What happened to class advantages?

I don’t get what’s going on with champions that counter their disadvantage. Why are cosmics immune to fate seal, nullify and power steal? No techs do any of that(except one vision). Now there’s destroyer who is immune to slow… he should be HURT by slow like everyone else. Serpent who probably counters mystic more than tech. He stops unstoppable.. but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! Directly counters juggernaut. Kabam is more and more making all my favorite champions useless.

Comments

Jefechuta

Yup, cant agree more, I dont really like that the class that is supposed to counter you aint able to do so

Samanun

well i mean anyone counters juggy but yeah I understand what you mean but i dont really mind it tho

Pikolu

I blame Magneto

Toproller89

I don’t get what’s going on with champions that counter their disadvantage. Why are cosmics immune to fate seal, nullify and power steal? No techs do any of that(except one vision). Now there’s destroyer who is immune to slow… he should be HURT by slow like everyone else. Serpent who probably counters mystic more than tech. He stops unstoppable.. but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! Directly counters juggernaut. Kabam is more and more making all my favorite champions useless.

Nimrod: Am I a joke to you?

Nemesis_17

I blame Magneto

He’s what made this concept attractive.

winterthur

Time to bring back Role Reversal global node.

ahmynuts

Time to bring back Role Reversal global node.

Be careful what you wish for

JarlofModesto25

well i mean anyone counters juggy but yeah I understand what you mean but i dont really mind it tho

A lot of people counter Juggs but not many make him unplayable

JarlofModesto25

I blame Magneto

Haha magneto is the exception. I think it all started after Galan

ahmynuts

I blame Magneto
Haha magneto is the exception. I think it all started after Galan

Magneto:

winterthur

Time to bring back Role Reversal global node.
Be careful what you wish for

Thought it will be good. All six classes will be OP over Collector and the likes.

Jack2634

but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! .

*laughed in nimgoat and red skull*

Toproller89

I blame Magneto
Haha magneto is the exception. I think it all started after Galan

Nope, Angela

Jack2634

but yeah i get the OP's idea. I don't like kabam's way of designing new champions. Fun and interactive unavoidable damage. This is basically what they did to the community via the release of the OG mystic goat dormammu. It is just much much worse now.

Can't wait to see when they release champ with built-in kit like "True nullify" which completely make nullify like a joke and "True power burn/drain" lol

Normax_X

Yep, the 4 recent mystic champs (excluding kushala) have garbage buff control, wolf kindred destroyer white tiger, its like the whole point of being a mystic champ is fading away

Ercarret

The mystic class basically died after Doom came out in 2019. He has some of the best power control in the game, best buff control, best a lot of things that mystic champions were typically made for. He basically made the rest of the entire class redundant because he could do most things the best, so there was no need to really invest in other champions.

Since then, Kabam has branched out both what the mystic class can do and what kind of counters the cosmic class needs. Suddenly, Doom is no longer automatically the best option because his nullify and stagger are no longer the only mechanics to deal with buffs, and some cosmic champions require other counters. Basically, the classes evolved past the "cosmics gain buffs and mystics nullify them" relationship that had been there since pretty much the start of the game.

This does cause friction at times. Especially when champions are released before the mechanics intended to combat them effectively aren't yet in the game (I remember when America Chavez came into the game and one of the ways to counter her was to place a Wither debuff on her, which confused a lot of people since that wasn't a thing in the game at that point and only came out some time later when Spidey 2099 was released).

However, I strongly disagree with the notion that champions should be limited to "their" class's utility. I have no problem whatsoever that Serpent counters Unstoppable. That's great! Just because there aren't that many tech champions with it doesn't mean they can't stand on top of nodes that grant them it, either now or in the future.

Plus, we recently got the newly-buffed Red Skull, one of who's brand-new mechanics is a super annoying unstoppable that won't go away until you hit his block and take damage. Sounds like something that would need a cosmic counter, and what do you know! Serpant can deal with it.

Overall, I think Kabam needed to reevaluate how they design champion a couple of years ago. I'm pretty sure that's why it took such an insanely long time to get a new mutant into the game, because Nimrod countered their whole design philosophy to mutants. He's a monster even against all of the mutants that were released after him, up until Onslaught.

Ultimately, the game needs to evolve. The same mystic champion can't be OP for years on end, just like the best cosmic or tech or whichever class champion can't. As such, developing new champions that need different counters is, in the end, healthy for the game even if it can be annoying for a bit for us as players.

captain_rogers

@Ercarret
I don't think mystic class died with doom. Obviously doom is broken and do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean They can introduce a lot of nullify/stagger/fateseal immune champs.

