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Rhulk Incinerate immune at 10 charge?

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    Marri_2Marri_2 Posts: 577 ★★★
    edited October 2019
    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig because the way it is currently worded, it actually is 100% resistance STOP. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3 in the future, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
  • Options
    DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,038 ★★★★★
    edited October 2019
    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    It does say it in his Sig
    My Sig 62 Rhulk is 11.72% resistant for each charge.

  • Options
    Marri_2Marri_2 Posts: 577 ★★★
    edited October 2019
    Demonzfyre said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    It does say it in his Sig
    My Sig 62 Rhulk is 11.72% resistant for each charge.

    Yes, so at 10 charges he is over 100% resistant. That still doesn't tell me how much he can resist. The % means nothing unless we know what absolute number that % represents. The way it is worded now implies that he can be fully resistant to any incinerate damage, regardless of how much it is.

    Not debating the math here, but the language. Again, I understand how it works, but that's not how it's described. Especially because the physical resistance ís expressed in an absolute number, it gives off that impression of full resistance for that incinerate.

    Immune in this game means a debuff can't be placed, which is not applicable here because the damage emanates from the opponent.
  • Options
    DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,038 ★★★★★
    edited October 2019
    Marri_2 said:

    Demonzfyre said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    It does say it in his Sig
    My Sig 62 Rhulk is 11.72% resistant for each charge.

    Yes, so at 10 charges he is over 100% resistant. That still doesn't tell me how much he can resist. The % means nothing unless we know what absolute number that % represents. The way it is worded now implies that he can be fully resistant to any incinerate damage, regardless of how much it is.

    Not debating the math here, but the language. Again, I understand how it works, but that's not how it's described. Especially because the physical resistance ís expressed in an absolute number, it gives off that impression of full resistance for that incinerate.

    Immune in this game means a debuff can't be placed, which is not applicable here because the damage emanates from the opponent.
    According to https://auntm.ai/champions/hulk_red/tier/6 a 6* rank 2 is 20% resistant at sig 200.

  • Options
    DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,038 ★★★★★
    edited October 2019
    Marri_2 said:

    Demonzfyre said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    It does say it in his Sig
    My Sig 62 Rhulk is 11.72% resistant for each charge.

    Yes, so at 10 charges he is over 100% resistant. That still doesn't tell me how much he can resist. The % means nothing unless we know what absolute number that % represents. The way it is worded now implies that he can be fully resistant to any incinerate damage, regardless of how much it is.

    Not debating the math here, but the language. Again, I understand how it works, but that's not how it's described. Especially because the physical resistance ís expressed in an absolute number, it gives off that impression of full resistance for that incinerate.

    Immune in this game means a debuff can't be placed, which is not applicable here because the damage emanates from the opponent.
    At 10 charges my sig 62 R3 Rhulk can resist 117.20% damage. It's written pretty clearly and I am not sure why you can't tell how much he can resist. He works the same way Corvus works while having Glaive charges active. While those charges are active, he can't be effected by bleed. While Rhulk has charges, he has resistance to incinerate.

    Everyone is trying to over complicate things. When duped he starts with 2 charges so he can start a fight 2x(sig ability%) and he will be that % of resistance. It doesn't say hes immune at all, only says he can be a % resistance to incinerate damage.
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig because the way it is currently worded, it actually is 100% resistance STOP. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3 in the future, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    excecpt it is not, it is is a reduction of 100% of the BASE damage of the incinerate, but Mephisto is doing 140% of the base damage, leaving you with 40% of the base damage.
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    dot_ditto said:

    Karuseus said:

    What you guys fail to understand that percentage is not calculated by add or subtract, unless you are talking about percentage point ( or kabam states as flat %)

    Given that, if you receive a 100% discount coupon for example, no matter how much the shop increase the price of their product, you will receive 100% total price discount, not 100% initial price discount

    Same deal here. 100% resistant? That’s multiplier of x(1-1). We all logically assume so, don’t we?

    Yet kabam begs to differ, and sure, I’m fine with that if that’s what they want the system to be. I just can’t accept the wordings tho...

    I was going to add something like this ... so I'll just quote you here, agree with you, but add a clarification:

    There 2 ways to handle these scenarios:

    1) Additive.
    2) Multiplicative.

    "Normally", when dealing with percentages, you use Multiplication.
    So incoming dmg: x (any VALUE .. ) ... times your resistance: 100%:
    x * (your resist)% = z dmg prevented.
    or another way to read it
    x * (100 - your resist)% = y dmg taken.

    In this case, when your resist is 100% .. you will always take 0 dmg.

