#BuffDeathlessGuillotine

Just logged into my game, checked my roster, saw Deathless Guillotine and almost died of laughter. Oh wow is she terrible. I mean like come on Kabam, really??? the guy who designed her on the livestream said she wasn't a long fight champ but she isnt even a short fight champ. She's a reskin of pre buff guillotine and is absolutely unusable for anyone that gets her. Grinding for 7* nothing.

Comments

Pikolu

You haven't even played her yet bro.

RonSwanson

Atleast wait until they shadow nerf her...

GroundedWisdom

Jesus, she's not even released yet.

Bendy

Things never change on this forum

Wong_98

Wait until you play her before saying that she’s terrible… you never know what interactions a kit might bring to the table

ItsClobberinTime

People really out here talking like they know for a fact her degens will have garbage damage.

DNA3000

Technically, a reskin is a champion that is essentially identical but just has cosmetic differences. Deathless Guillotine is not a reskin. In fact, it looks an awful lot like what players were saying would be a better tune up than the actual Guillotine 2.0 tune up was. It keeps her heal mechanics, replaces bleed with degen to remove her weakness to that immunity, and keeps the original SP3 mechanic so many players were upset about losing and even lowers the number of souls lost when using it.

The fact that you call this a "reskin" suggests that either a) you didn't actually look at the champion, you're just reacting to social media gibberish or b) you don't actually know how OG Guillotine worked, and what people liked and didn't like about her and are just assuming that the Deathless champ is identical to it.

Or, you know, it is just Monday on the forums.

Reidlos

Guillotine is what got me into MCOC, and as a massive fan of both the character and her story, I both understand exactly what they did with this and also hate it. The core design of Guillotine from 2015 doesn't hold up at all today. Her sp3 has been replaced by Purgatory, Her Spectre is wide-spread, her life steal might be decent but many other champs have better healing, etc. Guillotine herself isn't great most of the time without multiple synergies or fighting buff heavy champs, and instead of doing something amazing to breathe new life into her and her family, they slap a coat of paint of a 2015 design and tag on some incredibly mundane synergies. I even went and checked her armor rating. Just like her 2015 version, it's boosted compared to her now. They took the exact kit from 2015, tweaked a few numbers in like an hour, and called it a day. I was hype to rock a Guilly team for the hell of it, now... eh...? if you want Crit rating, Guillotine herself has an infinitely better synergy with Night Thrasher, and that's just one champ. In order to feel anything from the crit bonus you need multiple. And the boost to her healing continues to seem held back, and what Deathless Guillotine gets is lackluster as well. Everything about this character screams unplay tested. And it's disheartening. Makes me lose a lot of faith in the team to ever do something cool with Guillotine ever again. Guillotine's buff was very heavily low-balled, Purgatory came out before the rebalance program so who knows if she'll ever see the light of day, G99 isn't even the queen of long content like she was designed to be, and Morningstar is still a worse version of Longshot unless you're doing questing. Makes me depressed. I pray to God I'm wrong and either the numbers don't do her justice or some of this is a placeholder (but the latter seems unlikely). Sorry to anyone reading, I just needed to rant about this, and I figured this was as good a place as any.

Edited Note: No, I'm not asking for a powerful champion. I'm not asking for a super meta champion. I have both Guillotine and Purgatory R4 and use them both regularly whenever I can possibly make them work. But having a trophy champion feel so incredibly barebones isn't rewarding or satisfying in the slightest.

ahmynuts

They feared the power i held in my own thread so here i am. Let her release first my guy

o_o

Not just wait until you play her… wait until you play her a decent amount, lest we end up with another “Apocalypse is a dud” situation

Canucks37

Her special 1 doesnt even have an ability attached to it. Its fair to say thats she at the very least has had minimal effort put into her kit

Jefechuta

Really missed old Guillotine, gonna love playing 7* Deathless Guill tbh

Pikolu

It is the old guillotine kit that got a nice value update. You might not have had the chance to play OG guilly before her rework, but some people did prefer her before her update rather than after her update. I, for one, really like her old kit and the insane regen you can get from her awakened ability too. I imagine she is going to be insane in BGs, especially because no one is immune to degen. She looks like a really solid and underrated champion right now.

