Are class relationships really that important in MCOC or not?

EdisonLaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLFRCuvuuCs

Throughout recent years, we've seen champions designed to counter others that traditionally have an advantage over them. For example, Destroyer is immune to slow debuffs, some science champions are immune to bleed and cosmic champions often resist nullify or fate seal effects, or can even punish them (Maestro). Now I personally don't mind this, as this helps diverse class relationships, but as seen in this video above, this is a 51 sec Sassy fight against a Photon. This is pretty fast, even with class disadvantage.

So the question stands, Are these relationships still as important today as they once were? Why or why not?

willrun4adonut

That was crazy!!

EdisonLaw

Unsure

willrun4adonut said:

That was crazy!!

Yeah I know right? People usually expect the match to not end well, but Trappy is on another level

NONYABIZZ

There are certain elements that should remain untouched such as MASTERIES and CLASS RELATIONSHIPS
A science champion with UNCLEANSABLE/UNPURIFIABLE debuffs was TOO MUCH and I know this is just the beginning. Every new cosmic defender now is designed with nullify, fateseal, stagger immunity or even more buff ability accuracy which is now countering the class that is supposed to counter them. Magneto was an exception seeing the nature of his powers. But this is getting out of hand. Class relationships should not be bypassed in order to make new defenders complicated and neither should MASTERIES. What next, a defender that doesn't allow you to use boosts?
By the way I'm speaking in general terms of the game not from the video posted above.

EdisonLaw

Unsure

NONYABIZZ said:

There are certain elements that should remain untouched such as MASTERIES and CLASS RELATIONSHIPS
A science champion with UNCLEANSABLE/UNPURIFIABLE debuffs was TOO MUCH and I know this is just the beginning. Every new cosmic defender now is designed with nullify, fateseal, stagger immunity or even more buff ability accuracy which is now countering the class that is supposed to counter them. Magneto was an exception seeing the nature of his powers. But this is getting out of hand. Class relationships should not be bypassed in order to make new defenders complicated and neither should MASTERIES. What next, a defender that doesn't allow you to use boosts?
By the way I'm speaking in general terms of the game not from the video posted above.

This. Neutralize was going to be the new way to counter cosmic champs who are nullify, stagger or fate seal immune. Yet sooner than later, we got cosmics who are basically immune to neutralize. What happens if we get a champ who is immune to all forms of buff control?

Emilia90

Sasquatch is low key cracked on attack. When he crits he destroys a lot

spidyjedi84

Yes (and why)

75 percent of the time, you go in with a class advantage, you're winning the fight, because certain classes as you noted have protections against other classes built in. There are certain heroes in each class, though, who hit outside their roster even at disadvantage you prepare to take a loss against (Sasquatch if you aren't prepared is one of those). Knowing what a hero does for damage and your roster can help you as well, however. People like throwing Bishop down in BG and if they haven't blocked my CMM, well, depending on how I play that fight, they're going to learn "maybe I shouldn't have played that defender in that round..." Even in wars that's now been a great counter to someone people think is just going to be a good defender. The better you get at this game and looking at who people are drafting and your potential counters to threats, the better you get overall.

EdisonLaw

Unsure

spidyjedi84 said:

75 percent of the time, you go in with a class advantage, you're winning the fight, because certain classes as you noted have protections against other classes built in. There are certain heroes in each class, though, who hit outside their roster even at disadvantage you prepare to take a loss against (Sasquatch if you aren't prepared is one of those). Knowing what a hero does for damage and your roster can help you as well, however. People like throwing Bishop down in BG and if they haven't blocked my CMM, well, depending on how I play that fight, they're going to learn "maybe I shouldn't have played that defender in that round..." Even in wars that's now been a great counter to someone people think is just going to be a good defender. The better you get at this game and looking at who people are drafting and your potential counters to threats, the better you get overall.

Makes sense but those who are skilled enough can get around class disadvantage and nowadays there are class advantage matchups that don’t work, like Nimrod vs Onslaught, Negasonic vs Night Thrasher, Shuri vs Bishop and so on.

