Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
Disagree. I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs. I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev. If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
They are also limited by the lifetime of the universe, but we're talking here about practical limitations, not mathematical limitations. Players are limited by the 64-bit counters of the game in all respects. But the revive farms allowed players to pick any remotely conceivable amount of necessary revives and then go get them. A hundred. Five hundred. If you needed a thousand revives to do a Necropolis path, there was a way to get even that.
Kabam literally handed us a way to get revives via the Apothecary. The difference between the Apothecary and the low act revive farms is that the Apothecary is hard limited in how many you can get per unit time. This combined with player inventory limits means there is a practical limit on how many revives you can bring to bear on any one piece of content and separately places a pacing limit on how fast you can replenish that limit. That's a reasonable compromise on how many revives a player can bring to bear on content. You can quibble over the precise numbers, whether it should be 68 we can stash up or 78 or whatever. But that line has to be drawn, and it was drawn there.
The unlimited revive farms don't have those kinds of limits. They are limited only by how much effort a player is willing to put into them. Which means they are in effect a way to convert difficulty into grind in an unrestricted fashion. Whether a player uses 20 revives or 80 revives in a Necropolis path, there is still some minimum roster strength and skill level barrier they have to overcome. But if a player can decide, on their own, to convert that barrier into a much lower roster and skill barrier by just using 200 revives instead, or 400, then that completely trivializes the difficulty of that content. And because at the moment it soft gates Valiant, it turns the Valiant gate from being an achievement gate into a grind gate. And in the long run that makes the intent of challenging content both meaningless, and impossible to put meaningful rewards into.
A revive cap in challenging content would obviate much of the need to control revive farming, but that is the one solution that runs into the problem of monetization. If you put a revive cap into Necropolis, then in effect free to play players and spenders have the same limit, which is tantamount to saying spenders cannot spend to gain an advantage. But this game only exists because spenders can spend to gain advantages. In everything from champion collection to rank up progress to content completion there is always an avenue that says you can do it for free, or you can do it faster or easier if you spend. Without that, there would be no game, so those types of solutions are, most of the time, not practical.
But anyone accusing Kabam of "forcing" players to spend revives is taking that limitation far beyond its context. Kabam lets free to play players earn at least 68 revives through relatively moderate gameplay to use on any one piece of content. To say Kabam forces players to buy revives is saying no reasonable person could argue that most or all of the important content in the game can be done with that many revives; that to have a reasonable chance of doing the important content in this game even for a player with an appropriate skill set and roster strength would still require far more than that many revives. To me, that seems untenable.
Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
Disagree. I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs. I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev. If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
I just entered 5.4.6 and have no revives or energy refills on any path. I do have a few potions on paths. Are there extra revives and energy refills in the chests?
Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
Disagree. I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs. I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev. If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
I just entered 5.4.6 and have no revives or energy refills on any path. I do have a few potions on paths. Are there extra revives and energy refills in the chests?
It's based on RNG, but given the ease of the Quest and the fact that many people have Energy to burn, it's not that much of a job in my opinion.
Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
Disagree. I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs. I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev. If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
I just entered 5.4.6 and have no revives or energy refills on any path. I do have a few potions on paths. Are there extra revives and energy refills in the chests?
It's based on RNG, but given the ease of the Quest and the fact that many people have Energy to burn, it's not that much of a job in my opinion.
How long did it take you to complete? You’re still constrained by how much time you have to spend on it.
And if you run it 100 times are you still coming out ahead in energy?
One run that had good RNG isn’t really proof of anything.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
They are also limited by the lifetime of the universe, but we're talking here about practical limitations, not mathematical limitations. Players are limited by the 64-bit counters of the game in all respects. But the revive farms allowed players to pick any remotely conceivable amount of necessary revives and then go get them. A hundred. Five hundred. If you needed a thousand revives to do a Necropolis path, there was a way to get even that.