Greekhit

This might be an unpopular opinion, but if Deathless Guilly turns out to be a tuned up version of OG, I’ll definitely love her 😍

WinterFields

Aegon doesn't have an ability in his Sp1 either. Applying that same standard to him, I hope they buff my r5

Wicket329

Exactly what I was thinking. People on this forum were trash talking Dr. Doom when he released. America Chavez’s buff was seen by many as lackluster. People thought iHulk was bad and that Red Guardian was going to top tier lists. There are so many examples of this community just completely misreading champs on or prior to release, and we never learn.

Do I expect her to be on Doom’s level? Absolutely not. But she’ll be fun to play and a real hit in the nostalgia for people who’ve been around the Contest for a while. I’m really happy with her coming back.

Canucks37

Aegons "Passive Combo Meter Abilities" text box alone has about triple Deathless Guillys abilities alone. Theyre not comparable. This guilly was just lazy, I bet the dev didnt spend more than 1 hour on her

captain_rogers

Jeez she's not even released yet bruh

DerpyEagle

She looks awesome wdym?!

Suros_moon

Genuinely, I have to ask, I lined up a lot of quotes from kabam in another post but I think I only need one to illustrate the point:

“Similar to those two champions [in reference to the difference between Guillotine 2099 and the original] this is not another reskin”.

So the question is this: would any reasonable player hear this quote and come to the conclusion that the level of difference we were going to see in this champion amounted to value changes? Guillotine 2099 is so different from guillotine that, on release, she elicited more comparisons to star lord and aegon than she did guillotine herself. Dare I say, the ONLY thing she shares in common with her are cosmetics and debuffs on basics. Why on earth would you invoke THIS comparison unless your intent was to showcase how fresh a champion was supposed to feel. There are half a dozen examples of value buff champions they could have used- but they chose to use an example where we saw a kit completely alien to the original which set the community up to be disappointed.

Again, how strong she is really a non issue for me. They said explicitly she would not be meta defining- all good. They DID go out of their way to harp on how *different* she would be which is why this misses the mark [with the caveat that hopefully this is just a filler kit]

Pikolu

Where did you hear that? If anything they harped that it would be similar to her kit with a more modern approach to creating it. If you take "more modern approach" and extrapolate that to mean "vastly different", then that is your own dang fault.

Suros_moon

Sure I already pointed out that this quote is obviously overplaying how different this champ would be kitties but here are a few more:

"If were to just guillotine with a new skin, that would kind of fall flat"
"These are going to have, not a completely new kit, but we would be taking a kit and creating something unique"
"We want to make sure there are some call backs but what we settled on was a Remix of the champion"

That's a whole lot of sentences which could have said: We will be giving value updates to the original guillotine. There is nothing unique or special about value tune ups. A "call back" is like a cute nod to the original. Kind of like how Guillotine 2099 places debuts on basic hits and has massive damage sp3 capability. A shot for shot remake on a newer camera is not a "call back" its the same champ with 3 numbers being edited. Ill grant you it didn't need to be a ground up rework, that doesn't mean you get to extend the fury duration on Ms marvel and claim she's not a reskin of captain marvel

Pikolu

It isn't just a reskin though. If you'd like, I outlined all the changes here.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6029252/uploads/editor/av/2huo7fz5385a.png

This very much feels like "nod to old kit", "something unique", and "not a reskin".

I personally can't wait to get her and add her to my BGs deck, she will probably do very well there.

Suros_moon

I agree insofar as the literal definition of not having the exact same kit word for word. I disagree in terms of how this is "similar to how guillotine 2099 is not just a reskin". If there is a ladder extending from reskin to rework this is literally the rung right above reskin which makes it far more accurate to refer to it as such than anything even in the same universe as what guillotine 2099 is to Guillotine. Like I said, if tomorrow, kabam announced how, Similar to photon and Captain marvel MCU, Ms Marvel and Captain Marvel were going to be altered to no longer be reskins of each other, then, what they meant by that, is that one would have an increased crit rating and fury duration, you would be completely correct in calling them out for misleading you, because the comparison they invoked is MASSIVELY disproportionate to the changes they actually instated

Pikolu

I will admit, I don't understand why you have a problem with it. They never promised a rework. A rework is literally taking old guillotine and making her into the current guillotine. A modern approach to creating a kit would be taking what is there and improving upon it.

