7* Mantis or Black Cat for R2

I absolutely love my r2 black cat, she crushes so many enemies in BGs and other content.

Avnish

Mentis. She is on R2. Kill most of the defender in BG under 40 sec with her sp2. Very easy to rampup. She gives 240k damge on sp2.

DrZola

Black Cat is extremely versatile and can shut down almost anything. Great in BGs and beyond.

Dr. Zola

Jack2634

Most probably dont have black cat yet and may vote mantis just because of this, but objectively who benefits more .

Main purpose is BGs but I’ve not done 8.3 or 7 star Carina yet

it depends on what you need more imo , black cat in a long run can be extremely powerful with black widow relics (she still good in shorter fights , but definitely worse than in longer one) while mantis is an annoying defender and a bursty attacker too . If you like battlegrounds , go for mantis . Otherwise , your choice

Mord

I have both and ranked up Mantis.
Still love Black cat to death, but I think Mantis is the better Photon counter and I'm terrified of her both in war and BGs.

Hector_1475

It depends on what you want to focus on. Mantis is part of the new breed of champions, a BGs nuke. Black Cat is far more wellr-rounded and she absolutely shines both in paths & bosses in Act 8.3 and in longer form content, while at the same time is very capable in BGs as well (even against bleed immune).

MiniMF

I have both and ranked up Mantis.
Still love Black cat to death, but I think Mantis is the better Photon counter and I'm terrified of her both in war and BGs.

crossbones is insane against photon, makes it reallllllly easy

Mord

I have both and ranked up Mantis.
Still love Black cat to death, but I think Mantis is the better Photon counter and I'm terrified of her both in war and BGs.
crossbones is insane against photon, makes it reallllllly easy

I've handled several photons in war with Mantis and they also dropped super fast and easy. Sadly I don't have a Crossbones, but will keep it in mind if I get one as 6 or 7, thanks!

captain_rogers

While mantis is good,black cat is great

Damn. Black cat is now in the lead.

I wasnt expecting this since I said my focus was BGs. I guess it’s because despite Mantis being more of a dual threat and better for damage output,that Black Cat shuts down more tricky defenders than Mantis does?

psp742

I have 6* Mantis (undupe) and Black Cat (sig25) rank2.. 7* Mantis (since I have 7* the 6* will probably stay rank1).. Black Cat is better at evasion and her bleed damage is pretty good.. although both Mantis and Black Cat require some build up.. Mantis can end fight quick if conditions are favorable (but if rng is not great and reach sp3 will need to redo 20 mixed emotions or get to sp2).. Black Cat on the other hand seem good by intercept and heavy to get more turn of her card.. its a toss up.. who do you like? There is no wrong answer.

I'm a simp for Black Cat but I think that I can confidently vote for her here without any bias. Mainly because I have a 7* Mantis myself and she is already insane at r1. I was wondering if I should r2 her when I got the 1-2 gem from 8.3, but she honestly doesn't need it at the moment. Her SP2 hits so freaking hard when you're fully ramped up that she just melts whoever she faces in BG. She's a bit slower in quests where the health pools are higher, but she still works fine at r1.

Black Cat, meanwhile, really benefits from the extra rank. She gets about a 25% increase to her direct damage when punishing defensive abilities. That means 25% less hits (after her SP2) needed to KO an opponent in BG. I find that much more useful than Mantis just KO'ing her opponents a little more thoroughly than at r1.

ThePredator1001

I think Black Cat is the better champ but she will still be very effective at R1 and just take slightly longer to kill, Mantis on the other hand needs that sp2 to kill in one shot. Taking her to R2 would allow her to one shot a lot more defenders. She’s a lot the better defender.

For everything besides BG I’d rank up Black Cat

Damn. Black cat is now in the lead.

I wasnt expecting this since I said my focus was BGs. I guess it’s because despite Mantis being more of a dual threat and better for damage output,that Black Cat shuts down more tricky defenders than Mantis does?

Both typically shut down their respective fights in one sp2. I enjoy I don't have to worry about things, Nick Furies, or hulklings anymore thanks to black cat.

Damn. Black cat is now in the lead.

