Aw synergies update and further discussion.

We have recently received a huge update on the Aw defense synergies.
The short answer is yes. But this is not going to be a quick or easy fix. Aside from having to fix the issue that we're having with synergies not working, there is a bigger issue at hand that needs to be addressed as well. With new Unique synergies that supply enhanced abilities, there could be some unexpected surprises when you're fighting a Defender that you didn't know had a Synergy active.

You could be part way through a fight against Hulk (Ragnarok) when suddenly, his SMASH attack becomes Unblockable because he has a synergy with Thor (Ragnarok) that you didn't know was active. Now, we're not saying that this is a bad thing, but we want to give players the chance to be prepared for these kinds of things. We're currently exploring ways that we can do this.

So, yes, we are working on fixing this, but unfortunately, there is more to this issue than just what it seems like on the surface.

From what I can gather is Kabam wants to player to have a way to tell what synergies the defender will have active BEFORE going into the fight.

I don't personally think it is necessary to know exactly what is active, I like being prepared for all synergies, and then discovering which are and are not active as I go. Then, I can communicate that to my BG so they can better prepare for their fights.

Same with masteries. I could join a fight and tell who has Limber or Will Power and let my team know. Many synergies translate the same way like Dark Empowerment or Inhuman Royal Family.

I don't mind knowing ahead of time either, but I am very happy to finally have an update on the issue.
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Comments

  • RiegelRiegel Posts: 1,085
    edited April 3
    I agree, it will also make people have to read up on the champion. They will have to learn how the champions work as opposed to only having to learn how to block/evade their specials/heavies.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 2,823
    Let's not read too much into this yet. We're still not sure exactly what we'll be doing. This could mean that you'll know what synergies are active, or it might just be that there is a little icon that says that "This Champion has a Synergy Active", or it could be something that is totally different.

    We're nowhere near ready to discuss the specifics just yet, but we do have to look at it from the perspectives of The Attacker, The Defender, and from all experience levels as well.

    In arena I’ve seen a “inhuman royal family” little tag when I’ve gone in and fought Karnak, Medusa black bolt team. Isn’t that a solution for Aw? So you don’t know it before the fight starts, but you know it when you go into the fight.
  • RiegelRiegel Posts: 1,085
    edited April 3
    Let's not read too much into this yet. We're still not sure exactly what we'll be doing. This could mean that you'll know what synergies are active, or it might just be that there is a little icon that says that "This Champion has a Synergy Active", or it could be something that is totally different.

    We're nowhere near ready to discuss the specifics just yet, but we do have to look at it from the perspectives of The Attacker, The Defender, and from all experience levels as well.

    In arena I’ve seen a “inhuman royal family” little tag when I’ve gone in and fought Karnak, Medusa black bolt team. Isn’t that a solution for Aw? So you don’t know it before the fight starts, but you know it when you go into the fight.

    It could be. Seems like they want something, but they don't know what that something is.

    There are synergies that don't have the Inhuman Royal Family pop up.

    I want to keep this discussion open, so please understand everything is speculation. (Not dirrected at you Bitter, but just a general statement)
  • GbSarkarGbSarkar Posts: 1,075
    edited April 3
    Let's not read too much into this yet. We're still not sure exactly what we'll be doing. This could mean that you'll know what synergies are active, or it might just be that there is a little icon that says that "This Champion has a Synergy Active", or it could be something that is totally different.

    We're nowhere near ready to discuss the specifics just yet, but we do have to look at it from the perspectives of The Attacker, The Defender, and from all experience levels as well.

    In arena I’ve seen a “inhuman royal family” little tag when I’ve gone in and fought Karnak, Medusa black bolt team. Isn’t that a solution for Aw? So you don’t know it before the fight starts, but you know it when you go into the fight.

    They'll probably do something like forced to fight where pausing the game shows you a description of all buffs currently active on the bots. In case of MCoC, it'll show the active synergies and buffs. Although if they do it this way, they'd have to change how timers work in AW so that they get paused as the game is paused. I wouldn't want the timer to run out because I was busy reading 3-4 different synergies active on a champ (an extreme case, but very likely to happen in the future with the rate the game is expanding).

