Beta Ray Bill and Enchantress Balance Update Discussion

See title

Personally disappointed that Enchantress hasn't received a slight defense nerf or attack buff. Her damage reflection is a bit too much making for oddly lopsided matchups even when fighting a much lower PI Enchantress than your attacker.

Comments

altavista

She's fine on defense since she doesn't exactly require a specific counter but rather skill, knowledge, and some RNG luck.

I was hoping for an Offensive tweak, but oh well.

My main question is from the balance update post:

Recent quests and challenges such as our seasonal “Pain” quests, and Necropolis challenges have given summoners plenty of space to capitalize on her flexibility and control when ramped up.

Who the heck is using her in Necropolis challenges? I haven't heard of anyone promoting using Enchantress for the Cul's objective, so how large is that sample size that this is based on?

StarLordWho_1

So The Leader, Enchantress and Serpent are all perfectly balanced? What an absolute joke.

Folkvangr

She's fine on defense since she doesn't exactly require a specific counter but rather skill, knowledge, and some RNG luck.

I was hoping for an Offensive tweak, but oh well.

My main question is from the balance update post:
Recent quests and challenges such as our seasonal “Pain” quests, and Necropolis challenges have given summoners plenty of space to capitalize on her flexibility and control when ramped up.

Who the heck is using her in Necropolis challenges? I haven't heard of anyone promoting using Enchantress for the Cul's objective, so how large is that sample size that this is based on?

There is a video of her soloing 3 fights of that path at 6* r5a

Nemesis_17

Pretty much what I expected. Base enchantress isn’t a big deal it’s only really when nodes are added on that she gets rather unbalanced.

I don’t play aw, but to those who do, is she still broken op on heavy hitter? I remember even 5* were getting kills with that node but idk if that’s more so due to the tactic or the node.

Darkness275

So The Leader, Enchantress and Serpent are all perfectly balanced? What an absolute joke.

So, there's a bit of a mis-interpretation here which has really spiraled and become a thing ever since the rebalancing period was announced. Almost making the term 'rebalancing' itself a misnomer. At least how we, the community, view it vs how it's used and intended by the development and balancing team.

Rebalancing isn't aimed at making champions perfectly balanced characters. They're not supposed to be. They're not all meant to be both great attackers and defenders. They're not even necessarily meant to be comparable to each other. At least not all of them all of the time.

That's not what rebalancing is nor is it what it's intended to mean.

Rebalancing, is regarding the champion's specific and uniquely projected goals. When a champion does not attain the marks that was set for them by the team - they get rebalanced. Balanced back towards those markers/goals. So whether they're over-performing or under-performing, it doesn't matter.

The process has nothing to do with whether or not Leader is perfectly balanced overall as a character in the eyes of the community. The Leader was designed and released with very specific goals. Does he meet them: Yes -> No rebalance is needed. No? -> Rebalance.

captain_rogers

Pretty much what I expected. Base enchantress isn’t a big deal it’s only really when nodes are added on that she gets rather unbalanced.

I don’t play aw, but to those who do, is she still broken op on heavy hitter? I remember even 5* were getting kills with that node but idk if that’s more so due to the tactic or the node.

She is managable with slow champions/unstoppable counters. She is as bad as destroyer in protection indestructible node. Thing is, she gets bad with previous provaceteur defense tactic as she constantly throws specials. Any defensive tactic or node that allows her to throw back to back specials without allowing the attacker to removespells make her extremely unfair. Like the last season Matador meta.

captain_rogers

Fixing enchantress is easy as, her spells on defense is based on predefined 7 sets.

Changing the combinations to something easy, or even changing it such a way each set triggers only once until all gets triggere once, makes it such a easy fix to enchantress. But kebem never understand us.

Giantwalrus56

So The Leader, Enchantress and Serpent are all perfectly balanced? What an absolute joke.
So, there's a bit of a mis-interpretation here which has really spiraled and become a thing ever since the rebalancing period was announced. Almost making the term 'rebalancing' itself a misnomer. At least how we, the community, view it vs how it's used and intended by the development and balancing team.

Rebalancing isn't aimed at making champions perfectly balanced characters. They're not supposed to be. They're not all meant to be both great attackers and defenders. They're not even necessarily meant to be comparable to each other. At least not all of them all of the time.

