out 5* lol.

Why not make it scale with * rating and rank? So a 6* starts off where the 5* ends and 7* where the 6* ends. Thought process behind this specific change being: it increases her overall dmg output (obviously), but it also lets the higher rarities start ahead and stronger. Could potentially close the gap between a 5* r5 awakened and 6* r3/r4 unawakened dmg wise, though the 5* might outpace it at full ramp. Thoughts?

SecondSkriller

[This comment might be repeated, the first got sent for approval. God knows when that'll show up now. I literally just removed a comma smh.]

Anyways, the comment was along the lines of:

Why not buff how her base armour rating scales instead of increasing her ability armour ratings. Currently, her base armour ratings are 103 [2* r1], 664 [5* r5], 711 [6* r5] and 678 [7* r2]. Her base armour ratings at 6* r4 and 7* r1 are literally lower than her maxed out 5* lol.

Why not make it scale with * rating and rank? So a 6* starts off where the 5* ends and 7* where the 6* ends. Thought process behind this specific change being: it increases her overall dmg output (obviously), but it also lets the higher rarities start ahead and stronger. Could potentially close the gap between a 5* r5 awakened and 6* r3/r4 unawakened dmg wise, though the 5* might outpace it at full ramp. Thoughts?

I think they can play around with some crit resist with her aswell, since Armor is quite useless against critical hits and it reminds me of Omega Sentinel who dies from a direct hit in hard content, despite her huge armor. Something like Warlock where enemy specials can’t crit if Lady Deathstrike has Ferocity, that sounds pretty good to me

Sachhyam257

Had some free time so I made a quick graph to see how her base armour rating scales with rank/rarity:

6* r1 having a base armour rating equivalent to a 5* r2 when it should be equivalent to a 5* r4 is quite odd. The 5* values are kinda overtuned though.

SecondSkriller

Had some free time so I made a quick graph to see how her base armour rating scales with rank/rarity:

6* r1 having a base armour rating equivalent to a 5* r2 when it should be equivalent to a 5* r4 is quite odd. The 5* values are kinda overtuned though.

So a 6 star rank 4 is actually worse than a 5 star rank 5… that’s not good.

Sachhyam257

Had some free time so I made a quick graph to see how her base armour rating scales with rank/rarity:

6* r1 having a base armour rating equivalent to a 5* r2 when it should be equivalent to a 5* r4 is quite odd. The 5* values are kinda overtuned though.
So a 6 star rank 4 is actually worse than a 5 star rank 5… that’s not good.

That's just the base armour rating, adding the armour buff and passives might make it even/ give the edge to the 6*. Shouldn't be too noticeable of a difference tbh. 6* r4 will still have higher basic atk dmg and special atk dmg, which should give it the edge in a head to head. However, is there a point to rank up the 6* if the 5* could do the same thing allbeit marginally slower?

SecondSkriller

Had some free time so I made a quick graph to see how her base armour rating scales with rank/rarity:

6* r1 having a base armour rating equivalent to a 5* r2 when it should be equivalent to a 5* r4 is quite odd. The 5* values are kinda overtuned though.
So a 6 star rank 4 is actually worse than a 5 star rank 5… that’s not good.
That's just the base armour rating, adding the armour buff and passives might make it even/ give the edge to the 6*. Shouldn't be too noticeable of a difference tbh. 6* r4 will still have higher basic atk dmg and special atk dmg, which should give it the edge in a head to head. However, is there a point to rank up the 6* if the 5* could do the same thing allbeit marginally slower?

Yeah, the difference is really so small between the 5 star and the 6 star, hell even between the 4 star and the 6 star!

BitterSteel

Had some free time so I made a quick graph to see how her base armour rating scales with rank/rarity:

6* r1 having a base armour rating equivalent to a 5* r2 when it should be equivalent to a 5* r4 is quite odd. The 5* values are kinda overtuned though.
So a 6 star rank 4 is actually worse than a 5 star rank 5… that’s not good.
. However, is there a point to rank up the 6* if the 5* could do the same thing allbeit marginally slower?

Health and Adrenaline means for me, yes absolutely.

this is the first time a champ has used a stat like armour rating for a large chunk of their attack, so it's definitely under close review for her balancing. I love it personally, it's quirky and means increasing armour rating (say in incursions) gives you big damage boosts - and means it's not affected by weakness, taunt etc.

