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IDEA - Make AI SP3's like normal SP that can be Dexterity'ed, Parried, and/or Blocked.

chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
edited January 2018 in General Discussion
Even if it is still unblock-able and most of the damage is unavoidable but you still give skilled players the chance to skill out of a portion of the damage with Dexterity and Parry. This would make the game so much better and would fix the Baiting issue most players hate (including myself... WORST part of the game for me right now is baiting). This is the best middle ground solution IMO... allows for it to still be very deadly attack but skill can get you out of it (or at least most of it).

And no... the 5* only quick-time event gimmick does not count. Kabam.... make things more skill based in the actual gameplay.
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Comments

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    chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
    No just make it so SP3's can be Dexterity'ed or Parried. Not sure why that is such a silly idea. Even if it get you out of only some of the damage... I think it is 1005 better then a quick-time event saving me 20% dmg.

    But yeah, fighting champs with auto power gain and SP3-ing us is really fun and super skill based *faceplam* I know those are just a few examples of when it gets bad (also when champs simply wont throw a SP no matter how much you bait), I can bait just fine and am getting good at it but it still for me is one of the worst parts of the game.


    Also I have a feeling both of you did not read my whole post before replying. If you did you would have known I am not advocating allowing us to block all dmg from SP3... it should still hurt no matter what, but give us a chance to avoid some of it with skill.
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    StewmanStewman Posts: 735 ★★★
    Pretty sure not letting your opponent get the L3 in the first place is "skill"

    but you're right... They should just remove L3 animations from the game entirely that way no one has any reason to use power control champs or to fuss with learning how to bait and evade specials. I mean seriously. I would rather just mindlessly tap away at my screen with no worries of unavoidable damage.

    I also heard Mortal Kombat was going to remove Fatalities from their games because it just isn't fair that you can't block them.

    On a serious note tho, maybe you should just stick to Heroic and below monthly quests. There aren't any L3's there for you to worry about.
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    chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
    edited January 2018
    Stewman wrote: »
    Pretty sure not letting your opponent get the L3 in the first place is "skill"

    but you're right... They should just remove L3 animations from the game entirely that way no one has any reason to use power control champs or to fuss with learning how to bait and evade specials. I mean seriously. I would rather just mindlessly tap away at my screen with no worries of unavoidable damage.

    I also heard Mortal Kombat was going to remove Fatalities from their games because it just isn't fair that you can't block them.

    On a serious note tho, maybe you should just stick to Heroic and below monthly quests. There aren't any L3's there for you to worry about.

    Man it just feels like you didn't actually read my post. I deleted the top part... maybe that will help with skimmers so they read the important part and not the first part and get the wrong idea.

    Anyways was just a thought as baiting is annoying to me (not saying it is a winning issue for me... so no the answer is not for me to play lower difficulty).


    Also the MK Fatality is when you are dead already... so that does not make sense. But I see where you were going.
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    IAmNotUrMomIAmNotUrMom Posts: 648 ★★★
    chev327fox wrote: »
    No just make it so SP3's can be Dexterity'ed or Parried. Not sure why that is such a silly idea. Even if it get you out of only some of the damage... I think it is 1005 better then a quick-time event saving me 20% dmg.

    But yeah, fighting champs with auto power gain and SP3-ing us is really fun and super skill based *faceplam* I know those are just a few examples of when it gets bad (also when champs simply wont throw a SP no matter how much you bait), I can bait just fine and am getting good at it but it still for me is one of the worst parts of the game.


    Also I have a feeling both of you did not read my whole post before replying. If you did you would have known I am not advocating allowing us to block all dmg from SP3... it should still hurt no matter what, but give us a chance to avoid some of it with skill.