    However, it appears that Kabam is using Additive method. And this would be consistent with their massive update years ago when they "removed perfect block". That is, when I first played, perfect block teams could give you 0 dmg on a block.
    Now they changed it so instead of multiplicatively calculating the dmg, they add it ... so you get "diminishing returns" .. you never quite get to 0 dmg ...

    I believe same thing is happening here.

    I do believe Kabam is doing the (as will-o-wisp put it): 100% dmg incoming + bonuses - your resist = dmg taken.

    so 100% + 40% - 100% = 40%

    It does work, it is a valid (sort of) way of handling these things. I don't like it .. ;)
    but I believe I understand why they did this ..

    Assuming it's the same formula (or similar) to their Ability Accuracy math, then yeah, they're adding/subtracting the modifiers to it first ...
    then taking that final % and applying it to the dmg.

    (I reserve the right to be completely wrong on this point :) hehe)
    it is still multiplicative, remember multiplication is just mass addition. The issue is the variable assignment for what the 100% represents, it is not the totality, it is the base damage.
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Marri_2 said:

    Demonzfyre said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    It does say it in his Sig
    My Sig 62 Rhulk is 11.72% resistant for each charge.

    Yes, so at 10 charges he is over 100% resistant. That still doesn't tell me how much he can resist. The % means nothing unless we know what absolute number that % represents. The way it is worded now implies that he can be fully resistant to any incinerate damage, regardless of how much it is.

    Not debating the math here, but the language. Again, I understand how it works, but that's not how it's described. Especially because the physical resistance ís expressed in an absolute number, it gives off that impression of full resistance for that incinerate.

    Immune in this game means a debuff can't be placed, which is not applicable here because the damage emanates from the opponent.
    100% resistant of the base incinerate damage. Immune does not just mean a debuff, it means damage. It is why HT does not take incinerate damage from Mephisto. they could be clearer that itis of the base, but at this point it is well known enough that they dont have to except for the most ardent arguers.
  • Options
    SeraphionSeraphion Posts: 1,496 ★★★★
    Rotelly said:

    Why would enhanced incinerate damage require increased resistance, if you are 100% resistant it shouldn't matter unless AAR came into play.

    If you use logic you are 100% right.
    But its something with the coding that is **** up (imo)

    Best example is omega. He is 90% bleedresistant and if you put 1 point into coagualte (-10% bleed damage) he becomes bleed damage immune except if they have nodes that improve % bleed damage. This happend to me in AQ Map 5 vs the MS miniboss.

    I think its **** but what can you do?
  • Options
    SeraphionSeraphion Posts: 1,496 ★★★★
    Austin555555 said:

    He shrugs it off when applied

    Bro...
  • Options
    Marri_2Marri_2 Posts: 577 ★★★
    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Demonzfyre said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    It does say it in his Sig
    My Sig 62 Rhulk is 11.72% resistant for each charge.

    Yes, so at 10 charges he is over 100% resistant. That still doesn't tell me how much he can resist. The % means nothing unless we know what absolute number that % represents. The way it is worded now implies that he can be fully resistant to any incinerate damage, regardless of how much it is.

    Not debating the math here, but the language. Again, I understand how it works, but that's not how it's described. Especially because the physical resistance ís expressed in an absolute number, it gives off that impression of full resistance for that incinerate.

    Immune in this game means a debuff can't be placed, which is not applicable here because the damage emanates from the opponent.
    100% resistant of the base incinerate damage. Immune does not just mean a debuff, it means damage. It is why HT does not take incinerate damage from Mephisto. they could be clearer that itis of the base, but at this point it is well known enough that they dont have to except for the most ardent arguers.
    "Base incinerate damage" is still not specific enough. If the 100% really makes him 'immune', then 100% is specific in the sense that it's always everything. We have seen, however, that there is a cap to the amount of damage he is immune to.

    Let's say you fight a 30k Mephisto unboosted. You take 0 damage. Then you fight a 3k Mephisto boosted and you do take damage,while even boosted the amount of damage would still be lower than from the 30k unboosted one. That's what is strange. It is either 100% meaning everything, which we have established is not the case, or there is a flat value behind that %, in which case there is a maximum amount of incinerate dmg he can resist. In which case I'd like to see that value instead of a % that everyone interprets as full resistance until suddenly it appears not to be the case.
  • Options
    Marri_2Marri_2 Posts: 577 ★★★
    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig because the way it is currently worded, it actually is 100% resistance STOP. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3 in the future, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    excecpt it is not, it is is a reduction of 100% of the BASE damage of the incinerate, but Mephisto is doing 140% of the base damage, leaving you with 40% of the base damage.
    Not arguing the math here. I see how it works.

