Rebalancing is disappointing...

CoatHang3r · February 2020

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

Whathappened said:
Not trolling. You don't get the extra .3 seconds. That's why I only 2 points in Parry. It's been a while since I've tested any of this but if I remember correctly going from 1 point to 2 actually increased the stun time but going to 3 points didn't. Going off a foggy memory but I didn't make that change without reason but do remember that the time difference between the two was nothing.
I don’t think you understand. Parry has a base 1s all ranks. You get up to an extra .5s-1s based on how high your perfect block chance is. If you have low PB chance it’s difficult to see much of a change in the duration but it does still increase. However when you have high PB chance it’s readily obvious.
If that is the case, and it seems your understanding of the mastery would explain all the observations, then I would say the mastery description is misleading to the point of being broken. There is simply no way anyone could make the argument that the mastery description either states this or implies this.
That’s the same conclusion that was made in Sept 2019.

Even the original description is broken if you add back "up to." There is one obvious way to describe the stun part of the mastery if it works the way you're articulating: "... stun attackers for one second plus up to [0.5/0.7/1.0] seconds based on perfect block chance." It is so obvious and so direct it seems to take extra effort to obfuscate it the way the mastery is actually written.

The original wording covered it. “Up to x seconds” states there is a range of time attackers will be stunned and the following line describes what modifies that time.

Madcat · February 2020

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

Whathappened said:
Not trolling. You don't get the extra .3 seconds. That's why I only 2 points in Parry. It's been a while since I've tested any of this but if I remember correctly going from 1 point to 2 actually increased the stun time but going to 3 points didn't. Going off a foggy memory but I didn't make that change without reason but do remember that the time difference between the two was nothing.
I don’t think you understand. Parry has a base 1s all ranks. You get up to an extra .5s-1s based on how high your perfect block chance is. If you have low PB chance it’s difficult to see much of a change in the duration but it does still increase. However when you have high PB chance it’s readily obvious.
If that is the case, and it seems your understanding of the mastery would explain all the observations, then I would say the mastery description is misleading to the point of being broken. There is simply no way anyone could make the argument that the mastery description either states this or implies this.
That’s the same conclusion that was made in Sept 2019.

Even the original description is broken if you add back "up to." There is one obvious way to describe the stun part of the mastery if it works the way you're articulating: "... stun attackers for one second plus up to [0.5/0.7/1.0] seconds based on perfect block chance." It is so obvious and so direct it seems to take extra effort to obfuscate it the way the mastery is actually written.

Yep. Take your pick - either the Mastery is broken per the current description or the Mastery description is broken per how the Mastery is currently functioning. Either way, it is broken and needs to be fixed.

DNA3000 · February 2020

CoatHang3r said:

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

Whathappened said:
Not trolling. You don't get the extra .3 seconds. That's why I only 2 points in Parry. It's been a while since I've tested any of this but if I remember correctly going from 1 point to 2 actually increased the stun time but going to 3 points didn't. Going off a foggy memory but I didn't make that change without reason but do remember that the time difference between the two was nothing.
I don’t think you understand. Parry has a base 1s all ranks. You get up to an extra .5s-1s based on how high your perfect block chance is. If you have low PB chance it’s difficult to see much of a change in the duration but it does still increase. However when you have high PB chance it’s readily obvious.
If that is the case, and it seems your understanding of the mastery would explain all the observations, then I would say the mastery description is misleading to the point of being broken. There is simply no way anyone could make the argument that the mastery description either states this or implies this.
That’s the same conclusion that was made in Sept 2019.

Even the original description is broken if you add back "up to." There is one obvious way to describe the stun part of the mastery if it works the way you're articulating: "... stun attackers for one second plus up to [0.5/0.7/1.0] seconds based on perfect block chance." It is so obvious and so direct it seems to take extra effort to obfuscate it the way the mastery is actually written.
The original wording covered it. “Up to x seconds” states there is a range of time attackers will be stunned and the following line describes what modifies that time.

