Fantastic Four: Science or Cosmic??????

Ok summoners,

Please chime in your thoughts on the Fantastic Four being listed in the MCOC as SCIENCE??? I mean, has anyone read their bios up here??? They specifically list that the cosmic radiation gave them their powers. Not any serum or scientific development. Just my thoughts. But I would love to hear a different perspective. Same for Doom by the way. Chime in...

Comments

DOKTOROKTOPUS

Demonzfyre

Cosmic radiation from a science exploration mission.... They aren't from space and only got their powers through the experiments they were doing in space.

Doom is 100% Mystic. No question about it.

Apocalypse189

F4: they are scientists conducting an space experiment

Doctor Doom: Mystic suits him, only other class he could have been is tech

unknown

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Patchie93

Because that's what marvel told mcoc to put them as and it makes the most sense

Midknight007

This was discussed in the original release of Invisible Woman that Cosmic champions as Cosmic Entities and Alien-Experiments. Captain Marvel's power come from a Kree experiment and the Kree Blood. The Inhumans also get their powers from their Kree half. Meanwhile, the F4 got their powers from Cosmic Radiation, but it was an earth-experiment related event. It not saying they couldn't be Cosmic, but Kabam decided along those lines as to why they are science.

Kabam Zibiit

Hey there, we work closely with Marvel when determining what classes different Champions should be; when we were discussing the Fantastic Four, it was determined that Science was the best fit for their powers and origins.

Terra

Hey there, we work closely with Marvel when determining what classes different Champions should be; when we were discussing the Fantastic Four, it was determined that Science was the best fit for their powers and origins.

I'm curious about something, so indulge my curiosity if you want to.
Since Marvel is closely tied to this game, how does it work when creating Original characters made by Kabam, since it's technically co owned by the 2 parties? I'm thinking like Civil Warrior or Venom the duck. How is the class decided then?

Lt_Magnum_1

Science. They were mutates like Spider-man and Electro.

DNA3000

Hey there, we work closely with Marvel when determining what classes different Champions should be; when we were discussing the Fantastic Four, it was determined that Science was the best fit for their powers and origins.
I'm curious about something, so indulge my curiosity if you want to.
Since Marvel is closely tied to this game, how does it work when creating Original characters made by Kabam, since it's technically co owned by the 2 parties? I'm thinking like Civil Warrior or Venom the duck. How is the class decided then?

It is most likely that when it comes to developing story or characters - in effect extending the Intellectual Property of Marvel - Kabam is a "work for hire" employee of Marvel. In effect, Kabam is no different than any writer of Marvel comics, subject to editorial oversight by Marvel, and ultimately Marvel owns what they created.

In other words, even though Kabam's designers might have created Venom the Duck, that process was no different than any other Marvel author creating characters for the comic books, where Marvel the corporation still owns them. And as part of that process, Kabam would have worked with Marvel just as much as when they translate existing characters to the game like Silver Surfer.

DNA3000

This was discussed in the original release of Invisible Woman that Cosmic champions as Cosmic Entities and Alien-Experiments. Captain Marvel's power come from a Kree experiment and the Kree Blood. The Inhumans also get their powers from their Kree half. Meanwhile, the F4 got their powers from Cosmic Radiation, but it was an earth-experiment related event. It not saying they couldn't be Cosmic, but Kabam decided along those lines as to why they are science.

My understanding of the origins is that "Science" means the powers come from some super-scientific principle or mechanism, whereas "Cosmic" means the powers come from the fact that it is intrinsically "normal" for those alien beings to have super-human abilities.

In other words, if an Asgardian replicated the experiment that created the Hulk, he'd probably be Science origin. That's because the most important aspect of that being's superpowers would come from a scientific process (other than genetic mutation) and not from his Asgardian nature.

In the comic books and comic book logic, there's "normal" science that we learn in school, and then there's "super-science" that involves principles the universe obeys just like our everyday normal science but allows for superhuman abilities. This is an artificial distinction (obviously) but that's where the "Science origin" boundary lies. This is analogous to how we might look at (fictional) Kung Fu movies. In the fictional universe those movies exist in, there exist a level of skill people can achieve that allows them to do things that are blatantly impossible in our ordinary world. But in that fictional world, those things aren't "superhuman" they are "really really skilled human" and there exists a level of skill that makes the impossible possible.

