AW Season 5 - take away „Defenders remaining“

I urge to take away the „defenders remaining“ section from the AW point system as it does invite alliances to engage in collusion, having deals to leave up a lot of nodes to help the winning alliance get extra points when alone their death count is too high to give them a top spot. This behavior is being observed repeatedly now. Also it should not be able for a master alliance to match a plat3 or gold alliance. Unfortunately this also is still possible. Which adds to the fact that it’s not the highest skill deciding wars, but often just the fact to match much weaker alliances or as mentioned engage in deals.
Therefore the only way to take away this possibility to tweak AW points is to take away the „defenders remaining“ part of the point system. And let purely skill decide the AW ranking.

Comments

shortpker

How you know it's collusion?

MirageNoir

If an ally always clears maps and „suddenly“ leaves 20+ nodes open....it’s nothing one can prove, but also it’s quite obvious. Anyways. The fact that the possibility to collusion exists thru this „defenders remaining“ is reason enough to take it away

shortpker

Well I know of one alliance that is tanking during season and several alliances got the luxury of a free war with defenders left up. Doesn't make it collusion though.

MirageNoir

Don’t know why you’re so hung up on the collusion part if you have done nothing wrong....as i said earlier „Defenders remaining“ is the reason tanking during season deters the picture of a fair alliances war. If its collusion or not doesn’t matter. Tanking or free wars has nothing to do with skill and it’s impact should be removed from the AW point system. Which you can by taking away „defenders remaining“.

Demonzfyre

MirageNoir wrote: »

Don’t know why you’re so hung up on the collusion part if you have done nothing wrong....as i said earlier „Defenders remaining“ is the reason tanking during season deters the picture of a fair alliances war. If its collusion or not doesn’t matter. Tanking or free wars has nothing to do with skill and it’s impact should be removed from the AW point system. Which you can by taking away „defenders remaining“.

Not really. Theres all kinds of ways to tank. Placing 2 or 3*'s, not killing the bosses, dying on purpose, etc... Taking away defenders remaining will not solve the tanking strategy.

Argygufdetlop

Hello,

I am an officer in the alliance being accused, erroneously, of collusion. We have never done that. Yes, we have had lucky match ups, but only in the sense that some of our opponents have not been willing to spend what it takes to clear our defense — it’s not as if they didn’t try, though, or that there was any plot. It is not our fault that we got matched with lower alliances. We have never colluded with another alliance to tank. We have never piloted. Our reputation is sterling, and I will not have it attacked recklessly.

(I actually agree with you about defenders remaining).

We won’t stay this lucky and we likely won’t stay #1. But don’t hurl false accusations, please. It says more about you than it does about us.

MirageNoir

Argygufdetlop wrote: »

Hello,

I am an officer in the alliance being accused, erroneously, of collusion. We have never done that. Yes, we have had lucky match ups, but only in the sense that some of our opponents have not been willing to spend what it takes to clear our defense — it’s not as if they didn’t try, though, or that there was any plot. It is not our fault that we got matched with lower alliances. We have never colluded with another alliance to tank. We have never piloted. Our reputation is sterling, and I will not have it attacked recklessly.

(I actually agree with you about defenders remaining).

We won’t stay this lucky and we likely won’t stay #1. But don’t hurl false accusations, please. It says more about you than it does about us.

I would just like to point out that I have not accused anyone. Nor have I called out anyone. If you feel I was talking to you then it’s nothing I have intentionally referred to. And I don’t say that there is tanking which is not always the fault of the winning alliance. I only would like to change the point system so that tanking, if it’s not attacking or just placing 2*/3* will not lead to excessive bonus points via „defenders remaining“. And as I read from your post you agree. So let’s together try to change that.

PaytoPlay

So... If all 10 members fight through one single path ignoring all nodes and KO the AW boss, they deserve to win compare to an opposing alliance who strategize, plan their defensive placement carefully and get through all the nodes but can't finish the boss at the end? AW is both skill based and team work... I am actually not taking side on this ..... But there's pros and cons either way.