I wasnt expecting this since I said my focus was BGs. I guess it’s because despite Mantis being more of a dual threat and better for damage output,that Black Cat shuts down more tricky defenders than Mantis does?
Both typically shut down their respective fights in one sp2. I enjoy I don't have to worry about things, Nick Furies, or hulklings anymore thanks to black cat.

Does she stop anyone else besides those? As I usually just use valkyrie for thing and AA for fury. Or is she mainly used for just those 3 innBGs

Damn. Black cat is now in the lead.

I wasnt expecting this since I said my focus was BGs. I guess it’s because despite Mantis being more of a dual threat and better for damage output,that Black Cat shuts down more tricky defenders than Mantis does?
Both typically shut down their respective fights in one sp2. I enjoy I don't have to worry about things, Nick Furies, or hulklings anymore thanks to black cat.
Does she stop anyone else besides those? As I usually just use valkyrie for thing and AA for fury. Or is she mainly used for just those 3 innBGs

I use her typically against anyone who can have an ability fail when you hit them. This includes anyone with an evade, korg with his thorns, duped photon when hitting her, thing with his rock stacks...etc. She even counters MD and prey on the week when you have a buff expire while hitting them (like your dex buff). She is an instant pick for me when I see her on the draft

Damn. Black cat is now in the lead.

I wasnt expecting this since I said my focus was BGs. I guess it’s because despite Mantis being more of a dual threat and better for damage output,that Black Cat shuts down more tricky defenders than Mantis does?
Both typically shut down their respective fights in one sp2. I enjoy I don't have to worry about things, Nick Furies, or hulklings anymore thanks to black cat.
Does she stop anyone else besides those? As I usually just use valkyrie for thing and AA for fury. Or is she mainly used for just those 3 innBGs

She shuts down Rintrah's mystical charges, America Chavez's damage reflection, Man-Thing's nullify-into-poisons ability, Hulkling's regen/indestructible, Killmonger's Reverberation/indestructible/counterpunches, a lot of evade champions if you take it slow to your SP2, Thing's rock stacks, MODOK's autoblock, Anti-Venom's regen, Spot's Untouchable, Overseer's autoblock, OG Hulk's rages (and subsequent unstoppable), she bypasses a lot of shrug-off champions shrug-off mechanic, and Gorr's regen.

I probably missed a few things, but even if I didn't, she counters a ton of nodes where something happens when you hit your opponent. For example, last season in BG, you had the "the opponent gains prowess when you use the same attack twice in row against them" node, and that's perfect for her since she can completely shut it down and punish opponents whenever that prowess fails to trigger. This season, you have a node where certain mystic champions place placebo buffs on you whenever you strike them. That, too, is a perfect node for her.

Overall, she's a fantastic BG champion. Suuuuuuper underrated.

Damn. Black cat is now in the lead.

I wasnt expecting this since I said my focus was BGs. I guess it’s because despite Mantis being more of a dual threat and better for damage output,that Black Cat shuts down more tricky defenders than Mantis does?
Both typically shut down their respective fights in one sp2. I enjoy I don't have to worry about things, Nick Furies, or hulklings anymore thanks to black cat.
Does she stop anyone else besides those? As I usually just use valkyrie for thing and AA for fury. Or is she mainly used for just those 3 innBGs
She shuts down Rintrah's mystical charges, America Chavez's damage reflection, Man-Thing's nullify-into-poisons ability, Hulkling's regen/indestructible, Killmonger's Reverberation/indestructible/counterpunches, a lot of evade champions if you take it slow to your SP2, Thing's rock stacks, MODOK's autoblock, Anti-Venom's regen, Spot's Untouchable, Overseer's autoblock, OG Hulk's rages (and subsequent unstoppable), she bypasses a lot of shrug-off champions shrug-off mechanic, and Gorr's regen.

I probably missed a few things, but even if I didn't, she counters a ton of nodes where something happens when you hit your opponent. For example, last season in BG, you had the "the opponent gains prowess when you use the same attack twice in row against them" node, and that's perfect for her since she can completely shut it down and punish opponents whenever that prowess fails to trigger. This season, you have a node where certain mystic champions place placebo buffs on you whenever you strike them. That, too, is a perfect node for her.