Except that's not the point of contention. The point of contention is whether higher ranks will increase the stun duration with or without perfect block chance. The original description is silent on this point, and it is a critical point because the natural tendency is for players to assume unless otherwise stated that higher ranks will provide higher benefit. Kabam itself acknowledged this fact during the Pure Skill discussions where they stated point blank that while Pure Skill technically does something mechanical at higher tiers, the net benefit of that mechanical change can be effectively zero, which defies players expectations. Although the devs subsequently got hit in the head with a hammer and forgot about it, they did agree that absent an explicit statement otherwise it is reasonable for players to assume when they rank up a mastery the benefits will increase by some game-affecting amount, and the masteries should reflect that expectation.

Whathappened · February 2020

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

Whathappened said:
Not trolling. You don't get the extra .3 seconds. That's why I only 2 points in Parry. It's been a while since I've tested any of this but if I remember correctly going from 1 point to 2 actually increased the stun time but going to 3 points didn't. Going off a foggy memory but I didn't make that change without reason but do remember that the time difference between the two was nothing.
I don’t think you understand. Parry has a base 1s all ranks. You get up to an extra .5s-1s based on how high your perfect block chance is. If you have low PB chance it’s difficult to see much of a change in the duration but it does still increase. However when you have high PB chance it’s readily obvious.
If that is the case, and it seems your understanding of the mastery would explain all the observations, then I would say the mastery description is misleading to the point of being broken. There is simply no way anyone could make the argument that the mastery description either states this or implies this.
That’s the same conclusion that was made in Sept 2019.

Even the original description is broken if you add back "up to." There is one obvious way to describe the stun part of the mastery if it works the way you're articulating: "... stun attackers for one second plus up to [0.5/0.7/1.0] seconds based on perfect block chance." It is so obvious and so direct it seems to take extra effort to obfuscate it the way the mastery is actually written.
The original wording covered it. “Up to x seconds” states there is a range of time attackers will be stunned and the following line describes what modifies that time.
Except that's not the point of contention. The point of contention is whether higher ranks will increase the stun duration with or without perfect block chance. The original description is silent on this point, and it is a critical point because the natural tendency is for players to assume unless otherwise stated that higher ranks will provide higher benefit. Kabam itself acknowledged this fact during the Pure Skill discussions where they stated point blank that while Pure Skill technically does something mechanical at higher tiers, the net benefit of that mechanical change can be effectively zero, which defies players expectations. Although the devs subsequently got hit in the head with a hammer and forgot about it, they did agree that absent an explicit statement otherwise it is reasonable for players to assume when they rank up a mastery the benefits will increase by some game-affecting amount, and the masteries should reflect that expectation.

That's what lot of players have a problem with. Anyone reading that description or even the old one would expect stun time to increase per mastery level. Even if you need PB for Max stun time one would still expect higher stun time at level 2 and 3 over 1.

StevieManWonder · February 2020

Sorry, but can we get back to the topic of the rebalancing? The parry stuff is very important, but it hijacked this thread

CoatHang3r · February 2020

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

DNA3000 said:

CoatHang3r said:

Whathappened said:
Not trolling. You don't get the extra .3 seconds. That's why I only 2 points in Parry. It's been a while since I've tested any of this but if I remember correctly going from 1 point to 2 actually increased the stun time but going to 3 points didn't. Going off a foggy memory but I didn't make that change without reason but do remember that the time difference between the two was nothing.
I don’t think you understand. Parry has a base 1s all ranks. You get up to an extra .5s-1s based on how high your perfect block chance is. If you have low PB chance it’s difficult to see much of a change in the duration but it does still increase. However when you have high PB chance it’s readily obvious.
If that is the case, and it seems your understanding of the mastery would explain all the observations, then I would say the mastery description is misleading to the point of being broken. There is simply no way anyone could make the argument that the mastery description either states this or implies this.
That’s the same conclusion that was made in Sept 2019.

Even the original description is broken if you add back "up to." There is one obvious way to describe the stun part of the mastery if it works the way you're articulating: "... stun attackers for one second plus up to [0.5/0.7/1.0] seconds based on perfect block chance." It is so obvious and so direct it seems to take extra effort to obfuscate it the way the mastery is actually written.
The original wording covered it. “Up to x seconds” states there is a range of time attackers will be stunned and the following line describes what modifies that time.
Except that's not the point of contention. The point of contention is whether higher ranks will increase the stun duration with or without perfect block chance. The original description is silent on this point, and it is a critical point because the natural tendency is for players to assume unless otherwise stated that higher ranks will provide higher benefit. Kabam itself acknowledged this fact during the Pure Skill discussions where they stated point blank that while Pure Skill technically does something mechanical at higher tiers, the net benefit of that mechanical change can be effectively zero, which defies players expectations. Although the devs subsequently got hit in the head with a hammer and forgot about it, they did agree that absent an explicit statement otherwise it is reasonable for players to assume when they rank up a mastery the benefits will increase by some game-affecting amount, and the masteries should reflect that expectation.