Terminatrix

Yes (and why)

EdisonLaw said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLFRCuvuuCs

Throughout recent years, we've seen champions designed to counter others that traditionally have an advantage over them. For example, Destroyer is immune to slow debuffs, some science champions are immune to bleed and cosmic champions often resist nullify or fate seal effects, or can even punish them (Maestro). Now I personally don't mind this, as this helps diverse class relationships, but as seen in this video above, this is a 51 sec Sassy fight against a Photon. This is pretty fast, even with class disadvantage.

So the question stands, Are these relationships still as important today as they once were? Why or why not?

I think class advantage should still remain important, however I understand in some cases they won't be for the small sake of making sense. In Photon's case vs Skill, her bleed immunity makes sense due to the nature of her powers.

In BGs, I've used CMM against Mojo when I had no other choive. I won because of her Indestructible ability. She took damage but we still got the win.

Lokx

Yes (and why)

I don’t think it’s as significant as it once was, but it still has importance.

NONYABIZZ said:

There are certain elements that should remain untouched such as MASTERIES and CLASS RELATIONSHIPS
A science champion with UNCLEANSABLE/UNPURIFIABLE debuffs was TOO MUCH and I know this is just the beginning. Every new cosmic defender now is designed with nullify, fateseal, stagger immunity or even more buff ability accuracy which is now countering the class that is supposed to counter them. Magneto was an exception seeing the nature of his powers. But this is getting out of hand. Class relationships should not be bypassed in order to make new defenders complicated and neither should MASTERIES. What next, a defender that doesn't allow you to use boosts?
By the way I'm speaking in general terms of the game not from the video posted above.

I agree with masteries, but i highly disagree with class advantage. While it should be made apparent that there is a class dynamic for a champ, either advantage or disadvantage, having abilities that can’t be countered so easily by a single class allows for more diverse pairings. The games pvp aspect would quickly become boring if simply bringing someone of the advantageous class would defeat the opponent. The game would have no valuable cosmic defender if doom could take on all of them. And doom would become too op if he could nullify and stagger every cosmic champion. Additionally it would make new champs less fun to design unique kits because in the end they’d just get countered by the power house of the opposite class.

For example the slow aspect on destroyer, it makes me have to use alternative champs then silk meaning it gives more life to less used champs like spiderman who uses decelerate. While it does seem lazy, if mcoc wants to survive a long time while releasing champs monthly. These things need to occur to push the idea that one of games skill is knowledge and diverse roster.

EdisonLaw

Unsure

Terminatrix said:

EdisonLaw said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLFRCuvuuCs

Throughout recent years, we've seen champions designed to counter others that traditionally have an advantage over them. For example, Destroyer is immune to slow debuffs, some science champions are immune to bleed and cosmic champions often resist nullify or fate seal effects, or can even punish them (Maestro). Now I personally don't mind this, as this helps diverse class relationships, but as seen in this video above, this is a 51 sec Sassy fight against a Photon. This is pretty fast, even with class disadvantage.

So the question stands, Are these relationships still as important today as they once were? Why or why not?

I think class advantage should still remain important, however I understand in some cases they won't be for the small sake of making sense. In Photon's case vs Skill, her bleed immunity makes sense due to the nature of her powers.

In BGs, I've used CMM against Mojo when I had no other choive. I won because of her Indestructible ability. She took damage but we still got the win.

How long did that take? CMM still needs to ramp because Mojo doesn't have energy DOT

Killswitch01

Unsure

Vox is always destroying Abs man and its fun

Harryatomix

Class advantage gives you extra attack rating, that alone makes it worth it. You might see some champs do better against the class wheel, it just means they are good punching up or maybe counters their weakness.

Sassy here does physical damage which photons doesn't have resistance against, also if sassy crits it's game over. HT works great against Korg, he has -ve energy resistance.

SirGamesBond

Killswitch01 said:

Vox is always destroying Abs man and its fun

Everyone destroys abs, even get destroyed by hulkings

Terminatrix

Yes (and why)

EdisonLaw said:

Terminatrix said:

EdisonLaw said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLFRCuvuuCs

Throughout recent years, we've seen champions designed to counter others that traditionally have an advantage over them. For example, Destroyer is immune to slow debuffs, some science champions are immune to bleed and cosmic champions often resist nullify or fate seal effects, or can even punish them (Maestro). Now I personally don't mind this, as this helps diverse class relationships, but as seen in this video above, this is a 51 sec Sassy fight against a Photon. This is pretty fast, even with class disadvantage.