    I get power gain being frustrating, but if you are unable to bait just take a good power control champ. Magik is my go to for all instances that need power control.
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    EpistriatusEpistriatus Posts: 1,249 ★★★★
    You’d like the sp3 from the ai to be evadable, blockable, being able to parry it, just like sp1 & sp2. That way you’ll save units, won’t need to buy revives, hence it will never happen. There has to be some sort of penalty for letting the ai get to a sp3. And yes powergain is annoying, but there are ways to work around it.
    Same goes for baiting specials, can take some time before the ai takes the bait. Not every fight has to end in 15 seconds.
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    chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
    edited January 2018
    You’d like the sp3 from the ai to be evadable, blockable, being able to parry it, just like sp1 & sp2. That way you’ll save units, won’t need to buy revives, hence it will never happen. There has to be some sort of penalty for letting the ai get to a sp3. And yes powergain is annoying, but there are ways to work around it.
    Same goes for baiting specials, can take some time before the ai takes the bait. Not every fight has to end in 15 seconds.

    I KNEW you did not read it :D

    No I want to save maybe 30-40% IF I can skill evade part of it. That's it (it should still be guaranteed damage and unblockable). Kind of like 5* champs quick-time event but better and for the whole game (and by better I mean by using Dexterity with a SP move I need to avoid instead of some silly 5* only quick-time event).
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    StewmanStewman Posts: 735 ★★★
    chev327fox wrote: »
    Stewman wrote: »
    Pretty sure not letting your opponent get the L3 in the first place is "skill"

    but you're right... They should just remove L3 animations from the game entirely that way no one has any reason to use power control champs or to fuss with learning how to bait and evade specials. I mean seriously. I would rather just mindlessly tap away at my screen with no worries of unavoidable damage.

    I also heard Mortal Kombat was going to remove Fatalities from their games because it just isn't fair that you can't block them.

    On a serious note tho, maybe you should just stick to Heroic and below monthly quests. There aren't any L3's there for you to worry about.

    Man it just feels like you didn't actually read my post. I deleted the top part... maybe that will help with skimmers so they read the important part and not the first part and get the wrong idea.

    Anyways was just a thought as baiting is annoying to me (not saying it is a winning issue for me... so no the answer is not for me to play lower difficulty).


    Also the MK Fatality is when you are dead already... so that does not make sense. But I see where you were going.


    I read your entire post. I think you are missing my point.

    The L3 attack is a major mechanic to the game. And is punishment for just mindlessly tapping away.
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    taojay1taojay1 Posts: 1,062 ★★★
    Managing the opponent's power bar is a skill. Baiting is also a skill. Besides, you say it as if it is easy to implement your suggestion. They would have to add completely new animations and change the code in every aspect of the game. Very implausible.

    And yes, I read your whole post
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,980 Guardian
    chev327fox wrote: »
    You’d like the sp3 from the ai to be evadable, blockable, being able to parry it, just like sp1 & sp2. That way you’ll save units, won’t need to buy revives, hence it will never happen. There has to be some sort of penalty for letting the ai get to a sp3. And yes powergain is annoying, but there are ways to work around it.
    Same goes for baiting specials, can take some time before the ai takes the bait. Not every fight has to end in 15 seconds.

    I KNEW you did not read it :D

    No I want to save maybe 30-40% IF I can skill evade part of it. That's it (it should still be guaranteed damage and unblockable). Kind of like 5* champs quick-time event but better and for the whole game (and by better I mean by using Dexterity with a SP move I need to avoid instead of some silly 5* only quick-time event).

    I think you believe the 30% part is somehow significant. I can understand why, but it isn't. Some attacks like light and medium attacks follow a general rule for how much damage they do (typically, 25% and 40% of your attack, respectively). But the special attacks don't follow that kind of rule. The devs set the attack to whatever they feel is appropriate depending on a bunch of factors. Some champions' SP3 hit very hard: Storm for example. Some actually don't hit very hard at all. For example, Hyperion's SP3 doesn't intrinsically hit very hard at all. It only hits hard if he stacks fury first. The devs set the SP3 damage based in large part on how dangerous they want the champion to be if you don't power control them with power control abilities or baiting.

