Meatballs Make Money! Revenue per completed end game fight. A question for Kabam, preferably Crashed
Childofkrakoa
Member Posts: 15 ★
This morning I'm taking the time that I could've had to further attempt the Sinister Six objective in winter of Woe to give sincere feedback about some statements that have been made on live streams and forum posts by Kabam employees. (BTW, big fan of all of you!)
When Woe was announced we were told that the game "needs" certain things to be healthy. As a business owner, with employees, and customers to look after myself. I completely understand that. We were also told that we shouldn't expect to receive end game rewards for doing nothing. Also, totally understandable. We were told to expect five energy per step on a one fight quest. When there were two steps I think many of us just sort of laughed out loud. Jax is a clever wordsmith, you got us, no problem, ten energy it is.
Personally, with that sort of energy spend, I'm going to wait and see how KT, Lags, MSD, etc, approach the content. I'll study up and fight the fight in week two.
Before I go any further I'd like to share some details about my account. I'm a Valiant player who completed one path of Necro and purchased deals to earn the title right away. I then explored Necro by the end of the year. I love this game and it has become a big portion of my "entertainment budget". I'm very much a "free to pay" player and spend thousands of dollars on this game annually. To be honest, I don't really spend to get ahead. I spend because it enhances my fun in the game. I'm in a chill alliance and don't push very hard in PVP game modes. Except for Banquet, I was rank 258 there.
This brings us back to week two of winter of woe and my attempts. Personally, I have good options for all of the objectives.
7* R2 Hulk for Gamma
7* R1 Sandman for Sinister Six
7* R2 Guillotine 2099 for Robots
In addition to having good counters I have 20,000+ units and I've also been very diligent about making sure I have an overflowing stash of consumables. Additionally, I purchased 90% of the Valentines offers for the romance consumables.
I really can't express my level of excitement going into this year of challenges starting with Woe. I had honestly never been more excited about the game and so many of the things that are coming. Is it going to be difficult? Of course, but that is part of the rewarding process that I love about this game.
However, after starting to work on the gamma objective this just felt different. Seven full energy refills gone in less than 30 minutes. Now, I already know what many of you will reply here with "SKILL ISSUE". Guess what? You're right! It is a skill issue. I'm not good enough to solo that fight and will not be working towards it. But I would like to work on my "SKILL ISSUE" to get it down with less than my whole stash.....
But that brings us back to the energy cost doesn't it? We all approach this game differently. I can appreciate how hard it is to design around that. Some people will practice all day to get a solo and without the energy cost you didn't receive any form of "revenue" from that player. Other than their time. Which we've also been told does not factor into the MCOC economy. I might have to disagree with this sentiment because I just got the newest 6* Champion out of the arena for nothing but my time.... It feels like of all things MCOC should be like Ikea meatballs. It doesn't make you money BUT it makes you money.
So ultimately, it feels like Kabam wants a certain amount of guaranteed "revenue" from every player when they complete or maybe even attempt an "end game" fight in this event.
Is that fair? Absolutely!
You can do whatever you want. But, understand that these sorts of decisions change how I, and I'm sure many FEEL about the game. The fight itself is punishing, the energy cost is punishing, the farming needed to complete the content is punishing. By the time I was finally ready to attempt the final objectives I realized something. I'm not having any fun and I don't care anymore.
In closing, all content is optional and I get that. For the first time in a long time I think this content will be optional for me. My question would be, how long do you think it takes for all of the Odin's vaults, black panthers treasures, early access bundles, daily cards, daily specials, summoner sigils and so much more to also become optional for me if this is how I'm feeling about the content? It's a sincere question. Is creating hundreds of dollars in energy revenue worth losing thousands of dollars in other revenue?
It really doesn't feel good to players when they hear they aren't skilled enough take on certain content. When you then charge them a premium to work on those skills it feels as bad as I've felt doing anything in this game, and unfortunately I've broken many things over this game. You really outdid yourself here.
P.S. I don't even want to think about how this impacts low spenders or god forbid free to play.