That's not what rebalancing is nor is it what it's intended to mean.

Rebalancing, is regarding the champion's specific and uniquely projected goals. When a champion does not attain the marks that was set for them by the team - they get rebalanced. Balanced back towards those markers/goals. So whether they're over-performing or under-performing, it doesn't matter.

The process has nothing to do with whether or not Leader is perfectly balanced overall as a character in the eyes of the community. The Leader was designed and released with very specific goals. Does he meet them: Yes -> No rebalance is needed. No? -> Rebalance.

Correct. Also, very well explained, but unfortunately this response is way too logical for these forums

Phantøm_Echø

Fixing enchantress is easy as, her spells on defense is based on predefined 7 sets.

Changing the combinations to something easy, or even changing it such a way each set triggers only once until all gets triggere once, makes it such a easy fix to enchantress. But kebem never understand us.

Sure but then she isn't a 5/5 on defense which is what was intended

captain_rogers

So The Leader, Enchantress and Serpent are all perfectly balanced? What an absolute joke.
So, there's a bit of a mis-interpretation here which has really spiraled and become a thing ever since the rebalancing period was announced. Almost making the term 'rebalancing' itself a misnomer. At least how we, the community, view it vs how it's used and intended by the development and balancing team.

Rebalancing isn't aimed at making champions perfectly balanced characters. They're not supposed to be. They're not all meant to be both great attackers and defenders. They're not even necessarily meant to be comparable to each other. At least not all of them all of the time.

That's not what rebalancing is nor is it what it's intended to mean.

Rebalancing, is regarding the champion's specific and uniquely projected goals. When a champion does not attain the marks that was set for them by the team - they get rebalanced. Balanced back towards those markers/goals. So whether they're over-performing or under-performing, it doesn't matter.

The process has nothing to do with whether or not Leader is perfectly balanced overall as a character in the eyes of the community. The Leader was designed and released with very specific goals. Does he meet them: Yes -> No rebalance is needed. No? -> Rebalance.

So we can say mid champs are mid cuz kabam made their bar low?

AVENGERSXWARS

i don't like enchantress wasn't nerfed she should have been the fact that she can actively stop you from getting rid of her spells because of miss unstoppable is so dumb and personally her sp2 shouldn't be locked while on defense it just makes her that much harder to deal with this just goes to show that kabam really doesnt want to listen to the players and will nerf anyone they deem too powerful instead of champs who actually are

EdisonLaw

Fixing enchantress is easy as, her spells on defense is based on predefined 7 sets.

Changing the combinations to something easy, or even changing it such a way each set triggers only once until all gets triggere once, makes it such a easy fix to enchantress. But kebem never understand us.

Kebem?
@PT_99

psp742

Sad fact is people tend to have their own vision of each champions perceived ability and power level.. remember this is Marvel Contest of Champions.. not the MCU or actual Marvel Universe.. if kabam made them as OP as their original counterparts.. then this would make some match so lopsided.

Example: The Inhuman Blackbolt whisper can kill someone easily.. Blackbolt sp3 is him shouting at the opponent.. they aren't affected much by it thou.. maybe he has laryngitis.. lol

Sentry is improved after his buff.. but he isn't upto Hyperion or Adam Warlock level yet.

As mentioned above, each character/ champion have their own niche and specialization.. whether we see the utility or not, as long as they hit the design attack/ defense metric as set by kabam designers.. they get adjusted accordingly.. wished some champions get a little semblance to their Marvel persona.

Can only 🤞 🤞 🤞

Capricious

I do not like this decision at all. No change to either champion, and poor transparency about how Enchantress is performing. Her post essentially says “she was designed to be strong when she ramps up and we’re seeing that on defense she’s really strong” the idea that this is “Reflected on offense” is mind boggling.

I’m going to do my best not to heat up but I would appreciate if we had a detailed explanation about how enchantresses offensive kit is even remotely comparable to her defensive kit. Defensive enchantress starts off invulnerable, at times untouchable, with higher damage and that’s without factoring in quest nodes. We’ve all said this already and pointing out that there are long form quest fights where Enchantress players can sit back and ramp up doesn’t address the time that it takes to ramp up, the damage that she does compared to other mystic options (who have long and short ramp up times), the penalties for losing your ramp progress which in no way is comparable to Defender Enchantress and they’re also choosing not to let us carry over any of her effects. This reads as pure laziness

Shammy_83

I believe we deserve an explanation on this one. What about Enchantress' ramp up time is acceptable?

