Deathless champions, cool concept and design but terrible implementation within game modes in mcoc

To preface, this doesn't cover She-Hulk but focuses more on the trends we've seen with the first three Deathless champions. This is also not to argue whether the champions are good or bad, but rather to highlight how, despite the requirements for obtaining them, the Deathless champions don’t feel any more special than the new monthly released champs. Additionally, any potential for using them in specific game modes has been wasted.

The Deathless saga, spanning a year and culminating in the release of Deathless Thanos next year, has introduced four Deathless champions so far:

- Deathless Guillotine
- Deathless King Groot
- Deathless Vision
- Deathless She-Hulk

In the champion spotlight for Deathless Guillotine, the developers stated:

Many Summoners may remember that these black-and-white versions of MCoC Champions appeared as Defenders a few years ago. These newly-released “Deathless” Champions are our opportunity to let you own a piece of that MCoC history for yourself, along with some interesting twists we think you’ll enjoy.

They also mentioned:

For each Deathless, we’ll be taking the existing kit for each of these Champions, and “remixing” them. These are not reworks in any way, more so they’re us taking another spin on an older design. Most of the Champion’s abilities will be untouched, except in spots where the abilities were showing their age or didn’t align to how we do Champion Design on MCoC these days. But even though the kits will largely be the same, we’re still giving them a numbers tune-up where we feel appropriate, and we’ve got some powerful new synergies packed into the kit that don’t exist on the existing version of the Champ.

Herein lies one of the main problems with the Deathless champions: they’re essentially copy-pasted versions of the originals with minimal adjustments to their abilities or functionality. there is a huge missed potential with using original kits and fine-tuning them to any game modes that need a champion to a good attacker.

If we examine the top four game modes—Battlegrounds, War, Story/Event Quests, and Long Form Content—we’ll notice that, aside from She-Hulk (who hasn’t yet been added to the game), the other Deathless champions don’t particularly excel in any of these modes. The new design is to have meta's that are constantly shifting to introduce new challenges and champions, but then results with very little consistency in champions to use. Without any consistency for which to have the Deathless champions fit into, the Deathless champions then become very generic to counter general problems that might need solutions and will never stand out in these evolving modes.
and to also highlight champions such as serpent and punk having battlegrounds specific abilities to help with their ramp in battlegrounds.

What makes this even more frustrating is the fact that we’re about to get six new buffed champions for the 10th Anniversary, and they appear to be much more interesting and versatile than the Deathless champions. So why weren’t these kinds of meaningful buffs applied to the Deathless champions, who are even rarer?

While the current Deathless saga can’t be salvaged, future sagas could benefit from introducing truly unique champions. Look at Marvel Strike Force’s Apocalypse saga champions (yes a different game but still the same idea ), where each was tailored to excel in specific game modes, yet still usable in general gameplay:
- Archangel
- Morgan Le Fay
- Red Hulk
- Rogue
Each of these champions brought something special to one of the game’s key modes while remaining very good in the general game and having very good synergy abilities.

In summary, the Deathless champions feel lackluster for the amount of effort required to obtain them. Their abilities are disappointingly basic, and they don’t justify the effort it takes to earn them. Moving forward, champions designed for sagas should have more unique attributes and be tailored to specific game modes while still being broadly viable. A general suggestion would be to give them game-mode-specific abilities while ensuring they remain effective for day-to-day gameplay.

Comments

captain_rogers

Deathless king groot excels in path 3 war. I use him all the time. He was my mvp during houseofmirrors tactic.

PT_99

Leaks say Deathless Shehulk will lose her "easy to access" slow 🙄
Why? Considering there does not go a single week where Kabam does not cram "unstoppable" node in their quests.

ahmynuts

Technically we're acquiring the deathless champions so we can get thanos which is supposed to be the relevant champion.