The point of contention was the original description is broken. You’ve failed to evidence that.

It is all implied in rank 1 and through rank 3, base value with increased duration based on PB chance. It explicitly states What increases the stuns duration, perfect block chance.

This wasn’t an issue for the 3+ years prior to the removal of the phrasing “up to”. People were able to understand and reconcile what was actually happening. Even those who currently don’t comprehend Parry’s mechanics can still witness and understand the mechanics it’s just that some refuse to accept them.

Jairo77777 · February 2020

Maw and ht without significant changes, but maw is TRASH!!!

Whathappened · February 2020

Jairo77777 said:
Maw and ht without significant changes, but maw is TRASH!!!

Maw needs lots of work.

Snizzbar · February 2020

Does Parry at rank 3 give two seconds of stun by itself, or do you need Perfect Block to get a two second stun?
The current description would indicate Rank 3 Parry stuns are two seconds, and Perfect Block increases the duration BEYOND two seconds.

CoatHang3r · February 2020

Snizzbar said:
Does Parry at rank 3 give two seconds of stun by itself, or do you need Perfect Block to get a two second stun?
The current description would indicate Rank 3 Parry stuns are two seconds, and Perfect Block increases the duration BEYOND two seconds.

No, the description was changed after Jan 2019 and no longer reflects what determines the length of time the stun lasts.

Yes the current description is broken.

Parry has a base stun time of 1 second that is increased by perfect block chance and the rank of the parry mastery. It has always been this way.

Snizzbar · February 2020

CoatHang3r said:

Snizzbar said:
Does Parry at rank 3 give two seconds of stun by itself, or do you need Perfect Block to get a two second stun?
The current description would indicate Rank 3 Parry stuns are two seconds, and Perfect Block increases the duration BEYOND two seconds.
No, the description was changed after Jan 2019 and no longer reflects what determines the length of time the stun lasts.

Yes the current description is broken.

Parry has a base stun time of 1 second that is increased by perfect block chance and the rank of the parry mastery. It has always been this way.

So what is the maximum current stun time? And does it require max Perfect Block?

CoatHang3r · February 2020

Snizzbar said:

CoatHang3r said:

Snizzbar said:
Does Parry at rank 3 give two seconds of stun by itself, or do you need Perfect Block to get a two second stun?
The current description would indicate Rank 3 Parry stuns are two seconds, and Perfect Block increases the duration BEYOND two seconds.
No, the description was changed after Jan 2019 and no longer reflects what determines the length of time the stun lasts.

Yes the current description is broken.

Parry has a base stun time of 1 second that is increased by perfect block chance and the rank of the parry mastery. It has always been this way.
So what is the maximum current stun time? And does it require max Perfect Block?

With only the parry mastery the max is 1 second, it’ll be slightly greater than 1s in testing due to the champions base perfect block chance which is a hidden stat.

With parry 3/3 parry, 100% perfect block and stupefy you can reach 2 seconds; which you can increase with stupefy and some champion’s abilities.

Madcat · February 2020

BENJI830 said:
@CoatHang3r So for a player using champs without high perfect block - what Parry & Stupefy Mastery set up is optimal? I’ve had both maxed 3/3 for years and would like to stop being ripped off and it sounds like I should use some elsewhere.

For all but extreme cases - Parry at 1/3 and Stupefy at 3/3 gives you essentially the same stun time as Parry 3/3 and Stupefy 3/3.

I am going to do more testing, as I disagree with the 1.0 base stun time, but regardless, Parry 2/3 and Parry 3/3, for probably 98% of champs, do nothing beyond the increased damage reduction on a Parry.

