**WE ARE NO LONGER Temporarily Reverting Tier 1 War Ban System**

After further discussion, the game team has made the decision not make adjustements to the ban system.
The previously proposed fix would have resolved the issue for Summoners who are on the cusp of T1/T2 play, and negatively impacted Alliances more securely in T1. Instead, we recommend that cusp Alliances switch to Manual Placement to your members to place the allotted 5 Ban Champions limit there.

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Which Node Makes Abs Man Immune to Power Burn?

DeaconDeacon Posts: 4,140 ★★★★★
Just curious .. I keep reading them and can't seem to understand it. I know they aren't considering power burning of POWER a damage over time or passive damage type are they?

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    CRUHCRUH Posts: 14
    Power burn does deal damage based on the power lost, hence it being burn and not power drain. Not fair, but understandable
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    CoMinowCoMinow Posts: 300
    CRUH said:

    Power burn does deal damage based on the power lost, hence it being burn and not power drain. Not fair, but understandable

    He does damage based on the power burned!
    Not the other way around. The damage comes after the power is lost. Either Kabam is illiterate, it’s bugged or they intended it to mislead and be deceptive.
    Either way a bunch of people gonna pay for their problem before it gets fixed. Yay for increased revenue from faulty products.
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    ReignkingTWReignkingTW Posts: 2,619 ★★★★★
    CRUH said:

    Power burn does deal damage based on the power lost, hence it being burn and not power drain. Not fair, but understandable

    That can't be right.
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    DeaconDeacon Posts: 4,140 ★★★★★

    CRUH said:

    Power burn does deal damage based on the power lost, hence it being burn and not power drain. Not fair, but understandable

    That can't be right.
    Nope it's not. But it's what the developers do when they just can't make a difficult fight difficult without any poop.
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    DeaconDeacon Posts: 4,140 ★★★★★
    victor158 said:

    Deacon said:

    Just curious .. I keep reading them and can't seem to understand it. I know they aren't considering power burning of POWER a damage over time or passive damage type are they?

    Power burn technically is a DOT effect and since abs is immune to it you don't take any of his power. While it's kinda ridiculous think of DOT effects as any red damage. Doom can steal his power cause that's not a burn.
    I already bit on that part of it. But considering the fact that the "direct" damage is a secondary effect AFTER the power is taken, my initial statement still stands .... fine take the damage but the whole rule of what happens first poop that they've often dished out with various other nodes, I don't see why that rule somehow doesn't apply here.

    The power taken is not a result of the damage done ... it's the opposite. The damage done is a result of the power taken. So then .. yeah .. but I get it ... like I said .. poop.
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    victor158victor158 Posts: 83
    edited February 8
    Deacon said:

    victor158 said:

    Deacon said:

    Just curious .. I keep reading them and can't seem to understand it. I know they aren't considering power burning of POWER a damage over time or passive damage type are they?

    Power burn technically is a DOT effect and since abs is immune to it you don't take any of his power. While it's kinda ridiculous think of DOT effects as any red damage. Doom can steal his power cause that's not a burn.
    I already bit on that part of it. But considering the fact that the "direct" damage is a secondary effect AFTER the power is taken, my initial statement still stands .... fine take the damage but the whole rule of what happens first poop that they've often dished out with various other nodes, I don't see why that rule somehow doesn't apply here.

    The power taken is not a result of the damage done ... it's the opposite. The damage done is a result of the power taken. So then .. yeah .. but I get it ... like I said .. poop.
    the game seems to consider the burning of power a passive damage effect in of itself, cant say i like it but thats just how its coded, if ur not convinced look at what peni parker does when she puts a power burn debuff, its a constant tick of a tiny amount of damage, vision does the same but just on one hit, and thats why abs is immune to it. the damage that comes after isnt the issue im guessing. again i dont like the logic and the node makes this fight must more restrictive than it needs to be but i cant control that

    Edit: just tested peni, the power burn from her sp1 does like 100 a tick but it IS DOING DAMAGE, which means the abs is immune to it
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    Power burn is sadly considered a DoT, so sadly, this is working as intended
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    bpunk88bpunk88 Posts: 184 ★★★
    edited February 9
    Would be nice if we could get an official response from the Kabam team on this subject. It's causing confusion and seems inconsistent with descriptions.

    Taking Vision as a example: special abilities state they "Burn X power and inflict Direct Damage"

    1) Are these separate effects or a singular one?
    2) Is "power burn" considered a DOT effect? Are power drain or power steal too?
    3) is Direct Damage considered a passive damage effect or DOT?

    It all seems very convenient that these unofficial explanations have been popping up, would be nice to have an official statement.
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    PikoluPikolu Posts: 6,922 Guardian
    bpunk88 said:

    Would be nice if we could get an official response from the Kabam team on this subject. It's causing confusion and seems inconsistent with descriptions.