So the question stands, Are these relationships still as important today as they once were? Why or why not?

I think class advantage should still remain important, however I understand in some cases they won't be for the small sake of making sense. In Photon's case vs Skill, her bleed immunity makes sense due to the nature of her powers.

In BGs, I've used CMM against Mojo when I had no other choive. I won because of her Indestructible ability. She took damage but we still got the win.

How long did that take? CMM still needs to ramp because Mojo doesn't have energy DOT

Like 40 secs. 6* vs 6*. His Sp 1 does multiple hits, so that helped.

FrostGiantLord

Yes (and why)

Class relationships do still matter to a certain extent, with a few exceptions, like cosmic champs who have Nullify or Fateseal immunity. These are still a minority, and unless Kabam rolls more champs like this out, class relationships will still matter

captain_rogers

Yes (and why)

Bro got crazy rng with tanaraq and crits lmao. No way that's gonna happen for my unlucky a**

As for your question, class relationships should be important, but nowadays kabam love to create champs which can overcome and even punish class disadvantages. One or two champs are ok, But nowadays almost every cosmic released is either nullify resistant or neutralize resistant. Funny how there are only 3 mystics with reliable neutralize, But more than 3 cosmics champ counter them. This is a very bad design imo.

BEA5T_FURY

No (and why)

Idk with recent additions in cosmics who are practically immune to nearly all forms of buff control just doesn't makes sense to me like what's the point of having class advantage if the opponent is immune to your effects anyway and it was just way too much with leader like his debuffs can't be purified or cleansed like just how are you going to counter that then? And champs like nimrod where having an armour breaks means nothing as his armour breaks can't be removed by cosmic like even Colossus has the same ability but if you do use a tech then that ability is disabled while nimrod just does not care which class it is overall i would say that class relation do kinda matter as you still get increased attack rating but with these recent additions it is feeling like soon it won't mean much other than a attack boost and as for the masteries I agree champs shouldn't be able to straight out negate abilities granted by masteries

WednesdayLength

NONYABIZZ said:

There are certain elements that should remain untouched such as MASTERIES and CLASS RELATIONSHIPS
A science champion with UNCLEANSABLE/UNPURIFIABLE debuffs was TOO MUCH and I know this is just the beginning. Every new cosmic defender now is designed with nullify, fateseal, stagger immunity or even more buff ability accuracy which is now countering the class that is supposed to counter them. Magneto was an exception seeing the nature of his powers. But this is getting out of hand. Class relationships should not be bypassed in order to make new defenders complicated and neither should MASTERIES. What next, a defender that doesn't allow you to use boosts?
By the way I'm speaking in general terms of the game not from the video posted above.

Leaders best counters are champions with tranquilise, endurance or reducing debuff duration, all things that are found primarily in skill champions.

Cosmic characters that are immune to nullify or fate seal are still often best countered by mystic champions through the effects that they aren't immune to.

Class relationships aren't being bypassed, there are just more abilities required by each class in order to counter everything which is normal for a game that's trying to encourage roster diversification

WednesdayLength

EdisonLaw said:

NONYABIZZ said:

There are certain elements that should remain untouched such as MASTERIES and CLASS RELATIONSHIPS
A science champion with UNCLEANSABLE/UNPURIFIABLE debuffs was TOO MUCH and I know this is just the beginning. Every new cosmic defender now is designed with nullify, fateseal, stagger immunity or even more buff ability accuracy which is now countering the class that is supposed to counter them. Magneto was an exception seeing the nature of his powers. But this is getting out of hand. Class relationships should not be bypassed in order to make new defenders complicated and neither should MASTERIES. What next, a defender that doesn't allow you to use boosts?
By the way I'm speaking in general terms of the game not from the video posted above.

This. Neutralize was going to be the new way to counter cosmic champs who are nullify, stagger or fate seal immune. Yet sooner than later, we got cosmics who are basically immune to neutralize. What happens if we get a champ who is immune to all forms of buff control?