Madcat · February 2020

CoatHang3r said:

Snizzbar said:

CoatHang3r said:

Snizzbar said:
Does Parry at rank 3 give two seconds of stun by itself, or do you need Perfect Block to get a two second stun?
The current description would indicate Rank 3 Parry stuns are two seconds, and Perfect Block increases the duration BEYOND two seconds.
No, the description was changed after Jan 2019 and no longer reflects what determines the length of time the stun lasts.

Yes the current description is broken.

Parry has a base stun time of 1 second that is increased by perfect block chance and the rank of the parry mastery. It has always been this way.
So what is the maximum current stun time? And does it require max Perfect Block?
With only the parry mastery the max is 1 second, it’ll be slightly greater than 1s in testing due to the champions base perfect block chance which is a hidden stat.

With parry 3/3 parry, 100% perfect block and stupefy you can reach 2 seconds; which you can increase with stupefy and some champion’s abilities.

I disagree, because of the following. "Only" Parry Mastery gives 1.5 seconds at 1/3 and also at 3/3 for most champions. It looks like if you have an extreme case of high PB (only what... 5 champions can obtain/have that high?) the 2nd and 3rd points might extend the stun time, but the base stays the same (1.0 per Coat, or 1.5 per me)

CoatHang3r · February 2020

BENJI830 said:
@CoatHang3r So for a player using champs without high perfect block - what Parry & Stupefy Mastery set up is optimal? I’ve had both maxed 3/3 for years and would like to stop being ripped off and it sounds like I should use some elsewhere.

Max stupefy is worth it. Without it you wont be able to Take advantage of a parry against AW defenders who have limber.

Maxing parry for stun duration is subjective. It gives the average champion .5s increased stun duration over rank 1 due to the average base perfect block chance of champions. This can be the difference of successfully attacking after a parry stun depending on reaction time. Also if you use the petrify or pacify mastery the benefit can be worth the extra stun time.

If you parry often you are not being ripped off as the damage reduction alone is worth it; It can be the difference between soloing a high attack opponent like an AQ boss, (story quest, event quest) or failing.

Whathappened · February 2020

BENJI830 said:
@CoatHang3r So for a player using champs without high perfect block - what Parry & Stupefy Mastery set up is optimal? I’ve had both maxed 3/3 for years and would like to stop being ripped off and it sounds like I should use some elsewhere.

What madcat said as long as you are talking about stun duration. It's been a while since I last looked into all this. If I remember correctly 1 point in Parry and Max stupefy will give you the same stun duration 95 percent of the time unless you get a perfect block compared to Parry R3. Don't forget though that each point in Parry also reduces damage taken per Parry. So point 2 and 3 are basically there for the damage reduction.

SlashingSunset · February 2020

Tried playing around with Annihilus. Nothing's changed basically with him. All that graphs, all that data for basically a timer which is nice, but he still feels the same to play as before.

CoatHang3r · February 2020

Madcat said:

I don’t know what you’re running in the way of synergies, perfect block in the mastery tree but 1.5s is not the base time.

Zero synergy, zero perfect block mastery.

Video validating the test.

https://youtu.be/UkO86L7e3cg

Hilarious that pic you posted is recycled from 9/2019 but you interchanged a pic from a different mastery build that clearly showed your Blade with a lower PI with 3/3 parry, 0/3 stupefy and a 1s stun duration. I’m leaning towards you falsifying your data by adding stupefy, increasing stun time and PI. You can prove me wrong by uploading a video verifying the test with your masteries and parry length Timestamps in real time.

Madcat · February 2020

CoatHang3r said:

Madcat said:

I don’t know what you’re running in the way of synergies, perfect block in the mastery tree but 1.5s is not the base time.

Zero synergy, zero perfect block mastery.

Video validating the test. https://youtu.be/UkO86L7e3cg

Hilarious that pic you posted is recycled from 9/2019 but you interchanged a pic from a different mastery build that clearly showed your Blade with a lower PI with 3/3 parry, 0/3 stupefy and a 1s stun duration. I’m leaning towards you falsifying your data by adding stupefy, increasing stun time and PI. You can prove me wrong by uploading a video verifying the test with your masteries and parry length Timestamps in real time.

1) The videos should still be publicly available on Youtube, FYI, as it is their software that I used in the "recycled" image you reference because my phone only is accurate to 0.1 seconds. Youtube is accurate to 0.001 seconds.
2) Read the top of the screenshot you just took. 1.5 seconds. Your argument is the only thing false here. I have zero reason to lie. Original folder for organizing it...