Guillotines damage is heavily reliant on RNG and bleeds. Cool let's change that to be a degen to be more versatile, increase her crit rate and guarantee degens on the crits.

Hey her sp3 kills all ramp she has, so once she uses it, the fight is basically over for her. Cool let's change that so she only gets rid of half of the souls.

It is much better than Ms Marvel to OG Cap Marvel. That is a reskin.

Deathless guillotine is basically the buffed (not reworked) version of the old guillotine kit which IS something a lot of people wanted and asked for.

Suros_moon

My problem is as follows: By comparing the differences that deathless Guillotine has with the original to the differences from 2099 to the original you give the player base a rough threshold of how different these champs should shape out to be. It literally takes 12 more seconds to scroll through her description than it does her original counterpart. Now, even tempering your expectations reasonably, to use that comparison to describe the VALUE changes that this character represents is misleading.

I cant tell if you actually read what I wrote about captain marvel so Ill say it again: If kabam announced that they were going to make Ms Marvel and Captain Marvel No longer reskins of each other then pointed at Photon and Captain Marvel MCU saying “similar to how those two arent just reskins of each other” then rolled out the changes and it turned out that what they meant is that they gave Ms Marvel 3 bonus seconds on her fury and higher chance to proc it you would be completely in the right to call them out for deceptively comparing the magnitude of these changes to Photon and Captain Marvel MCU.

How on earth does this even approach the universe that Guillotine 2099 and Guillotine represent relative to one another? Seriously is it just because we are using champions that this is muddied? If I said, look at the sun and Saturn: Im gonna make something thats similar to how those two planetary bodies are not that close to each other. I then put a ring on Saturn. You're right in staying “its not where Saturn is exactly” but dead wrong in trying to justify claims that invoking the sun was a fair way to set expectations and thus imply that Im somehow in the wrong for not expecting something far off from what we received, ESPECIALLY when you had several chances to express exactly what this was with language they had literally specifically created for this type of change: “A tune up”. “A value change”. Not “like how guillotine 2099 is not a reskin of guillotine”

Crcrcrc

While I agree that she looks fun and interesting and I can't wait to get her, all the things you listed right there are literally changes in values from the old kit, aka a value tune up as the original comment was saying.

Suros_moon

Thank you, but even moreso, I wouldnt even be upset if Kabam had been honest. They had literal 10min sections dedicated to this champion on 3 occasions. How do you forget to mention that this is literally a series of value changes. If they just came put and said it all is well, but to be so bold as to drop 2099 in the same comparison as this makes the entire community out to be a bunch of idiots

Shock29

So, Deathless Guillotine is not a reskin of OG Guillotine. A reskin would imply that both champions carry the exact same abilities with the only differences coming through value changes in amounts, duration, or potency. You keep mentioning Ms. Marvel and OG CM which is a good example of this. However, this definition does not apply to Deathless Guillotine and the OG version.

Their abilities are very similar. In fact, for the most part, the abilities are straight from OG Guillotine. But, there are changes that make this more than a tuneup. For example, she now inflicts Degeneration instead of Bleed. She will always infect a Degeneration on Critical Hits. And she only consumes half of her Souls off the SP3 (rounded down). These changes come with tuned up versions of the original Guillotine abilities and some new base stats.

I know these changes are small but just because it's a rung above a reskin does not mean it automatically can be categorized as one. In my opinion, there is enough difference to warrant Deathless Guillotine being her own thing. If anything, your example does not fit because it's not purely value changes.

Suros_moon

Ive clarified a few times that it isn’t exactly the same so if you want to get hyper technical about it not being a reskin sure. My larger point is that this is literally the next closest thing. In fact, so little has changed that if you dont use the words “value change” then the next closest definition IS reskin. Kabam chose to market what BARELY crawls out of reskin territory as something which was similar to the differences between Guillotine 2099 and the OG.

Seriously which of those is a more disingenuous presentation: me calling this a reskin or kabam marketing the editing of 5 numbers as “this will be like how Guillotine 2099 is not a reskin of guillotine”. Why even bring her up knowing you were creating nothing anywhere NEAR the level of work that took. If 2099 and OG didnt share a character model you wouldnt even know they were based on the same character