    Taking Vision as a example: special abilities state they "Burn X power and inflict Direct Damage"

    1) Are these separate effects or a singular one?
    2) Is "power burn" considered a DOT effect? Are power drain or power steal too?
    3) is Direct Damage considered a passive damage effect or DOT?

    It all seems very convenient that these unofficial explanations have been popping up, would be nice to have an official statement.

    Powerburn is a DoT because of Peni Parker. She has a DoT that does powerburn damage, and to keep consistency (because having multiple types of powerburn could cause issues in the future) they decided to just have all powerburn be categorized as a DoT. So if you want to blame anyone, blame peni
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    Jack2634Jack2634 Posts: 812 ★★★
    Deacon said:

    Just curious .. I keep reading them and can't seem to understand it. I know they aren't considering power burning of POWER a damage over time or passive damage type are they?

    i guess power burn and some sources of damage like herc's physical burst,... are coded by kabam like a DoT with duration of 0 secs (instant damage) so these kinds of damage will still be listed by them to be DoT damage. Tbh, if my guess was correct, i would love to see kabam fix it in the future
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    bpunk88bpunk88 Posts: 184 ★★★
    Pikolu said:


    Powerburn is a DoT because of Peni Parker. She has a DoT that does powerburn damage, and to keep consistency (because having multiple types of powerburn could cause issues in the future) they decided to just have all powerburn be categorized as a DoT. So if you want to blame anyone, blame peni

    While I appreciate and trust your explanation, it would be nice to get an official statement on this subject (eg: orange text from. kabam acct).

    Previously it hasn't been an issue champs immune to power burn understandably wouldn't receive damage. However the new node introduced in Winter of Woe begs to question if this is correct or not.

    The description in Vision 's abilities states:
    "Burns up to X max power AND inflicts direct damage"

    This sounds like they are two separate effects, 1) removal of power, 2) damage dealt based on power removed.

    Peni Parker's Special 3 inflicts a Power Burn debuff, which already seems like a different power burn.

    Perhaps there needs to be a larger discussion around the existing and planned effects within the game but it gets confusing from a player perspective if these interactions are bugs or intentional.
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    CyborgNinja135CyborgNinja135 Posts: 1,117 ★★★★
    bpunk88 said:

    Pikolu said:


    Powerburn is a DoT because of Peni Parker. She has a DoT that does powerburn damage, and to keep consistency (because having multiple types of powerburn could cause issues in the future) they decided to just have all powerburn be categorized as a DoT. So if you want to blame anyone, blame peni

    While I appreciate and trust your explanation, it would be nice to get an official statement on this subject (eg: orange text from. kabam acct).

    Previously it hasn't been an issue champs immune to power burn understandably wouldn't receive damage. However the new node introduced in Winter of Woe begs to question if this is correct or not.

    The description in Vision 's abilities states:
    "Burns up to X max power AND inflicts direct damage"
    According to both in-game descriptions "Burns up to 100% of the target's max Power and inflict Direct Damage proportionate to the power lost". If the power burn fails then there is no direct damage to inflict.
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    xLunatiXxxLunatiXx Posts: 1,273 ★★★★★
    Pikolu said:

    bpunk88 said:

    Would be nice if we could get an official response from the Kabam team on this subject. It's causing confusion and seems inconsistent with descriptions.

    Taking Vision as a example: special abilities state they "Burn X power and inflict Direct Damage"

    1) Are these separate effects or a singular one?
    2) Is "power burn" considered a DOT effect? Are power drain or power steal too?
    3) is Direct Damage considered a passive damage effect or DOT?

    It all seems very convenient that these unofficial explanations have been popping up, would be nice to have an official statement.

    Powerburn is a DoT because of Peni Parker. She has a DoT that does powerburn damage, and to keep consistency (because having multiple types of powerburn could cause issues in the future) they decided to just have all powerburn be categorized as a DoT. So if you want to blame anyone, blame peni
    Power burn existed before peni, are you saying they changed it after her release ? Or maybe it's not a peni issue but another bug?
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    PikoluPikolu Posts: 6,922 Guardian
    xLunatiXx said:

    Pikolu said:

    bpunk88 said:

    Would be nice if we could get an official response from the Kabam team on this subject. It's causing confusion and seems inconsistent with descriptions.

    Taking Vision as a example: special abilities state they "Burn X power and inflict Direct Damage"

    1) Are these separate effects or a singular one?
    2) Is "power burn" considered a DOT effect? Are power drain or power steal too?
    3) is Direct Damage considered a passive damage effect or DOT?

    It all seems very convenient that these unofficial explanations have been popping up, would be nice to have an official statement.