You literally just buffed/altered Northstar because it took too long to ramp him. You didn't change his damage but sped up playing him so he was more practical. You did the exact same thing to Shuri, same damage and shorter ramp. Now you have the most complicated champ in history that takes an absurd amount to time to ramp and don't think that needed to be shortened at all? Her damage is great after you spend 5 minutes getting it there but she's worthless on offense in every single game mode outside of Everest content. She's so unique and I was really looking forward to an opportunity to play her more, just like my new r2 Northstar, and you find her ramp acceptable?

Nemesis_17

Pretty much what I expected. Base enchantress isn’t a big deal it’s only really when nodes are added on that she gets rather unbalanced.

I don’t play aw, but to those who do, is she still broken op on heavy hitter? I remember even 5* were getting kills with that node but idk if that’s more so due to the tactic or the node.
She is managable with slow champions/unstoppable counters. She is as bad as destroyer in protection indestructible node. Thing is, she gets bad with previous provaceteur defense tactic as she constantly throws specials. Any defensive tactic or node that allows her to throw back to back specials without allowing the attacker to removespells make her extremely unfair. Like the last season Matador meta.

Ah alright. Yea makes sense. I wish there were some sort of caveats added for situations like that. Kinda like serpent in the extend meta. But they didn’t do it for him so I wasn’t expecting it here either.

Average_Desi

So The Leader, Enchantress and Serpent are all perfectly balanced? What an absolute joke.

The plan is not to make the champs perfect, but match what they were intended to be. If a champ was intended to be broken on defense and mediocre on offense, then they will stay that way if that's how they perform.

Yes there are discussions around the intend, and how they match the power bar representations, but it's not about "balance" and making every champ the same amount of good

Capricious

She's fine on defense since she doesn't exactly require a specific counter but rather skill, knowledge, and some RNG luck.

I was hoping for an Offensive tweak, but oh well.

My main question is from the balance update post:
Recent quests and challenges such as our seasonal “Pain” quests, and Necropolis challenges have given summoners plenty of space to capitalize on her flexibility and control when ramped up.

Who the heck is using her in Necropolis challenges? I haven't heard of anyone promoting using Enchantress for the Cul's objective, so how large is that sample size that this is based on?

My point exactly about the lack of transparency regarding her offensive stats. Truth be told I don’t think Kabam cares beyond asking “How many times can she trigger a buff? Okay she’s good to go” as if we’re supposed to be okay with launching 10+ special attacks every single fight and if we can then her (admittedly) impressive level of versatility should automatically carry us through the rest. Sure she’s got high “Potential” but why would I care if she’s paradoxically a tedious and punishing champion to use. Who in their right mind would choose her in practically any mystic situation? What does she do at a high level that isn’t literally “Holding a thousand buffs so that you can’t hurt her” which is something that offensively we are gatekept from?

BigBlueOx

The miss mechanic she has is overkill and roles far too often. No surprise here though, that’s the “balance” the team aims for with defenders these days. 🙄

JESUSCHRIST

Don't touch my rank 3 Enchantress
She gets banned every match anyway

Average_Desi

The miss mechanic she has is overkill and roles far too often. No surprise here though, that’s the “balance” the team aims for with defenders these days. 🙄

The miss is so damn annoying. I missed like 4 times in a row . It was worse in power struggle where you would keep getting a bar of power less when you got clipped

Sachhyam257

i don't like enchantress wasn't nerfed she should have been the fact that she can actively stop you from getting rid of her spells because of miss unstoppable is so dumb and personally her sp2 shouldn't be locked while on defense it just makes her that much harder to deal with this just goes to show that kabam really doesnt want to listen to the players and will nerf anyone they deem too powerful instead of champs who actually are

She gets nuked by any science/any champ in general, granted you know how to play around her mechanics. That is, knowing and performing the correct and safe order of removal of her spells.

She's annoying on power gain/ reserve nodes, but even then we've got science champs who can control that power influx.

Where she's really annoying is on nodes that build on actions you need to perform against her (knock down, intercept, heavy interrupt) or hinder it in some way.

She's a challenging champ that demands player skill over the usual rpg counter. Overall, I think she's fine defensively.

