Guardian or Jack?

Emilia90

With all the new tech champs dropping and the new mutant defenders, I thought I’d ask which people would invest in

For a while we were getting a lot of shock immune/resistant mutants but a lot of newer defenders don’t have shock immunity now. I saw Vega’s new video and Guardian can take a lot of meta matchups really fast (Zola, Jean, Enchantress, Bullseye) but doesn’t have the ability to take Onslaught or Dust. Then there’s Jack who can do Onslaught and Dust + the new Cap Britain really well but lacks the ability to go outside the mutant class as well as Guardian does

At this point who has more value to y’all and why? I’m leaning Guardian for his versatility and speed (assuming high sig with a HB relic) despite being unable to take a few mutants but ik there are a lot of Jack fans

JackTheSnack

Jack

Not even a debate. Jack rips (I’m a little biased). He was my first r4 tho

Emilia90

JackTheSnack said:

Not even a debate. Jack rips (I’m a little biased). He was my first r4 tho

I have him ranked too and he’s definitely great, but I think there is sorta a debate considering how good Guardian is outside the mutant class as well. But yeah Jack rips mutants apart

Cloudddey_bro

Guardian

Guardian is way better outside of mutants, even for mutants sp1 sp2 kills pretty much everything while Jack is mainly only for mutants. Both can do Zola so they’re even there but if we’re talking versatility Guardian edges him out

EdisonLaw

Guardian

Both are great but Guardian has more utility outside of vs mutant defenders, especially if duped like more block proficiency and bleed + crit resistance . Plus he has defensive value (auto block) while Jack doesn’t have any

Cuber2906

Jack

guardian is a sneaky photon counter even in invade meta, as he has perfect blocks so u can get a 100% hp fight against r4 photons even in this meta ( i have a sig 180 r3 guardian). got a 80 second fight against a r4 sig 200 photon this meta, while having 95% hp. not bad ill say

JackTheSnack

Jack

Cloudddey_bro said:

Guardian is way better outside of mutants, even for mutants sp1 sp2 kills pretty much everything while Jack is mainly only for mutants. Both can do Zola so they’re even there but if we’re talking versatility Guardian edges him out

Yeah so this is just not true. One sp2 and Jack is nuking anyone not immune to poison/plasma. Also has bulwark, can parry non contact, and reverse control immune. No need for a sp1 then sp2 rotation. As much as I love guardian and him being a dual threat, Jack is the much better rank up option these days. If this was between Jack and bastion I could see the debate. But there’s enough auto block counters nowadays and much better meta defenders to have in your corner. To say Jack is “just for mutants” is a false statement. Sounds like a non Jack owner statement 👀

Sachhyam257

Guardian

Guardian was my 3rd or 4th r3 champ. I barely use him outside bgs or the occasional war fight, but he's a damn demon in bgs. Probably one of my best and most consistent attackers regardless of the meta. He just cuts through bg defenders and healthpools. The sp1 -> sp2 loop pretty much nukes everything at r3. Very good generalist. I'm going to take Ironheart to r3 soon to complement Guardian, with her being able to take havok, ons, bishop, dust, and many more. Definitely worth r3 at the very least.

I still don't have Jack as a 6*/7*. No joke, I spent over 700k 6* shards when he was in the 6* featured pool. He was the one I wanted most and I got everyone except him. :[

Cloudddey_bro

Guardian

JackTheSnack said:

Cloudddey_bro said:

Guardian is way better outside of mutants, even for mutants sp1 sp2 kills pretty much everything while Jack is mainly only for mutants. Both can do Zola so they’re even there but if we’re talking versatility Guardian edges him out

Yeah so this is just not true. One sp2 and Jack is nuking anyone not immune to poison/plasma. Also has bulwark, can parry non contact, and reverse control immune. No need for a sp1 then sp2 rotation. As much as I love guardian and him being a dual threat, Jack is the much better rank up option these days. If this was between Jack and bastion I could see the debate. But there’s enough auto block counters nowadays and much better meta defenders to have in your corner. To say Jack is “just for mutants” is a false statement. Sounds like a non Jack owner statement 👀

Keyword “not immune to poison” which a lot of champs are. Way more poison immunes than there are shock immunes. And Jacks bulwark is nothing against Guardian’s 100% chance to perfect block specials. I have a r3 Jack and outside of Zola, he doesn’t take that many META non mutant defenders. (Had to capitalize meta there for you it seems like.) Jack shines strictly versus mutants but Guardian takes a lot more matchups. I get that you have a r4 Jack and have to be biased but it is what it is 🤷‍♂️

Sachhyam257

Guardian

Side note: What do y'all think about Guardian's sig? It seems nice to have, but it doesn't affect his offensive potential, it just makes him more viable for a few niche nodes/matchups and slightly bulkier. I have mine at sig80 but I don't feel like the remaining 120 sigs would make a huge difference. Thoughts?

