Faulty AI?...or Hit Box issue? Follow up on my previous post.

@Kabam Miike says it's the AI. In the video breakdown, you can hear my champ hit the stunned defender. He's NOT MOVING when I hit him. Her heavy hits a STUNNED defender, yet misses at the same time. Make it make sense.

Need some clarity here. This is more than just the A.I.

https://youtu.be/2jwWStKrLqk?si=IlzLly-i0RPok9Kv

Comments

ahmynuts

Yeah this is a hitbox issue like you've demonstrated.I don't know why Miike is lumping in the entirely separate AI waking up from stun in with this one. Pretty weird

unknown

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Unyonface

Come on guys, Kabam have already admitted AI issue, are you telling me there's more than one in this game?! 😳

This isn’t an AI issue, this is hit box issue…

Terminatrix

Come on guys, Kabam have already admitted AI issue, are you telling me there's more than one in this game?! 😳

Lmfaoooooo what are you talking about? There can't possibly be more than one issue. Not in MCOC! 😉

Sachhyam257

Come on guys, Kabam have already admitted AI issue, are you telling me there's more than one in this game?! 😳
This isn’t an AI issue, this is hit box issue…

It is though. Miike clearly states that the AI fires the special in the exact frame it exits the stun, and that specials take precedence. The first image may look like the first point of contact, but I'm willing to bet that the contact only actually occurs in the second image (*), where you can see the stun is over and the AI has probably already activated special.

*since cmm's heavy is a single hit attack, the contact is probably just in the middle of the animation. Idk if thats how it works, but that is my guess...

Sachhyam257

I had brought up this exact issue concerning AI reacting in the exact frame the stun wares off before (on a thread about AI throwing sps during stun). There was some dude telling me to git gud instead of complaining, well... who's laughing now. 🤫

ahmynuts

I had brought up this exact issue concerning AI reacting in the exact frame the stun wares off before (on a thread about AI throwing sps during stun). There was some dude telling me to git gud instead of complaining, well... who's laughing now. 🤫

Yeah and now it seems like they're trying to call that and this the same thing, which makes absolutely 0 sense because it's so obviously different that someone who knows literally nothing about development can even see it

Jefechuta

@Kabam Miike says it's the AI. In the video breakdown, you can hear my champ hit the stunned defender. He's NOT MOVING when I hit him. Her heavy hits a STUNNED defender, yet misses at the same time. Make it make sense.

Need some clarity here. This is more than just the A.I.

https://youtu.be/2jwWStKrLqk?si=IlzLly-i0RPok9Kv

Hey Fam, just so you know, the sound effects are not working properly since I dont know, a lot of years, if a character starts an animation, the sound that it would do keeps playing, as an example, if you attack on an enemy heavy, the sound of their heavy attack will still play even if you hit him and stop the animation.

ahmynuts

@Kabam Miike says it's the AI. In the video breakdown, you can hear my champ hit the stunned defender. He's NOT MOVING when I hit him. Her heavy hits a STUNNED defender, yet misses at the same time. Make it make sense.

Need some clarity here. This is more than just the A.I.

https://youtu.be/2jwWStKrLqk?si=IlzLly-i0RPok9Kv
Hey Fam, just so you know, the sound effects are not working properly since I dont know, a lot of years, if a character starts an animation, the sound that it would do keeps playing, as an example, if you attack on an enemy heavy, the sound of their heavy attack will still play even if you hit him and stop the animation.

Yes but that was a footnote of the larger issue which can clearly be seen in the video and pictures of heavy phasing through cgr

Manup456

I don’t even understand why the orginal thread was closed wouldn’t they want as much video of these interactions for the dev team as possible?

ahmynuts

I don’t even understand why the orginal thread was closed wouldn’t they want as much video of these interactions for the dev team as possible?

DrZola

I read the larger AI post as well as Miike’s dismissal of your original post @Terminatrix

All I could think of was this:

May not have been what he meant to say, but that’s how it came across.

Dr. Zola

flapjax

Seems like it's just an issue with when CMM's heavy actually makes contact. It isn't until the uppercut and the next frame he actually gets thrown back. In the video it seems like the stun had expired and the AI threw the special just before contact, activating the invincibility frames that specials have.

Sachhyam257

I had brought up this exact issue concerning AI reacting in the exact frame the stun wares off before (on a thread about AI throwing sps during stun). There was some dude telling me to git gud instead of complaining, well... who's laughing now. 🤫
Yeah and now it seems like they're trying to call that and this the same thing, which makes absolutely 0 sense because it's so obviously different that someone who knows literally nothing about development can even see it

I think it is the same thing and that Miike is spot on. The issue is the AI reacting exactly in the frame where the stun ends. The hitbox is not the issue, that is just a result of cmm's heavy animation and quirks related to the exact moment of contact.