    Powerburn is a DoT because of Peni Parker. She has a DoT that does powerburn damage, and to keep consistency (because having multiple types of powerburn could cause issues in the future) they decided to just have all powerburn be categorized as a DoT. So if you want to blame anyone, blame peni
    Power burn existed before peni, are you saying they changed it after her release ? Or maybe it's not a peni issue but another bug?
    Definitely isn't a bug, it is 100% intentional that right here, right now power burn is a DoT. If it was a DoT before Peni, I don't know.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,945 Guardian
    bpunk88 said:

    Pikolu said:


    Powerburn is a DoT because of Peni Parker. She has a DoT that does powerburn damage, and to keep consistency (because having multiple types of powerburn could cause issues in the future) they decided to just have all powerburn be categorized as a DoT. So if you want to blame anyone, blame peni

    While I appreciate and trust your explanation, it would be nice to get an official statement on this subject (eg: orange text from. kabam acct).

    Previously it hasn't been an issue champs immune to power burn understandably wouldn't receive damage. However the new node introduced in Winter of Woe begs to question if this is correct or not.

    The description in Vision 's abilities states:
    "Burns up to X max power AND inflicts direct damage"

    This sounds like they are two separate effects, 1) removal of power, 2) damage dealt based on power removed.

    Peni Parker's Special 3 inflicts a Power Burn debuff, which already seems like a different power burn.

    Perhaps there needs to be a larger discussion around the existing and planned effects within the game but it gets confusing from a player perspective if these interactions are bugs or intentional.
    This was brought to the devs attention in the CCP discord, and Pikolu is summarizing the net result of that discussion.

    The issue here is a deep implementation issue that would probably not be appropriate to discuss in too much detail (in part because I don’t know all the details with enough certainty), but the simple truth is the English (or other conventional language) descriptions of what the game does are simplifications. No English description of any effect in the game is going to be 100% accurate and precise, because everything that happens in this game is actually a set of complex interactions between game engine primitives. And nowhere is this more true than in the case of what I’ll call “typed interactions.”

    Once upon a time, there was no way to actually make a champ immune to, say, ability accuracy modification. When the game said “immune to ability accuracy modification” that was a lie. The way the devs implemented that lie was to find all the effects that affected ability accuracy and make the champ immune to them individually. Which works until you add a new one. And then every single AAR immunity has to be reviewed by hand and edited, or “immune to AA modification” no longer is.

    In this case the reverse appears to be the case. Power burn does not seem to work the way we would expect a damage over time effect to work. It doesn’t directly deal damage, and it doesn’t apply its effects over time. However, to make Peni’s power burn over time effect work, power burn was tagged to be a DoT. I don’t know when that happened, but that seems to be the case.

    Whether this is “intentional” or not doesn’t always have an easy yes or no answer. They obviously intended to do this, because it was done to make something work. They knew this would have side effects, and deliberately did it thinking the trade off was worth it. But whether they wanted this specific Wow interaction to occur is a separate question for the devs to decide, and they may still be deciding. Everything in the implementation of this game involves trade offs. What appears to be the case is this is intentional for now, subject to later review.

    That’s probably not the answer you are looking for, but it might be the best one that exists. The devs cannot always foresee all of the downstream effects of an implementation decision into the future. Sometimes they intend for something to happen, but don’t find all of the consequences of that decision to be palatable, and then make revisions. But they have to live with the decisions they make, as we do. So sometimes the answer is, however unsatisfactory it may be, intended today, but might change tomorrow.
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    bpunk88bpunk88 Posts: 184 ★★★
    If this has already been discussed, it shouldn't be too much of an ask to get an official statement.

    While I understand there there are a lot of closed-door discussions between Kabam and CCP, if something like this is identified, it would be nice to be forthcoming about it. Disclosing interactions that may be unexpected upfront helps with transparency.

    Power Burn has been an in-game effect for a long time. It would make sense that the game has evolved past what that original effect was intended to be. Perhaps it's time for a larger discussion around it's implementation and impact on future content.

    Originally power burn was simple, remove power and deal damage. Now we have power burn immune champs, no power burn = no damage.

    But WOW week 1 is our first encounter with passive damage immunity.
    As power burn is primarily a used as a method of power control, one could expect this interaction to remove power (similar to power drain) but deal no additional damage as the defender is immune to it.. but that's not happening.

    That's where the confusion lies.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,945 Guardian
    bpunk88 said:

    If this has already been discussed, it shouldn't be too much of an ask to get an official statement.



    Official dev pronouncements are not a simple matter of just saying things. They get quoted, misquoted, and highly extrapolated. Those things get vetted, and even when they are, there are always consequences and fall out. Official statements take time over and above the time it takes to make the announcement, because they tend to prompt discussion. Sometimes, things are the way they are, and that’s all there is time for until time gets allocated to review and address.

    To put it bluntly, some players just want a statement and will accept it. But many others want statements so that they can argue with them. That’s the reality of the devs directly entering a technical discussion before it’s been fully addressed or resolved. Think about literally every Kabam statement about any ongoing issue.