Midknight007

@DNA3000
It was stated in the Thing Spotlight:

NOOOOOOOOPEEEEE wrote: »

What was the reasoning for making him science? Given the origin of his powers Cosmic seems more fitting.

For Cosmic vs. Science, Marvel's suggestion was that the F4 are in-line with other champions who were exposed to radiation due to experiments (like Spider-Man or Hulk). We consider aliens and people changed by alien experiments (like Captain Marvel) to be Cosmic.

Midknight007

Here is the link for anyone interested:
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/697613/#Comment_697613

DNA3000

@DNA3000
It was stated in the Thing Spotlight:

NOOOOOOOOPEEEEE wrote: »

What was the reasoning for making him science? Given the origin of his powers Cosmic seems more fitting.

For Cosmic vs. Science, Marvel's suggestion was that the F4 are in-line with other champions who were exposed to radiation due to experiments (like Spider-Man or Hulk). We consider aliens and people changed by alien experiments (like Captain Marvel) to be Cosmic.

I recall that statement. I don't think that general rule of thumb contradicts what I said about origins. It is a very off-the-cuff statement about a general rule of thumb: there are aliens that are not cosmic - for example, literally a month before making that statement Kabam released Aegon, a skill origin alien being, and Warlock and Ebony Maw are other exceptions to the alien=cosmic rule.

Consider Rocket Raccoon. Rocket is an alien. Furthermore Rocket is the product of alien experimentation. But he is tech, because the idea that he is tech is stronger than the rules of thumb for aliens being cosmic. These rules overlap and contradict in many ways, so finding one statement about how the origins work doesn't offer guidance by itself. You have to look at the totality of all the rules of thumb that seem to be working together.

Midknight007

@DNA3000
I wasn't contradicting, just providing the statement that I originally pulled from. Granted... Everything is subject to interpretation. The main thing that I pulled from the quote is that Kabam stated this was "Marvel's" suggestion, so it is more how Marvel classifies, not necessarily how Kabam does. That being said, Kabam is a little more looser with Cosmic. Like in your Aegon example - which should be Cosmic per Marvel's opinion... Besides F4 are Marvel Characters, while Aegon is a Kabam original character. Therefore, Kabam most likely went by Aegon's Skill Set and abilities more than a general classification like how Marvel suggests.

Midknight007

@DNA3000 Please keep in mind that the original Poster was commenting about the F4, and I pulled from the orginal post using the exact examples (with some minor embellishment).

Not to mention that you point of Rocket is more in line with Doc Oct and SL. It was determined that while Doc Oct is a scientist, his powers were derived from the technology... same with Green Goblin. The same rules would apply to Rocket. It isn't so much the Alien Experimentation or being an Alien, but the technology of the implants and lasers he uses that give him his abilities. Much like SL uses Technology (though be it alien)...

DNA3000

@DNA3000
I wasn't contradicting, just providing the statement that I originally pulled from. Granted... Everything is subject to interpretation. The main thing that I pulled from the quote is that Kabam stated this was "Marvel's" suggestion, so it is more how Marvel classifies, not necessarily how Kabam does. That being said, Kabam is a little more looser with Cosmic. Like in your Aegon example - which should be Cosmic per Marvel's opinion... Besides F4 are Marvel Characters, while Aegon is a Kabam original character. Therefore, Kabam most likely went by Aegon's Skill Set and abilities more than a general classification like how Marvel suggests.

My guess is that there's no Marvel handbook with actual written rules for this. It probably happens organically: a Kabam designer talks to a Marvel editor or producer and maybe someone familiar with the characters at Marvel, and they simply discuss it back and forth. The "rules" are just in people's heads, and not strict rules to follow.

And as I mentioned previously, I believe players are making a stronger distinction between "Kabam" characters and "Marvel" characters than actually exists in reality. They are all Marvel characters literally from the moment the idea pops into a Kabam designer's head. That's both the legal rule in the US (where Marvel is based) and the way these things are generally handled even when just writing comic books.

I would be surprised to the point of astonishment if Kabam wasn't operating under work for hire rules.