    You're trying to reduce the reliance on power control because you don't like it, by reducing the damage you take from SP3 when you don't do it right. But that's what the SP3 attack is there for. Asking for it to deal 30% less or 70% less or 10% less is asking fundamentally for the same thing: to reduce the need to power control by reducing the penalty for poor power control. Before anyone decides if 30% is a good number, you have to convince them that *any* change is appropriate. The damage SP3 does is in effect the devs saying "if you fail to power control, we want the champion to hit you this hard." Making 30% evadeable might just convince the devs to increase all SP3 attacks by 30%, and allow that extra 30% to be evadeable. I don't think you want that, but that's entirely compatible with your suggestion, because you aren't addressing the fundamental issue: why should SP3 *ever* hit for less than what the devs *intend* it to hit you for.
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    chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
    edited January 2018
    taojay1 wrote: »
    Managing the opponent's power bar is a skill. Baiting is also a skill. Besides, you say it as if it is easy to implement your suggestion. They would have to add completely new animations and change the code in every aspect of the game. Very implausible.

    And yes, I read your whole post

    Yes I am aware and I am getting pretty good at it. It still is the least fun part of the game for me.

    Yes I know they would. It is not like becasue I made a suggestion that might be good that it could even be implemented. I am not a game dev... I just thought of it and thought it was a good idea and wanted to discuss it. But I forgot people like to think in terms of extremes on here and tear down anything that is not perfect from their perspective (as you cans see by all the people who posted without even bothering to fully read my post and fully understand what I was saying... they just assumed I was complaining about it and thus wanted to block or get rid of SP3s which is not even close to what I was saying... I am saying it would be nice to have something like we have for 5*s but for every character and instead of the quick-time event we could have a move we dodge with Dexterity that way it is part of the gameplay and not a quick-time event and feels more skill based IMO).


    420sam wrote: »
    @chev327fox You need to be working on your baiting skills. With enough practice you could be a master baiter in no time. Might even be able to practice master baiting multiple times a day. ;)

    Trust me I am a professional master baiter. I am also pretty good at bating in game too... getting better all the time (but the AI seems to be more and more conservative about using Special).


    DNA3000 wrote: »
    chev327fox wrote: »
    You’d like the sp3 from the ai to be evadable, blockable, being able to parry it, just like sp1 & sp2. That way you’ll save units, won’t need to buy revives, hence it will never happen. There has to be some sort of penalty for letting the ai get to a sp3. And yes powergain is annoying, but there are ways to work around it.
    Same goes for baiting specials, can take some time before the ai takes the bait. Not every fight has to end in 15 seconds.

    I KNEW you did not read it :D

    No I want to save maybe 30-40% IF I can skill evade part of it. That's it (it should still be guaranteed damage and unblockable). Kind of like 5* champs quick-time event but better and for the whole game (and by better I mean by using Dexterity with a SP move I need to avoid instead of some silly 5* only quick-time event).

    I think you believe the 30% part is somehow significant. I can understand why, but it isn't. Some attacks like light and medium attacks follow a general rule for how much damage they do (typically, 25% and 40% of your attack, respectively). But the special attacks don't follow that kind of rule. The devs set the attack to whatever they feel is appropriate depending on a bunch of factors. Some champions' SP3 hit very hard: Storm for example. Some actually don't hit very hard at all. For example, Hyperion's SP3 doesn't intrinsically hit very hard at all. It only hits hard if he stacks fury first. The devs set the SP3 damage based in large part on how dangerous they want the champion to be if you don't power control them with power control abilities or baiting.

    You're trying to reduce the reliance on power control because you don't like it, by reducing the damage you take from SP3 when you don't do it right. But that's what the SP3 attack is there for. Asking for it to deal 30% less or 70% less or 10% less is asking fundamentally for the same thing: to reduce the need to power control by reducing the penalty for poor power control. Before anyone decides if 30% is a good number, you have to convince them that *any* change is appropriate. The damage SP3 does is in effect the devs saying "if you fail to power control, we want the champion to hit you this hard." Making 30% evadeable might just convince the devs to increase all SP3 attacks by 30%, and allow that extra 30% to be evadeable. I don't think you want that, but that's entirely compatible with your suggestion, because you aren't addressing the fundamental issue: why should SP3 *ever* hit for less than what the devs *intend* it to hit you for.