    But 100% reduction does not mean "reduction of 100% of the base damage". That is an interpretation everyone came up with to explain the issue that we are now seeing. From a linguistic point of view, 100% resistent means to fully resist. Without a specification of a breaking point or a maximum, it is only logical people assume it really means everything.
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig because the way it is currently worded, it actually is 100% resistance STOP. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3 in the future, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    excecpt it is not, it is is a reduction of 100% of the BASE damage of the incinerate, but Mephisto is doing 140% of the base damage, leaving you with 40% of the base damage.
    Not arguing the math here. I see how it works.

    But 100% reduction does not mean "reduction of 100% of the base damage". That is an interpretation everyone came up with to explain the issue that we are now seeing. From a linguistic point of view, 100% resistent means to fully resist. Without a specification of a breaking point or a maximum, it is only logical people assume it really means everything.
    it can depending on the mechcanic involved.
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig because the way it is currently worded, it actually is 100% resistance STOP. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3 in the future, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    excecpt it is not, it is is a reduction of 100% of the BASE damage of the incinerate, but Mephisto is doing 140% of the base damage, leaving you with 40% of the base damage.
    Not arguing the math here. I see how it works.

    But 100% reduction does not mean "reduction of 100% of the base damage". That is an interpretation everyone came up with to explain the issue that we are now seeing. From a linguistic point of view, 100% resistent means to fully resist. Without a specification of a breaking point or a maximum, it is only logical people assume it really means everything.
    the problem is you are already making a ton of assumptions while ignoring how it works. For example logcally there are 3 ways it can work, the way you dont like. Or it could mean 10 stacks is 100%, OR and here is another way it could work, the first one is 10%, the second one is 9% of the damage, and so forth, because it is reducing 10% of the remaining damage.
    100- 10%
    90-10%
    81-10%

    you are stuck in this mentality that THIS IS HOW IT HAS TO WORK because that is the only way YOU understand the wording, but that is not the only way the wording can be interpreted mathmatically.
  • Options
    Marri_2Marri_2 Posts: 577 ★★★
    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig because the way it is currently worded, it actually is 100% resistance STOP. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3 in the future, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    excecpt it is not, it is is a reduction of 100% of the BASE damage of the incinerate, but Mephisto is doing 140% of the base damage, leaving you with 40% of the base damage.
    Not arguing the math here. I see how it works.

    But 100% reduction does not mean "reduction of 100% of the base damage". That is an interpretation everyone came up with to explain the issue that we are now seeing. From a linguistic point of view, 100% resistent means to fully resist. Without a specification of a breaking point or a maximum, it is only logical people assume it really means everything.
    the problem is you are already making a ton of assumptions while ignoring how it works. For example logcally there are 3 ways it can work, the way you dont like. Or it could mean 10 stacks is 100%, OR and here is another way it could work, the first one is 10%, the second one is 9% of the damage, and so forth, because it is reducing 10% of the remaining damage.
    100- 10%
    90-10%
    81-10%

    you are stuck in this mentality that THIS IS HOW IT HAS TO WORK because that is the only way YOU understand the wording, but that is not the only way the wording can be interpreted mathmatically.
    The fact that it CAN be interpreted in different ways is exactly what I am saying is the problem. I have no issue with the way it works. KABAM should describe it so that we can't even have this discussion.

    I am not stuck in 1 interpretation. I understand that mathematically it can be seen in different ways. I read all your posts carefully and I am not debating any of that. As a linguist I feel that when abilities are described in language and not in mathematical formulae, the numbers should follow a system. That is not the case in this game, because sometimes a percentage means the one thing, at other times it means something else.
  • Options
    Marri_2Marri_2 Posts: 577 ★★★
    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig because the way it is currently worded, it actually is 100% resistance STOP. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3 in the future, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    excecpt it is not, it is is a reduction of 100% of the BASE damage of the incinerate, but Mephisto is doing 140% of the base damage, leaving you with 40% of the base damage.
    Not arguing the math here. I see how it works.

    But 100% reduction does not mean "reduction of 100% of the base damage". That is an interpretation everyone came up with to explain the issue that we are now seeing. From a linguistic point of view, 100% resistent means to fully resist. Without a specification of a breaking point or a maximum, it is only logical people assume it really means everything.
    it can depending on the mechcanic involved.
    That's the problem. "It can". It doesn't have to. And it is not clear anywhere which mechanic is involved.
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    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Lormif said:

    Marri_2 said:

    Regardless of how we attempt to explain it, and I agree it's the node and likely that 40% (I was still taking some dmg at max sig 10 charges) the wording on Rulk's sig is misleading. He should be able to get 100% resistance to something. If you have a watch that is 100% resistant to water, it won't suddenly start leaking if I take a 40% longer shower than normal. Or if I step under a shower that has 40% more water pressure.