MirageNoir

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Don’t know why you’re so hung up on the collusion part if you have done nothing wrong....as i said earlier „Defenders remaining“ is the reason tanking during season deters the picture of a fair alliances war. If its collusion or not doesn’t matter. Tanking or free wars has nothing to do with skill and it’s impact should be removed from the AW point system. Which you can by taking away „defenders remaining“.

Not really. Theres all kinds of ways to tank. Placing 2 or 3*'s, not killing the bosses, dying on purpose, etc... Taking away defenders remaining will not solve the tanking strategy.

Tanking strategy As you point out yourself „only“ gives excessive extra points if nodes are being left untouched. If they place 2*/3* against a top alliance, then they maybe have 0 deaths instead of 5-10, which point wise hardly makes a difference. Leaving 10 defenders untouched is a much bigger extra point source. So don’t agree, tanking strategy „only“ adds extra points because of „defenders remaining“.

MirageNoir

PaytoPlay wrote: »

So... If all 10 members fight through one single path ignoring all nodes and KO the AW boss, they deserve to win compare to an opposing alliance who strategize, plan their defensive placement carefully and get through all the nodes but can't finish the boss at the end? AW is both skill based and team work... I am actually not taking side on this ..... But there's pros and cons either way.

I don’t know what you’re talking about as of course they would lose as they wouldn’t get the attack bonus points for defeating 150 defenders, neither would they get exploration points. If you take away „defenders remaining“ those point sources still count as they are the defining source of skill.

Demonzfyre

MirageNoir wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Don’t know why you’re so hung up on the collusion part if you have done nothing wrong....as i said earlier „Defenders remaining“ is the reason tanking during season deters the picture of a fair alliances war. If its collusion or not doesn’t matter. Tanking or free wars has nothing to do with skill and it’s impact should be removed from the AW point system. Which you can by taking away „defenders remaining“.

Not really. Theres all kinds of ways to tank. Placing 2 or 3*'s, not killing the bosses, dying on purpose, etc... Taking away defenders remaining will not solve the tanking strategy.

Tanking strategy As you point out yourself „only“ gives excessive extra points if nodes are being left untouched. If they place 2*/3* against a top alliance, then they maybe have 0 deaths instead of 5-10, which point wise hardly makes a difference. Leaving 10 defenders untouched is a much bigger extra point source. So don’t agree, tanking strategy „only“ adds extra points because of „defenders remaining“.

You are still wrong. Defenders remaining doesn't give that many points compare to leaving a boss up. Not taking the boss down is the best way then theres tanking attack bonuses. You are really just complaining to complain at this point. You dont know what went on, on the other side. You are just guessing. Tanking during off season isnt against the rules either. The tanking alliance takes all the risk. Get over it.

PaytoPlay

MirageNoir wrote: »

PaytoPlay wrote: »

So... If all 10 members fight through one single path ignoring all nodes and KO the AW boss, they deserve to win compare to an opposing alliance who strategize, plan their defensive placement carefully and get through all the nodes but can't finish the boss at the end? AW is both skill based and team work... I am actually not taking side on this ..... But there's pros and cons either way.

I don’t know what you’re talking about as of course they would lose as they wouldn’t get the attack bonus points for defeating 150 defenders, neither would they get exploration points. If you take away „defenders remaining“ those point sources still count as they are the defining source of skill.

Good point. I am sold.

DTMelodicMetal

If comments about colluding and sandbagging adhere to forum rules and still get removed, does that much such tactics are condoned?

MirageNoir

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Don’t know why you’re so hung up on the collusion part if you have done nothing wrong....as i said earlier „Defenders remaining“ is the reason tanking during season deters the picture of a fair alliances war. If its collusion or not doesn’t matter. Tanking or free wars has nothing to do with skill and it’s impact should be removed from the AW point system. Which you can by taking away „defenders remaining“.

Not really. Theres all kinds of ways to tank. Placing 2 or 3*'s, not killing the bosses, dying on purpose, etc... Taking away defenders remaining will not solve the tanking strategy.