Offensively though... I'm disappointed that they're making no changes to her ramp up speed or even tweaking her neutralize potency vs cosmics (at the very least). I've had her fully set up on purple spells and she still lets buffs go through. I guess they don't want her to be a total buff controller on top of everything else, but considering her ramp I'd say it would've been fair.

dr2ws

My go to counter for her is Ham, however I imagine Titania will destroy her as well.

Usagicassidy

Pretty much what I expected. Base enchantress isn’t a big deal it’s only really when nodes are added on that she gets rather unbalanced.

I don’t play aw, but to those who do, is she still broken op on heavy hitter? I remember even 5* were getting kills with that node but idk if that’s more so due to the tactic or the node.

I've been trying to read the nodes but can't find it - which one is Heavy Hitter?

PT_99

Disgusted that Enche got no attack buff,
Like her whole 12-16 spells ramp can fall off with one single mistake?

Tf is that?
I even tried her in Necro challenges? 5 times, whole 5 times ramping her up then sp2 spam was just weird, slow and not very impressed damage.

Meanwhile 7r3 Odin of mine, ramped up in 30 seconds, spam sp2 like crazy (thanks to energize buff) with each dealing 4-6% Necro HP damage and guess what? If I lose ramp it takes only sp3 to get it all back???

Kebem is not thinking straight with these new heroes,
Who asks us to ramp ramp ramp only for us to go, "Hey where's that BIG damage at?"

Magrailothos

So The Leader, Enchantress and Serpent are all perfectly balanced? What an absolute joke.
So, there's a bit of a mis-interpretation here which has really spiraled and become a thing ever since the rebalancing period was announced. Almost making the term 'rebalancing' itself a misnomer. At least how we, the community, view it vs how it's used and intended by the development and balancing team.

Rebalancing isn't aimed at making champions perfectly balanced characters. They're not supposed to be. They're not all meant to be both great attackers and defenders. They're not even necessarily meant to be comparable to each other. At least not all of them all of the time...

Rebalancing, is regarding the champion's specific and uniquely projected goals....
The process has nothing to do with... balanced overall as a character in the eyes of the community....

This is absolutely correct.

TL:DR - Kabam wanted Enchantress to be deeply horrible to fight on defense. She is. Job done...

N8buckeye08

The community is going to lose its mind when she’s a WOW/SOS/AOA fight

Will3808

She's fine on defense since she doesn't exactly require a specific counter but rather skill, knowledge, and some RNG luck.

I was hoping for an Offensive tweak, but oh well.

My main question is from the balance update post:
Recent quests and challenges such as our seasonal “Pain” quests, and Necropolis challenges have given summoners plenty of space to capitalize on her flexibility and control when ramped up.

Who the heck is using her in Necropolis challenges? I haven't heard of anyone promoting using Enchantress for the Cul's objective, so how large is that sample size that this is based on?

@altavista I used her for a couple fights for worthy gods and MSD did too. She’s useful but definitely not the best option.

Nemesis_17

Pretty much what I expected. Base enchantress isn’t a big deal it’s only really when nodes are added on that she gets rather unbalanced.

I don’t play aw, but to those who do, is she still broken op on heavy hitter? I remember even 5* were getting kills with that node but idk if that’s more so due to the tactic or the node.
I've been trying to read the nodes but can't find it - which one is Heavy Hitter?

No idea. It’s probably exclusive to the toughest map. I just know it exists because she was causing a lot of trouble on it.

BigBlueOx

Pretty much what I expected. Base enchantress isn’t a big deal it’s only really when nodes are added on that she gets rather unbalanced.

I don’t play aw, but to those who do, is she still broken op on heavy hitter? I remember even 5* were getting kills with that node but idk if that’s more so due to the tactic or the node.
I've been trying to read the nodes but can't find it - which one is Heavy Hitter?
No idea. It’s probably exclusive to the toughest map. I just know it exists because she was causing a lot of trouble on it.

Yeah it’s a heavy hitter type node. She’s unstoppable throughout her heavy. And there’s a 90% chance of her getting the untouchable active at the start of the fight (I’m calling absolute BS on whatever the kit says). It’s not an impossible fight but it can fall apart super easily, and if you can’t hit her to dispel the green after 4 tries and loosing 30% of your health trying to bait heavys that’s the “fun” we are intended to have.