    Again, I understand the various mathematical explanations. I'm just talking about the language here.

    Take it past its Resistance threshold and see if it will. They typically dont say 100% resistance STOP. They say 100% resistance up to x meters.

    if they wanted him to be immune at 10 charges they would say immune at 10 charges like taskmaster.
    Then KABAM should explicitly state that in Rulk's sig because the way it is currently worded, it actually is 100% resistance STOP. We have no way of knowing what the threshold is. Is it equal to Mephisto 5-65 max sig Aura? What if you take Rulk against a 6* R3 in the future, will that be too much? Or is it as much as any natural Aura from any Mephisto? Can only nodes overstress Rulk?
    excecpt it is not, it is is a reduction of 100% of the BASE damage of the incinerate, but Mephisto is doing 140% of the base damage, leaving you with 40% of the base damage.
    Not arguing the math here. I see how it works.

    But 100% reduction does not mean "reduction of 100% of the base damage". That is an interpretation everyone came up with to explain the issue that we are now seeing. From a linguistic point of view, 100% resistent means to fully resist. Without a specification of a breaking point or a maximum, it is only logical people assume it really means everything.
    it can depending on the mechcanic involved.
    That's the problem. "It can". It doesn't have to. And it is not clear anywhere which mechanic is involved.
    They use the same mechanic for everything unless stated otherwise. The way this works is the base mechanic.
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    Marri_2Marri_2 Posts: 577 ★★★
    By the way: just use a max sig Rulk. Will have just over 150% resistance.
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    XxLoganTDCxXXxLoganTDCxX Posts: 2,561 ★★★★
    Marri_2 said:

    By the way: just use a max sig Rulk. Will have just over 150% resistance.

    Bruh, you cant say "just use a max sig Rhulk"
    Its not as easy as you say it is
    Lots of people don't have him and lots of people don't have him awakened or at a high sig
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    Marri_2Marri_2 Posts: 577 ★★★
    edited October 2019
    XxLoganTDCxX said:

    Marri_2 said:

    By the way: just use a max sig Rulk. Will have just over 150% resistance.

    Bruh, you cant say "just use a max sig Rhulk"
    Its not as easy as you say it is
    Lots of people don't have him and lots of people don't have him awakened or at a high sig
    Anything above sig 90 should work.

    Otherwise use Blade

    Maybe use Glad Hulk

    Or CaIW with science synergy + science sig

    Or Domino

    I defeated UC Mephisto with all those. Blade, Gulk, Rulk and CaIW were all 4*.

    Or Iceman

    Or Mephisto

    Or Human Torch

    Or Void

    Or some other option I am missing. Enough counters.

    My point was more that there is a version of duped Rulk, at high sig, that gets 14% or more per charge and so covers the node.
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    nOuxnOux Posts: 522 ★★★
    I think the problem is that you guys are calculating everything together. Node calculations comes after base, not added together. Game first calculates damage vs resistance and then node modification comes in to play. Same goes for bleeds etc...

    (100%-100%)+40%=40%

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    DrZolaDrZola Posts: 8,549 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    RoninMan said:

    will-o-wisp said:

    I can say it other way then, but it's correct. Also other similar scenarios in the game work just like this one, and have been confirmed as intended as well.

    You have an incinerate ability that deals 100% damage. Add 40% from the node, and you get 140% damage.
    If your champion is 100% resistent to it, then there is still 40% damage left. You need a champion, or someone who is able to be 140% resistent to it

    Once again, that’s not how math works. It should work like this;

    Incinerate ability does 100 damage. Enhanced incineration increases it to 140 damage. 100% incineration resistance means you prevent ALL 140 of the damage.
    That is not how math works. If you have x apples and they give you 100% more apples you have 2x apples. If they then take away 100% apples there is now x apples. You can write the equation as x + x - x=x.


    What you are trying to do is reassign x in the middle of the equation so that 100% is the final result of the addition before you do the subtraction, x+x -(x+x) =0. That requires additional wording not in the system.
    Actually, if they take away 100% of your apples you don’t have any apples anymore.

    That’s how 100% works.

    Dr. Zola
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    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    DrZola said:

    Lormif said:

    RoninMan said:

    will-o-wisp said:

    I can say it other way then, but it's correct. Also other similar scenarios in the game work just like this one, and have been confirmed as intended as well.