Midknight007

@DNA3000
I wasn't contradicting, just providing the statement that I originally pulled from. Granted... Everything is subject to interpretation. The main thing that I pulled from the quote is that Kabam stated this was "Marvel's" suggestion, so it is more how Marvel classifies, not necessarily how Kabam does. That being said, Kabam is a little more looser with Cosmic. Like in your Aegon example - which should be Cosmic per Marvel's opinion... Besides F4 are Marvel Characters, while Aegon is a Kabam original character. Therefore, Kabam most likely went by Aegon's Skill Set and abilities more than a general classification like how Marvel suggests.
My guess is that there's no Marvel handbook with actual written rules for this. It probably happens organically: a Kabam designer talks to a Marvel editor or producer and maybe someone familiar with the characters at Marvel, and they simply discuss it back and forth. The "rules" are just in people's heads, and not strict rules to follow.

And as I mentioned previously, I believe players are making a stronger distinction between "Kabam" characters and "Marvel" characters than actually exists in reality. They are all Marvel characters literally from the moment the idea pops into a Kabam designer's head. That's both the legal rule in the US (where Marvel is based) and the way these things are generally handled even when just writing comic books.

I would be surprised to the point of astonishment if Kabam wasn't operating under work for hire rules.

They are not 100% Marvel Characters if Kabam came up with the character from scratch and are not from an existing IP of Marvel. I have connections with people in the comic book industry. There are such things as royalties for original characters from Marvel Artists, though Marvel tends to have a much lower rate than DC (Hence the Todd McFarlen dispute) Marvel doesn’t legally own Kabam’s game... it is more like Marvel owns the licensing to their own characters, and Kabam would need to pay them for rights to use them.

Anything Kabam makes in their Game that is 100% from their own fabrication and isn’t a Marvel owned property and most likely licensed to Marvel for usage in their comic books. It would be a mutual beneficial. I may be wrong and Kabam may sell their characters outright, but there may be a clause that absolves them of any licensing fees as it was a independently created champion.

However, any idea of the business relation is purely assumption based. However, as a legal matter... Kabam owns the game, not any preexisting Marvel character and would have to pay royalties in order to use. That is why coveted champions are released slowly... most companies cannot dump the licensing fees for all the top champions everyone wants and why we get some lesser known champs mixed in with well-known ones.

DNA3000

@DNA3000
I wasn't contradicting, just providing the statement that I originally pulled from. Granted... Everything is subject to interpretation. The main thing that I pulled from the quote is that Kabam stated this was "Marvel's" suggestion, so it is more how Marvel classifies, not necessarily how Kabam does. That being said, Kabam is a little more looser with Cosmic. Like in your Aegon example - which should be Cosmic per Marvel's opinion... Besides F4 are Marvel Characters, while Aegon is a Kabam original character. Therefore, Kabam most likely went by Aegon's Skill Set and abilities more than a general classification like how Marvel suggests.
My guess is that there's no Marvel handbook with actual written rules for this. It probably happens organically: a Kabam designer talks to a Marvel editor or producer and maybe someone familiar with the characters at Marvel, and they simply discuss it back and forth. The "rules" are just in people's heads, and not strict rules to follow.

And as I mentioned previously, I believe players are making a stronger distinction between "Kabam" characters and "Marvel" characters than actually exists in reality. They are all Marvel characters literally from the moment the idea pops into a Kabam designer's head. That's both the legal rule in the US (where Marvel is based) and the way these things are generally handled even when just writing comic books.

I would be surprised to the point of astonishment if Kabam wasn't operating under work for hire rules.
They are not 100% Marvel Characters if Kabam came up with the character from scratch and are not from an existing IP of Marvel. I have connections with people in the comic book industry. There are such things as royalties for original characters from Marvel Artists, though Marvel tends to have a much lower rate than DC (Hence the Todd McFarlen dispute) Marvel doesn’t legally own Kabam’s game... it is more like Marvel owns the licensing to their own characters, and Kabam would need to pay them for rights to use them.

