Options

Improvements to the Liquid Courage and Double Edge Masteries

MCOC TeamMCOC Team Posts: 520
edited April 30 in General Discussion

Foreword

In the May update, we will be making adjustments to the Liquid Courage and Double Edge Masteries when they are applied to an Attacker. Our goal is specifically to alleviate some negative aspects of investing in the Recoil section of Masteries while a Health Boost is applied, like the Saga Champion Boost. These changes will not affect the functionality of the Masteries when they are applied to a Defender.

Liquid Courage

Old functionality:
Increase the Attack of all Champions by X%, but they suffer a permanent Poison Debuff that drains Y% of modified Health each second.

New functionality:
Increase the Attack of all Champions by X%, but they suffer a permanent Poison Debuff that drains Y% of the lesser of modified or base Health each second.

Change:
Poison Debuff damage changed from 0.6% of modified Health to 0.6% of the lesser of modified or base Health

Double Edge

Old functionality:
Increase the Attack of all Champions by X%, but up to Y% of modified Health is lost by a Bleed Debuff over Z seconds.

New functionality:
Increase the Attack of all Champions by X%, but up to Y% of the lesser of modified or base Health is lost by a Bleed Debuff over Z seconds.

Change:
Bleed Debuff damage changed from 10/15/20% of modified Health to 10/15/20% of the lesser of modified or base Health.

Design Philosophy
We always want the Mastery system to remain one where choice matters. Players should feel like they can customize their loadout to best match their playstyle, their unique roster, and sometimes even a specific fight. The choice of investing points in the Recoil Mastery section or not is one of the most significant ways to customize a loadout, so we especially want to ensure it feels the right level of approachable while still having a cost.

Historically, the Recoil tree has felt less approachable when boosts are applied. This comes down to the fact that the Willpower Mastery’s healing scales on base Health while the self damage of Liquid Courage and Double Edge scales on modified Health–as I increase my Health, my healing stays the same but my damage taken increases. With the addition of the Attack and Health boost applied to Saga Champions, this interaction has become even more prevalent and reduced the value proposition of running the Recoil tree more than we’d like.

We are excited about this new scaling change because it should:
  • Keep the balanced state of unboosted Recoil tree investment
  • Increase the value of boosted Recoil tree investment to a more balanced point
We hope the new scaling allows for greater Summoner autonomy so that “Do I want to boost?” and “Do I want to use the Recoil tree?” can become two separate questions to consider, rather than boosts being something to avoid while running Recoil Mastery setups.

A note on the Glass Cannon Mastery

This Mastery is a rare source of lowering your modified Health below your base Health, allowing access to actually improve your healing to damage taken ratio–again this is because Willpower healing remains the same. We specifically didn’t want to adjust Liquid Courage and Double Edge to scale only on base Health because it would have significantly increased the damage taken by those Masteries in unboosted scenarios, meaning daily use of the Recoil tree would be meaningfully less appealing. Instead, with this adaptive change, the opportunity to lower your Health to improve your healing ratio is still there, and the ratio’s worsening with boosts is capped back at your base Health value instead of at 110%, 120%, or more of your base Health depending on how much you boosted.
Post edited by Kabam Miike on
«1

Comments

  • Options
    ubiquitousWindubiquitousWind Posts: 119
    Yes, it is good
  • Options
    jcphillips7jcphillips7 Posts: 1,099 ★★★
    So I'm curious, with the Mastery Loadouts a thing now, and with this change incoming soon...does this mean we're going to start seeing more Recoil tree usage in most aspects of the game? I want to start seeing T1 wars running 'cides.
  • Options
    Webby72Webby72 Posts: 254 ★★
    Sorry but just to check, the last para essentially means each rank of glass cannon makes willpower grant more health related to the damage lost from recoils now? I take it it doesn’t become net +ve on liquid courage but even just a little shift is pretty cool if you can afford the extra points!


    Very happy to see this change made! Thank u
  • Options
    baskinrobbinsknowsbaskinrobbinsknows Posts: 267 ★★★
    If I understand correclty, this doesn't effect champions like Robots, Baron Zemo, Shang Chi, Mole Man or anyone else who absorbs/immune to bleed and poison? Unless I'm missing something
  • Options
    ErcarretErcarret Posts: 2,787 ★★★★★
    What happens if you are boosted while running 3/3 in Glass Cannon? It seemed like you were trying to explain that in the last paragraph, but hey, I'm dense sometimes. Do you get both Glass Cannon's improved healing and the boosts' improved modified health, or does one take out the other?
  • Options
    startropicsstartropics Posts: 633 ★★★★
    edited April 30

    So I'm curious, with the Mastery Loadouts a thing now, and with this change incoming soon...does this mean we're going to start seeing more Recoil tree usage in most aspects of the game? I want to start seeing T1 wars running 'cides.

    pretend it's EQ and you're running a double non-immune unboosted. it's still a very rough go if you don't have at least one immunity imo, but still a great change overall.
  • Options
    startropicsstartropics Posts: 633 ★★★★
    edited April 30
    trying to think who would really benefit from this.

    mayyyybe photon? one immunity and her basic attacks still do good damage while in pure light.

    can see knull really benefitting, he'd heal up like in any quest. kitty too, the drain wouldn't be as much when getting started.