Overall, she's a fantastic BG champion. Suuuuuuper underrated.

Rintrah is really useful to be able to counter too, she kills him fast?

Her DAAR only works when shes attacking them right? So the shrug offs would only be for like bleeds and not parries? the abilities don’t specify that its only when attacking, just says sabotage debuff and combo meter, so i would think its not only when attacking.

But if its only when attacking, then you have to be careful with some of them like for e.g MT as if youre not attacking, can still take the poisons?

Does she work well for Void, QS, or Jessica?

Also what did you mean by take it slow to the sp2?

And lastly thanks for mentioning the nodes, I was curious if it worked on those too, i was going to ask about it with the example of flux dispersal or special delivery

Here's some highlights I have had with Black cat this season.

Damn. Black cat is now in the lead.

I wasnt expecting this since I said my focus was BGs. I guess it’s because despite Mantis being more of a dual threat and better for damage output,that Black Cat shuts down more tricky defenders than Mantis does?
Both typically shut down their respective fights in one sp2. I enjoy I don't have to worry about things, Nick Furies, or hulklings anymore thanks to black cat.
Does she stop anyone else besides those? As I usually just use valkyrie for thing and AA for fury. Or is she mainly used for just those 3 innBGs
She shuts down Rintrah's mystical charges, America Chavez's damage reflection, Man-Thing's nullify-into-poisons ability, Hulkling's regen/indestructible, Killmonger's Reverberation/indestructible/counterpunches, a lot of evade champions if you take it slow to your SP2, Thing's rock stacks, MODOK's autoblock, Anti-Venom's regen, Spot's Untouchable, Overseer's autoblock, OG Hulk's rages (and subsequent unstoppable), she bypasses a lot of shrug-off champions shrug-off mechanic, and Gorr's regen.

I probably missed a few things, but even if I didn't, she counters a ton of nodes where something happens when you hit your opponent. For example, last season in BG, you had the "the opponent gains prowess when you use the same attack twice in row against them" node, and that's perfect for her since she can completely shut it down and punish opponents whenever that prowess fails to trigger. This season, you have a node where certain mystic champions place placebo buffs on you whenever you strike them. That, too, is a perfect node for her.

Overall, she's a fantastic BG champion. Suuuuuuper underrated.
Rintrah is really useful to be able to counter too, she kills him fast?

Her DAAR only works when shes attacking them right? So the shrug offs would only be for like bleeds and not parries? the abilities don’t specify that its only when attacking, just says sabotage debuff and combo meter, so i would think its not only when attacking.

But if its only when attacking, then you have to be careful with some of them like for e.g MT as if youre not attacking, can still take the poisons?

Does she work well for Void, QS, or Jessica?

Also what did you mean by take it slow to the sp2?

And lastly thanks for mentioning the nodes, I was curious if it worked on those too, i was going to ask about it with the example of flux dispersal or special delivery

We've seen some champs come into the game lately who seem very specifically designed to take down Rintrah, but aside from those, she's probably one of the best counters. As soon as you launch your SP2, nothing works for him. He can't place Neutralize on you, so no more ruptures. No more unblockable attacks for him. No more going unstoppable in the corner. She's as fast as you can be with a healthpool like Rintrah's.

Regarding shrug-offs, yes, exactly. Those aren't her best matches since there's a 40% chance that they'll shrug off your Sabotage debuff when you place it in the first place, but if it sticks, all of your bleeds will stick as well and you'll do extra damage when they fail to be shrugged off. The one shrugger I'd be wary off is Kingpin since he has his "when he gets 8 debuffs on him, he purifies them" ability kind of hardcoded into him. You won't be able to DAAR that away, and you'll lose both the Sabotage debuff and all of your bleeds, and he'll go unblockable and get a massive attack increase and all other kinds of stuff that happens when he gets his Overpower buff.

Exactly. Man-Thing has a 15% chance to nullify buffs off you when you make contact. You can prevent this from happening when you hit him, but if he hits you, the chance is still there. So don't get hit.