    5*s already have in essence what I am suggesting (just not as good IMO, thus my new idea)... so your entire last paragraph is you telling kabam they should not have done that for 5*s I assume (since there is a 20% reduction in dmg with 5*s on SP3... and if not why does your argument make me wrong and them right?)? I basically am just saying it would be nice to have the 5* idea but implemented across the entire game for all champs and in a much better way. Also i feel a special to be able to dexterity part of it instead of the quick-time event (that way it is flowing gameplay instead of the cutscene with quick-time event).

    Again it was just an idea... you have a very bad habit of taking these things far too seriously and too narrowly (you also have a bad habit of telling me what I am saying or thinking...).
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    This is so stupid, SP3 is meant to not be blocked and the ultimate attack (though not all champions are recommended to use it i.e. Symbiote Spider-man). SP3 is meant to not be blocked or evaded
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    chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
    edited January 2018
    NinjaFisto wrote: »
    This is so stupid, SP3 is meant to not be blocked and the ultimate attack (though not all champions are recommended to use it i.e. Symbiote Spider-man). SP3 is meant to not be blocked or evaded

    Add another to the pile of people who didn't bother to read it. I give up on people.

    Also I could not agree more... posting without reading is pretty stupid.
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    dkatryldkatryl Posts: 672 ★★★
    Stewman wrote: »
    I also heard Mortal Kombat was going to remove Fatalities from their games because it just isn't fair that you can't block them.

    I know this was meant to be snarky, but you actually pointed out my chief complaint with SP3's, and that their animations make them seem like they should be a coup de grace, much like MK's Fatalities.

    Problem is the way power gain works in this game, the AI could simply stand there, let you punch them in the face several times, and then they nuke you with an unavoidable attack, even though you were at 100% life.

    At that does seem a little silly.
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    GamerGamer Posts: 10,383 ★★★★★
    Not the Best ides one u agings a spidey and he evade yours SP3 and then u get in and kil u.
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    ESFESF Posts: 1,945 ★★★★★
    Actually, I feel the opposite.

    I have long felt that more attacks should be Unblockable, including for the AI.

    I don't know. I am sure it's just me and how I think, but I guess I think it's weird that Hawkeye and Black Widow can block bullets, or Punisher can block an Optic Blast.

    I think if a few more attacks were Unblockable, we would actually have more fun and better gameplay, for a few reasons:

    1. Characters who have enhanced armor/durability, like a Luke Cage, would therefore stand out -- should Hawkeye and Luke Cage really take even close to the same amount of damage from blocking? Personally, I don't think so. Shouldn't Armor Up be a little more effective? I would say yes.

    2. Skill-based gameplay would be enhanced because with a few more Unblockable attacks, each person would realize that evading and understanding the power-gain mechanics is part of the game. You have to think about how you are approaching the fights -- can you eat that L1? Should I be aggressive here, or bait? Should I push it to the L2 and try to bait that? All of those skills and thought processes really should be part of the game, in my opinion. If a person wants to just block and hit, they can -- that's a choice. But choices have consequences, you know?

    Again: Just my thoughts
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    DshuDshu Posts: 1,503 ★★★★
    Read what was posted and yes evading is a skill. Parry is a skill. So is baiting. Yes the champs can be more difficult to bait on certain events or days of events. This is definitely annoying and I don't think anyone enjoys baiting an opponent from one end of the screen to the other. The problem I see with your suggestion aside from the code that would have to be rewrote is that you want to trade one game mechanic (evade) for another (baiting) which would make the game simpler for people with certain champs ie Stark Spidey. As annoying as baiting and sometimes eating an L3 can be it is a critical penalty in the game. There are other ways around taking an L3. You can use power control or champs like Iceman or gwenpool who can eat the damage from a special 3 attack without dieing. This was the game designers way of giving you a way to avoid baiting. As far as the 5* mechanic for reducing special 3 damage. Well that is a pretty useless ability considering if your opponent is equal or less powerful than you it won't kill you. If they are more powerful like aq or aw bosses then you will die anyway. Not sure why you don't think guys are reading your post. You are asking for a way to avoid special 3 damage. They have given you multiple ways to avoid it. Not sure if you were playing when we could parry special attacks in general but it was removed to force guys to develop more skills in evasion with power control and baiting the special attack that is the easiest to evade.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,980 Guardian
    chev327fox wrote: »
    Again it was just an idea... you have a very bad habit of taking these things far too seriously and too narrowly (you also have a bad habit of telling me what I am saying or thinking...).