Tanking strategy As you point out yourself „only“ gives excessive extra points if nodes are being left untouched. If they place 2*/3* against a top alliance, then they maybe have 0 deaths instead of 5-10, which point wise hardly makes a difference. Leaving 10 defenders untouched is a much bigger extra point source. So don’t agree, tanking strategy „only“ adds extra points because of „defenders remaining“.

You are still wrong. Defenders remaining doesn't give that many points compare to leaving a boss up. Not taking the boss down is the best way then theres tanking attack bonuses. You are really just complaining to complain at this point. You dont know what went on, on the other side. You are just guessing. Tanking during off season isnt against the rules either. The tanking alliance takes all the risk. Get over it.

I am talking points that the winning alliance gets „more“ than what they would usually get. If the losing alliance doesn’t take a boss down it gives 0 extra points for the winning alliance. You got the math wrong dude. Tanking hurts the losing alliance. The only reason why tanking benefits the winning alliance is due to „defenders remaining“. You should know the system before you start argumenting.

Rektor

It’s funny because when they keep flagging you, all they’re doing is making sure a mod reads all your posts, which is exactly what you want.

Good job, forum reporting guy. Thanks for the assistance.

Demonzfyre

MirageNoir wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Don’t know why you’re so hung up on the collusion part if you have done nothing wrong....as i said earlier „Defenders remaining“ is the reason tanking during season deters the picture of a fair alliances war. If its collusion or not doesn’t matter. Tanking or free wars has nothing to do with skill and it’s impact should be removed from the AW point system. Which you can by taking away „defenders remaining“.

Not really. Theres all kinds of ways to tank. Placing 2 or 3*'s, not killing the bosses, dying on purpose, etc... Taking away defenders remaining will not solve the tanking strategy.

Tanking strategy As you point out yourself „only“ gives excessive extra points if nodes are being left untouched. If they place 2*/3* against a top alliance, then they maybe have 0 deaths instead of 5-10, which point wise hardly makes a difference. Leaving 10 defenders untouched is a much bigger extra point source. So don’t agree, tanking strategy „only“ adds extra points because of „defenders remaining“.

You are still wrong. Defenders remaining doesn't give that many points compare to leaving a boss up. Not taking the boss down is the best way then theres tanking attack bonuses. You are really just complaining to complain at this point. You dont know what went on, on the other side. You are just guessing. Tanking during off season isnt against the rules either. The tanking alliance takes all the risk. Get over it.

I am talking points that the winning alliance gets „more“ than what they would usually get. If the losing alliance doesn’t take a boss down it gives 0 extra points for the winning alliance. You got the math wrong dude. Tanking hurts the losing alliance. The only reason why tanking benefits the winning alliance is due to „defenders remaining“. You should know the system before you start argumenting.

No, you should have a clear, well thought out post before making a thread. You talk about collusion and tanking and tanking all in the first few posts.
Do you have proof of alliances doing this?
If you leave 20 nodes up, you only give up 5000 points. But you lose points for attack bonus and and exploration. I fail to see the big impact you seem to think is happening.

Bruce12342

@MirageNoir I always come across your team in deathmatches for arena. I hate you lol

I do agree with you about the difficulty of this... but how could they fix this? Just remove it entirely?

DTMelodicMetal

Bruce12342 wrote: »

@MirageNoir I always come across your team in deathmatches for arena. I hate you lol

I do agree with you about the difficulty of this... but how could they fix this? Just remove it entirely?

Perhaps add point penalties for leaving nodes up in tier 1 AW? From what other players have said tier 1 AW alliances have no problem exploring AW maps. If there's truth to that subtracting points from tier 1 AW alliances for leaving nodes up could possibly help reduce collusion while rarely penalizing alliances who don't engage in collusion.

Rektor

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Don’t know why you’re so hung up on the collusion part if you have done nothing wrong....as i said earlier „Defenders remaining“ is the reason tanking during season deters the picture of a fair alliances war. If its collusion or not doesn’t matter. Tanking or free wars has nothing to do with skill and it’s impact should be removed from the AW point system. Which you can by taking away „defenders remaining“.

