How exactly is Herc bad for the game?

I admit that he's busted, but precisely how is his existence bad for the game?

1. Content

EQ is not difficult and is built around classes anyway
Story content has been easy for years
He's blacklisted and banned in war most of the time, and globals are making him less relevant
AQ is a slog so let us have him
He's not affecting Everest content like necropolis and carina objectives target specific classes and champions

So what content is being ruined because he exists? If he was nerfed would we see a reduction in difficulty that needs less revives? I don't see it.

2. Herc's effect on player skills

He's arguably made players less skilled, but we have defenders like photon, maestro, onslaught, and bullseye that players have to get around. If we nerf Herc, players will just move on to using the next busted champ, like Hulkling or somebody else.

3. Devs lives are much harder

How much harder are their jobs with him in the game? Are they not able to do things because he exists? What things can they not do?

Comments

Pseudouber

They knew what they we're doing when they created him. They tested him and released him and got us all physed. It is their failed for not doing more testing when released. Full stop.

Vanitelia

They knew what they we're doing when they created him. They tested him and released him and got us all physed. It is their failed for not doing more testing when released. Full stop.

You're not wrong, but he along with a couple of others, are the reason why we have a rebalancing program. The did a summoner-solid and didn't apply it to previously released champs which wasn't a great long term move for them. No denying that.

GinjabredMonsta

Anyone saying Herc is bad should go get Paragon+ without Herc on a new account with this new AI with no Herc lol.

Your massive Paragon/Valiant accounts took advantage of Herc now he’s too strong. Let new players also get the benefit of Herc as well.

False

Nightheart

And I say more that, Hercules is just not the best of Necropolis, because they created a node against him...

Not just that he's impractical to use in Necropolis I tried him and I got destroyed real hard. While the nodes May hinder him not to mention the die now mechanics the opponent's healthpool attack and the special nodes for each champions you face is not going to be a good time for him.

BigPoppaCBONE

They knew what they we're doing when they created him. They tested him and released him and got us all physed. It is their failed for not doing more testing when released. Full stop.
You're not wrong, but he along with a couple of others, are the reason why we have a rebalancing program. The did a summoner-solid and didn't apply it to previously released champs which wasn't a great long term move for them. No denying that.

Nothing is really stopping them from going back and applying whatever they want to whoever they want. If the decision makers conclude that the benefits outweigh the costs, they'll change it, no matter how old the champ is. The Rebalancing Program period is as ironclad an agreement as "We'll never raise your rates!" or "No fees!" or any other marketing that isn't subject to regulatory action.

GroundedWisdom

Aegon is not Herc. They're not the same beast. Aegon has a very specific design with a very specific use. He requires skill and ramp-up, and a significant amount of Resources to do it.
Herc is just a cheat-death code with huge Damage and Unblockable.

Mrt9810

I never get the health of the game argument. The health of the game is measured by players coming and playing and enjoying the game. I do not think Herc is killing peoples enjoyment in fact Id say he is one of the most enjoyable aspects to the game. I like using herc for big numbers more then revive spamming or having to read 30 pages of nodes. End of the day this is a game and is intended for people enjoyment and if herc brings that then he is only good for the health of the game.

ItsClobberinTime

Ægon can solo a few fights, but he can't solo the whole thing. Look up Herc solos EOP and see how many fights he can solo in total. Not to mention, Ægon needs a ton of ramp up and synergies, Herc doesn't need any of them, again I don't think you really understand how the game works, you're just saying things for the sake for saying them lol.

1199345

Brute-forcing your way through Necro doesn't take any skill...none...many resources, yes, but ZERO skill...most players just quit out to ramp Ægon up and go BRRRRRRRR

GroundedWisdom

Ægon can solo a few fights, but he can't solo the whole thing. Look up Herc solos EOP and see how many fights he can solo in total. Not to mention, Ægon needs a ton of ramp up and synergies, Herc doesn't need any of them, again I don't think you really understand how the game works, you're just saying things for the sake for saying them lol.

I tried using Shuri on my run, but ended up using Aegon for the whole length of it, save for Wiccan for GM, briefly. It still took me around 160 Revs on Path 1.
He's good, but he still takes skill to use, and you're paying for it if you're not the best of the best.

DNA3000

You guys are adorable. Get a room.
One of the best players in the game went through EoP.

Another best player in the game went through Necropolis item-less. We should probably nerf Shuri, Kate and Wong.

Nobody cares, at least in this context. MSD beating the game blindfolded means nothing to the other 99.999% of players of the game. Players soloing Necropolis fights with Wong are not a problem. The fact that there are players in the game that can run through Necropolis itemless with just the right team is not a bad thing. The developers expect that will happen eventually.