There are broken mystic champs, but none of them have any abiltiy to counter or purify non damaging debuffs (Science class effects). Similarly no science champs counter purify/cleanse or Critical hits (Skill class effects). Similarly no skill champ counters or removes prowess or regen effects, or apply heal block (Mutant class effects).

Some mutants like magneto and onslaught counter metal champs, which is mostly tech, but they are exception since magneto's entire character revolves around controlling metals.

Kitty is a issue. She reduces AAR of robots by 20% while phasing, which is a unwanted abiltiy.

Except these champs, only cosmic and tech champs have abilities that counter class advantage.

Galan, adam and serpent counter fateseal. Adam, maestro and vox counter neutralize, gladiator if I'm not wrong, counter nullify as well I think. That is literally every cosmic released after 2023 counters nullify or neutralize in some way.

Similarly, nimrod and lady D counter Armor break. And Peni parker goes one step beyond and completely shut down true strike buffs.

Cosmic champs are more punishing nowadays with their anti mystic abiltiies.

IlociaM97

It use to be that brocken Champs had their kits nerfed on class disadvantage, like colossus or falcon

Ercarret

I don't think the mystic class is currently dead, but I do think that what revitalized it was the introduction of new ways of dealing with buffs and new ways for cosmic champions to counter the age-old ways of mystics.

If we compare the mystic class with the science one, for example. Mystics main area is buff control while the science champs' are non-damaging debuffs.

Mystics: Prior to 2019, buff control was basically just done via nullify.
Science champs: prior to 2019, you had concussion, enervate, armor break, petrify, heal block, power stings, fatigue, exhaust, weakness, and I'm probably forgetting something.

In essence, it didn't matter what kind of utility cosmic champions got from their buffs, because any mystic could deal with it via the same old tried and true way - nullify. Meanwhile, if a mystic champion came with some new type of utility, there needed to come a new science champ with a new type of debuff to handle it.

Science champs were infinitely more versatile than mystic champs since all of those basically just did the same thing in different ways, and Doom did them the best. After you ranked him up, there wasn't much of a point to the rest of the mutant class. Whereas even if you ranked up the best science champ (around 2019, that must have been Torch, right?), there were still a lot of utility that he didn't have and that you needed other science champions for.

That was not the case with the mystic class. I vividly remember ranking him up and thinking, okay, I'm done with the mystics now. I don't need anyone else just to do the same thing that he does - worse - in a different way. I did end up ranking up Mojo and Tigra because they did actually interact differently with buffs and did offer me something new to enjoy with the class, but the class was still in bad form. Those two champs came out in 2020, so the year after Doom, and in 2021, the only really good champ is Sigil Witch and she barely counts since she's paywalled off. America Chavez is good after her buff but that didn't come until two years or so later.

However, in 2022, we finally started seeing a change. The cosmic champs that came out needed different counters and suddenly Tigra and Mojo weren't fringe characters anymore. Similarly, new champions were introduced that countered the new cosmic non-nullify shenanigans. I feel like 2022 was the year that finally revitalized the mystic class.

It's also worth noting that, while there have been a lot of champions that are immune to fate seal and nullify in various forms and combinations, Kabam has also released someone like Vox who is extremely vulnerable to it.

If Kabam hadn't decided to give their new cosmic champions ways to deal with nullify, we would probably see a lot more cosmic champions like Knull that rely very little on buffs that can be nullified in the first place. I really don't think that just trudging along with cosmic champions getting new buffs that any old mystic champion could easily deal with would have been viable. Things needed to be shaken up.

WinterFields

I don't think the mystic class is currently dead, but I do think that what revitalized it was the introduction of new ways of dealing with buffs and new ways for cosmic champions to counter the age-old ways of mystics.

If we compare the mystic class with the science one, for example. Mystics main area is buff control while the science champs' are non-damaging debuffs.

Mystics: Prior to 2019, buff control was basically just done via nullify.
Science champs: prior to 2019, you had concussion, enervate, armor break, petrify, heal block, power stings, fatigue, exhaust, weakness, and I'm probably forgetting something.

In essence, it didn't matter what kind of utility cosmic champions got from their buffs, because any mystic could deal with it via the same old tried and true way - nullify. Meanwhile, if a mystic champion came with some new type of utility, there needed to come a new science champ with a new type of debuff to handle it.