Kabam literally handed us a way to get revives via the Apothecary. The difference between the Apothecary and the low act revive farms is that the Apothecary is hard limited in how many you can get per unit time. This combined with player inventory limits means there is a practical limit on how many revives you can bring to bear on any one piece of content and separately places a pacing limit on how fast you can replenish that limit. That's a reasonable compromise on how many revives a player can bring to bear on content. You can quibble over the precise numbers, whether it should be 68 we can stash up or 78 or whatever. But that line has to be drawn, and it was drawn there.
The unlimited revive farms don't have those kinds of limits. They are limited only by how much effort a player is willing to put into them. Which means they are in effect a way to convert difficulty into grind in an unrestricted fashion. Whether a player uses 20 revives or 80 revives in a Necropolis path, there is still some minimum roster strength and skill level barrier they have to overcome. But if a player can decide, on their own, to convert that barrier into a much lower roster and skill barrier by just using 200 revives instead, or 400, then that completely trivializes the difficulty of that content. And because at the moment it soft gates Valiant, it turns the Valiant gate from being an achievement gate into a grind gate. And in the long run that makes the intent of challenging content both meaningless, and impossible to put meaningful rewards into.
A revive cap in challenging content would obviate much of the need to control revive farming, but that is the one solution that runs into the problem of monetization. If you put a revive cap into Necropolis, then in effect free to play players and spenders have the same limit, which is tantamount to saying spenders cannot spend to gain an advantage. But this game only exists because spenders can spend to gain advantages. In everything from champion collection to rank up progress to content completion there is always an avenue that says you can do it for free, or you can do it faster or easier if you spend. Without that, there would be no game, so those types of solutions are, most of the time, not practical.
But anyone accusing Kabam of "forcing" players to spend revives is taking that limitation far beyond its context. Kabam lets free to play players earn at least 68 revives through relatively moderate gameplay to use on any one piece of content. To say Kabam forces players to buy revives is saying no reasonable person could argue that most or all of the important content in the game can be done with that many revives; that to have a reasonable chance of doing the important content in this game even for a player with an appropriate skill set and roster strength would still require far more than that many revives. To me, that seems untenable.
I don't really see any difference between grinding 500 revives and spending 20k units in revives. Well... actually there is a difference, Kabam is only nerfing one.
Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
Disagree. I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs. I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev. If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
I just entered 5.4.6 and have no revives or energy refills on any path. I do have a few potions on paths. Are there extra revives and energy refills in the chests?
It's based on RNG, but given the ease of the Quest and the fact that many people have Energy to burn, it's not that much of a job in my opinion.
How long did it take you to complete? You’re still constrained by how much time you have to spend on it.
And if you run it 100 times are you still coming out ahead in energy?
One run that had good RNG isn’t really proof of anything.
15 minutes maybe? I was playing while getting into cabs and shopping, so it wasn't a great exertion.
My stance on revive farming is that spending units and possibly cash on pots and revives feels really bad to me. I remember having to buy Odins for LOL and Act 6 and it sucked. I'd much rather spend on offers and crystals because those are fun and make me feel good. I also am much more likely to spend on offers when I'm happy and less likely to spend if I'm not happy with the game.
I'll do the content regardless because that's how I am but I know that many many more people will just not do the Everest content. I'd love to know how many AOL clears there've been since the Act 3 nerf because it has to be pretty small.
My stance on revive farming is that spending units and possibly cash on pots and revives feels really bad to me. I remember having to buy Odins for LOL and Act 6 and it sucked. I'd much rather spend on offers and crystals because those are fun and make me feel good. I also am much more likely to spend on offers when I'm happy and less likely to spend if I'm not happy with the game.
I'll do the content regardless because that's how I am but I know that many many more people will just not do the Everest content. I'd love to know how many AOL clears there've been since the Act 3 nerf because it has to be pretty small.
This is a very good take! Its in the same line as a happy worker is a good worker. A happy summoner is more likely to spend on the game. A disgruntled one is likely to close their wallet.
If I did the math right, buying out the cyber deals gives you 22,295 units which is 557 single revives. And you can buy them as you need them so there is no expiration factor.
If we’re talking about revives trivializing content, the cyber deal just did that way more than revive farming.
So you can’t have it both ways. If easy access to revives is bad, they can’t still be purchased with no limit.