The problem isn't that Hercules can do most of the top tier challenge content out there. He can't. The problem is that Hercules can do 90% of everything else. The 90% of the game that 90% of the players can beat 90% of the time with Hercules is the problem.

DNA3000

I never get the health of the game argument. The health of the game is measured by players coming and playing and enjoying the game. I do not think Herc is killing peoples enjoyment in fact Id say he is one of the most enjoyable aspects to the game. I like using herc for big numbers more then revive spamming or having to read 30 pages of nodes. End of the day this is a game and is intended for people enjoyment and if herc brings that then he is only good for the health of the game.

That's because you haven't seen a game die because players got bored with it. Back when I was playing MMOs, the previous king of massively multiplayer online games, rarely did a game die because it was too difficult or too grindy. Far more often, it ran into trouble because it was too easy to get everything and do everything, and then the players moved on.

You could argue that was great for the players, they could just do everything and then move on to the next game and do everything and so on, but who's going to spend the money to make disposable businesses for players to rip through and then toss aside.

If your idea of enjoyment is do whatever you want, find a game that lets you do that. Most games as a service won't. They want to create sustained interest and target people who want that experience. If that's not you, then perhaps a different genre of game is more appropriate for you.

ItsClobberinTime

Ægon can solo a few fights, but he can't solo the whole thing. Look up Herc solos EOP and see how many fights he can solo in total. Not to mention, Ægon needs a ton of ramp up and synergies, Herc doesn't need any of them, again I don't think you really understand how the game works, you're just saying things for the sake for saying them lol.
I tried using Shuri on my run, but ended up using Aegon for the whole length of it, save for Wiccan for GM, briefly. It still took me around 160 Revs on Path 1.
He's good, but he still takes skill to use, and you're paying for it if you're not the best of the best.

He absolutely does, the ramp up phase mainly cause you have to maintain high combos to ramp up which in Necropolis can be tough on certain fights with certain nodes. You have to get to 999 combo, Herc on the other hand, intercept 12 times for big numbers and if you screw up you're also unkillable for 9 seconds (pauses indefinitely while throwing basic attacks which are easy to land cause you're permanently unblockable until immortality runs out). It is absolutely wild to me that some people are actually comparing Herc and Ægon and they're being serious about it lol it's almost as if they weren't here when EOP dropped. They should go try to do a solo EOP run with Ægon and then a solo run with Herc, the difference will not only be obvious but absolutely hilarious. They are not on equal footing in terms of damage, utility or survivability.

Also their argument seems to be "but Ægon can solo this"... So can Kate and Shuri, a lot of champs can solo different stuff that alone doesn't mean they're op. The big difference is Herc's kit is absolutely busted, the other kits are not and it's not even close.

1199345

The REAL problem with Herc is that he levels the playing field for the 90% of players who don't have the skill, the time, or the unlimited resources to play the game like the top 10% do...

He levels a playing field chocked full of increasingly difficult defenders (with incredibly questionable AI) on increasingly difficult nodes that require hyper-specific counters that force players to use an ever-increasing number of resources...ALL-THE-WHILE having the means to aquire said resources nerfed, completely taken away, or otherwise funnled into a forced unit or $$$ spending spree just to clear a few paths.

Look. I use Herc and I clear content with him...but I do it so I can move onto other content WITHIN THE GAME. He's incredibly efficient where I can use him, but he's absolutely USELESS in content that I can't (much like all the other champs in the game), which forces me to seek other alternatives. He certainly can't take on everything, and I still use revives and health potions while using him in difficult content...but overall he gives us common folk a fighting chance at actually enjoying this game, when we otherwise wouldn't have the skill, the time, or the unlimited resources to do so.

Kabam Miike

Alright everybody, we're gonna close this thread down because it's just spiraling.

Hercules is an overpowered Champion, but he is not alone. While he's not as bad as somebody like Quake, he significantly limits the space in which other Champions can operate, and creates headaches for our Designers and drives up the difficulty and complexity of content for everybody else.

Many of our player-facing headaches exist because of overpowered Champions. RPG counters and fight complexity wouldn't need to be as high as it is, in as many fights as it is, if we had Attacking Champs that didn't cover as many bases as they do. Hercules is the prime example of an overpowered Champion, but he is not alone.

No, this is not a case of "should have tested before he was released", because that argument doesn't hold water in a game that is evolving as quickly as this one is, with new content introduced every month, including challenges and new mechanics that couldn't have been known when he was being made.

If you'd all like, I can work with the team on a more in depth study of why Champions like that are not good for the long term health of the game, but it will take some time and I can't ask the team to prioritize that over their regular workloads.