When Woe was announced we were told that the game "needs" certain things to be healthy. As a business owner, with employees, and customers to look after myself. I completely understand that. We were also told that we shouldn't expect to receive end game rewards for doing nothing. Also, totally understandable. We were told to expect five energy per step on a one fight quest. When there were two steps I think many of us just sort of laughed out loud. Jax is a clever wordsmith, you got us, no problem, ten energy it is.
Personally, with that sort of energy spend, I'm going to wait and see how KT, Lags, MSD, etc, approach the content. I'll study up and fight the fight in week two.
Before I go any further I'd like to share some details about my account. I'm a Valiant player who completed one path of Necro and purchased deals to earn the title right away. I then explored Necro by the end of the year. I love this game and it has become a big portion of my "entertainment budget". I'm very much a "free to pay" player and spend thousands of dollars on this game annually. To be honest, I don't really spend to get ahead. I spend because it enhances my fun in the game. I'm in a chill alliance and don't push very hard in PVP game modes. Except for Banquet, I was rank 258 there.
This brings us back to week two of winter of woe and my attempts. Personally, I have good options for all of the objectives.
7* R2 Hulk for Gamma
7* R1 Sandman for Sinister Six
7* R2 Guillotine 2099 for Robots
In addition to having good counters I have 20,000+ units and I've also been very diligent about making sure I have an overflowing stash of consumables. Additionally, I purchased 90% of the Valentines offers for the romance consumables.
I really can't express my level of excitement going into this year of challenges starting with Woe. I had honestly never been more excited about the game and so many of the things that are coming. Is it going to be difficult? Of course, but that is part of the rewarding process that I love about this game.
However, after starting to work on the gamma objective this just felt different. Seven full energy refills gone in less than 30 minutes. Now, I already know what many of you will reply here with "SKILL ISSUE". Guess what? You're right! It is a skill issue. I'm not good enough to solo that fight and will not be working towards it. But I would like to work on my "SKILL ISSUE" to get it down with less than my whole stash.....
But that brings us back to the energy cost doesn't it? We all approach this game differently. I can appreciate how hard it is to design around that. Some people will practice all day to get a solo and without the energy cost you didn't receive any form of "revenue" from that player. Other than their time. Which we've also been told does not factor into the MCOC economy. I might have to disagree with this sentiment because I just got the newest 6* Champion out of the arena for nothing but my time.... It feels like of all things MCOC should be like Ikea meatballs. It doesn't make you money BUT it makes you money.
So ultimately, it feels like Kabam wants a certain amount of guaranteed "revenue" from every player when they complete or maybe even attempt an "end game" fight in this event.
Is that fair? Absolutely!
You can do whatever you want. But, understand that these sorts of decisions change how I, and I'm sure many FEEL about the game. The fight itself is punishing, the energy cost is punishing, the farming needed to complete the content is punishing. By the time I was finally ready to attempt the final objectives I realized something. I'm not having any fun and I don't care anymore.
In closing, all content is optional and I get that. For the first time in a long time I think this content will be optional for me. My question would be, how long do you think it takes for all of the Odin's vaults, black panthers treasures, early access bundles, daily cards, daily specials, summoner sigils and so much more to also become optional for me if this is how I'm feeling about the content? It's a sincere question. Is creating hundreds of dollars in energy revenue worth losing thousands of dollars in other revenue?
It really doesn't feel good to players when they hear they aren't skilled enough take on certain content. When you then charge them a premium to work on those skills it feels as bad as I've felt doing anything in this game, and unfortunately I've broken many things over this game. You really outdid yourself here.
P.S. I don't even want to think about how this impacts low spenders or god forbid free to play.
42
Comments
I had plenty but didn't want to waste them on WoW, so I did the 7 tries, and then stopped. After a few days of doing this, I went ahead and committed to a run. Got the solo with Sandman and then repeated the process with Hulk. I didn't get the solo, but did get him down with 1 revive and some potions. I didn't bother boosting for the practice runs, but did pop 20% for the committed runs.