So we’re back to - this is a move to make powering through content more costly, not prevent it. Which is fine, I’m not opposed to that, I just want to call it what it is.
Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
Disagree. I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs. I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev. If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
I just entered 5.4.6 and have no revives or energy refills on any path. I do have a few potions on paths. Are there extra revives and energy refills in the chests?
The irony that he used his sample size of 1 to "prove" a point.
My only problem with these end game everest style quests is that they have built in timers that you cant get around, if there was no timer like that I could solo a lot of these fights. The game basically forces you to have revives because of that.
Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
Disagree. I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs. I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev. If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
I just entered 5.4.6 and have no revives or energy refills on any path. I do have a few potions on paths. Are there extra revives and energy refills in the chests?
The irony that he used his sample size of 1 to "prove" a point.
No RNG for me!
RNG is for everyone, but people keep missing the point. They've told Players many times that anything like these farms is not something they want in the game. Yet everytime one of them is changed, the usual arguments come out regarding content, bugs, money, you name it. Which tells us one thing at least. They're advantageous enough for people to try and justify, and that usually means they're a back door.
My stance on revive farming is that spending units and possibly cash on pots and revives feels really bad to me. I remember having to buy Odins for LOL and Act 6 and it sucked. I'd much rather spend on offers and crystals because those are fun and make me feel good. I also am much more likely to spend on offers when I'm happy and less likely to spend if I'm not happy with the game.
I'll do the content regardless because that's how I am but I know that many many more people will just not do the Everest content. I'd love to know how many AOL clears there've been since the Act 3 nerf because it has to be pretty small.
*To clarify, it's for everyone who wants to do it. That doesn't mean it's going to be immediately doable for everyone, whether the limiting factor is skill, or resources. Sometimes it takes time and planning to prepare for a run. That's not a design flaw. That's a sign of a successful design for what it is.
If I did the math right, buying out the cyber deals gives you 22,295 units which is 557 single revives. And you can buy them as you need them so there is no expiration factor.
If we’re talking about revives trivializing content, the cyber deal just did that way more than revive farming.
So you can’t have it both ways. If easy access to revives is bad, they can’t still be purchased with no limit.
So we’re back to - this is a move to make powering through content more costly, not prevent it. Which is fine, I’m not opposed to that, I just want to call it what it is.
Progress in this game has always come from one of three places: Skill, Money, or Time. This is no different.
Players are doing Necropolis paths itemless. It’s happening. Therefore it is possible to do this with enough skill. Do I have that much skill? Absolutely not! But it’s possible.
Money is doing what you’re talking about, buying units to convert them into an insane source of revives. And that’s an option! It’s a very dumb option unless you’re ludicrously wealthy, but it’s an option!
Finally, there’s time. This is the one that revive farming falls under. You spend your time grinding out revives so that you have enough on hand to tackle the content.
The issue here is that story content revive farming is too efficient for Kabam’s standards. It takes a tremendous amount of skill, an enormous amount of money, OR like a couple days of free time to auto play through farming revives. You see the difference here, right? The move to relying more on the apothecary and milestone revives is to get the time option to be more in line with the skill and money options. It’s still totally doable to farm up the amount of revives necessary, it will just take more time than it does currently.
I don't really see any difference between grinding 500 revives and spending 20k units in revives. Well... actually there is a difference, Kabam is only nerfing one.
I see several large differences, but if you don't see any difference between the two, then there's no problem for you, is there?
My only problem with these end game everest style quests is that they have built in timers that you cant get around, if there was no timer like that I could solo a lot of these fights. The game basically forces you to have revives because of that.
So what you're saying is everyone who got a solo in Necropolis cheated?
The CR timer is there for two reasons. One, to give an advantage to players who bring higher rarity champs into Necropolis. Because even in Necropolis, there are still advantages to building roster, and over time as 7* champs become increasingly common that advantage will also become increasingly common and easier for even average players to take advantage of. Higher rarity means longer timer, and generally more damage per second fitted into that timer.