The AI should not be able to react at the exact frame of stun expiration, if that is fixed, the heavy would land normally.

Manup456

How about the video I posted did a stun end early 🤔 😂
Seems like a recovery time issue to me.

https://youtu.be/mYIroOF1iHM?feature=shared

Sachhyam257

@Kabam Miike says it's the AI. In the video breakdown, you can hear my champ hit the stunned defender. He's NOT MOVING when I hit him. Her heavy hits a STUNNED defender, yet misses at the same time. Make it make sense.

Need some clarity here. This is more than just the A.I.

https://youtu.be/2jwWStKrLqk?si=IlzLly-i0RPok9Kv
Hey Fam, just so you know, the sound effects are not working properly since I dont know, a lot of years, if a character starts an animation, the sound that it would do keeps playing, as an example, if you attack on an enemy heavy, the sound of their heavy attack will still play even if you hit him and stop the animation.

Kabam Miike

Hey hey, I know this doesn't look like what you would think an "AI Issue" looks like, but I can promise you that this is an AI issue and was verified by our engineers. I did not reply without speaking to them first, which is why I had to take some time to reply.

Also, we don't have Hitboxes in this game, at least not in the traditional sense. This is not a console fighting game, and you cannot apply your understanding of those games to this one. We are a mobile game that exists with the limitations and abilities of mobile platforms.

ahmynuts

Hey hey, I know this doesn't look like what you would think an "AI Issue" looks like, but I can promise you that this is an AI issue and was verified by our engineers. I did not reply without speaking to them first, which is why I had to take some time to reply.

Also, we don't have Hitboxes in this game, at least not in the traditional sense. This is not a console fighting game, and you cannot apply your understanding of those games to this one. We are a mobile game that exists with the limitations and abilities of mobile platforms.

ahmynuts

@Kabam Miike says it's the AI. In the video breakdown, you can hear my champ hit the stunned defender. He's NOT MOVING when I hit him. Her heavy hits a STUNNED defender, yet misses at the same time. Make it make sense.

Need some clarity here. This is more than just the A.I.

https://youtu.be/2jwWStKrLqk?si=IlzLly-i0RPok9Kv
Hey Fam, just so you know, the sound effects are not working properly since I dont know, a lot of years, if a character starts an animation, the sound that it would do keeps playing, as an example, if you attack on an enemy heavy, the sound of their heavy attack will still play even if you hit him and stop the animation.

💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

iDestroyerZ

Hey hey, I know this doesn't look like what you would think an "AI Issue" looks like, but I can promise you that this is an AI issue and was verified by our engineers. I did not reply without speaking to them first, which is why I had to take some time to reply.

Also, we don't have Hitboxes in this game, at least not in the traditional sense. This is not a console fighting game, and you cannot apply your understanding of those games to this one. We are a mobile game that exists with the limitations and abilities of mobile platforms.

I lived to the day the community would say it's not an AI issue and Miike would say it is xD it's so weird
Btw @Kabam Miike so this is like a problem with the recovery that was too fast and wasn't supposed to be like that? Really trying to understand what the issue is, since now we know the game doesn't have hitbox, which is new to me cause i've always thought that was indeed a hitbox

Barney_Stinson

Another hitbox issue. Magneto teleported right before getting hit

https://youtu.be/9Gdc8uQSZpE?si=_s_ZJi0jWVWnIw9J

FrostDzNz

I thought this was normal behavior for the AI. I even adjusted my masteries just to give myself enough time during stuns to get a heavy off without getting instapunished.

And btw, the sound for attacks plays even when stuff isn't happening. I've been having a lag issue with my game for some time now. When my game freezes the sound for what should be happening still plays regardless of what may happen when it unfreezes. Thats ontop of the aforementioned issue of the sound still playing even if you intercept the AI midway through their heavy

unknown

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Terminatrix

Seems like it's just an issue with when CMM's heavy actually makes contact. It isn't until the uppercut and the next frame he actually gets thrown back. In the video it seems like the stun had expired and the AI threw the special just before contact, activating the invincibility frames that specials have.

The AI threw the special after contact..after the hit. CGR even lit up when he got hit. It was quick, but still happened.

DrZola

@Kabam Miike could you comment on AI recovery (a) during striker activation and (b) during heavy cancel? Does that fall under AI issues, or something else?

I’ve had both recently, and both *seem* like AI issues, although they could relate to some of the longer running issues with connectivity/device we’ve discussed.

Thx

Dr. Zola

Jefechuta

@Kabam Miike says it's the AI. In the video breakdown, you can hear my champ hit the stunned defender. He's NOT MOVING when I hit him. Her heavy hits a STUNNED defender, yet misses at the same time. Make it make sense.

