So how are we feeling about two (maybe) Serpent-level Defenders being released in the same month?

VerreauxVerreaux Member Posts: 48 ★★
in General Discussion
With the new spotlight releases, we now have both a 4.5/5 defender Dark Phoenix and 5/5 defender Yelena Belova being released at the same time. I remember around March last year there was a big discussion about the constant flood of 5/5 Defenders and champions such as Serpent, Bullseye and Enchantress are still meta definining with many new champions having entire parts of their kit just designed to shut them down (Pursuit, Ensnare and other evade counters have been almost commonplace into new champs just to help counter Bullseye, and the same kind of design with science Falcon and Spider-Woman against Enchantress).

While I'm not 100% sure yet how bad either of them will be to fight, since they are rated on the same level as the other defenders I've mentioned I think it'll lead to the same trend of any new attackers just being given random abilities solely to make them good counters to them. I don't expect it'll take long for a new mystic champion to come out who is immune to nova flame, or a new mutant who can prevent Reversal.

I personally think having two extremely strong defenders in the same month is a bit much, but curious on other peoples thoughts on this and whether Kabam is leaning too far into the trend of releasing extremely difficult defenders with very particular ways to shut them down that most champs don't have, and then releasing new attackers with hard counters shortly after.



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Comments

  • SoundwarpSoundwarp Member Posts: 244 ★★
    I mean, if dark phoenix is gunna cost what she does, I don’t think many will even have her to begin with. So fighting her if she pops up once in a while I won’t care.
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 10,671 ★★★★★
    They’ll receive counters like any other defender released. Plus Dark Phoenix is only available for whales so she won’t be that common of a defender
  • LokxLokx Member Posts: 1,758 ★★★★★
    I think their scale is a bit terrible in terms of actual rating as it’s too limiting.

    For example. Weapon x is a 5/5 defender but is no where near the level that serpent is at in terms of defence.

    Deathless vision is a 3.5/5 attacker and deathless she hulk is a 4/5 attacker. Supposedly a 0.5 difference only… i think the only reason she is a 4.5 defender is simply because a few are immune to nova flames, she had one regen (which can be lessened if you use a non energy based champ like chavez) and can also unstoppable.
  • WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Member Posts: 3,080 ★★★★★
    Unless I'm mistaken I'm not seeing much in DPs kit that can't be countered by atrophy or buff duration reduction of other kinds. Spiral might be good since she has more hits in her combo to get in to reduce the nova flame duration too. Yelena mostly seems like waiting which is obviously an issue in bg gentle seems like a solid counter for her
  • heeheeheehee Member Posts: 211 ★★★
    BeastDad said:

    Emilia90 said:

    heehee said:

    This is how they make money they release broken defenders then release perfect counters for them for $$$
    Instead of improving anti cheat in BGs

    I’ve been playing BGs since the start and I haven’t run into a cheater in my 100’s of matches in the last couple seasons
    You have been lucky then.
    Exactly, I want some of that luck.
  • LokxLokx Member Posts: 1,758 ★★★★★
    NONYABIZZ said:

    Lokx said:

    I think their scale is a bit terrible in terms of actual rating as it’s too limiting.

    For example. Weapon x is a 5/5 defender but is no where near the level that serpent is at in terms of defence.

    Deathless vision is a 3.5/5 attacker and deathless she hulk is a 4/5 attacker. Supposedly a 0.5 difference only… i think the only reason she is a 4.5 defender is simply because a few are immune to nova flames, she had one regen (which can be lessened if you use a non energy based champ like chavez) and can also unstoppable.

    You simply do not understand how metas change and the game evolves.
    Weapon X is indeed a 5/5 defender because THE TIME HE WAS RELEASED, HE WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.
    There were no many counters and he was very difficult to play around and you needed to be skillful at incerpets etc. You're comparing a 2020 champ to a 2024 champ. The game has progressed and the level with which something is deemed "DIFFICULT" is wayy higher than it was 5 years ago.

    Onslaught is a 5/5 defender, however he is not as menacing as he was at release, even though there are counters, he can be taken with most of your regular battleground staples WHY?? Because we have learned to play around him. Does that mean he is no longer a 5/5 defender?? These champs are rated by how they are at release not how they are currently in the game.