Two: to add an element of urgency to the fights, so if someone finds a super slow but safe option, that option is not overly advantageous over more aggressive options.
The Necropolis is meant to stand relevant for a long time, hopefully much longer than Labyrinth or Abyss did. The timers make Necropolis harder for the players who attempt it today when it is the top tier content soft gating Valiant, but those timers will in effect get weaker as the general player population gets stronger, making Necropolis slowly get easier over time to accommodate an increasing percentage of the player population. It will probably be a very long time before it gets easy, but it will get easier as more players grow their rosters to get longer timers and can do more within those timers.
My only problem with these end game everest style quests is that they have built in timers that you cant get around, if there was no timer like that I could solo a lot of these fights. The game basically forces you to have revives because of that.
So what you're saying is everyone who got a solo in Necropolis cheated?
The CR timer is there for two reasons. One, to give an advantage to players who bring higher rarity champs into Necropolis. Because even in Necropolis, there are still advantages to building roster, and over time as 7* champs become increasingly common that advantage will also become increasingly common and easier for even average players to take advantage of. Higher rarity means longer timer, and generally more damage per second fitted into that timer.
Two: to add an element of urgency to the fights, so if someone finds a super slow but safe option, that option is not overly advantageous over more aggressive options.
The Necropolis is meant to stand relevant for a long time, hopefully much longer than Labyrinth or Abyss did. The timers make Necropolis harder for the players who attempt it today when it is the top tier content soft gating Valiant, but those timers will in effect get weaker as the general player population gets stronger, making Necropolis slowly get easier over time to accommodate an increasing percentage of the player population. It will probably be a very long time before it gets easy, but it will get easier as more players grow their rosters to get longer timers and can do more within those timers.
How’s the roster relevant in terms of how long timers last? Timers are tied to relics and how often you use them. Even if you use them as soon as relic is available, you’ll get 0 timer and it has nothing to do with roster strength. You may do more damage during the same time but the timers won’t change.
How’s the roster relevant in terms of how long timers last? Timers are tied to relics and how often you use them. Even if you use them as soon as relic is available, you’ll get 0 timer and it has nothing to do with roster strength. You may do more damage during the same time but the timers won’t change.
they’re also tied to how strong your champ is, rank 2 7 stars get more time than rank 5 6 stars
My only problem with these end game everest style quests is that they have built in timers that you cant get around, if there was no timer like that I could solo a lot of these fights. The game basically forces you to have revives because of that.
So what you're saying is everyone who got a solo in Necropolis cheated?
The CR timer is there for two reasons. One, to give an advantage to players who bring higher rarity champs into Necropolis. Because even in Necropolis, there are still advantages to building roster, and over time as 7* champs become increasingly common that advantage will also become increasingly common and easier for even average players to take advantage of. Higher rarity means longer timer, and generally more damage per second fitted into that timer.
Two: to add an element of urgency to the fights, so if someone finds a super slow but safe option, that option is not overly advantageous over more aggressive options.
The Necropolis is meant to stand relevant for a long time, hopefully much longer than Labyrinth or Abyss did. The timers make Necropolis harder for the players who attempt it today when it is the top tier content soft gating Valiant, but those timers will in effect get weaker as the general player population gets stronger, making Necropolis slowly get easier over time to accommodate an increasing percentage of the player population. It will probably be a very long time before it gets easy, but it will get easier as more players grow their rosters to get longer timers and can do more within those timers.
By the time general player population gets stronger, Necropolis rewards would have already been outdated. It’s a now or never situation for most players, similar like Abyss was. Whoever doesn’t do it before 8.4 drops to get the Valiant title earlier, is very unlikely to dive in Necropolis after they get the title. I never did Abyss, neither I’m planning to do so anytime soon. Since I didn’t attempted Abyss at drop to get TB (I became by exploring Act6 chapters that were more planning/skilled based content rather than choosing the way to TB from a die/revive approach content), there was not incentive to do it afterwards apart from having all content 100% explored. Rewards are severely outdated and doesn’t match the time/effort/resources needed even with the current rosters we have. Necropolis currently gates the Valiant title, by the time it stops being that gate, popularity of the content will fall dramatically. Most newer players won’t bother with such content, like they never bothered with Labyrinth and Abyss, especially now that revives will become more scarce and due to that more valuable.