    Even then it wouldn't help much against hidden champs since we can't prepare for the synergies before the fight/joining attack, in this scenario. If my attacker doesn't counter any specific synergy the defender has, I'm screwed anyway and knowing the synergy won't make any difference
  • RiegelRiegel Posts: 1,085
    edited April 3
    Just realized that this could be hugely problematic, unless synergies were only displayed similarly to the Inhuman Royal Family synergy (during the start of the fight).

    If say synergies were to be displayed before the fight the synergies could reveal who the opponent is which would be bad for the defense.

    Obviously, from mikes comment:
    we do have to look at it from the perspectives of The Attacker, The Defender, and from all experience levels as well.

    It sounds like they are well aware of this.

  • RagamugginGunnerRagamugginGunner Posts: 1,067
    Let's not read too much into this yet. We're still not sure exactly what we'll be doing. This could mean that you'll know what synergies are active, or it might just be that there is a little icon that says that "This Champion has a Synergy Active", or it could be something that is totally different.

    We're nowhere near ready to discuss the specifics just yet, but we do have to look at it from the perspectives of The Attacker, The Defender, and from all experience levels as well.

    In arena I’ve seen a “inhuman royal family” little tag when I’ve gone in and fought Karnak, Medusa black bolt team. Isn’t that a solution for Aw? So you don’t know it before the fight starts, but you know it when you go into the fight.

    I just posted the same in the other thread. Seems like a logical and easy fix to the issue.
  • RiegelRiegel Posts: 1,085
    Let's not read too much into this yet. We're still not sure exactly what we'll be doing. This could mean that you'll know what synergies are active, or it might just be that there is a little icon that says that "This Champion has a Synergy Active", or it could be something that is totally different.

    We're nowhere near ready to discuss the specifics just yet, but we do have to look at it from the perspectives of The Attacker, The Defender, and from all experience levels as well.

    In arena I’ve seen a “inhuman royal family” little tag when I’ve gone in and fought Karnak, Medusa black bolt team. Isn’t that a solution for Aw? So you don’t know it before the fight starts, but you know it when you go into the fight.

    I just posted the same in the other thread. Seems like a logical and easy fix to the issue.

    Right I think if they just posted on screen the name of the unique synergy it would be enough.

    Non-unique synergies don't really change the way you play as drastically as unique ones do.
  • AmonthirAmonthir Posts: 613
    It does inform you as to who else may be on their defensive team though, which may or may not be a big deal as many of those special synergies have multiple possibilities. But not all do.
  • RiegelRiegel Posts: 1,085
    Amonthir wrote: »
    It does inform you as to who else may be on their defensive team though, which may or may not be a big deal as many of those special synergies have multiple possibilities. But not all do.

    Yeah, if you vs. a Karnak, and see the Inhuman Royal Family pop up then you can be sure that person has Medusa somewhere, but you have to communicate that to the guy who is about to go up vs. his cosmic champ. Also, that cosmic champ might be his Black Bolt instead.

    IDK I like it. Adds to the strategy and need to communicate.
  • MikeHockMikeHock Posts: 997
    Wow, this is ... laughable. Kabam should have thought of all this prior to releasing unique synergies into the game.
  • RiegelRiegel Posts: 1,085
    MikeHock wrote: »
    Wow, this is ... laughable. Kabam should have thought of all this prior to releasing unique synergies into the game.

    I think a lot of valuable champions with unique synergies have popped up. I'm much happier having them now than having to wait for them for something like this.

    I do think this could have been communicated to us much sooner, but better late than never I guess.
  • Blitzkilla420Blitzkilla420 Posts: 561
    edited April 3
    we just need a fix. please push your dev's and coders and testers more often
  • Tasty_Yum_YumsTasty_Yum_Yums Posts: 165
    Let's not read too much into this yet. We're still not sure exactly what we'll be doing. This could mean that you'll know what synergies are active, or it might just be that there is a little icon that says that "This Champion has a Synergy Active", or it could be something that is totally different.

    We're nowhere near ready to discuss the specifics just yet, but we do have to look at it from the perspectives of The Attacker, The Defender, and from all experience levels as well.

    Nowhere near ready to discuss the specifics... so you’re not even close for this update...???
  • PolderpommiePolderpommie Posts: 68
    The problem with synergies in aw defence was always a communication problem.
    Now we have a response, let’s hope this is the start of a solid comms approach on the subject. As long as we know what’s going on and when we can expect stuff to happen, we can adjust. Just keep keeping us in the loop, basically.
  • RiegelRiegel Posts: 1,085
    The problem with synergies in aw defence was always a communication problem.
    Now we have a response, let’s hope this is the start of a solid comms approach on the subject. As long as we know what’s going on and when we can expect stuff to happen, we can adjust. Just keep keeping us in the loop, basically.