    I take every idea seriously until there's a specific reason not to because I assume people want to be taken seriously in general. As you seem to be indicating you don't want your ideas to be taken seriously, I will make a mental note to give them approximately the degree of seriousness everyone else currently is, which is to say, not at all.

    As to taking your ideas too narrowly or misinterpreting them, when everyone is misinterpreting your words in exactly the same way, you can choose to believe everyone else is wrong or you can consider your eloquence is questionable. Choosing the former, as you appear to be doing, is basically trying to own the only telephone on Gilligan's Island.
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    chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
    Dshu wrote: »
    Read what was posted and yes evading is a skill. Parry is a skill. So is baiting. Yes the champs can be more difficult to bait on certain events or days of events. This is definitely annoying and I don't think anyone enjoys baiting an opponent from one end of the screen to the other. The problem I see with your suggestion aside from the code that would have to be rewrote is that you want to trade one game mechanic (evade) for another (baiting) which would make the game simpler for people with certain champs ie Stark Spidey. As annoying as baiting and sometimes eating an L3 can be it is a critical penalty in the game. There are other ways around taking an L3. You can use power control or champs like Iceman or gwenpool who can eat the damage from a special 3 attack without dieing. This was the game designers way of giving you a way to avoid baiting. As far as the 5* mechanic for reducing special 3 damage. Well that is a pretty useless ability considering if your opponent is equal or less powerful than you it won't kill you. If they are more powerful like aq or aw bosses then you will die anyway. Not sure why you don't think guys are reading your post. You are asking for a way to avoid special 3 damage. They have given you multiple ways to avoid it. Not sure if you were playing when we could parry special attacks in general but it was removed to force guys to develop more skills in evasion with power control and baiting the special attack that is the easiest to evade.

    All great info and points. I appreciate the way you replied. the only thing I would say is the "this champ" type of points are not good since it relies on the luck of getting that champ but I do agree with the underlying thought/point.

    Also a few people above clearly did not read my post just based on the fact on what they replied to was not what I said.
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    chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
    edited January 2018
    DNA3000 wrote: »

    As to taking your ideas too narrowly or misinterpreting them, when everyone is misinterpreting your words in exactly the same way, you can choose to believe everyone else is wrong or you can consider your eloquence is questionable. Choosing the former, as you appear to be doing, is basically trying to own the only telephone on Gilligan's Island.

    Yes becasue when a climate scientist puts out work showing global warming we should believe the screaming less educated masses that there is no climate change and not the experts because more people are interpreting it that way. Yes... bulletproof logic. A world in which the correct answer is always the public interpretation (sadly we do live in that world somewhat but I refuse to submit myself to that flawed logic).

    Before someone says something (because i know they would :D )... i am not comparing myself to a scientist nor saying that I am an expert at anything, it is just an example to show just how flawed the logic that was suggested really is (spoiler alert... extremely flawed).
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,980 Guardian
    chev327fox wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »

    As to taking your ideas too narrowly or misinterpreting them, when everyone is misinterpreting your words in exactly the same way, you can choose to believe everyone else is wrong or you can consider your eloquence is questionable. Choosing the former, as you appear to be doing, is basically trying to own the only telephone on Gilligan's Island.

    Yes becasue when a climate scientist puts out work showing global warming we should believe the screaming less educated masses that there is no climate change and not the experts because more people are interpreting it that way. Yes... bulletproof logic. A world in which the correct answer is always the public interpretation (sadly we do live in that world somewhat but I refuse to submit myself to that flawed logic).