Science champs were infinitely more versatile than mystic champs since all of those basically just did the same thing in different ways, and Doom did them the best. After you ranked him up, there wasn't much of a point to the rest of the mutant class. Whereas even if you ranked up the best science champ (around 2019, that must have been Torch, right?), there were still a lot of utility that he didn't have and that you needed other science champions for.

That was not the case with the mystic class. I vividly remember ranking him up and thinking, okay, I'm done with the mystics now. I don't need anyone else just to do the same thing that he does - worse - in a different way. I did end up ranking up Mojo and Tigra because they did actually interact differently with buffs and did offer me something new to enjoy with the class, but the class was still in bad form. Those two champs came out in 2020, so the year after Doom, and in 2021, the only really good champ is Sigil Witch and she barely counts since she's paywalled off. America Chavez is good after her buff but that didn't come until two years or so later.

However, in 2022, we finally started seeing a change. The cosmic champs that came out needed different counters and suddenly Tigra and Mojo weren't fringe characters anymore. Similarly, new champions were introduced that countered the new cosmic non-nullify shenanigans. I feel like 2022 was the year that finally revitalized the mystic class.

It's also worth noting that, while there have been a lot of champions that are immune to fate seal and nullify in various forms and combinations, Kabam has also released someone like Vox who is extremely vulnerable to it.

If Kabam hadn't decided to give their new cosmic champions ways to deal with nullify, we would probably see a lot more cosmic champions like Knull that rely very little on buffs that can be nullified in the first place. I really don't think that just trudging along with cosmic champions getting new buffs that any old mystic champion could easily deal with would have been viable. Things needed to be shaken up.

The question becomes where should they draw the line. With over 200 champs, adding new ones each months runs into the problem you mentioned about why should I bother getting and ranking this new champ if I already have what I need. New mechanics to keep the game fresh and interesting are needed, but it must be balanced to not break the game or add extra burden.

The complex part is that we have so much we have to memorize: different champ abilities, immunities, different buffs and debuffs, etc. For dealing with buffs alone we have nullify, stagger, fate seal, buff immunity, neutralize, soul barb, and atrophy. It's becoming a lot to keep up with on how each way handles buff control, which champs use which method, and which champs are now becoming immune to which methods

EdisonLaw

It’s to keep the contest growing. Without new interactions or mechanics, the game would quickly become boring if every single champ had the same kit as the other

JarlofModesto25

The mystic class basically died after Doom came out in 2019. He has some of the best power control in the game, best buff control, best a lot of things that mystic champions were typically made for. He basically made the rest of the entire class redundant because he could do most things the best, so there was no need to really invest in other champions.

Since then, Kabam has branched out both what the mystic class can do and what kind of counters the cosmic class needs. Suddenly, Doom is no longer automatically the best option because his nullify and stagger are no longer the only mechanics to deal with buffs, and some cosmic champions require other counters. Basically, the classes evolved past the "cosmics gain buffs and mystics nullify them" relationship that had been there since pretty much the start of the game.

This does cause friction at times. Especially when champions are released before the mechanics intended to combat them effectively aren't yet in the game (I remember when America Chavez came into the game and one of the ways to counter her was to place a Wither debuff on her, which confused a lot of people since that wasn't a thing in the game at that point and only came out some time later when Spidey 2099 was released).

However, I strongly disagree with the notion that champions should be limited to "their" class's utility. I have no problem whatsoever that Serpent counters Unstoppable. That's great! Just because there aren't that many tech champions with it doesn't mean they can't stand on top of nodes that grant them it, either now or in the future.

Plus, we recently got the newly-buffed Red Skull, one of who's brand-new mechanics is a super annoying unstoppable that won't go away until you hit his block and take damage. Sounds like something that would need a cosmic counter, and what do you know! Serpant can deal with it.

Overall, I think Kabam needed to reevaluate how they design champion a couple of years ago. I'm pretty sure that's why it took such an insanely long time to get a new mutant into the game, because Nimrod countered their whole design philosophy to mutants. He's a monster even against all of the mutants that were released after him, up until Onslaught.

Ultimately, the game needs to evolve. The same mystic champion can't be OP for years on end, just like the best cosmic or tech or whichever class champion can't. As such, developing new champions that need different counters is, in the end, healthy for the game even if it can be annoying for a bit for us as players.

He should counter armor up, not unstoppable as Mystics go unstoppable not techs besides one sometimes. That’s just how class advantages are supposed to work. You counter the class that you have an advantage on not the other way around. When I’d use Galan, more often than not I’d use him on mystics. Yes it surely was a way to stop everyone from relying on doom but they’ve overdone it by far. And for some reason they’re now countering fate seal as if everyone was relying on Longshot.