Void's debuffs aren't defensive abilities so she can't shut down those. However, she does have Cleanse on her SP1 (and inflated combos that make it much easier to reach stacks of ten hits), so she could maybe still be a solid counter. Haven't really tried, though. As for Quicksilver, yes, she can work. You just have to be careful with his evade. What I mean about taking it slow when facing evade champions is that you need to be wary of the fact that you don't actually turn it off until you place the Sabotage debuff. They always have a chance to evade until then (even if it gets smaller and smaller with each hit in your combo), so you have to be on edge and look out for it so that you don't get caught by it.

I can't really say if she's good for Jessica Jones in general because there simply aren't enough Jessicas in the game for me to have tried her out a lot, but I did use my Black Cat vs Jessica when she first came to the game and Black Cat absolutely melted her.

As for Black Cat working on nodes as well, yes, that's one of her strongest features. That means she can punish almost every champion in the game if they are standing on a node that gives them anything. Her DAAR is super powerful.

@Pikolu @TheGladiator02 @Hector_1475 @DrZola @Ercarret

I think you’ve all sold me on Black Cat, she might be the best skill 7* in the game , probably better than Crossbones too.

But one thing I’m curious and want to ask you is if your views won’t change if i told you I was only running 1 point in deep wounds. I recently decided to drop 3 points in it to max out the Inequity mastery as I thought it benefited more champs. (Debuff stackers instead of just the small amount of bleed champs). I’m still experimenting with Inequity, not sure if Deep Wounds is more important overall.

I wouldn't worry about not running 5/5 DW. Bleeds will never be your main source of damage with Black Cat unless you bring her into an unideal match. The fights where she shines the brightest are those where she can punish defensive abilities, like the ones I mentioned. Whenever she prevents one of them from activating, she deals a burst of direct damage to the opponent. This damage isn't bleed and is entirely unaffected by DW.

She can still deal a lot of bleed damage and in those fights, DW would be preferred. But she'd still be perfectly viable for all of the match-ups I mentioned without a single point in that particular mastery.

Edit: oh, and Inequity is a great mastery! It might not matter much for Black Cat specifically but there are a lot of champions out there that can really use it to their advantage. Plus, it can be super annoying for your opponents to face in BG, for example.

@Polygon She is still a monster without bleeds and they already last a long time. The main bleeds you see are off that sp2, but deep wounds doesn't matter too much for her. I'd there's a defensive ability to punish, she will do great. My black cat can crush abyss thing in 3 minutes no suicides or boosts.

ChrisPowell

Here's some highlights I have had with Black cat this season.

Dangerous nick fury counter. I've accidentally made him permanently unblockable by lowering his ability accuracy too quickly.

Here's some highlights I have had with Black cat this season.

Dangerous nick fury counter. I've accidentally made him permanently unblockable by lowering his ability accuracy too quickly.

That's the worst! But on the other side of the coin, I've had fights where he has never become unblockable at all as well. But you really have to manage that or you can get screwed.

I wouldn't worry about not running 5/5 DW. Bleeds will never be your main source of damage with Black Cat unless you bring her into an unideal match. The fights where she shines the brightest are those where she can punish defensive abilities, like the ones I mentioned. Whenever she prevents one of them from activating, she deals a burst of direct damage to the opponent. This damage isn't bleed and is entirely unaffected by DW.

She can still deal a lot of bleed damage and in those fights, DW would be preferred. But she'd still be perfectly viable for all of the match-ups I mentioned without a single point in that particular mastery.

Edit: oh, and Inequity is a great mastery! It might not matter much for Black Cat specifically but there are a lot of champions out there that can really use it to their advantage. Plus, it can be super annoying for your opponents to face in BG, for example.

Thanks for clarifying, I’ll stick with Inequity then.

So her rotation for BGs /Story is to just get to sp2 and throw it when the card is on you? No need to weave in heavies to pass the card back and forth?

I usually don't bother with landing a bunch of heavies, no. It can be a good thing to do if you go for a bleed rotation, but if you aim to punish defensive ability accuracy, I find it somewhat superfluous. Especially if you have the Black Widow awakened, since you then also gain a personal cruelty passive every time an ability fails on the opponent. You can ramp them up really quickly that way, making heavy attacks even more unnecessary.

Real_Madrid_76_2

Use her against korg