All the other ones are jaut meant to be something cool on the way there

Wolf911

Deathless king groot excels in path 3 war. I use him all the time. He was my mvp during houseofmirrors tactic.

yeah he was great for houseofmirrors even countering bullseye pretty easily

currently

DKG > Guilly > Vision

She Hulk can be better than all of them ( based on the spotlight ) we just have to wait and see

just because they don't hit 100k crits doesn't mean they are bad

Guilly shines while punching down and same rank matchups just destroying everything with degens

DKG is pretty good with that damage which we got by reducing his healing a bit and with his high HP I don't think we need that crazy regen what he has now is enough for any questing scenario

Vision is a noodle but can hit decent with recoils & synergy team ( still mid )

Eakomo

Technically we're acquiring the deathless champions so we can get thanos which is supposed to be the relevant champion.

All the other ones are jaut meant to be something cool on the way there

if they are just something cool to have, why do we have to do necro, multiple battlegrounds victory track, the suffering saga, the act 8 bosses with guillotine. just for cool prizes

Wolf911

Technically we're acquiring the deathless champions so we can get thanos which is supposed to be the relevant champion.

All the other ones are just meant to be something cool on the way there
if they are just something cool to have, why do we have to do necro, multiple battlegrounds victory track, the suffering saga, the act 8 bosses with guillotine. just for cool prizes

The necropolis one was just an added bonus for every endgame player, same with these suffering solo objectives

I reach GC every season so it wasn't even a grind for me, just something I got while grinding BGs which I was going to grind anyway

The act 8 bosses challenge was pretty fun ( I used a few revives for Bahamut but who cares )

we got a full 7* with those challenges so it's good

DonkeyKong

Technically we're acquiring the deathless champions so we can get thanos which is supposed to be the relevant champion.

All the other ones are jaut meant to be something cool on the way there
if they are just something cool to have, why do we have to do necro, multiple battlegrounds victory track, the suffering saga, the act 8 bosses with guillotine. just for cool prizes

They’re trophy champs for end game content players to do, they’re not supposed to be ground breaking or meta changing. If they never had deathless champs then they would have still had all those events but without the addition of deathless pieces. It’s entirely up to you if you want to acquire them or not. It’s like how they give out a purchase offer for classic vision even tho he isn’t anything special. It’s entirely made for a person who likes collecting and is already doing endless content.

They were never supposed to be amazing which is why they’re limited in the method to acquire them. They’re for people who like the chase. If you find it pointless then don’t chase after them. I understand you wanted it a certain way but at the end of the day the intended market for these champs are for the endgame collectors not the battleground grinder etc.

AzKicker316

How many posts have there already been regarding these champs?!! Kabam acknowledged at the beginning that they weren't going to be game breaking, meta champs. DGuilly is fun with her degens, DKG is actually badass, and DViz is the lowest of the 3 that are out. Take them for what they are and were told were going to be, any higher expectations only set yourself up for disappointment.

DThanos IS supposed to be on another level. We just have to wait and see how he comes out because they did set the expectation for him to be higher.

Eakomo

Technically we're acquiring the deathless champions so we can get thanos which is supposed to be the relevant champion.

All the other ones are jaut meant to be something cool on the way there
if they are just something cool to have, why do we have to do necro, multiple battlegrounds victory track, the suffering saga, the act 8 bosses with guillotine. just for cool prizes
They’re trophy champs for end game content players to do, they’re not supposed to be ground breaking or meta changing. If they never had deathless champs then they would have still had all those events but without the addition of deathless pieces. It’s entirely up to you if you want to acquire them or not. It’s like how they give out a purchase offer for classic vision even tho he isn’t anything special. It’s entirely made for a person who likes collecting and is already doing endless content.

They were never supposed to be amazing which is why they’re limited in the method to acquire them. They’re for people who like the chase. If you find it pointless then don’t chase after them. I understand you wanted it a certain way but at the end of the day the intended market for these champs are for the endgame collectors not the battleground grinder etc.

there are other collection champions in the game, like vision, kang, thanos, banquet thropy champions, saga deal champions. all available for collectors for money.

but the deathless are champions to be collected by effort, yet by buying deals you can get better and more wanted 7*s than the deathless champions?.

also being meta shattering or ground breaking doesn't mean they can't be very good champs

unknown

This content has been removed.