Long story short, they energy requirement wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have a ton of other content to do. At the time, we had EQ, SQ, and Lunar New Year all requiring energy to go along with WoW. That's a lot. Despite it all, if we pace ourselves, it is possible to get our practice in, complete content, and get everything done without having to dip into the refill stash or purchase more.
But in all fairness that Abs man fight was just total cash grab, bs, released before tested, like it was harder than Necro fights for god's sake. He just use special and boom from 29% to 80% 😃 All my progress just poofed. Thanks Kabam.
Another thing, if Whales like Childo are heaving this much trouble clearing that fight despite him having abundance of units and revives plus 7* versions then just imagine the kind of abuse avg players with avg wallet went through.
Ironically, VIV is my favorite Champion in the game and I would've loved to mess around with her in the fight but once I didn't need the objective I couldn't justify the energy.
" I'm a p2w player and spend a lotta money in this game, Despite that, this challenge is unfair for me even with my enormous roster and item/unit stash. So this might extremely affect ftp players. This Wow might drive p2w players to stop spending on Mcoc"
And Honestly Op, you're right. Let's hope this fight is not the trend for upcoming wow fights. If this is how all fights will end up in difficulty, atleast kabam should change the energy cost.
For reference, I started playing back in 2016, bought two 5$ bundles after a year or two, and decided that I wanted to challenge myself to make the most of playing without paying (and haven't bought anything since like 2018). I'm about to start my 5th path of Necro because I wanted to get Valiant before 8.4 dropped, but I didn't have the free time to farm revives like it seems many did, and have had to take it a little "slow".
The thoughts I had while pushing through Absorbing Man with my 6* R3 SheHulk were, not in this order:
TLDR: I have one nerve left, and it's name is Woe. Winter used to be my favorite season.....
I have studied gamification theory, and it feels like Kabam is stuck on the FOMO stage ("you gotta do WoW/buy this rank up deal/grind BGs/etc., or else you'll miss out on what other players are getting"). That's pretty much the only driver in this game right now. Again, boring.
It's a beautifully designed game, and impressive from a software design POV even with the bugs. But it feels driven by Kabam's economics to the point where, for me at least, I dread having to log in.
I imagine for every person who actually does truly stop paying or quit for good, there are many more who continue trudging along because we are plugged in and can never escape.
But yeah, personally I found the fight enjoyable due to the amount of concentration and how difficult it was, and how skill restrictive it was aswell, since you have to intercept, punish properly, dont block, be careful with the unstoppable buffs and your own debuffs so he cannot regen or go unstop; BUT, this is not worth the rewards, I mean, this could be easily a Valiant Special Side Quest Boss fight that rewards half a 7*, or maybe a whole one, some T6CCats, a 6* Relic, etc, only by beating this guy with the required champs.
But for a single fight of this whole yearly event that only gives you 3 points of the whole bunch of points you need for the decent rewards? Nuh-uh
I hope the next fights are equivalent to the rewards, not this excessive overtune of an already hard defender.
P.S.: Really enjoyed both @Squirrelguy and @Childofkrakoa posts
If I decide to grind Champs out of arenas rather than getting the bundle because I'm not spending time on WoW.... Again, not a threat. I'm going to play the game, but if I change the way in which I do so that also changes the demands on my account. If I don't spend time on WoW, I'm probably not going to need those weekly revive refresh web store bundles that I purchased on four of my necro runs and other occasions. In no way am I threatening to not be a customer but I just know how I'll adjust if things feel bad like this. I want to chase the bleeding edge but I need to not feel like I'd rather clock back into work than fight this Abs Man. This needs to be fun on some level and the energy cost destroys that for me.
Most people seem to assume that the free to play players (gasp) are a tiny minority of people the game relegates to some ghetto. But they are almost all the players, and they exist at essentially every progression tier.