    You have an incinerate ability that deals 100% damage. Add 40% from the node, and you get 140% damage.
    If your champion is 100% resistent to it, then there is still 40% damage left. You need a champion, or someone who is able to be 140% resistent to it

    Once again, that’s not how math works. It should work like this;

    Incinerate ability does 100 damage. Enhanced incineration increases it to 140 damage. 100% incineration resistance means you prevent ALL 140 of the damage.
    That is not how math works. If you have x apples and they give you 100% more apples you have 2x apples. If they then take away 100% apples there is now x apples. You can write the equation as x + x - x=x.


    What you are trying to do is reassign x in the middle of the equation so that 100% is the final result of the addition before you do the subtraction, x+x -(x+x) =0. That requires additional wording not in the system.
    Actually, if they take away 100% of your apples you don’t have any apples anymore.

    That’s how 100% works.

    Dr. Zola
    When you say "100% of MY apples", you are redefining the representation of 100% from X to me and what I have, that is not how it works unless you define a re declaration, which they didnt, because we already declared 100% to represent X which just happens to be the apples I had at the start. 100% is not a continuously updating value unless you declare it so.
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    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Bajjsbwuqjw said:

    Enhanced incinerate shouldnt matter

    Because rhulk has 100% resistance against current damage no matter what damage it is

    You deal 1000/sec..he is immune to 1000
    You deal 100000/sec...he is immune to that

    Because potency increases the amount what damage deals but resistance nullifies the amount of the whole avtivated damage as a whole

    High sig just gets him to 100% sooner

    Not he way it works, he has 100% resistance to the base damage, therefore potency matters.
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    Eb0ny-O-M4wEb0ny-O-M4w Posts: 13,764 ★★★★★
    Bajjsbwuqjw said:

    Enhanced incinerate shouldnt matter

    Because rhulk has 100% resistance against current damage no matter what damage it is

    You deal 1000/sec..he is immune to 1000
    You deal 100000/sec...he is immune to that

    Because potency increases the amount what damage deals but resistance nullifies the amount of the whole avtivated damage as a whole

    High sig just gets him to 100% sooner

    Lets say, 1000 damage is 100% damage.
    Now the node would increase 40% damage. That becomes 1400 damage, which has now become 140% damage from the original value.
    Subtract 100% from that, and you get 40% left.

    "Immunity" and "100% resistence" are not the same, and will lead to different results deppending on the scenario
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    nOuxnOux Posts: 522 ★★★
    edited October 2019
    Bajjsbwuqjw said:

    Enhanced incinerate shouldnt matter

    Because rhulk has 100% resistance against current damage no matter what damage it is

    You deal 1000/sec..he is immune to 1000
    You deal 100000/sec...he is immune to that

    Because potency increases the amount what damage deals but resistance nullifies the amount of the whole avtivated damage as a whole

    High sig just gets him to 100% sooner

    Like i said before, base calculations comes before node calculations. Simple example in Variant3 there is Mephisto with 200% increased power gain, if u apply Voids 2x Petrify debuffs that reduces power gain by 100% Mephisto will still gain power at 100% rate. It works like this on every node.
    Calculation (0-100)+200=100%

    U can do test by yourself

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    nOuxnOux Posts: 522 ★★★
    Bajjsbwuqjw said:

    Enhanced incinerate shouldnt matter

    Because rhulk has 100% resistance against current damage no matter what damage it is

    You deal 1000/sec..he is immune to 1000
    You deal 100000/sec...he is immune to that

    Because potency increases the amount what damage deals but resistance nullifies the amount of the whole avtivated damage as a whole

    High sig just gets him to 100% sooner

    But that’s not how it works.

    In layman’s terms let’s say hulk can resist 100% fire damage out of 140% fire damage multiplier. Because damage multiplier is higher than resistance he still going to take 40% damage. If damage attacks resistance and damage multiplier is higher then it will penetrate resistance.

    It does not say that hulk can negate 100% fire damage but resist it.
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    theMercenarytheMercenary Posts: 643 ★★★
    No X apple is not the problem here. The problem is you guys turned here a god damn math forum.
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    NEO_mr_AndersonNEO_mr_Anderson Posts: 1,075 ★★★
    Resistant does not equal to Immune.
    If we take real life model, wich is not the case in MCOC, fire restistant can burn, when the temperature reach a certain point.
    So, let's say that Mephisto + node can go over the max resistance of RHulk.

    Come on guys, it's comic book world/game where Iceman is not immune to coldsnap, where KGroot spit poison, but, is not immune to it, etc...
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