My only problem with these end game everest style quests is that they have built in timers that you cant get around, if there was no timer like that I could solo a lot of these fights. The game basically forces you to have revives because of that.
So what you're saying is everyone who got a solo in Necropolis cheated?
The CR timer is there for two reasons. One, to give an advantage to players who bring higher rarity champs into Necropolis. Because even in Necropolis, there are still advantages to building roster, and over time as 7* champs become increasingly common that advantage will also become increasingly common and easier for even average players to take advantage of. Higher rarity means longer timer, and generally more damage per second fitted into that timer.
Two: to add an element of urgency to the fights, so if someone finds a super slow but safe option, that option is not overly advantageous over more aggressive options.
The Necropolis is meant to stand relevant for a long time, hopefully much longer than Labyrinth or Abyss did. The timers make Necropolis harder for the players who attempt it today when it is the top tier content soft gating Valiant, but those timers will in effect get weaker as the general player population gets stronger, making Necropolis slowly get easier over time to accommodate an increasing percentage of the player population. It will probably be a very long time before it gets easy, but it will get easier as more players grow their rosters to get longer timers and can do more within those timers.
By the time general player population gets stronger, Necropolis rewards would have already been outdated. It’s a now or never situation for most players, similar like Abyss was. Whoever doesn’t do it before 8.4 drops to get the Valiant title earlier, is very unlikely to dive in Necropolis after they get the title. I never did Abyss, neither I’m planning to do so anytime soon. Since I didn’t attempted Abyss at drop to get TB (I became by exploring Act6 chapters that were more planning/skilled based content rather than choosing the way to TB from a die/revive approach content), there was not incentive to do it afterwards apart from having all content 100% explored. Rewards are severely outdated and doesn’t match the time/effort/resources needed even with the current rosters we have. Necropolis currently gates the Valiant title, by the time it stops being that gate, popularity of the content will fall dramatically. Most newer players won’t bother with such content, like they never bothered with Labyrinth and Abyss, especially now that revives will become more scarce and due to that more valuable.
Necropolis rewards have been specifically calibrated to maintain relevancy far into the future. A unique 7* champion that is a potent defender, a mastery point, a 7* champion selector, and several other rewards will have usefulness for years to come. The mastery point especially is something that will never lose value. Additionally, because the enrage timer isn’t as punishing as previous Everest content, it will become noticeably easier over time.
Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
Disagree. I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs. I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev. If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
I just entered 5.4.6 and have no revives or energy refills on any path. I do have a few potions on paths. Are there extra revives and energy refills in the chests?
It's based on RNG, but given the ease of the Quest and the fact that many people have Energy to burn, it's not that much of a job in my opinion.
How long did it take you to complete? You’re still constrained by how much time you have to spend on it.
And if you run it 100 times are you still coming out ahead in energy?
One run that had good RNG isn’t really proof of anything.
My last run took 6 minutes to autofight 5.4.6. There are a couple of path inputs needed so may take a bit longer if I wasn’t paying attention.
Kabam literally handed us a way to get revives via the Apothecary. The difference between the Apothecary and the low act revive farms is that the Apothecary is hard limited in how many you can get per unit time. This combined with player inventory limits means there is a practical limit on how many revives you can bring to bear on any one piece of content and separately places a pacing limit on how fast you can replenish that limit. That's a reasonable compromise on how many revives a player can bring to bear on content. You can quibble over the precise numbers, whether it should be 68 we can stash up or 78 or whatever. But that line has to be drawn, and it was drawn there.
The unlimited revive farms don't have those kinds of limits. They are limited only by how much effort a player is willing to put into them. Which means they are in effect a way to convert difficulty into grind in an unrestricted fashion. Whether a player uses 20 revives or 80 revives in a Necropolis path, there is still some minimum roster strength and skill level barrier they have to overcome. But if a player can decide, on their own, to convert that barrier into a much lower roster and skill barrier by just using 200 revives instead, or 400, then that completely trivializes the difficulty of that content. And because at the moment it soft gates Valiant, it turns the Valiant gate from being an achievement gate into a grind gate. And in the long run that makes the intent of challenging content both meaningless, and impossible to put meaningful rewards into.