Need some clarity here. This is more than just the A.I.

https://youtu.be/2jwWStKrLqk?si=IlzLly-i0RPok9Kv
Hey Fam, just so you know, the sound effects are not working properly since I dont know, a lot of years, if a character starts an animation, the sound that it would do keeps playing, as an example, if you attack on an enemy heavy, the sound of their heavy attack will still play even if you hit him and stop the animation.

Dude, you made my day, damn hahhahhaha

flapjax

Seems like it's just an issue with when CMM's heavy actually makes contact. It isn't until the uppercut and the next frame he actually gets thrown back. In the video it seems like the stun had expired and the AI threw the special just before contact, activating the invincibility frames that specials have.
The AI threw the special after contact..after the hit. CGR even lit up when he got hit. It was quick, but still happened.

I don't know, its hard to say for sure because we're talking about like milliseconds here, but in your second shot when she is following through with the heavy and her fist is raised, you can see its not exactly as high as like in mine when the damage actually hits. The next frame is when KM was actually thrown back from the heavy.

I've done clean heavy punishes in BGs against single hit heavy attack, and my champ will literally be punching them in the face as they special intercept me. I think what Miike said makes sense, it's just the AI reacting at inhuman speeds.

DNA3000

Seems like it's just an issue with when CMM's heavy actually makes contact. It isn't until the uppercut and the next frame he actually gets thrown back. In the video it seems like the stun had expired and the AI threw the special just before contact, activating the invincibility frames that specials have.
The AI threw the special after contact..after the hit. CGR even lit up when he got hit. It was quick, but still happened.

VFX does not guarantee the hit. VFX often goes off in situations where there is no hit registered.

Part of the problem here is that things can change state before, during, and after animation frames are rendered. So it is possible for the AI to make a decision, change the state of things, but not see the results of that until one or sometimes a couple frames later.

This is actually related to @Kabam Miike 's earlier statement that MCOC does not use hitboxes. A lot of people jumped on that comment as being semantic nonsense, or that Miike was making a useless statement, but in fact, it says something very important. Some people are talking about "hitboxes" but don't actually have any idea what that means, and some people do know what that means but don't seem to fully appreciate what "not having hitboxes" means, like that's just terminology. But it isn't just terminology. It implies MCOC uses Unity collision systems instead.

A hitbox is a form of direct collision detection. In 2D, you would have a "box" drawn around or within a target, and if in any animation frame something else is drawn in that box that's a collision. In 3D it is the same thing but with three dimensional bounding boxes.

But is this a collision?

Ignore the light trail as that is VFX and not part of the champion structure. I don't see CMM's fist actually touch KM in that animation frame. According to normal hitbox or sprite mechanics, that's not a collision**. She's not touching KM.

MCOC actually appears to use Unity collision mechanics. Collision mechanics do not use hitboxes. There's no box to hit. Rather, Unity uses its physics engine to detect when two objects collide. It can detect collisions even if no animation frame shows a collision, because it can "infer" that if the fist is down here in frame 947 and up there in frame 948, it must have crossed the space between and if KM is in that space, a collision must have happened.

But that is a *calculation* not a *detection*. Which means you have to start asking serious technical questions like when precisely does this happen. In frame 948? Before 948? After 948? Those are all potentially correct answers (and I'm not a Unity expert so I don't know the answer to that one). But when people talk about hitboxes, hitboxes come with baggage, the term starts to shape the discussion. People say, it is obviously a hitbox problem, because I can *see* the problem. But if this is a Unity collision system problem, then that *means* problems can sometimes decouple what's happening and what we see. In other words, we can't always fully trust our eyes.

I'm completely skipping over the fact that MCOC combat has rules that modify collision mechanics, such as who takes priority during an intercept (technically all collisions are between two objects, but which one is considered to "hit" the other one is something that goes above and beyond collision detection itself).

"Hitbox" is a term of art. I don't expect the average player to understand the technical details of hitboxes or physics-based collisions or the Unity engine. But conversely players who do not understand these things shouldn't use technical terms they don't understand. Not because it matters what we call things, but because what we call things implies all sorts of things that might not be true, but convince people that false things are "obviously" true.

The game is more complicated than I think most people appreciate. AI is not just about what the NPC does, what the NPC does changes the rules of physics of the game when it decides to do it (like who takes priority over who during a hit). It can change those rules in between animation frames which means we don't see that change. And what we see and what the game reacts to can be different, because sometimes the game sees things before we do, and sometimes it can see things *after* we do, because we think we see it, but the game only calculates with certainty what we are only inferring happened with our eyes. None of this is unique to MCOC, by the way.

** I'm aware there are advanced hitbox collision algorithms that are more sophisticated, but this is simplified for discussion purposes.

Terminatrix

I think the MCOC devs need to join this chat lol

Rasilover

The ai threw the special frame 1 after the stun worn off meaning it’s working as intended™️