    That does not explain the large disparity between both the deathless. Sure you can say what you want about it back then, but what about how deathless vision is supposedly a 3.5 damage and deathless she hulk is a 4. The damage difference is extremely significantly different. If a 0.5 is that big of a difference between these two then how are we supposed to accurately assess the difference in defence between a 4.5 and a 5.
  • Nemesis_17Nemesis_17 Member Posts: 2,662 ★★★★★
    Yeah I think it’s too much. I thought they had a fairly decent balance of new attackers to defenders recently and this throws it off. I think they did learn their lesson with serpent and I don’t think either of these will be as bad, but it is kinda concerning.
  • NONYABIZZNONYABIZZ Member Posts: 986 ★★★★
    Lokx said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Lokx said:

    I think their scale is a bit terrible in terms of actual rating as it’s too limiting.

    For example. Weapon x is a 5/5 defender but is no where near the level that serpent is at in terms of defence.

    Deathless vision is a 3.5/5 attacker and deathless she hulk is a 4/5 attacker. Supposedly a 0.5 difference only… i think the only reason she is a 4.5 defender is simply because a few are immune to nova flames, she had one regen (which can be lessened if you use a non energy based champ like chavez) and can also unstoppable.

    You simply do not understand how metas change and the game evolves.
    Weapon X is indeed a 5/5 defender because THE TIME HE WAS RELEASED, HE WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.
    There were no many counters and he was very difficult to play around and you needed to be skillful at incerpets etc. You're comparing a 2020 champ to a 2024 champ. The game has progressed and the level with which something is deemed "DIFFICULT" is wayy higher than it was 5 years ago.

    Onslaught is a 5/5 defender, however he is not as menacing as he was at release, even though there are counters, he can be taken with most of your regular battleground staples WHY?? Because we have learned to play around him. Does that mean he is no longer a 5/5 defender?? These champs are rated by how they are at release not how they are currently in the game.

    That does not explain the large disparity between both the deathless. Sure you can say what you want about it back then, but what about how deathless vision is supposedly a 3.5 damage and deathless she hulk is a 4. The damage difference is extremely significantly different. If a 0.5 is that big of a difference between these two then how are we supposed to accurately assess the difference in defence between a 4.5 and a 5.
    Go watch DLL's spotlight on them if its that big of a deal to you.

    She hulks damage really pops off the longer the fight goes. In a shorter setting, you could argue that she hulk's and visions damage output are closer.
    I'd argue DL she hulk can be bumped off to a 5 but seeing as she's not a BG centered attacker that would've caused alot of uproar from the kids on here.
    She hulk dmg range is of a 5 but a 4 probably would've been best because it does take some time to access that 5/5 damage whereas Vision is mid just from start to finish. NTW is also rated a 3.5 so is cheeilth even tho cheeilth pops off the longer the fight goes.

    Its a range that many champs can fall under i don't know how else to explain it to you as it seems you've already made up your mind that kabam don't know how to accurately assess their champions.
  • LokxLokx Member Posts: 1,758 ★★★★★
    NONYABIZZ said:

    Lokx said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Lokx said:

    I think their scale is a bit terrible in terms of actual rating as it’s too limiting.

    For example. Weapon x is a 5/5 defender but is no where near the level that serpent is at in terms of defence.

    Deathless vision is a 3.5/5 attacker and deathless she hulk is a 4/5 attacker. Supposedly a 0.5 difference only… i think the only reason she is a 4.5 defender is simply because a few are immune to nova flames, she had one regen (which can be lessened if you use a non energy based champ like chavez) and can also unstoppable.

    You simply do not understand how metas change and the game evolves.
    Weapon X is indeed a 5/5 defender because THE TIME HE WAS RELEASED, HE WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.
    There were no many counters and he was very difficult to play around and you needed to be skillful at incerpets etc. You're comparing a 2020 champ to a 2024 champ. The game has progressed and the level with which something is deemed "DIFFICULT" is wayy higher than it was 5 years ago.