There are exceptions, especially from the older times when both copyright law was different and the operating contracts between creators and publishers was different. Or when someone creates a work first and then brings it to a publisher. Or when an author is famous enough or powerful enough to negotiate special terms. But if you actually have contacts with Marvel writers or artists, they should be able to tell you that work for hire is the default for contributions to Marvel's IP, and anything else is the exception not the rule. Especially after 1976 with the introduction of the copyright termination clause: work for hire is the only way to prevent a 35 year ticking time bomb from going off in their faces.

When I did work for a game developer, I pretty much had to sign those rights away myself: this is the applicable section of the contract:

The Consultant hereby assigns to Company any and all right, title, and interest in or related to Proprietary Information and acknowledges that all Proprietary Information shall be the sole property of Company and its assigns and that Company and its assigns shall be the sole owner of all patent rights, copyrights, trade secret rights, mask work rights and all other rights, including all intellectual property rights, throughout the world (collectively with the Proprietary Information, the "Inventions") in connection therewith.

As to those royalties, you should ask your contacts if those royalties are coming from creator-owned contracts or as part of the normal work-for-hire contracts. Work for hire contracts can have royalties built into them: Mark Waid touched on this a bit back when Man of Steel (the movie) came out (addressing both Marvel and DC):

In the ‘80s, the powers that be at DC and Marvel (at the time, really the only games in town) overhauled their systems and added royalties to the mix. Unless you were working on top-tier characters like Spider-Man or Teen Titans, the thresholds weren’t easy to meet–initially, at DC, books available on the newsstand had to sell 100,000 copies before royalties were paid, 40,000 copies for books sold strictly to comics shops, and not many did, (but you could dream!); at Marvel, sales were higher but royalties were divided differently between writers and artists. Pluses and minuses to both sides, but an upgrade nonetheless. Both companies also revamped their work-for-hire contracts to guarantee payment for reprints, collections and reissues. Moreover, DC (under the guidance of publisher Jenette Kahn and exec Paul Levitz) drew up a creator-equity agreement for the talent, granting a small but significant percentage of all revenue on new characters created by writers and artists. Marvel later followed suit with something similar, and while sales (and royalty thresholds) have moved up and down over the years, that’s pretty much the way the system’s worked ever since.

http://thrillbent.com/blog/how-dc-contracts-work/

Marvel doesn't likely own the game itself. The game is what's known in the intellectual property world as a collage work. It is a work composed of other copyright protected works. It is possible - which is to say likely - that when Kabam designs a character that is a work for hire construct that Marvel owns the copyright for, but when Kabam implements that character in the game that implementation is something that Kabam owns, and is licensed by Marvel to use the character itself for.

Midknight007

@DNA3000
I wasn't contradicting, just providing the statement that I originally pulled from. Granted... Everything is subject to interpretation. The main thing that I pulled from the quote is that Kabam stated this was "Marvel's" suggestion, so it is more how Marvel classifies, not necessarily how Kabam does. That being said, Kabam is a little more looser with Cosmic. Like in your Aegon example - which should be Cosmic per Marvel's opinion... Besides F4 are Marvel Characters, while Aegon is a Kabam original character. Therefore, Kabam most likely went by Aegon's Skill Set and abilities more than a general classification like how Marvel suggests.
My guess is that there's no Marvel handbook with actual written rules for this. It probably happens organically: a Kabam designer talks to a Marvel editor or producer and maybe someone familiar with the characters at Marvel, and they simply discuss it back and forth. The "rules" are just in people's heads, and not strict rules to follow.

And as I mentioned previously, I believe players are making a stronger distinction between "Kabam" characters and "Marvel" characters than actually exists in reality. They are all Marvel characters literally from the moment the idea pops into a Kabam designer's head. That's both the legal rule in the US (where Marvel is based) and the way these things are generally handled even when just writing comic books.

I would be surprised to the point of astonishment if Kabam wasn't operating under work for hire rules.
They are not 100% Marvel Characters if Kabam came up with the character from scratch and are not from an existing IP of Marvel. I have connections with people in the comic book industry. There are such things as royalties for original characters from Marvel Artists, though Marvel tends to have a much lower rate than DC (Hence the Todd McFarlen dispute) Marvel doesn’t legally own Kabam’s game... it is more like Marvel owns the licensing to their own characters, and Kabam would need to pay them for rights to use them.
There are exceptions, especially from the older times when both copyright law was different and the operating contracts between creators and publishers was different. Or when someone creates a work first and then brings it to a publisher. Or when an author is famous enough or powerful enough to negotiate special terms. But if you actually have contacts with Marvel writers or artists, they should be able to tell you that work for hire is the default for contributions to Marvel's IP, and anything else is the exception not the rule. Especially after 1976 with the introduction of the copyright termination clause: work for hire is the only way to prevent a 35 year ticking time bomb from going off in their faces.