WednesdayLength

To preface, this doesn't cover She-Hulk but focuses more on the trends we've seen with the first three Deathless champions. This is also not to argue whether the champions are good or bad, but rather to highlight how, despite the requirements for obtaining them, the Deathless champions don’t feel any more special than the new monthly released champs. Additionally, any potential for using them in specific game modes has been wasted.

The Deathless saga, spanning a year and culminating in the release of Deathless Thanos next year, has introduced four Deathless champions so far:

- Deathless Guillotine
- Deathless King Groot
- Deathless Vision
- Deathless She-Hulk

In the champion spotlight for Deathless Guillotine, the developers stated:

Many Summoners may remember that these black-and-white versions of MCoC Champions appeared as Defenders a few years ago. These newly-released “Deathless” Champions are our opportunity to let you own a piece of that MCoC history for yourself, along with some interesting twists we think you’ll enjoy.

They also mentioned:
For each Deathless, we’ll be taking the existing kit for each of these Champions, and “remixing” them. These are not reworks in any way, more so they’re us taking another spin on an older design. Most of the Champion’s abilities will be untouched, except in spots where the abilities were showing their age or didn’t align to how we do Champion Design on MCoC these days. But even though the kits will largely be the same, we’re still giving them a numbers tune-up where we feel appropriate, and we’ve got some powerful new synergies packed into the kit that don’t exist on the existing version of the Champ.

Herein lies one of the main problems with the Deathless champions: they’re essentially copy-pasted versions of the originals with minimal adjustments to their abilities or functionality. there is a huge missed potential with using original kits and fine-tuning them to any game modes that need a champion to a good attacker.

If we examine the top four game modes—Battlegrounds, War, Story/Event Quests, and Long Form Content—we’ll notice that, aside from She-Hulk (who hasn’t yet been added to the game), the other Deathless champions don’t particularly excel in any of these modes. The new design is to have meta's that are constantly shifting to introduce new challenges and champions, but then results with very little consistency in champions to use. Without any consistency for which to have the Deathless champions fit into, the Deathless champions then become very generic to counter general problems that might need solutions and will never stand out in these evolving modes.
and to also highlight champions such as serpent and punk having battlegrounds specific abilities to help with their ramp in battlegrounds.

What makes this even more frustrating is the fact that we’re about to get six new buffed champions for the 10th Anniversary, and they appear to be much more interesting and versatile than the Deathless champions. So why weren’t these kinds of meaningful buffs applied to the Deathless champions, who are even rarer?

While the current Deathless saga can’t be salvaged, future sagas could benefit from introducing truly unique champions. Look at Marvel Strike Force’s Apocalypse saga champions (yes a different game but still the same idea ), where each was tailored to excel in specific game modes, yet still usable in general gameplay:
- Archangel
- Morgan Le Fay
- Red Hulk
- Rogue
Each of these champions brought something special to one of the game’s key modes while remaining very good in the general game and having very good synergy abilities.

In summary, the Deathless champions feel lackluster for the amount of effort required to obtain them. Their abilities are disappointingly basic, and they don’t justify the effort it takes to earn them. Moving forward, champions designed for sagas should have more unique attributes and be tailored to specific game modes while still being broadly viable. A general suggestion would be to give them game-mode-specific abilities while ensuring they remain effective for day-to-day gameplay.

Creating 6 completely new kits on top of all the reworks they're doing and the 23 new champs every year would mean we would get 1 q year, which goes against the entire point of them

phillgreen

*waits for forum to explode if Thanos is OP.

I have at least one rarity of every champ in game, I don't really care if deathless champs are no good as long as my "unowned" tab stays empty.

DonkeyKong

Technically we're acquiring the deathless champions so we can get thanos which is supposed to be the relevant champion.

All the other ones are jaut meant to be something cool on the way there
if they are just something cool to have, why do we have to do necro, multiple battlegrounds victory track, the suffering saga, the act 8 bosses with guillotine. just for cool prizes
They’re trophy champs for end game content players to do, they’re not supposed to be ground breaking or meta changing. If they never had deathless champs then they would have still had all those events but without the addition of deathless pieces. It’s entirely up to you if you want to acquire them or not. It’s like how they give out a purchase offer for classic vision even tho he isn’t anything special. It’s entirely made for a person who likes collecting and is already doing endless content.