    Onslaught is a 5/5 defender, however he is not as menacing as he was at release, even though there are counters, he can be taken with most of your regular battleground staples WHY?? Because we have learned to play around him. Does that mean he is no longer a 5/5 defender?? These champs are rated by how they are at release not how they are currently in the game.

    That does not explain the large disparity between both the deathless. Sure you can say what you want about it back then, but what about how deathless vision is supposedly a 3.5 damage and deathless she hulk is a 4. The damage difference is extremely significantly different. If a 0.5 is that big of a difference between these two then how are we supposed to accurately assess the difference in defence between a 4.5 and a 5.
    Go watch DLL's spotlight on them if its that big of a deal to you.

    She hulks damage really pops off the longer the fight goes. In a shorter setting, you could argue that she hulk's and visions damage output are closer.
    I'd argue DL she hulk can be bumped off to a 5 but seeing as she's not a BG centered attacker that would've caused alot of uproar from the kids on here.
    She hulk dmg range is of a 5 but a 4 probably would've been best because it does take some time to access that 5/5 damage whereas Vision is mid just from start to finish. NTW is also rated a 3.5 so is cheeilth even tho cheeilth pops off the longer the fight goes.

    Its a range that many champs can fall under i don't know how else to explain it to you as it seems you've already made up your mind that kabam don't know how to accurately assess their champions.
    When did i say kabam can’t assess their champs? I simply stated the current 5 point system was too limited and could be expanded on for slightly more nuances. Like you stated, both dl she hulk and cheelith shine the longer the fight goes on. The rating doesn’t help fully encapsulate these condition. Also the the speed of ramp-up for DL she hulk to make a big impact on her damage that far outshine DL vision is not at all long. While she shines the longer the fight goes on, it takes hardly any time to actually get her to show 5/5 damage.
  • KoukentsuKoukentsu Member Posts: 24 ★
    Emilia90 said:

    heehee said:

    This is how they make money they release broken defenders then release perfect counters for them for $$$
    Instead of improving anti cheat in BGs

    I’ve been playing BGs since the start and I haven’t run into a cheater in my 100’s of matches in the last couple seasons
    Just because you haven't experienced a particular problem doesn't mean other people haven't. I've personally never fought a cheater before in bgs but I have seen threads with people who have encountered them.
  • DrZolaDrZola Member Posts: 9,773 ★★★★★
    Are there assurances Dark Phoenix won’t be subjected to rebalancing?

    Dr. Zola
  • LokxLokx Member Posts: 1,758 ★★★★★
    edited May 4
    NONYABIZZ said:

    Lokx said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Lokx said:

    I think their scale is a bit terrible in terms of actual rating as it’s too limiting.

    For example. Weapon x is a 5/5 defender but is no where near the level that serpent is at in terms of defence.

    Deathless vision is a 3.5/5 attacker and deathless she hulk is a 4/5 attacker. Supposedly a 0.5 difference only… i think the only reason she is a 4.5 defender is simply because a few are immune to nova flames, she had one regen (which can be lessened if you use a non energy based champ like chavez) and can also unstoppable.

    You simply do not understand how metas change and the game evolves.
    Weapon X is indeed a 5/5 defender because THE TIME HE WAS RELEASED, HE WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.
    There were no many counters and he was very difficult to play around and you needed to be skillful at incerpets etc. You're comparing a 2020 champ to a 2024 champ. The game has progressed and the level with which something is deemed "DIFFICULT" is wayy higher than it was 5 years ago.

    Onslaught is a 5/5 defender, however he is not as menacing as he was at release, even though there are counters, he can be taken with most of your regular battleground staples WHY?? Because we have learned to play around him. Does that mean he is no longer a 5/5 defender?? These champs are rated by how they are at release not how they are currently in the game.

    That does not explain the large disparity between both the deathless. Sure you can say what you want about it back then, but what about how deathless vision is supposedly a 3.5 damage and deathless she hulk is a 4. The damage difference is extremely significantly different. If a 0.5 is that big of a difference between these two then how are we supposed to accurately assess the difference in defence between a 4.5 and a 5.
    Go watch DLL's spotlight on them if its that big of a deal to you.