Not really. Theres all kinds of ways to tank. Placing 2 or 3*'s, not killing the bosses, dying on purpose, etc... Taking away defenders remaining will not solve the tanking strategy.

Tanking strategy As you point out yourself „only“ gives excessive extra points if nodes are being left untouched. If they place 2*/3* against a top alliance, then they maybe have 0 deaths instead of 5-10, which point wise hardly makes a difference. Leaving 10 defenders untouched is a much bigger extra point source. So don’t agree, tanking strategy „only“ adds extra points because of „defenders remaining“.

You are still wrong. Defenders remaining doesn't give that many points compare to leaving a boss up. Not taking the boss down is the best way then theres tanking attack bonuses. You are really just complaining to complain at this point. You dont know what went on, on the other side. You are just guessing. Tanking during off season isnt against the rules either. The tanking alliance takes all the risk. Get over it.

I am talking points that the winning alliance gets „more“ than what they would usually get. If the losing alliance doesn’t take a boss down it gives 0 extra points for the winning alliance. You got the math wrong dude. Tanking hurts the losing alliance. The only reason why tanking benefits the winning alliance is due to „defenders remaining“. You should know the system before you start argumenting.

No, you should have a clear, well thought out post before making a thread. You talk about collusion and tanking and tanking all in the first few posts.
Do you have proof of alliances doing this?
If you leave 20 nodes up, you only give up 5000 points. But you lose points for attack bonus and and exploration. I fail to see the big impact you seem to think is happening.

If you agree to lose by leaving defenders up then obviously maximizing your points isn’t that important.

Although as we saw in the final war of last season, it is actually possible to leave dozens of defenders up while still clearing the boss, which greatly minimizes your points lost. And as we saw after that war, such behavior is allowed.

Acanthus

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Do you have proof of alliances doing this?
If you leave 20 nodes up, you only give up 5000 points. But you lose points for attack bonus and and exploration. I fail to see the big impact you seem to think is happening.

Have you looked at the season leaderboard?

klobberintyme

MirageNoir wrote: »

I urge to take away the „defenders remaining“ section from the AW point system as it does invite alliances to engage in collusion, having deals to leave up a lot of nodes to help the winning alliance get extra points when alone their death count is too high to give them a top spot. This behavior is being observed repeatedly now. Also it should not be able for a master alliance to match a plat3 or gold alliance. Unfortunately this also is still possible. Which adds to the fact that it’s not the highest skill deciding wars, but often just the fact to match much weaker alliances or as mentioned engage in deals.
Therefore the only way to take away this possibility to tweak AW points is to take away the „defenders remaining“ part of the point system. And let purely skill decide the AW ranking.

"Skill" is auto-assigning randomized 2 star champs as attackers for every participant, against an identically difficult defense of the game's choice, and nulling out masteries and potion/revive use. Like a Danger Room/AQ mashup, except you're handed an attack team of ant-man, IP and she-hulk. Dragging your 2 5/65s and 6r2 in for attack isn't "skill," since we all know you can pay for those.
Gamesmanship is part of every game. Whining on the boards to change the rules is also gamesmanship, FYI.

Demonzfyre

Acanthus wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Do you have proof of alliances doing this?
If you leave 20 nodes up, you only give up 5000 points. But you lose points for attack bonus and and exploration. I fail to see the big impact you seem to think is happening.

Have you looked at the season leaderboard?

So everyone plat 3 and above are colluding to leave up defenders? Do They have a secret chat room on Line to run all this collusion? Do we get cool decoder rings to help collude? Whats the password? I bet it's "ilovemytinfoilhat". Thats what it is isn't it?
Do you have proof that all these alliances are doing this?

Acanthus

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Acanthus wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Do you have proof of alliances doing this?
If you leave 20 nodes up, you only give up 5000 points. But you lose points for attack bonus and and exploration. I fail to see the big impact you seem to think is happening.

Have you looked at the season leaderboard?