The fundamental operating principle of all massively multiplayer microtransaction supported free to play games is, more or less, let everyone play for free, and they will sort themselves into a hierarchy based on game play. And then let those willing to spend climb to the higher rungs they wish they could get to and they see their friends reach.
No content is designed to force players to spend. If they wanted to force players to spend, they would charge a subscription fee. Every piece of content, from Woe to Necropolis to Gauntlet to Proven monthly EQ sorts the players into those that can do it, those that cannot do it at all, and those who could do it with a little help. Five percent of those players will spend to buy themselves some help.
Every piece of content makes someone feel bad for not being able to do it. Proven EQ causes more people to quit than Winter of Woe, simply because multiple orders of magnitude of people encounter Proven. Something to think about. The difficulty of the 5.2 Collector almost certainly causes more pain than Winter of Woe Abs Man simply by virtue of pure numbers. How would you address that? Is that something you would address?
Now, MCOC could be exceptional. And there are other studies that show other conversion rates for other games. I've never been told exactly precisely what the MCOC conversion rate actually is, and I wouldn't be able to say if I was. However, I was once told that MCOC was not a wild outlier relative to the industry, and I don't think that's especially sensitive information. Maybe they only convert 2% of their players into spenders. Maybe they are really great at it and convert 15% of their players into spenders. 5% is a reasonable proxy for the number, because no number anywhere near it would change the discussion much.
Here's MCOC(Kabam) in Netmarble's portfolio for 2023 q4:
Here's the current slate of Kabam offerings:
MCOC revenue needs to offset as much as it can for Kabam to justify these offerings (and it's existence in a way) which, as seen above, don't crack the top 10 but cost big bucks to develop.
See the trio below?
The highlighted company, SpinX, accounts for 3 of the top 10 and a combined 4% more than MCOC. The kicker? They cost a fraction of what Kabam spends on MCOC, and since there's no Disney cut, they're way more profitable for Netmarble.
So, how much revenue does Kabam need from every player in MCOC? Twice as much as it's currently getting, from Netmarble's perspective.
When we started on the designs of this new content that we internally call Seasonal Everest Content, we took a look back at past designs of end-game content to see what was working and what was not. When it came to the meta systems of WoW, we identified two major things we wanted to change.
The first was that the Eternity of Pain events used peak milestones for rewards, which players really didn’t like because it required months of commitment before players saw any benefit. Even when the final objectives were completed, players had to wait for the event to end before the payout. There is a very good reason EoP used peak milestones, and that’s because many of the chase components of those rewards like Nexus Crystals and Abyss Nexus Crystals were indivisible. We couldn’t give out small amounts along the way, and so had we gone with regular milestones they would have felt really insufficient at the lower rungs as so much of the value would have necessarily been in the top few milestones. We also wanted to “upgrade” crystals as players progressed through the milestones, something that wasn’t really possible with regular milestones. We actually tried a draft of rewards with regular milestones you collect along the way and just couldn’t get it to work.
Thankfully with WoW, all of the chase resources in the game right now are easily divisible. We can award Titan Shards, 7-Star Shards and 7-Star Sig Stones across a number of milestones that build up to the top. So we were able to improve the player experience by providing regular rewards for regular progress.
The second thing we identified that we didn’t think was working was the completely riskless entry to the quests. Players could enter the quests hundreds of times, get knocked out hundreds of times, and there was zero jeopardy involved. To us this was very strange. It should be consequential when a champion gets knocked out in end game content, and in EOP it just wasn’t a lot of the time.
Given we wanted to change this aspect of the quests, we talked about a few options. The first we toyed with was entry limits, as I believe Kevin mentioned on stream. We decided that would swing too far in the other direction, completely preventing players from practicing or trying to go for the solo if that was how they preferred to play the content. So we settled on adding a substantial energy cost to the quests. It had to be something meaningful enough that getting knocked out would have consequences, but not so costly that players couldn’t retry the quest many times should they so choose to use their energy in that way.