    100% agree.
  • ZzyzxGuyZzyzxGuy Posts: 1,292
    edited April 4
    My original thought was why node just show the active synergies when you click the node? But, then I realized this would give away the champ.

    Why not just tag a node with "This champion is empowered by a unique synergy." I don't see any reason to tag champs with regular synergies as they just boost stats and don't give champs unique advantages.

    Sure... it COULD give away the champ, but there are enough champs with unique synergies, both old and new, to keep it a pretty good guessing game.

    Besides, at the current state of AW, I can pretty much guess the defender with an 80% accuracy.

    Edit: and if you're concerned with giving away the champ, then you also need to remove the ability of the attacker to see persistent charges.
  • Blitzkilla420Blitzkilla420 Posts: 561
    Let's not read too much into this yet. We're still not sure exactly what we'll be doing. This could mean that you'll know what synergies are active, or it might just be that there is a little icon that says that "This Champion has a Synergy Active", or it could be something that is totally different.

    We're nowhere near ready to discuss the specifics just yet, but we do have to look at it from the perspectives of The Attacker, The Defender, and from all experience levels as well.

    a little icon to show a synergy is active should suffice without having to do a huge overhaul.

    also, can we expect on update like this on the ever-present evade, dex, blocks dropping and controls bug still in this game?

    this game would be so much better of these things were fixed right away mr.sir
  • EbbtideEbbtide Posts: 182
    I'm confused by the response.

    As an example, Doctor Octopus' Synergy with Ant-Man allows Ant-Man to gain a Thorns like bonus for his Glancing when attacked. This isn't a practical Synergy for players, as their goal is to avoid being attacked, but this obviously would be useful on defense. So the Unique Synergy was crafted, implemented, but then not anticipated? It's being presented like Unique Synergies were rushed.

    Similarly, some Unique Synergies have no practical use. Electro's Synergy with Green Goblin is so specific, requiring Electro to take an attack and an uncommon debuff to gain a minor benefit.

    Compare that to something like Blade's Synergy with Ghost Rider or Spider-Man (Stark Enhanced), where the benefits to both champions are superior and make them far more powerful, and you can see how unbalanced the design is. Along with that Synergy of the 'Holy Trinity' as those 3 are called by some in the community, and you have a greater problem for defenders.

    The redesign to Alliance War encourages points for Diversity, yet ideal Diversity would be using champions that have great Unique Synergies that make them more of a challenge to the attackers. We're now being told that seems unfair to players being ambushed by surprise synergy effects. But that's the point. It's the same as having hidden attackers, or having something like Coldsnap with Iceman, or Limbo with Magik. The players are caught off guard by surprise damage, or they brought the wrong fighter for a certain fight, expecting someone else. That's the whole point of players designing a defense.

    I just don't understand how it's fair that Defenders lose their Synergies in that mode, because something wasn't conceptualized correctly, yet Attackers kept their overpowered Synergies. Blade+Ghost Rider+Stark Spider-Man allows Blade to rip through Villains and Mystics (or worse Villains who are Mystics), Ghost Rider to place Judgments easily on defenders, and allows Spider-Man early access to 3 Taunts/Power Forces and/or greater attack bonuses for fights. That doesn't seem balanced.

    I'm in no way looking forward to surprises due to Synergies, but I also just don't see how it's fair that Defenders are crippled by losing out on Synergies, that would in effect create more Diversity, but Attackers are allowed to keep their overpowered Synergies that players placing defense equally cannot anticipate.
  • sbb75sbb75 Posts: 190
    I think everyone can agree Kabam didn't think out the unique synergies for AW. That doesn't mean just turning on all synergies is the right solution. I am pretty sure the outcome will be a lot more resources used and still 100% explored.
    There is a difference between using skill to overcome difficulty vs overcoming BS fights. Using the In-Human Royaln Family example... Is there skill placing a 5* r4 Medusa as Boss or immune mini with these synergies Medusa/Bolt/Karnak/Ronan/KK. So for 80% of.the fight she has living stands, auto block and Parry. 6.fury at 90% longer duration. Got test it on WS....
    I know the answer,.. I should bring the right champ. I better buy some 5* features and hope for the new buffed Sentry...