A revive cap in challenging content would obviate much of the need to control revive farming, but that is the one solution that runs into the problem of monetization. If you put a revive cap into Necropolis, then in effect free to play players and spenders have the same limit, which is tantamount to saying spenders cannot spend to gain an advantage. But this game only exists because spenders can spend to gain advantages. In everything from champion collection to rank up progress to content completion there is always an avenue that says you can do it for free, or you can do it faster or easier if you spend. Without that, there would be no game, so those types of solutions are, most of the time, not practical.
But anyone accusing Kabam of "forcing" players to spend revives is taking that limitation far beyond its context. Kabam lets free to play players earn at least 68 revives through relatively moderate gameplay to use on any one piece of content. To say Kabam forces players to buy revives is saying no reasonable person could argue that most or all of the important content in the game can be done with that many revives; that to have a reasonable chance of doing the important content in this game even for a player with an appropriate skill set and roster strength would still require far more than that many revives. To me, that seems untenable.
Your argument about someone using 200 or 400 revives is still ignoring the fact that units can be used to buy revives. Whether they are from arena via milestones and battlechips or purchased, there is no limit to how many revives someone can bring to bear on any content. This change only impacts how many can be obtained and held at one time without spending units. People can still spend 200 revives on a path after this change.
And a revive cap seems fairly easy to monetize. Everyone gets 50 revives for a path. Sigil users get an extra 10. Everyone can also buy an extra 10 if you hit your cap for 250 units. Make it an extra 15 for Sigil users to buy with units to further incentivize the Sigil.
If this is about controlling difficulty and overusing revives being bad this isn’t changing anything.
It still seems like it’s about forcing unit spending if you want to rush things.
Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
Disagree. I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs. I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev. If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
I just entered 5.4.6 and have no revives or energy refills on any path. I do have a few potions on paths. Are there extra revives and energy refills in the chests?
It's based on RNG, but given the ease of the Quest and the fact that many people have Energy to burn, it's not that much of a job in my opinion.
How long did it take you to complete? You’re still constrained by how much time you have to spend on it.
And if you run it 100 times are you still coming out ahead in energy?
One run that had good RNG isn’t really proof of anything.
My last run took 6 minutes to autofight 5.4.6. There are a couple of path inputs needed so may take a bit longer if I wasn’t paying attention.
So you can run it 10 times an hour. So if you get a revive every run and enough energy refills to never run out, you can get 10 revives an hour. So 100 revives would take 10 hours of grinding.
So 50 hours of grinding with RNG on your side would still be less revives than someone could buy with the units from the cyber deals.
So 50 hours of grinding with RNG on your side would still be less revives than someone could buy with the units from the cyber deals.
i don’t think you seem to understand. this is a free to play mobile game. of course if you drop a band on it you will be able to buy enough resources to brute force through content. but that is not what the developers are intending for players to do, hence why they are removing revive farming. to allow them to design content that does not require 300 revives to beat
So 50 hours of grinding with RNG on your side would still be less revives than someone could buy with the units from the cyber deals.
i don’t think you seem to understand. this is a free to play mobile game. of course if you drop a band on it you will be able to buy enough resources to brute force through content. but that is not what the developers are intending for players to do, hence why they are removing revive farming. to allow them to design content that does not require 300 revives to beat
I do understand. I’m just pointing out that you’d have to commit more than a standard full time work week worth of time to grinding to accumulate the amount of revives being thrown around in this thread as excessive. I’m also pointing out that spenders can purchase that quantity of revives in a weekend.
So we’re back to, it doesn’t matter if you throw several hundred revives at something as long as you spend units for them and don’t grind for them.
It's actually pathetic that this got 10k views and 150 around comments. People need to ignore these posts and have deserted in next hour or two but no, let's make fun of OP and give this thread more uptime. I know Kabam already knows the spots but it'll be better to not give air to these sorts of bait posts.