When I did work for a game developer, I pretty much had to sign those rights away myself: this is the applicable section of the contract:
The Consultant hereby assigns to Company any and all right, title, and interest in or related to Proprietary Information and acknowledges that all Proprietary Information shall be the sole property of Company and its assigns and that Company and its assigns shall be the sole owner of all patent rights, copyrights, trade secret rights, mask work rights and all other rights, including all intellectual property rights, throughout the world (collectively with the Proprietary Information, the "Inventions") in connection therewith.

As to those royalties, you should ask your contacts if those royalties are coming from creator-owned contracts or as part of the normal work-for-hire contracts. Work for hire contracts can have royalties built into them: Mark Waid touched on this a bit back when Man of Steel (the movie) came out (addressing both Marvel and DC):
In the ‘80s, the powers that be at DC and Marvel (at the time, really the only games in town) overhauled their systems and added royalties to the mix. Unless you were working on top-tier characters like Spider-Man or Teen Titans, the thresholds weren’t easy to meet–initially, at DC, books available on the newsstand had to sell 100,000 copies before royalties were paid, 40,000 copies for books sold strictly to comics shops, and not many did, (but you could dream!); at Marvel, sales were higher but royalties were divided differently between writers and artists. Pluses and minuses to both sides, but an upgrade nonetheless. Both companies also revamped their work-for-hire contracts to guarantee payment for reprints, collections and reissues. Moreover, DC (under the guidance of publisher Jenette Kahn and exec Paul Levitz) drew up a creator-equity agreement for the talent, granting a small but significant percentage of all revenue on new characters created by writers and artists. Marvel later followed suit with something similar, and while sales (and royalty thresholds) have moved up and down over the years, that’s pretty much the way the system’s worked ever since.
http://thrillbent.com/blog/how-dc-contracts-work/

Marvel doesn't likely own the game itself. The game is what's known in the intellectual property world as a collage work. It is a work composed of other copyright protected works. It is possible - which is to say likely - that when Kabam designs a character that is a work for hire construct that Marvel owns the copyright for, but when Kabam implements that character in the game that implementation is something that Kabam owns, and is licensed by Marvel to use the character itself for.

I am very familiar with Mark Waid... My contact worked with him very closely.

My contact was not work for hire, they were a creator owned contract. They worked on several DC own IPs... they developed their own content in those IPs. They make royalties on their contributions to this day despite leaving DC. They got some substantial royalties when Justice League came out and references were simply hinted at that he created.

Pseudouber

Cool. So squirrel girl should be mutant right? Not skill like i saw in the testing video.

Midknight007

Cool. So squirrel girl should be mutant right? Not skill like i saw in the testing video.

Actually, according to Doctors... she is not a mutant. This was established in The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl Vol 2 #1

Midknight007

supposedly, this was done by Marvel to avoid Squirrel Girl becoming usable by Fox way back when Fox brought the movie rights to Mutants for X-Men.

DNA3000

supposedly, this was done by Marvel to avoid Squirrel Girl becoming usable by Fox way back when Fox brought the movie rights to Mutants for X-Men.

Somehow I don't think that would have held up in court. If Marvel could have gotten away with it back then, they would have retconned the X-Men to be radioactive corn on the cob to get them away from Fox.

unknown

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shadow_lurker22

Ok summoners,

Please chime in your thoughts on the Fantastic Four being listed in the MCOC as SCIENCE??? I mean, has anyone read their bios up here??? They specifically list that the cosmic radiation gave them their powers. Not any serum or scientific development. Just my thoughts. But I would love to hear a different perspective. Same for Doom by the way. Chime in...

Doctor Doom is a sorcerer with Mystical abilities why wouldn't he be mystic?