SecondSkriller

Had some free time so I made a quick graph to see how her base armour rating scales with rank/rarity:

6* r1 having a base armour rating equivalent to a 5* r2 when it should be equivalent to a 5* r4 is quite odd. The 5* values are kinda overtuned though.
So a 6 star rank 4 is actually worse than a 5 star rank 5… that’s not good.
. However, is there a point to rank up the 6* if the 5* could do the same thing allbeit marginally slower?
Health and Adrenaline means for me, yes absolutely.

this is the first time a champ has used a stat like armour rating for a large chunk of their attack, so it's definitely under close review for her balancing. I love it personally, it's quirky and means increasing armour rating (say in incursions) gives you big damage boosts - and means it's not affected by weakness, taunt etc.

But also means it’s not affected by nodes that help you, also the health is pretty unimportant since you’re supposed to not block lol, the challenger rating is the only thing you get from a higher rarity hihi

BitterSteel

Had some free time so I made a quick graph to see how her base armour rating scales with rank/rarity:

6* r1 having a base armour rating equivalent to a 5* r2 when it should be equivalent to a 5* r4 is quite odd. The 5* values are kinda overtuned though.
So a 6 star rank 4 is actually worse than a 5 star rank 5… that’s not good.
. However, is there a point to rank up the 6* if the 5* could do the same thing allbeit marginally slower?
Health and Adrenaline means for me, yes absolutely.

this is the first time a champ has used a stat like armour rating for a large chunk of their attack, so it's definitely under close review for her balancing. I love it personally, it's quirky and means increasing armour rating (say in incursions) gives you big damage boosts - and means it's not affected by weakness, taunt etc.
But also means it’s not affected by nodes that help you, also the health is pretty unimportant since you’re supposed to not block lol, the challenger rating is the only thing you get from a higher rarity hihi

Re: it’s not affected by nodes that help you: Well yeah, but that’s pros and cons. Galan is unaffected by those sorts of nodes that help you, doesn’t make him bad. So is omega red, so is Cassie lang.

I’d take a champ who brings something different to the roster even if it makes them bad for, ahem, TB EQ.

It means they’re unaffected by inequity in BGs and AW, long distance relationship, class disadvantage and tons more. Is it really that big a deal if they don’t get a fury boost in event quest? I’ll just use a different champ who does.

Health being unimportant because you aren’t supposed to block is a bit of a disingenuous argument imo. Would you use a 3* Lady DS if that’s your opinion? Still don’t have to block, would you use a 2* if you got one? Don’t think so. Because firstly, part of her ability set is to eat specials and regen them back if you’re in ferocity instead of blocking, but if you have 5k health instead of 50k, the special might Ko you instead of being able to regen it back.

And not to mention, in BGs, about half or more of the fight is ramping up into ferocity, when you’re able to block. So having more health is important there. Also, when you use the sp2 you get 2 free blocks, so no, her playstyle isn’t just “never block”. I disagree with that massively.

ALSO also, her attack doesn’t only come from ruptures it’s just a big part of it. Lots of damage comes from basic attacks and specials in fights

In this 200k healthpool, rupture only did 80k damage. So if you were using a 3* (and assuming they had the same armour rating, which they don’t) your 3* that is “basically the same” as a 6* would only have done around half the healthpool. That’s because especially in shorter fights, Lady DS’s damage isn’t just ruptures. So the basic hits matter, and so does the rarity.

Sachhyam257

I love it personally, it's quirky and means increasing armour rating (say in incursions) gives you big damage boosts - and means it's not affected by weakness, taunt etc.

Yea, I do like that aspect of her kit, but as you showed in the comment after this one, a chunk of her dmg output (in short to medium hp fights) is still reliant on her basic attacks and specials. So she is still affected by nodes and debuffs like weakness/taunt, to an extent. That said, it wouldn't affect her in longer fights, since the rupture dmg will eventually ramp up and outpace the basics, but content to utilize that is scarce.

PT_99

Damn I was so close to ranking her up instead of Silk till I saw great silk analysis video and random silk mommy meme.