    She hulks damage really pops off the longer the fight goes. In a shorter setting, you could argue that she hulk's and visions damage output are closer.
    I'd argue DL she hulk can be bumped off to a 5 but seeing as she's not a BG centered attacker that would've caused alot of uproar from the kids on here.
    She hulk dmg range is of a 5 but a 4 probably would've been best because it does take some time to access that 5/5 damage whereas Vision is mid just from start to finish. NTW is also rated a 3.5 so is cheeilth even tho cheeilth pops off the longer the fight goes.

    Its a range that many champs can fall under i don't know how else to explain it to you as it seems you've already made up your mind that kabam don't know how to accurately assess their champions.
    Another example on how the rating system is too limited is shown through how kabam crash himself talks about some 5/5 defenders.



    Notice how onslaught and enchantress both 5/5 defenders can be taken by majority of champs regardless of if they have anything in their kits that hard counter while serpent requires hard counter? If they’re all 5/5 you’d assume that all of them could be played against the same as long as you can understand their playstyle, however serpent, regardless of how much you understand him, requires a specific counter. If the rating system was more advanced then you’d easily place serpent at a higher rating in defence over onslaught.
  • RevHeresyRevHeresy Member Posts: 195 ★
    I love how we compare units to dollars when units can be farmed. As said several times before, atleast we aren’t forced to buy HoF tickets/tokens/whatever for that one pinnacle champ.

    Blow 36k 2 months before J4 is what kills me. Whale for a rare champ orrrrrr whale for mats and RNG. Sigh…. Now we got 4 events that blow units/money per year.
  • Giantwalrus56Giantwalrus56 Member Posts: 1,392 ★★★★
    DrZola said:

    Are there assurances Dark Phoenix won’t be subjected to rebalancing?

    Dr. Zola



    The Dr. out here asking the real question. Feel like they can't(obviously can) even if they wanted to. Can't even begin to imagine the s**tstorm if that was to happen... sure would make for an entertaining forum
  • Abspain101Abspain101 Member Posts: 830 ★★★
    DrZola said:

    Are there assurances Dark Phoenix won’t be subjected to rebalancing?

    Dr. Zola

    She is considered a trophy champ those are not up for rebalance last time i heard anything
  • DrZolaDrZola Member Posts: 9,773 ★★★★★
    edited May 5
    Abspain101 said:

    DrZola said:

    Are there assurances Dark Phoenix won’t be subjected to rebalancing?

    Dr. Zola

    She is considered a trophy champ those are not up for rebalance last time i heard anything
    This is the traditional thinking, but…I cannot think of any of the trophy champs who came close to being meta defenders or attackers in competitive modes.

    Maybe we have it all wrong, and she’s only mid. However, this feels quite different from past P2W trophies.

    Dr. Zola
  • Abspain101Abspain101 Member Posts: 830 ★★★
    DrZola said:

    Abspain101 said:

    DrZola said:

    Are there assurances Dark Phoenix won’t be subjected to rebalancing?

    Dr. Zola

    She is considered a trophy champ those are not up for rebalance last time i heard anything
    This is the traditional thinking, but…I cannot think of any of the trophy champs who came close to being meta defenders or attackers in competitive modes.

    Maybe we have it all wrong, and she’s only mid. However, this feels quite different from past P2W trophies.

    Dr. Zola
    Weapon flex when he came out as 7*
  • ViperOfChampionViperOfChampion Member Posts: 934 ★★★
    Guess I'm pretty r*tarded, but can u just use a power control champ and bait heavies, she is just a bg's collector, just try to bait heavies and control her power, why do I feel that doom would be amazing for her?
  • TotemCorruptionTotemCorruption Member Posts: 2,762 ★★★★★
    ViperOfChampion said:

    Guess I'm pretty r*tarded, but can u just use a power control champ and bait heavies, she is just a bg's collector, just try to bait heavies and control her power, why do I feel that doom would be amazing for her?

    Did you read her kit?
  • Abspain101Abspain101 Member Posts: 830 ★★★
    TotemCorruption said:


    ViperOfChampion said:

    Guess I'm pretty r*tarded, but can u just use a power control champ and bait heavies, she is just a bg's collector, just try to bait heavies and control her power, why do I feel that doom would be amazing for her?

    Did you read her kit?
    Obviously its a no lol
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