EdisonLaw

Guardian

Sachhyam257 said:

Side note: What do y'all think about Guardian's sig? It seems nice to have, but it doesn't affect his offensive potential, it just makes him more viable for a few niche nodes/matchups and slightly bulkier. I have mine at sig80 but I don't feel like the remaining 120 sigs would make a huge difference. Thoughts?

It’s good for any nodes or champs with huge energy damage like Hazard Shift. Might work for Dark Phoenix as well?

Cloudddey_bro

Guardian

Sachhyam257 said:

Side note: What do y'all think about Guardian's sig? It seems nice to have, but it doesn't affect his offensive potential, it just makes him more viable for a few niche nodes/matchups and slightly bulkier. I have mine at sig80 but I don't feel like the remaining 120 sigs would make a huge difference. Thoughts?

His sig is amazing. The energy resistance is helpful for matchups like Domino. Max sig guardian you take barely if not any crit fail damage. The bleed resistance allows him to counter champs like bullseye with ease and pretty much gives him near bleed immunity with willpower healing. The block proficiency doesn’t seem like much but as far as bgs is concerned health is an extremely important factor. Taking less block damage = scoring higher points. The crit resistance doesn’t really do much except make him a little better defensively. The bulk of the sig is definitely the energy res and bleed res. IMO alongside prowler and maybe FAM he’s probably the 7* tech champ who wants high sig the most.

Mint9aer0

Jack

Overall better guardian more of a defender has good damage once ramped up

Sachhyam257

Guardian

Cloudddey_bro said:

Sachhyam257 said:

Side note: What do y'all think about Guardian's sig? It seems nice to have, but it doesn't affect his offensive potential, it just makes him more viable for a few niche nodes/matchups and slightly bulkier. I have mine at sig80 but I don't feel like the remaining 120 sigs would make a huge difference. Thoughts?

His sig is amazing. The energy resistance is helpful for matchups like Domino. Max sig guardian you take barely if not any crit fail damage. The bleed resistance allows him to counter champs like bullseye with ease and pretty much gives him near bleed immunity with willpower healing. The block proficiency doesn’t seem like much but as far as bgs is concerned health is an extremely important factor. Taking less block damage = scoring higher points. The crit resistance doesn’t really do much except make him a little better defensively. The bulk of the sig is definitely the energy res and bleed res. IMO alongside prowler and maybe FAM he’s probably the 7* tech champ who wants high sig the most.

I guess that's true. You bring up a good point, I didn't really consider other good max sig options within the tech class. I'd also put Shocker and Bastion as max sigs options, but that's about it maybe. Considering I have none of those mentioned (my shocker is unduped), I might just dump my ~60 tech sigs on Guardian.

captain_rogers

Jack

Jack is your one stop solution for all mutant threats. I see more jacks nowadays barely seen any guardian. Never liked guardian to begin with but with champs like jean and cap britain being new defenders jack is going to have better value overall.

xenchief

Guardian

I'll take Jack all day every day but I voted for Guardian - in case we match up in BG's I'd much rather you have a ranked guardian than a jack

Polygon

Idk if id say that Guardian is a Zola counter cuz that one meta he had a damage boost . you have to heavy Zola, and heavies ruin Guardians damage output

Emilia90

Polygon said:

Idk if id say that Guardian is a Zola counter cuz that one meta he had a damage boost . you have to heavy Zola, and heavies ruin Guardians damage output

Vega’s showcase wasn’t in that meta, it was on the CCP server + he can nuke him fine before he needs to heavy too much

Emilia90

captain_rogers said:

Jack is your one stop solution for all mutant threats. I see more jacks nowadays barely seen any guardian. Never liked guardian to begin with but with champs like jean and cap britain being new defenders jack is going to have better value overall.