    Before someone says something (because i know they would :D )... i am not comparing myself to a scientist nor saying that I am an expert at anything, it is just an example to show just how flawed the logic that was suggested really is (spoiler alert... extremely flawed).

    You're incorrectly comparing facts with expression. If someone makes a statement of fact and others disagree with them, the majority is irrelevant. A statement is true or false regardless of how many people believe it.

    But when someone believes they are communicating one idea, and everyone else believes they are communicating a different idea, because communication conveys equal responsibility to the target to try to understand and the speaker to try to be understood, the majority does win. If everyone thinks they said something other than intended, then clearly the words they chose cannot possibly convey the right idea.
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    chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
    No it was a lose example just to make a point. Again... narrow thinking. Just go back to your thread and finish your arguments over there... I wont see any future posts of yours as I feel you are just a contrarian.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,980 Guardian
    chev327fox wrote: »
    No it was a lose example just to make a point. Again... narrow thinking. Just go back to your thread and finish your arguments over there... I wont see any future posts of yours as I feel you are just a contrarian.

    It was indeed a lose example. But if you feel that way, ignoring me is probably for the best, since your definition of contrarian appears to be "disagrees with you." I have a suspicion I'm going to be doing that more often than you're comfortable with. I have no problem with you not seeing those refutations.
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    chev327foxchev327fox Posts: 826 ★★
    edited January 2018
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    chev327fox wrote: »
    No it was a lose example just to make a point. Again... narrow thinking. Just go back to your thread and finish your arguments over there... I wont see any future posts of yours as I feel you are just a contrarian.

    It was indeed a lose example. But if you feel that way, ignoring me is probably for the best, since your definition of contrarian appears to be "disagrees with you." I have a suspicion I'm going to be doing that more often than you're comfortable with. I have no problem with you not seeing those refutations.

    Yes I am glad you told me that... I also am kept up at night imagining that 2nd graders would also disagree with me a lot too. I just cannot live with the idea that people with flawed logic will disagree with what I say... it's a real issue. Very uncomfortable.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,980 Guardian
    chev327fox wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    chev327fox wrote: »
    No it was a lose example just to make a point. Again... narrow thinking. Just go back to your thread and finish your arguments over there... I wont see any future posts of yours as I feel you are just a contrarian.

    It was indeed a lose example. But if you feel that way, ignoring me is probably for the best, since your definition of contrarian appears to be "disagrees with you." I have a suspicion I'm going to be doing that more often than you're comfortable with. I have no problem with you not seeing those refutations.

    Yes I am glad you told me that... I also am kept up at night imagining that 2nd graders would also disagree with me a lot too. I just cannot live with the idea that people with flawed logic will disagree with what I say... it's a real issue. Very uncomfortable.

    Pro-tip: saying you're going to ignore a poster or cease participation in a discussion and then failing to follow through on that claim is generally seen as a sign of insecurity.

    As this one has descended into you trying to jenga your way unsuccessfully into intellectual adequacy, its probably for the best that I set the proper example for you by giving your thoughts the level of seriousness they now deserve.
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    WildpantsWildpants Posts: 148
    Say your idea is implemented. Why would you ever want to push your opponents to SP3 if you are still taking unavoidable damage. Even if that damage is only 10% I'd still keep baiting and evading SP1 or SP2 in order to take 0 damage. So having partially avoidable SP3 is no different to me than unavoidable SP3. Also you are thinking about saving yourself from enemy's SP3 instead of thinking about destroying enemies with your SP3. I want it to be unavoidable when I use it.
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    MarzGrooveMarzGroove Posts: 903 ★★★
    Nope.
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    Nexus_UY_ScutiNexus_UY_Scuti Posts: 480 ★★
    Just assume that Kabam made eveveryone’s SP3 to be the same animation as Collector’s SP1.

    Go ahead, evade THAT.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,285 ★★★★★
    Lolol. OP just needs to get good in baiting specials.
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