They were never supposed to be amazing which is why they’re limited in the method to acquire them. They’re for people who like the chase. If you find it pointless then don’t chase after them. I understand you wanted it a certain way but at the end of the day the intended market for these champs are for the endgame collectors not the battleground grinder etc.
there are other collection champions in the game, like vision, kang, thanos, banquet thropy champions, saga deal champions. all available for collectors for money.

but the deathless are champions to be collected by effort, yet by buying deals you can get better and more wanted 7*s than the deathless champions?.

also being meta shattering or ground breaking doesn't mean they can't be very good champs

The purpose of a collector isn’t to get the best champs but to get all the champs. It doesn’t matter if they can buy a better champ. A collector isn’t the same as a whale, while a collector can be a whale the main purpose is to get the champs for their existence not their value.

Also some of them are good champs, apart from vision the champs have been pretty cool and can be used for questing. It’s good they’re not game shattering because imagine coming into the game two years from now and people are putting up meta important champs that they can’t acquire unless they’re willing to fork over around 25k worth of units each. Unlike other trophy champs that can be possibly obtained through events. These ones are limited time only so the only ones willing to go for them are collectors and if you go for them now, your doing it because they naturally happen to befall on end game content you would be doing already.

Again, i understand how you want them, but at the end of the day they’re just fun chase champs and nothing more. It’s not terribly implemented and in my opinion i find the concept fun as well as the design. Sure i won’t use them often but it’s cool to have on my account like a trophy.

Eakomo

yes the main goal of any collector is to obtain as many of the objects they are interested in collecting as possible. while a collector generally is not the same as a whale, there is many exceptions to this rule.
Most collectable items will end up having monetary value attached to them especially as the rarity increases or special items get increased.

mcoc has a lot of champions to collect, and most of the rare ones are locked behind offers or just getting the right luck.

Also some of them are good champs, apart from vision the champs have been pretty cool and can be used for questing. It’s good they’re not game shattering because imagine coming into the game two years from now and people are putting up meta important champs that they can’t acquire unless they’re willing to fork over around 25k worth of units each. Unlike other trophy champs that can be possibly obtained through events. These ones are limited time only so the only ones willing to go for them are collectors and if you go for them now, your doing it because they naturally happen to befall on end game content you would be doing already.

this isn't about them being good or not, if they aren't good for any viable goals in the game no one new later will have any motivation to get them other than being prerequisites for getting thanos.
on the 25k units cost, that's very steep and it should be changed to idk something with the variants or other permanent content to get them.

Again, i understand how you want them, but at the end of the day they’re just fun chase champs and nothing more. It’s not terribly implemented and in my opinion i find the concept fun as well as the design. Sure i won’t use them often but it’s cool to have on my account like a trophy.

the design and concept is good but there is no direction or specificity with the goals of these champions, they are chase champions that aren't fun but it is what we have right now

WednesdayLength

The purpose of a collector isn’t to get the best champs but to get all the champs. It doesn’t matter if they can buy a better champ. A collector isn’t the same as a whale, while a collector can be a whale the main purpose is to get the champs for their existence not their value.

yes the main goal of any collector is to obtain as many of the objects they are interested in collecting as possible. while a collector generally is not the same as a whale, there is many exceptions to this rule.
Most collectable items will end up having monetary value attached to them especially as the rarity increases or special items get increased.

mcoc has a lot of champions to collect, and most of the rare ones are locked behind offers or just getting the right luck.

Also some of them are good champs, apart from vision the champs have been pretty cool and can be used for questing. It’s good they’re not game shattering because imagine coming into the game two years from now and people are putting up meta important champs that they can’t acquire unless they’re willing to fork over around 25k worth of units each. Unlike other trophy champs that can be possibly obtained through events. These ones are limited time only so the only ones willing to go for them are collectors and if you go for them now, your doing it because they naturally happen to befall on end game content you would be doing already.

this isn't about them being good or not, if they aren't good for any viable goals in the game no one new later will have any motivation to get them other than being prerequisites for getting thanos.
on the 25k units cost, that's very steep and it should be changed to idk something with the variants or other permanent content to get them.