So everyone plat 3 and above are colluding to leave up defenders? Do They have a secret chat room on Line to run all this collusion? Do we get cool decoder rings to help collude? Whats the password? I bet it's "ilovemytinfoilhat". Thats what it is isn't it?
Do you have proof that all these alliances are doing this?

So you haven't. Got it

Cause if you had you'd see that the top 7 alliances are all 4-0 so far but the #1 place is 160k points ahead of #7. Purely because of defenders remaining.

I also know that I lost my season ranking last season because the alliance we were ahead of convieniently had their opponents leave 30 nodes up for the last war, so they passed us.

Bus yes, tinfoil hat

Demonzfyre

Acanthus wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Acanthus wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Do you have proof of alliances doing this?
If you leave 20 nodes up, you only give up 5000 points. But you lose points for attack bonus and and exploration. I fail to see the big impact you seem to think is happening.

Have you looked at the season leaderboard?

So everyone plat 3 and above are colluding to leave up defenders? Do They have a secret chat room on Line to run all this collusion? Do we get cool decoder rings to help collude? Whats the password? I bet it's "ilovemytinfoilhat". Thats what it is isn't it?
Do you have proof that all these alliances are doing this?

So you haven't. Got it

Cause if you had you'd see that the top 7 alliances are all 4-0 so far but the #1 place is 160k points ahead of #7. Purely because of defenders remaining.

I also know that I lost my season ranking last season because the alliance we were ahead of convieniently had their opponents leave 30 nodes up for the last war, so they passed us.

Bus yes, tinfoil hat

How do you know? Are you involved in each of their wars? You've seen videos or unedited screenshots of each teams final numbers? Someone from any of those alliances just willing gave you all the details and proof this is whats happening?

Gabbros

.........
Seen last season top ally scores? Some matched vs plat3 gold allies and got quite a lot of defender remaining points. This gave them such a huge lead and an advantage vs others that winning through skill had way less to do with why they ranked higher. Aside skills, it becomes impossible to win by fair competition because these allies who are “repetaedly lucked out” have such a huge lead that there cannot be an actual head to head competition.

I have seen certain top allies repeatedly be able to match vs way weaker unfair matchups. The collusion suspicion part seems to be the case because i have even seen plat1allly leaving quite a bit of exploration instead of 100% which is usually/always the case during the season.

One defendee remaining matchup can be a luck, but when i see multiple times...cough cough...seriously?

Moreover, Kabam Mike stated that they didnt like peeps leaving nodes/lanes up which is why they added defenser remaining in the past. But, in my opinion, id like to say that it is strategy and there was nothing wrong with skipping lanes. Skipping nodes alrdy penalizes u with lower exploration points. Get rid of defender remaining points and stop certain alliances from abusing the system, YET AGAIN.

Kabam, I am quite frustrated that you guys reward these alliances even after evident patterns.

Demonzfyre

Gabbros wrote: »

.........
Seen last season top ally scores? Some matched vs plat3 gold allies and got quite a lot of defender remaining points. This gave them such a huge lead and an advantage vs others that winning through skill had way less to do with why they ranked higher.

I have seen certain top allies repeatedly being able to match vs way weaker unfair matchups. The collusion suspicion part seems to be case because i have even seen plat1allly leaving quite a bit if exploration instead of 100% which is usually/always the case during the season.

One defendee remaining matchup can be a luck, but when i see multiple times...cough cough...seriously?

Do you have any shred of evidence that defenders remaining was the reason for different amounts of points?

MirageNoir

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

Don’t know why you’re so hung up on the collusion part if you have done nothing wrong....as i said earlier „Defenders remaining“ is the reason tanking during season deters the picture of a fair alliances war. If its collusion or not doesn’t matter. Tanking or free wars has nothing to do with skill and it’s impact should be removed from the AW point system. Which you can by taking away „defenders remaining“.

Not really. Theres all kinds of ways to tank. Placing 2 or 3*'s, not killing the bosses, dying on purpose, etc... Taking away defenders remaining will not solve the tanking strategy.