The game should not evolve. Mutants counter purify, skill usually benefit from debuffs, science are supposed to counter regen and unstoppable but I guess they won’t be doing that anymore.. mystics are supposed to punish buffs but that’s unlikely unless you’ve got the right rank up by chance. Which class will they destroy next? Are mutants going to be immune to power drain or something??

JarlofModesto25

It’s to keep the contest growing. Without new interactions or mechanics, the game would quickly become boring if every single champ had the same kit as the other

So they’re just dissolving class advantages to keep it interesting? Don’t get it. For science I’d have a few heavy hitters that could take any mystics. However with a cosmic boss you’ll likely only have one Mystic counter in your whole team because they’re immune to nullify and fate seal or whatever, not even counting the nodes. It makes class balancing your roster pointless

JarlofModesto25

I don't think the mystic class is currently dead, but I do think that what revitalized it was the introduction of new ways of dealing with buffs and new ways for cosmic champions to counter the age-old ways of mystics.

If we compare the mystic class with the science one, for example. Mystics main area is buff control while the science champs' are non-damaging debuffs.

Mystics: Prior to 2019, buff control was basically just done via nullify.
Science champs: prior to 2019, you had concussion, enervate, armor break, petrify, heal block, power stings, fatigue, exhaust, weakness, and I'm probably forgetting something.

In essence, it didn't matter what kind of utility cosmic champions got from their buffs, because any mystic could deal with it via the same old tried and true way - nullify. Meanwhile, if a mystic champion came with some new type of utility, there needed to come a new science champ with a new type of debuff to handle it.

Science champs were infinitely more versatile than mystic champs since all of those basically just did the same thing in different ways, and Doom did them the best. After you ranked him up, there wasn't much of a point to the rest of the mutant class. Whereas even if you ranked up the best science champ (around 2019, that must have been Torch, right?), there were still a lot of utility that he didn't have and that you needed other science champions for.

That was not the case with the mystic class. I vividly remember ranking him up and thinking, okay, I'm done with the mystics now. I don't need anyone else just to do the same thing that he does - worse - in a different way. I did end up ranking up Mojo and Tigra because they did actually interact differently with buffs and did offer me something new to enjoy with the class, but the class was still in bad form. Those two champs came out in 2020, so the year after Doom, and in 2021, the only really good champ is Sigil Witch and she barely counts since she's paywalled off. America Chavez is good after her buff but that didn't come until two years or so later.

However, in 2022, we finally started seeing a change. The cosmic champs that came out needed different counters and suddenly Tigra and Mojo weren't fringe characters anymore. Similarly, new champions were introduced that countered the new cosmic non-nullify shenanigans. I feel like 2022 was the year that finally revitalized the mystic class.

It's also worth noting that, while there have been a lot of champions that are immune to fate seal and nullify in various forms and combinations, Kabam has also released someone like Vox who is extremely vulnerable to it.

If Kabam hadn't decided to give their new cosmic champions ways to deal with nullify, we would probably see a lot more cosmic champions like Knull that rely very little on buffs that can be nullified in the first place. I really don't think that just trudging along with cosmic champions getting new buffs that any old mystic champion could easily deal with would have been viable. Things needed to be shaken up.

Doom was pretty well rounded but I’d certainly say he wasn’t all you’d need. He’s not great vs purify and personally I hate his play style, relying on the AI to be cooperative. And by the time cosmic counters came around I think there were already better mystics out there if I remember right. They’re definitely in overkill mode now and making all mystics only partially useful, not just doom. I do not want to have to rank up 5 mystics while I only have/need 2 skill. They’re definitely not stopping, just wait for the next cosmic or mystic.

JarlofModesto25

@Ercarret
I don't think mystic class died with doom. Obviously doom is broken and do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean They can introduce a lot of nullify/stagger/fateseal immune champs.

There are broken mystic champs, but none of them have any abiltiy to counter or purify non damaging debuffs (Science class effects). Similarly no science champs counter purify/cleanse or Critical hits (Skill class effects). Similarly no skill champ counters or removes prowess or regen effects, or apply heal block (Mutant class effects).

Some mutants like magneto and onslaught counter metal champs, which is mostly tech, but they are exception since magneto's entire character revolves around controlling metals.

Kitty is a issue. She reduces AAR of robots by 20% while phasing, which is a unwanted abiltiy.