Having a source that people can spam over and over isn't an intended aspect of this game.
Are you familiar with battlechips from the arena? Unlimited source of gold and units? Similar constraint of time but otherwise no less farmable than revives in lower act content.
And again, farmed revives are not unlimited. They are constrained by energy and time to run the quests.
Unlimited revives are the problem. I can understand the disappointment of the players who need far more revives to do the content they want than the game allows for without revive farms. But while the game tries to have something for everyone, it does not give everything to everyone. Some things, particularly the highest difficulty challenging content, isn't meant for everyone to do. If you can't do it with what's available, you can't do it. Kabam doesn't see that as a problem, and is not going to do anything to fix it.
Again, farmed revives aren’t unlimited. They are constrained by time and energy. Purchased revives are unlimited. This change does nothing to reduce the possibility of using revives to power through content above your current roster/skill level. It does further monetize that approach.
A revive cap on content would limit powering through.
I once was told in these forums that the daily energy limit was designed so players would have a good life / game balance. But what about buying all the refills you want from the store, I asked. I guess we don’t care about the mental health of people in that case.
Comments
I just did a little experiment. I ran 5.4.6, and the first spawn I got two full Energy Refills and two L1 Revs.
I finished the Quest with Energy to spare, and spawned another L1 Rev.
If people can't see how that's too easy for the payout, then I don't know what to say.
Kabam literally handed us a way to get revives via the Apothecary. The difference between the Apothecary and the low act revive farms is that the Apothecary is hard limited in how many you can get per unit time. This combined with player inventory limits means there is a practical limit on how many revives you can bring to bear on any one piece of content and separately places a pacing limit on how fast you can replenish that limit. That's a reasonable compromise on how many revives a player can bring to bear on content. You can quibble over the precise numbers, whether it should be 68 we can stash up or 78 or whatever. But that line has to be drawn, and it was drawn there.
The unlimited revive farms don't have those kinds of limits. They are limited only by how much effort a player is willing to put into them. Which means they are in effect a way to convert difficulty into grind in an unrestricted fashion. Whether a player uses 20 revives or 80 revives in a Necropolis path, there is still some minimum roster strength and skill level barrier they have to overcome. But if a player can decide, on their own, to convert that barrier into a much lower roster and skill barrier by just using 200 revives instead, or 400, then that completely trivializes the difficulty of that content. And because at the moment it soft gates Valiant, it turns the Valiant gate from being an achievement gate into a grind gate. And in the long run that makes the intent of challenging content both meaningless, and impossible to put meaningful rewards into.
A revive cap in challenging content would obviate much of the need to control revive farming, but that is the one solution that runs into the problem of monetization. If you put a revive cap into Necropolis, then in effect free to play players and spenders have the same limit, which is tantamount to saying spenders cannot spend to gain an advantage. But this game only exists because spenders can spend to gain advantages. In everything from champion collection to rank up progress to content completion there is always an avenue that says you can do it for free, or you can do it faster or easier if you spend. Without that, there would be no game, so those types of solutions are, most of the time, not practical.
But anyone accusing Kabam of "forcing" players to spend revives is taking that limitation far beyond its context. Kabam lets free to play players earn at least 68 revives through relatively moderate gameplay to use on any one piece of content. To say Kabam forces players to buy revives is saying no reasonable person could argue that most or all of the important content in the game can be done with that many revives; that to have a reasonable chance of doing the important content in this game even for a player with an appropriate skill set and roster strength would still require far more than that many revives. To me, that seems untenable.
And if you run it 100 times are you still coming out ahead in energy?
One run that had good RNG isn’t really proof of anything.
Well... actually there is a difference, Kabam is only nerfing one.
I'll do the content regardless because that's how I am but I know that many many more people will just not do the Everest content. I'd love to know how many AOL clears there've been since the Act 3 nerf because it has to be pretty small.
If we’re talking about revives trivializing content, the cyber deal just did that way more than revive farming.