Tanking strategy As you point out yourself „only“ gives excessive extra points if nodes are being left untouched. If they place 2*/3* against a top alliance, then they maybe have 0 deaths instead of 5-10, which point wise hardly makes a difference. Leaving 10 defenders untouched is a much bigger extra point source. So don’t agree, tanking strategy „only“ adds extra points because of „defenders remaining“.

You are still wrong. Defenders remaining doesn't give that many points compare to leaving a boss up. Not taking the boss down is the best way then theres tanking attack bonuses. You are really just complaining to complain at this point. You dont know what went on, on the other side. You are just guessing. Tanking during off season isnt against the rules either. The tanking alliance takes all the risk. Get over it.

I am talking points that the winning alliance gets „more“ than what they would usually get. If the losing alliance doesn’t take a boss down it gives 0 extra points for the winning alliance. You got the math wrong dude. Tanking hurts the losing alliance. The only reason why tanking benefits the winning alliance is due to „defenders remaining“. You should know the system before you start argumenting.

No, you should have a clear, well thought out post before making a thread. You talk about collusion and tanking and tanking all in the first few posts.
Do you have proof of alliances doing this?
If you leave 20 nodes up, you only give up 5000 points. But you lose points for attack bonus and and exploration. I fail to see the big impact you seem to think is happening.

Because you don’t understand the war point system. And my post is clear as it’s talking about „defenders remaining“ part of Aw point system. Read the headline. All I am saying is that this item is the only reason giving alliances an „incentive for collusion“, which I also said is difficult to prove, yet the risk exists, and that tanking actually benefits the winning alliance extra bonus points which it shouldn’t. It’s ok tanking hurts a losing alliance but it should not on top reward a winning alliance. You on the other hand don’t understand how the Aw point system works

MirageNoir

Bruce12342 wrote: »

@MirageNoir I always come across your team in deathmatches for arena. I hate you lol

I do agree with you about the difficulty of this... but how could they fix this? Just remove it entirely?

Yes exactly. Remove it. If an alliance cannot clear a map they anyways get less points due to exploration and attack bonus. So why on top give the other alliance an additional bonus for that? Rather give the losing alliance the males which exists already. No change in outcome. The ally not fully exploring will lose.

MirageNoir

klobberintyme wrote: »

MirageNoir wrote: »

I urge to take away the „defenders remaining“ section from the AW point system as it does invite alliances to engage in collusion, having deals to leave up a lot of nodes to help the winning alliance get extra points when alone their death count is too high to give them a top spot. This behavior is being observed repeatedly now. Also it should not be able for a master alliance to match a plat3 or gold alliance. Unfortunately this also is still possible. Which adds to the fact that it’s not the highest skill deciding wars, but often just the fact to match much weaker alliances or as mentioned engage in deals.
Therefore the only way to take away this possibility to tweak AW points is to take away the „defenders remaining“ part of the point system. And let purely skill decide the AW ranking.

"Skill" is auto-assigning randomized 2 star champs as attackers for every participant, against an identically difficult defense of the game's choice, and nulling out masteries and potion/revive use. Like a Danger Room/AQ mashup, except you're handed an attack team of ant-man, IP and she-hulk. Dragging your 2 5/65s and 6r2 in for attack isn't "skill," since we all know you can pay for those.
Gamesmanship is part of every game. Whining on the boards to change the rules is also gamesmanship, FYI.

Generally like the post and yes with exactly equal teams it’s the ultimate skill only proof, yet if you look at alliances within the brackets (eg master), that’s pretty much it. Almost identical def and off teams. Due to diversity, which I fully support, it’s less possible for whales and wallets to put 10x Korg and IMIW etc so defense teams all pretty much look alike. So at the end of the day, reality is not so far from your equal team approach. And it’s because someone was „whining“ as you say that the system is already fairer than it used to be, so skill was weighed more than wallet. So you can complain about whining as much as you want, if you want your vision of less wallet impact, only this whining gets sth done.

Spera

It is there to reward good placement and encourage ranking up purely defensive champs 😌