Except these champs, only cosmic and tech champs have abilities that counter class advantage.

Galan, adam and serpent counter fateseal. Adam, maestro and vox counter neutralize, gladiator if I'm not wrong, counter nullify as well I think. That is literally every cosmic released after 2023 counters nullify or neutralize in some way.

Similarly, nimrod and lady D counter Armor break. And Peni parker goes one step beyond and completely shut down true strike buffs.

Cosmic champs are more punishing nowadays with their anti mystic abiltiies.

I didn’t know about those tech champions, that’s just insane. What’s funny is there’s more cosmics immune to nullify than science champs. Destroyer is immune to the slow debuff for some reason. Kinda seems like a skill trait if you ask me. Who’s next? Mutants immune to power burn? Science stopping those who purify? Not playing the game if only 1/4 of my class is usable on the boss forcing me to have 5+ of one class.

Crcrcrc

The reason for this is pretty simple. If there was one or two champs of each class that countered EVERYTHING for the class they had advantage over there would be no point in building a massive roster. As the game nears 300 total collectible champs there needs to be a reason champ acquisition stays relevant. That is done by introducing new mechanics and new ways to counter them. The game doesn’t want you to have one team that can deal with everything. You’ve got to build out your toolkit so you have the options to counter things as they appear.

Greed_Exodus

Now we just need a skill champ who can cook all the op mutant defenders lol

Wicket329

@JarlofModesto25 for the sake of simplicity I’m not gonna quote all four of your consecutive posts, but these are very bad takes. “The game should not evolve” is, point blank, an insane thing to say. Evolve or die is the nature of live service games.

What you’re lobbying for is functionally a return to 2014 MCoC, with bare bones functionality easily set off by their class counter. The game would be dead within the year.

Champion acquisition is one of if not the biggest profit driver for this game. If, starting today, there would never be a new piece of utility that pushed back against class advantage, then I would have no reason to pursue any new champions. Why should I? I’ve got Nimrod, Ghost, and iDoom to clear any and every mutant. I’ve got Doom, Tigra, Mojo, Hood, or even Claire Voyant to handle all cosmics. Torch, Spidey2099, and Scorpion cover pretty much every mystic threat. I can do this for the other classes, but I think you get the point.

I want new, exciting things that champions can do. I don’t want to just go “mutant opponent, bring Nimrod every time,” that’s not fun. I love the mystic/cosmic dynamic because it forces me to actually think. I look at a big Serpent in war and think “okay, I need to actually think about who works best here. Let’s look at the nodes and think about which of my champs counters both him and his placement. Oh, looks like Sym Supreme will make him regret being born, let’s do this.” That’s so much more engaging than just face rolling a lane with Abs Man.

You make a comment about not wanting to have to rank up 5+ champions in a class, that two should be enough, and I think that’s absolutely backwards. There are nearly 300 champions in this game, why would you want to limit yourself to just 12 of them? I mean, you need 30 just for battlegrounds! I love ranking up a wide array of champions to fill in the utility gaps in my roster. It’s why Mojo was my first r5 mystic, because nobody else could do what he did at the time I ranked him (and because he’s so dang pretty). It’s why I have an r5 Punisher 2099 and an r4 Psylocke.

Tl;dr - champ evolution is good, necessary, and going to continue.

Demonzfyre

I don’t get what’s going on with champions that counter their disadvantage. Why are cosmics immune to fate seal, nullify and power steal? No techs do any of that(except one vision). Now there’s destroyer who is immune to slow… he should be HURT by slow like everyone else. Serpent who probably counters mystic more than tech. He stops unstoppable.. but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! Directly counters juggernaut. Kabam is more and more making all my favorite champions useless.

The fact that 34 people agreed with this is crazy. Your post is about Class advantage and you come out with cosmic and tech and saying no techs have those abilities. Which you're wrong, there are several that do.

Cosmics are being given those abilities to counter Mystics while on defense or if having to fight a mystic defender.

I don't understand why Destroyer "HAS" to be hurt by slow. There are already other champs who aren't affected by slow. Ultron and Silk reduces it's duration by 90%

Furthermore, these abilities aren't always meant to counter the opposite class. They're abilities to counter other abilities in the game. Literally anyone with the parry mastery can counter juggs, no matter the class.

Again, I find it crazy 34 people agreed with you.

Glassback

I don’t mind it for those champs because eventually you get the roster to mitigate it, but when it’s a mystery champ like on the preview, can’t see who is so you bring a Mystic for someone like Angela it’s quite frustrating.