So you can’t have it both ways. If easy access to revives is bad, they can’t still be purchased with no limit.
So we’re back to - this is a move to make powering through content more costly, not prevent it. Which is fine, I’m not opposed to that, I just want to call it what it is.
No RNG for me!
They've told Players many times that anything like these farms is not something they want in the game. Yet everytime one of them is changed, the usual arguments come out regarding content, bugs, money, you name it.
Which tells us one thing at least. They're advantageous enough for people to try and justify, and that usually means they're a back door.
Sometimes it takes time and planning to prepare for a run. That's not a design flaw. That's a sign of a successful design for what it is.
Players are doing Necropolis paths itemless. It’s happening. Therefore it is possible to do this with enough skill. Do I have that much skill? Absolutely not! But it’s possible.
Money is doing what you’re talking about, buying units to convert them into an insane source of revives. And that’s an option! It’s a very dumb option unless you’re ludicrously wealthy, but it’s an option!
Finally, there’s time. This is the one that revive farming falls under. You spend your time grinding out revives so that you have enough on hand to tackle the content.
The issue here is that story content revive farming is too efficient for Kabam’s standards. It takes a tremendous amount of skill, an enormous amount of money, OR like a couple days of free time to auto play through farming revives. You see the difference here, right? The move to relying more on the apothecary and milestone revives is to get the time option to be more in line with the skill and money options. It’s still totally doable to farm up the amount of revives necessary, it will just take more time than it does currently.
The CR timer is there for two reasons. One, to give an advantage to players who bring higher rarity champs into Necropolis. Because even in Necropolis, there are still advantages to building roster, and over time as 7* champs become increasingly common that advantage will also become increasingly common and easier for even average players to take advantage of. Higher rarity means longer timer, and generally more damage per second fitted into that timer.
Two: to add an element of urgency to the fights, so if someone finds a super slow but safe option, that option is not overly advantageous over more aggressive options.
The Necropolis is meant to stand relevant for a long time, hopefully much longer than Labyrinth or Abyss did. The timers make Necropolis harder for the players who attempt it today when it is the top tier content soft gating Valiant, but those timers will in effect get weaker as the general player population gets stronger, making Necropolis slowly get easier over time to accommodate an increasing percentage of the player population. It will probably be a very long time before it gets easy, but it will get easier as more players grow their rosters to get longer timers and can do more within those timers.
It’s a now or never situation for most players, similar like Abyss was.
Whoever doesn’t do it before 8.4 drops to get the Valiant title earlier, is very unlikely to dive in Necropolis after they get the title.
I never did Abyss, neither I’m planning to do so anytime soon.
Since I didn’t attempted Abyss at drop to get TB (I became by exploring Act6 chapters that were more planning/skilled based content rather than choosing the way to TB from a die/revive approach content), there was not incentive to do it afterwards apart from having all content 100% explored.
Rewards are severely outdated and doesn’t match the time/effort/resources needed even with the current rosters we have.
Necropolis currently gates the Valiant title, by the time it stops being that gate, popularity of the content will fall dramatically.
Most newer players won’t bother with such content, like they never bothered with Labyrinth and Abyss, especially now that revives will become more scarce and due to that more valuable.
And a revive cap seems fairly easy to monetize. Everyone gets 50 revives for a path. Sigil users get an extra 10. Everyone can also buy an extra 10 if you hit your cap for 250 units. Make it an extra 15 for Sigil users to buy with units to further incentivize the Sigil.
If this is about controlling difficulty and overusing revives being bad this isn’t changing anything.
It still seems like it’s about forcing unit spending if you want to rush things.
So 50 hours of grinding with RNG on your side would still be less revives than someone could buy with the units from the cyber deals.
So we’re back to, it doesn’t matter if you throw several hundred revives at something as long as you spend units for them and don’t grind for them.
People need to ignore these posts and have deserted in next hour or two but no, let's make fun of OP and give this thread more uptime. I know Kabam already knows the spots but it'll be better to not give air to these sorts of bait posts.
But what about buying all the refills you want from the store, I asked. I guess we don’t care about the mental health of people in that case.