    We all know they keep releasing Garbage on top of Garbage and more bugs than fixes.... So Why encourage them to rush to this? Come on and think about it... If kabam is putting the brakes on something that will make us use more resources than in must be an epic disaster.

    I had the time to type this in between timing out of AQ.
  • KpatrixKpatrix Posts: 729
    This should have been worked on when defenders were visible and players could see the other champs and know synergies were active. When war was first announced we were told synergies worked. I am one of many who built my defense based on working synergy, especially when diversity popped up. You guys never made an in game announcement that they weren't working, basically hiding that info from anyone who doesn't frequent the forums. This needs to be announced in game asap as I've been saying for months.

    I feel like we've been cheated out of this for a long time. If it had been addressed and implemented before seasons started we would have been more prepared.

    Bottom line is they need to be implemented as per the original war posting when it was in beta. Get this fixed, **** the torpedoes just do it, if it proves to be to much then implement something else, do it during the break between seasons, asap, and gather your data. This is ridiculous
  • Tropical_ChrisTropical_Chris Posts: 137
    The short answer is yes. But this is not going to be a quick or easy fix. Aside from having to fix the issue that we're having with synergies not working, there is a bigger issue at hand that needs to be addressed as well. With new Unique synergies that supply enhanced abilities, there could be some unexpected surprises when you're fighting a Defender that you didn't know had a Synergy active.

    You could be part way through a fight against Hulk (Ragnarok) when suddenly, his SMASH attack becomes Unblockable because he has a synergy with Thor (Ragnarok) that you didn't know was active. Now, we're not saying that this is a bad thing, but we want to give players the chance to be prepared for these kinds of things. We're currently exploring ways that we can do this.

    So, yes, we are working on fixing this, but unfortunately, there is more to this issue than just what it seems like on the surface.

    This actually clears a lot for me now :smile: ... as it is, I dont think fixing the synergy bug in AW defense should be a tough problem. 2 weeks is more than enough for them to do this. Heck, it may even be just one day worth of work. I always assumed that it was just a prioritisation issue.

    But this statement of @Kabam Miike makes a lot of sense to me.

    With the number of whiners rising in the game, they need to be anticipate the amount of backlash or support tickets they will get from the community because of this. And they need to be proactive in addressing that potential issue, even before it becomes an issue.

    It may not even be a game change. It may be a game announcement in the forum and in your in game mail emphasizing on that. But honestly, how many people actually read? :smiley: I've seen top players with a decent amount of youtube following take on new champs without reading the champ description and gets surprised when it becomes too difficult :smile:

    If that is the case, @Kabam Miike , maybe consider having the ability to play videos on the game itself (actual videos and not moving comic strips). That way, in your in game announcement, you can present both video and text. Personally, I probably wont watch the video (i like text over video because i read way faster than I watch videos). But most people would rather consume video over text though :wink:
  • WolfeWolfe Posts: 272
    edited April 4
    Interesting that you guys can actuallly slam Miike for making a really valid point and something that really needs to be thought thru properly rather than just clicking a button and go “let’s do defense synergy!”.

    I bet if Kabam were to open up defensive synergy right now, we gonna get countless threads of people demanding for compensation and RDTs because they are not aware Hulk Ragnarok has a synergy with Thor Ragnarok or Killmonger has a synergy with BPCW.

    I agree wholeheartedly this needs to be thought through. Take as much time as you need and give us something that is fair to all players when you’re done thinking it thru Kabam.
  • EvilEmpireEvilEmpire Posts: 454
    Wolfe wrote: »
    Interesting that you guys can actuallly slam Miike for making a really valid point and something that really needs to be thought thru properly rather than just clicking a button and go “let’s do defense synergy!”.

    I bet if Kabam were to open up defensive synergy right now, we gonna get countless threads of people demanding for compensation and RDTs because they are not aware Hulk Ragnarok has a synergy with Thor Ragnarok or Killmonger has a synergy with BPCW.

    I agree wholeheartedly this needs to be thought through. Take as much time as you need and give us something that is fair to all players when you’re done thinking it thru Kabam.

    Guys are being critical of this because these AWD geared synergies have been around for a long time and they are suddenly just now realizing the potential repercussions. Not sure why but at this stage of the game we would like to expect better.
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