Again, i understand how you want them, but at the end of the day they’re just fun chase champs and nothing more. It’s not terribly implemented and in my opinion i find the concept fun as well as the design. Sure i won’t use them often but it’s cool to have on my account like a trophy.
the design and concept is good but there is no direction or specificity with the goals of these champions, they are chase champions that aren't fun but it is what we have right now

What do you mean no direction or goals for these champs? Their design concepts are all deviations from the original kits to varying degrees, and their goals are to be used as a synergy team with deathless thanos.

Also its pretty disingenuous to say that they cost 25k units. They're tailored around what it takes to compete their initial unlocks, the unit cost is exclusively catch up method that had always been advertised as of far less value than the way they're supposed to be unlocked.

You say they aren't fun, but then also say that then being good is irrelevant so what is your actual complaint here

Eakomo

Also its pretty disingenuous to say that they cost 25k units. They're tailored around what it takes to compete their initial unlocks, the unit cost is exclulsively catch up method that had always been advertised as of far less value than the way they're supposed to be unlocked.

I hope that won't be 25k units, but if the only way to get them after thanos is to buy the catch up bundles then they cost 25k units. but untill they say how they want to unlock the champions in the future we dont know yet.

on the synergy focus, synergy teams haven't been what they used to be, and the current 3 barely have synergies among themselves. so are we going to see thanos good abilities being locked behind synergies?.

and the lack of direction is mainly in what they are meant to do and where to do it in the game

ThePredator1001

Leaks say Deathless Shehulk will lose her "easy to access" slow 🙄
Why? Considering there does not go a single week where Kabam does not cram "unstoppable" node in their quests.

She will have fear instead and so she will shut down unblockable and miss instead of unstoppable and evade. I actually think she will be very helpful since unblockable has been very common as well. Her ramp up is also faster and easier to maintain so as long as her damage is decent she will be a great champ.

We have a lot of slow champs, not many champs that counter unblockable.

WednesdayLength

Also its pretty disingenuous to say that they cost 25k units. They're tailored around what it takes to compete their initial unlocks, the unit cost is exclulsively catch up method that had always been advertised as of far less value than the way they're supposed to be unlocked.

I hope that won't be 25k units, but if the only way to get them after thanos is to buy the catch up bundles then they cost 25k units. but untill they say how they want to unlock the champions in the future we dont know yet.

on the synergy focus, synergy teams haven't been what they used to be, and the current 3 barely have synergies among themselves. so are we going to see thanos good abilities being locked behind synergies?.

and the lack of direction is mainly in what they are meant to do and where to do it in the game

They've said that they'll likely be available a long time in the future, probably locked behind some hard content. The intent is to get them now when they come out and that's always been known. Complaining about that is like complaining about not getting last years banquet rewards if you only started playing in January. They're a reward for people that have been playing the game for a long time.

Yes, thanos will have synergies for them. They've been designed as a questing team that is best when they're all together, and honestly getting free champions instead of random pngs that you build up over the year to unlock is just a more interesting way of doing it, especially when the champions have their own uses.

BigBlueOx

So I think the Deathless kit execution has been confusing in general. And D.Vision’s hype machine and ultimate disappointment are what has people do sour on this right now. But let’s look at them.

Deathless Guilly, has an insanely high DPS potential, but was such a bland start to the chase unfortunately as she ended up being just a copy and paste character with Degen’s instead of bleeds. And most confusingly added to the game with 0 sp1 abilities… I mean somebody had to know that was gonna get met with disappointment. At least give her a precision passive or a guaranteed crit or two. Honestly something small woulda probably improved her reception.

DKG - this one I think the community is getting a bit twisted on. This was a smart and fun twist on KG, and I think the damage is definitely there.

D.Vision… this is where the wheels came of the bus or we sprung a flat. This dude was hyped as having lots of damage, a fun new mechanic, but it was gonna cost him some power control… but what he ended up being was nerfed power control with pillowy fists that barely hit harder than his 6star counter parts… that’s nuts. Heck AoU Vision can do fights probably has a similar DPS output because of his enhanced power control. Unless there’s a balance update here then he’s a huge miss.