    horseman AA?
  • Options
    SquammoSquammo Posts: 451 ★★★

    If I understand correclty, this doesn't effect champions like Robots, Baron Zemo, Shang Chi, Mole Man or anyone else who absorbs/immune to bleed and poison? Unless I'm missing something

    If there’s no bleed or poison there is nothing to heal from from willpower, so no.
  • Options
    PT_99PT_99 Posts: 2,704 ★★★★★
    I love math, thanks for homework Kabam.
    🤓
  • Options
    bizbiz Posts: 16
    So if you face a deffender in war who running scuides there only lose base health now and not scale to the hp node boost anymore ?
  • Options
    Red_Lightning02Red_Lightning02 Posts: 122
    What about if I use a none bleed and poison champ in AW and then the opponent have 3/3 Despair? Still lose lots of health no?
  • Options
    startropicsstartropics Posts: 633 ★★★★

    What about if I use a none bleed and poison champ in AW and then the opponent have 3/3 Despair? Still lose lots of health no?

    good point. lots probably have 3 in despair now...
  • Options
    bizbiz Posts: 16
    xLunatiXx said:

    biz said:

    So if you face a deffender in war who running scuides there only lose base health now and not scale to the hp node boost anymore ?

    It literally says it doesn't apply to defenders...
    Reading...
    No it says it don't affect the functionality of the mastery of a deffender which could mean sticking a health boost on will make no difference but it also doesn't say that a deffenders will still be running in the old system at all or that it scale with the nodes that a deffender is placed on.
  • Options
    xLunatiXxxLunatiXx Posts: 1,262 ★★★★★
    biz said:

    xLunatiXx said:

    biz said:

    So if you face a deffender in war who running scuides there only lose base health now and not scale to the hp node boost anymore ?

    It literally says it doesn't apply to defenders...
    Reading...
    No it says it don't affect the functionality of the mastery of a deffender which could mean sticking a health boost on will make no difference but it also doesn't say that a deffenders will still be running in the old system at all or that it scale with the nodes that a deffender is placed on.

    Every change listed above does not apply to defenders.
    = No change

    I can't...
  • Options
    11993451199345 Posts: 393 ★★★

    Nice try fed, I'm still not using suicides.

    It is like perish song move in pokemon games. Hurting your own champs so they hit hard. This is sadistic 😡

    Or you can just use Suicide-friendly champs
  • Options
    Red_Lightning02Red_Lightning02 Posts: 122

    What about if I use a none bleed and poison champ in AW and then the opponent have 3/3 Despair? Still lose lots of health no?

    I assume big health loss
  • Options
    Toproller89Toproller89 Posts: 553 ★★★
    This is a really insignificant "buff", it's a step in the right direction but nothing to write home about. Maybe this is the beginning of Masteries 2.0 where Kabam rolls out changes to masteries slowly during the year?
  • Options
    AvnishAvnish Posts: 331 ★★
    Great Idea. Applying boost with suicide was always a bit painful.
  • Options
    MildepaMildepa Posts: 10

    I was about time they implemented this, always seemed kinda bs to me that one couldn't boost while using recoils bc of the extra damage, so I guess good job kabam, it only took you like 8+ years to accomplish the bare minimum!
  • Options
    Maverick75Maverick75 Posts: 644 ★★★
    edited April 30
    I remember the fails with masteries in 2016. They show how complex the masteries system was and is still.
    Recently, the masteries loadouts.

    I also remember the time when Double Edge bleed benefited from Coagulate. Until Kabam decided to only apply Coagulate to bleed coming from the opponent.

    Each time (that is not often) Kabam changes the masteries I use, I prepare to suffer in-game. Even if this change is thought to be make the system right regarding the masteries and boosts.

    Nevertheless the Recoil tree remains uninteresting for most of the players (according to discussions in the forum). The negative effects are too high: loss of 5% of health for each SP1 or 2, around 8% of health with Double Edge (and Liquid Courage) for the first 16 seconds of the fight, reduce regeneration by 30% with Liquid Courage.
    I am not meaning to remove them, just lower them.
  • Options
    Red_Lightning02Red_Lightning02 Posts: 122

    I remember the fails with masteries in 2016. They show how complex the masteries system was and is still.
    Recently, the masteries loadouts.

    I also remember the time when Double Edge bleed benefited from Coagulate. Until Kabam decided to only apply Coagulate to bleed coming from the opponent.

    Each time (that is not often) Kabam changes the masteries I use, I prepare to suffer in-game. Even if this change is thought to be make the system right regarding the masteries and boosts.

    Nevertheless the Recoil tree remains uninteresting for most of the players (according to discussions in the forum). The negative effects are too high: loss of 5% of health for each SP1 or 2, around 8% of health with Double Edge (and Liquid Courage) for the first 16 seconds of the fight, reduce regeneration by 30% with Liquid Courage.
    I am not meaning to remove them, just lower them.

    Huh? Coagulate does reduce Bleed from recoil mastery
  • Options
    EdisonLawEdisonLaw Posts: 2,377 ★★★★
    This actually does sounds good.

    Also when will we know the Onslaught balancing details?
  • Options
    Trek26Trek26 Posts: 200 ★★
    Will war defenders with suicides also lose less health?
Sign In or Register to comment.