We get atrophy, and we're very unlikely to get a champion that's immune to all forms of buff control. Any champion that's immune to neutralise is either weak to nullify or atrophy

WednesdayLength

BEA5T_FURY said:

Idk with recent additions in cosmics who are practically immune to nearly all forms of buff control just doesn't makes sense to me like what's the point of having class advantage if the opponent is immune to your effects anyway and it was just way too much with leader like his debuffs can't be purified or cleansed like just how are you going to counter that then? And champs like nimrod where having an armour breaks means nothing as his armour breaks can't be removed by cosmic like even Colossus has the same ability but if you do use a tech then that ability is disabled while nimrod just does not care which class it is overall i would say that class relation do kinda matter as you still get increased attack rating but with these recent additions it is feeling like soon it won't mean much other than a attack boost and as for the masteries I agree champs shouldn't be able to straight out negate abilities granted by masteries

What champions are practically immune to all forms of buff control? Any cosmic champ that's immune to 1 or 2 forms of buff control is usually particularly weak to another, so the idea that cosmic champs are suddenly becoming strong against mystics is just hyperbole

Lokx

Yes (and why)

WednesdayLength said:

BEA5T_FURY said:

Idk with recent additions in cosmics who are practically immune to nearly all forms of buff control just doesn't makes sense to me like what's the point of having class advantage if the opponent is immune to your effects anyway and it was just way too much with leader like his debuffs can't be purified or cleansed like just how are you going to counter that then? And champs like nimrod where having an armour breaks means nothing as his armour breaks can't be removed by cosmic like even Colossus has the same ability but if you do use a tech then that ability is disabled while nimrod just does not care which class it is overall i would say that class relation do kinda matter as you still get increased attack rating but with these recent additions it is feeling like soon it won't mean much other than a attack boost and as for the masteries I agree champs shouldn't be able to straight out negate abilities granted by masteries

What champions are practically immune to all forms of buff control? Any cosmic champ that's immune to 1 or 2 forms of buff control is usually particularly weak to another, so the idea that cosmic champs are suddenly becoming strong against mystics is just hyperbole

Yeah, this actually reminds me, would love to see another mystic champion with buff immunity inflicting debuff. From the extent of my knowledge the only champ that has that is black widow CV. Would love to see another.

Also wanted to add, even if the champ is somehow immune to all sort of buff controls (which is unlikely) then there is also soul barb or champs like chavez who can punish those buffs with high damage.

WednesdayLength

Lokx said:

WednesdayLength said:

BEA5T_FURY said:

Idk with recent additions in cosmics who are practically immune to nearly all forms of buff control just doesn't makes sense to me like what's the point of having class advantage if the opponent is immune to your effects anyway and it was just way too much with leader like his debuffs can't be purified or cleansed like just how are you going to counter that then? And champs like nimrod where having an armour breaks means nothing as his armour breaks can't be removed by cosmic like even Colossus has the same ability but if you do use a tech then that ability is disabled while nimrod just does not care which class it is overall i would say that class relation do kinda matter as you still get increased attack rating but with these recent additions it is feeling like soon it won't mean much other than a attack boost and as for the masteries I agree champs shouldn't be able to straight out negate abilities granted by masteries

What champions are practically immune to all forms of buff control? Any cosmic champ that's immune to 1 or 2 forms of buff control is usually particularly weak to another, so the idea that cosmic champs are suddenly becoming strong against mystics is just hyperbole

Yeah, this actually reminds me, would love to see another mystic champion with buff immunity inflicting debuff. From the extent of my knowledge the only champ that has that is black widow CV. Would love to see another.

Also wanted to add, even if the champ is somehow immune to all sort of buff controls (which is unlikely) then there is also soul barb or champs like chavez who can punish those buffs with high damage.

That's the thing. People act like mystic champs are exclusively buff removal but realistically they skew much closer to something like buff countering. Dragon man inflicts ineptitude to weaken them and also increases his cornered damage for every buff, America just gains more attack per buff, abs counters specific buffs, wong goes unstoppable when the opponent gains a buff etc etc.

People talk about class relationships and identities all the time as if they're a set of 3 specific abilities and not having one of them makes them a bad champ of that class but if you track the game across the year it's clear they're expanding more on what each class actually does