D. She Hulk now gets the unfortunate task of having to following up D.Vision, but she looks like she might be a fun take on things, but will need testing. I do worry that other Unblockable and Miss counters in the class will make her unpopular, but I don’t know if that’s more a commentary on how OP Science is right now rather than a comment on her design.

But at the end of the day… it’s Thanos that will really make or break this whole experiment. If he ends up being not only a banger, but a fun attacker then this will end up being considered a big success. Regardless of how the others perform

pseudosane

While i'm not a fan of any of the deathless champs so far, the only reason we have to collect them is because Deathless Thanos is supposed to be worth it. This is all a buildup for him.

BringPopcorn

Deathless thanos better be worth the hype or its going to be a huge waste of time 🤣

Eakomo

So I think the Deathless kit execution has been confusing in general. And D.Vision’s hype machine and ultimate disappointment are what has people do sour on this right now. But let’s look at them.

Deathless Guilly, has an insanely high DPS potential, but was such a bland start to the chase unfortunately as she ended up being just a copy and paste character with Degen’s instead of bleeds. And most confusingly added to the game with 0 sp1 abilities… I mean somebody had to know that was gonna get met with disappointment. At least give her a precision passive or a guaranteed crit or two. Honestly something small woulda probably improved her reception.

DKG - this one I think the community is getting a bit twisted on. This was a smart and fun twist on KG, and I think the damage is definitely there.

D.Vision… this is where the wheels came of the bus or we sprung a flat. This dude was hyped as having lots of damage, a fun new mechanic, but it was gonna cost him some power control… but what he ended up being was nerfed power control with pillowy fists that barely hit harder than his 6star counter parts… that’s nuts. Heck AoU Vision can do fights probably has a similar DPS output because of his enhanced power control. Unless there’s a balance update here then he’s a huge miss.

D. She Hulk now gets the unfortunate task of having to following up D.Vision, but she looks like she might be a fun take on things, but will need testing. I do worry that other Unblockable and Miss counters in the class will make her unpopular, but I don’t know if that’s more a commentary on how OP Science is right now rather than a comment on her design.

But at the end of the day… it’s Thanos that will really make or break this whole experiment. If he ends up being not only a banger, but a fun attacker then this will end up being considered a big success. Regardless of how the others perform

initially the hype was on the deathless commanders, now it's fully on thanos and he really has to meet or completely pass the mark for this to be worth it

Bendy

So I think the Deathless kit execution has been confusing in general. And D.Vision’s hype machine and ultimate disappointment are what has people do sour on this right now. But let’s look at them.

Deathless Guilly, has an insanely high DPS potential, but was such a bland start to the chase unfortunately as she ended up being just a copy and paste character with Degen’s instead of bleeds. And most confusingly added to the game with 0 sp1 abilities… I mean somebody had to know that was gonna get met with disappointment. At least give her a precision passive or a guaranteed crit or two. Honestly something small woulda probably improved her reception.

DKG - this one I think the community is getting a bit twisted on. This was a smart and fun twist on KG, and I think the damage is definitely there.

D.Vision… this is where the wheels came of the bus or we sprung a flat. This dude was hyped as having lots of damage, a fun new mechanic, but it was gonna cost him some power control… but what he ended up being was nerfed power control with pillowy fists that barely hit harder than his 6star counter parts… that’s nuts. Heck AoU Vision can do fights probably has a similar DPS output because of his enhanced power control. Unless there’s a balance update here then he’s a huge miss.

D. She Hulk now gets the unfortunate task of having to following up D.Vision, but she looks like she might be a fun take on things, but will need testing. I do worry that other Unblockable and Miss counters in the class will make her unpopular, but I don’t know if that’s more a commentary on how OP Science is right now rather than a comment on her design.

But at the end of the day… it’s Thanos that will really make or break this whole experiment. If he ends up being not only a banger, but a fun attacker then this will end up being considered a big success. Regardless of how the others perform

Looking at the kit will see but i wish they kept the slow and petrify instead of wither and fear only 2 things i wish never changed trauma is a debuff will see how it fairs over fury passives but time will tell