I know some won’t believe me when I say this, but nobody on the game team sat down and did a calculation that we thought we could make X dollars by charging Y energy. We never even had a conversation about that. It was about adding risk to late game quests which we believe is a fundamental component of challenging content. Additionally, trying to predict the exact impact of the energy cost in terms of any measurable indicator (engagement, player time, player sessions or anything else) would have been a waste of time, as the late game energy economy has been so broken for so long that there is no real way to predict how this will impact the game. That’s why we have to wait for data to see how it impacts the game.
Finally, on a personal note, this is one of those times when as a designer my job was to act against my own personal play patterns. I am one of those players who will do these fights dozens or hundreds of times trying to get them perfect. I can say that personally, that felt bad for the Absorbing Man fight, in which I probably spent 15+ energy refills experimenting and perfecting my strategies. And it felt good for the Nebula fight today, where it took me a couple refills to finish the objectives. One of my solos today was a fight that started poorly and under the EoP zero energy economy I would have just backed out and gone again. With the energy cost I toughed it out and it was probably my favorite fight in this type of content ever. I was able to overcome a challenge I otherwise wouldn’t have even bothered to attempt had it not been for this design change.
At any rate, I hope that provides some insight on how these decisions are made. I wanted to take some time to write this down as I know a lot of members of the community have taken time to provide detailed feedback and I appreciate that effort. I have a vacation that starts tomorrow so I probably won’t be responding to anything for a few weeks, but I will be lurking and will definitely be back in March to answer questions about some new things coming to the Contest starting with our next build.
Thanks all,
Jon AKA Crashed
If you want some specific data point that allows you to determine what this is for any particular company by simple reference, I’m afraid no such thing exists. At least not that I’ve seen.
I do have one follow up question, whenever you happen to see this: you mentioned that the primary goal of the energy cost was to introduce some risk or jeopardy into this game experience. I think you accomplished that goal, but my question is: why is that a goal?
Is it based on an expectation that this will enhance the fun for some players, like you experienced with the Nebula fight? Is it intended to increase the challenge of the content? Or is it meant to increase the satisfaction and sense of accomplishment for players that complete it? Or maybe to keep players striving to improve so they stay engaged with the game? (Or maybe all of these, or something else that I haven't thought of?)
Speaking for myself, I can say that I enjoy this game even when there is minimal risk involved. I do feel a sense of accomplishment when I beat a tough act boss. But mostly I find those fights fun because they feel like a puzzle to solve, and I love solving puzzles. The risk of losing resources is not the fun part for me. Instead, the resources provide the means for me to have fun with the game. If I run out of resources, then I can't have any fun. And if I were to use up all my resources without anything to show for it, I think I would be very frustrated.
In fact, the OP comes right out and says it later in the post: “is creating hundreds of dollars in energy revenue worth losing thousands of dollars in other revenue?” That is unambiguous.
I have never made an actual suggestion to Kabam before (I'm no @DNA3000 with actual game changing input!) but have one to proffer now having read both player and your feedback:
Can you possibly implement WoW Duel tokens like you do for regular Duel tokens today? This would let everyone have 5 (or whatever number you want) practices per day to learn mechanics of the fight without huge energy costs.
But it would let you keep the 5 energy cost and desired risk design of being KOed as players would still need to perform well in the actual fight. Hopefully this approach also let us you use existing Duel token programming so a WOW token system wouldn't require programming from scratch.
Intended result? Players are given a controlled number of practice runs but still require energy use in actual fight if they choose to keep quitting the fight over and over
Thanks again for sharing your decision making process. It means a lot to the community!
Appreciate the response. And yes, it’s an awful feeling to throw away handfuls of energy refills and get nothing accomplished. The energy cost wouldn’t be as big of an issue if the first WoW wasn’t so punishing.
Week 2 felt different...definitely more in like with SoP last year. The enjoyable part was that there are a ton of counters and it wasn't nearly as restrictive as Week 1. My point is that when the nodes/fight design feel good, the cost of energy/consumables doesn't factor in as much...Play the fight well, and you get through it. Don't, and you get punished either by needing more practice (energy) or using potions/revives.