    Sometimes, people like Pikolu and me try to be the plausible deniable unofficial conduit for information, because no one has to take the heat for anything I say except me. But that has to walk a fine line between trying to provide information to the community without placing the devs on the hook for what I say before they are prepared to take official actions.
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    ReignkingTWReignkingTW Posts: 2,619 ★★★★★
    bpunk88 said:

    If this has already been discussed, it shouldn't be too much of an ask to get an official statement.

    TBF they have more important things to do. Take what DNA and Pikolu said.
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    bpunk88bpunk88 Posts: 184 ★★★
    To clarify, I was just hoping for a "we've passed it on to the team" or "looking into it" note but 🤷‍♂️.

    The info Pikolu and DNA provided is insightful and helps explain the current state. Whether all power burn should be DOT effects or not is ultimately Kabams call. But hopefully the concerns voiced by others will be considered.

    Side note: I forgot Guardians were added to the forums a while back. They really should give you guys some flair in the mobile view
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    VaniteliaVanitelia Posts: 353 ★★★
    The explanations are great. I understand the information, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the game is only as complex as it is because they made it this way. Why make a champ's abilities work in such a way that it impacts how other champs' abilities function?

    Look at the issues NF has, the perfect parry in Shang Chi's kit that messed with normal parry windows...you start tweaking parameters, and it causes chaos elsewhere. Why release a fight where the node combinations would interact poorly with the tagged champs that were supposed to be used to complete the objectives?

    Say what you want, there has to be some analysis of cause vs effect before putting content out like this. You don't put a jet engine into a hatchback. Sure, it would be cool to look at, but the car can't handle it. Same with nodes. Abs man was tuned down after he came out because his regen was too powerful when re-entering a fight. Fast forward to now, and it's having the same effect when trying to re-enter the fight. That's okay, we'll back out instead of using a revive, but only a handful of times before you have to use resources anyway.
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    bpunk88 said:

    To clarify, I was just hoping for a "we've passed it on to the team" or "looking into it" note but 🤷‍♂️.

    The info Pikolu and DNA provided is insightful and helps explain the current state. Whether all power burn should be DOT effects or not is ultimately Kabams call. But hopefully the concerns voiced by others will be considered.

    Side note: I forgot Guardians were added to the forums a while back. They really should give you guys some flair in the mobile view

    Yeah, some mobile flair for use would be dope. How else am I suppose to peacock around?!
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    PikoluPikolu Posts: 6,922 Guardian
    Vanitelia said:

    the perfect parry in Shang Chi's kit that messed with normal parry windows

    Perfect blocks have always been a thing in mcoc. That shouldn't have needed new tech added for just shang chi
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    ReignkingTWReignkingTW Posts: 2,619 ★★★★★
    Wow I never noticed that flair isn't on mobile.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,945 Guardian
    Vanitelia said:

    The explanations are great. I understand the information, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the game is only as complex as it is because they made it this way. Why make a champ's abilities work in such a way that it impacts how other champs' abilities function?

    Because there’s no other way.

    Sure, for any one particular case, like say this one, with unlimited foresight there’s always a way to avoid the issue if the game was designed in a particular way. But in the general case, there’s no way to design champs in such a way that their design does not affect any other champ, because champs are built from mechanical parts. The parts interact with each other according to how they were originally implemented, irrespective of how you want the parts to behave for a particular champ.

    You could choose to make every single champ with unique abilities that do not reuse any other champs abilities to guarantee that no champ’s design would ever interact with any other champ except in the precise way they were designed. But the only way to do that is to do exactly that. X23 would have X23’s bleed, while Nick Fury would have Nick Fury’s bleed. Every bleed in the game would be unique and custom created, and the players would never be able to extrapolate one champs abilities to another. Just because it worked a certain way for one champ, wouldn’t guarantee it would work in the same way for another champ.

    Unfortunately there is only one kind of power burn, so the power burn that is a DoT to make
    Peni work is also the power burn that Vision has that gets blocked by DoT immunity. Personally, I don’t like it, and I suspect it isn’t universally liked by all the MCOC designers either, but they have to try to pick a reasonable compromise between two bad extremes: everything works exactly the same way, even when that is nonsensical, or everything works in a unique specified way even if that means no one will ever understand how anything works ever again.

    I’m not saying the way it works is the right way. It isn’t the way I would have decided. I’m simply saying that it is understandable that sometimes these things err on the side of making things more mechanically consistent, even if that consistency exposes a different kind of descriptive inconsistency. The devs have to make these kinds of choices every day, and it isn’t always obvious which one will end up being the optimal one in the long run. These are not easy decisions.

    In a perfect world, a lot of these funky interactions would go away. But even in a perfect world, they wouldn’t all go away.
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