Fair for the mutants thing. I do see top players like Bero and Apple run Guardian though, he can nuke a lot of new defenders as well

NONYABIZZ

JackTheSnack said:

Cloudddey_bro said:

Guardian is way better outside of mutants, even for mutants sp1 sp2 kills pretty much everything while Jack is mainly only for mutants. Both can do Zola so they’re even there but if we’re talking versatility Guardian edges him out

Yeah so this is just not true. One sp2 and Jack is nuking anyone not immune to poison/plasma. Also has bulwark, can parry non contact, and reverse control immune. No need for a sp1 then sp2 rotation. As much as I love guardian and him being a dual threat, Jack is the much better rank up option these days. If this was between Jack and bastion I could see the debate. But there’s enough auto block counters nowadays and much better meta defenders to have in your corner. To say Jack is “just for mutants” is a false statement. Sounds like a non Jack owner statement 👀

Well, so this is not true. Jack is not nuking with one sp2 even when both debuffs are applied (he does get pretty close tho). You have a rank 4 so yours might nuke r3 mutants with that rotation. But in an even ranked matchup, he's going to need a few more hits and probably an sp1 to finish the fight (THATS HOW MY FIGHTS AGAINST DUST usually go).
He does not have the damage to consistently go outside the mutant class and compete with your generalist attackers but what he does to the mutant class is well enough to make him the better option.

As for Guardian, sure he is a great generalist attacker but the truth is that we have so much of them now that we need champs to fulfil specific purposes. Techs need to counter the new meta mutants which Jack does alot better than Guardian now. You're going to have alot of champs who can nuke other defenders as well as Guardian in your deck but until we get a tech who does mutants as well as Jack and can actually put up great scores without class advantage jacks your guy.

With jean and cap Britain starting to run around, you'll need a jack. I'm not even a fan of him but he definitely has a place in the game right now.
He won't be hard to replace tho.

Polygon

NONYABIZZ said:

JackTheSnack said:

Cloudddey_bro said:

Guardian is way better outside of mutants, even for mutants sp1 sp2 kills pretty much everything while Jack is mainly only for mutants. Both can do Zola so they’re even there but if we’re talking versatility Guardian edges him out

Yeah so this is just not true. One sp2 and Jack is nuking anyone not immune to poison/plasma. Also has bulwark, can parry non contact, and reverse control immune. No need for a sp1 then sp2 rotation. As much as I love guardian and him being a dual threat, Jack is the much better rank up option these days. If this was between Jack and bastion I could see the debate. But there’s enough auto block counters nowadays and much better meta defenders to have in your corner. To say Jack is “just for mutants” is a false statement. Sounds like a non Jack owner statement 👀

Well, so this is not true. Jack is not nuking with one sp2 even when both debuffs are applied (he does get pretty close tho). You have a rank 4 so yours might nuke r3 mutants with that rotation. But in an even ranked matchup, he's going to need a few more hits and probably an sp1 to finish the fight (THATS HOW MY FIGHTS AGAINST DUST usually go).
He does not have the damage to consistently go outside the mutant class and compete with your generalist attackers but what he does to the mutant class is well enough to make him the better option.

As for Guardian, sure he is a great generalist attacker but the truth is that we have so much of them now that we need champs to fulfil specific purposes. Techs need to counter the new meta mutants which Jack does alot better than Guardian now. You're going to have alot of champs who can nuke other defenders as well as Guardian in your deck but until we get a tech who does mutants as well as Jack and can actually put up great scores without class advantage jacks your guy.

With jean and cap Britain starting to run around, you'll need a jack. I'm not even a fan of him but he definitely has a place in the game right now.
He won't be hard to replace tho.

Guardian is more than a generalist he works for Bullseye and Domino (I won't say he works for photon because it's a slow matchup) but his problem is that a lot of times he won't work at all in the meta because he's reliant on Buffs debuffs / shock and gaining his force field charges, and has a strict rotation (heavies or light ending consume his charges)

BeastDad

These two couldn't have less in common.

Both are viable and useful for different things.

EdisonLaw

Guardian

EdisonLaw said:

Sachhyam257 said:

Side note: What do y'all think about Guardian's sig? It seems nice to have, but it doesn't affect his offensive potential, it just makes him more viable for a few niche nodes/matchups and slightly bulkier. I have mine at sig80 but I don't feel like the remaining 120 sigs would make a huge difference. Thoughts?

It’s good for any nodes or champs with huge energy damage like Hazard Shift. Might work for Dark Phoenix as well?

However Jack is by far the better Onslaught counter