But please, keep arguing when even you admit that the description is not accurate to how it currently performs. Me? I'd rather focus on getting it fixed.

Let Kabam sort out if they are going to make it perform like the Mastery states, or "reverting" to the old way.

CoatHang3r · February 2020

Madcat said:

CoatHang3r said:

Madcat said:

I don’t know what you’re running in the way of synergies, perfect block in the mastery tree but 1.5s is not the base time.

Zero synergy, zero perfect block mastery.

Video validating the test. https://youtu.be/UkO86L7e3cg

Hilarious that pic you posted is recycled from 9/2019 but you interchanged a pic from a different mastery build that clearly showed your Blade with a lower PI with 3/3 parry, 0/3 stupefy and a 1s stun duration. I’m leaning towards you falsifying your data by adding stupefy, increasing stun time and PI. You can prove me wrong by uploading a video verifying the test with your masteries and parry length Timestamps in real time.

1) The videos should still be publicly available on Youtube, FYI, as it is their software that I used in the "recycled" image you reference because my phone only is accurate to 0.1 seconds. Youtube is accurate to 0.001 seconds.
2) Read the top of the screenshot you just took. 1.5 seconds. Your argument is the only thing false here. I have zero reason to lie. Original folder for organizing it...

But please, keep arguing when even you admit that the description is not accurate to how it currently performs. Me? I'd rather focus on getting it fixed.

Let Kabam sort out if they are going to make it perform like the Mastery states, or "reverting" to the old way.

You can see in your thread how you spliced two separate posts, the title may be 1.5s but the video clearly shows 1s; you assumed it was 1.5s because you were trying to create GIFs from video which are inaccurate and distorted time. This is all in the thread you created. You were proven to have 1s stun times.

You’re using screenshots from separate posts months ago and cannot even remember you were proven to have a 1s stun time; likely due to ego. You’ve come to a conclusion, married it and are now seeking to prove it, it’s flawed.

I’ve said since the beginning the description is flawed, you however continue to argue your beliefs against proven fact without verifying anything you post. It’s lame, you’re wrong that the base stun is 1.5s, it’s 1s; come to terms with it.

Here are the posts.

Blade with a 1s stun time and lower PI than the next pic with Blade having a 1.5s stun time and higher PI.

Stingerbk · February 2020

So when did this discussion move from the champion rebalance discussion to parry discussion??? 😂

Bboychobo · February 2020

@Kabam Miike yeah the rebalancing to Maw and Annihilus are unfo sad !! i was hoping for something better .. sad day !!!

Madcat · February 2020

Stingerbk said:
So when did this discussion move from the champion rebalance discussion to parry discussion??? 😂

Not sure, but I am done arguing with the peanut gallery characters 😂. Parry base stun length does not increase per the current Mastery description, fact. Either the Mastery is broken or the description is broken, fact. Moving on.

The Cull nerf is not as bad as I feared, but it only made a very very niche character slightly worse, on my opinion. The shorter first fight is not worth the top end loss, and I will be selling him back.

Maw and HT are minor improvements at best.

Namor I cannot speak to as I do not routinely run him with suicides.

DNA3000 · February 2020

Madcat said:
Youtube is accurate to 0.001 seconds.

Screen records are normally 30fps and I don't think Youtube supports frame rates above 60 fps. And because of the way interframes work with compressed video, Youtube isn't always 100% frame accurate. If you want to analyze what's going on in a screen recording frame by frame, you would need to use video software that supports frame by frame stepping or editing. As a practical matter, you shouldn't trust Youtube's playback when you need to measure timing more accurately than about a tenth of a second.

For reference a single frame of 30fps video is 0.033 seconds long. So really, that's the highest precision you can have for game timing anyway.

Scopeotoe987 · February 2020

The most charges with human torch I can get is 18, or do we need to immediately go to a heavy and time it perfectly to get 20? I have 2.5 seconds in parry?

Madcat · February 2020

Scopeotoe987 said:
The most charges with human torch I can get is 18, or do we need to immediately go to a heavy and time it perfectly to get 20? I have 2.5 seconds in parry?

Human Torch can never get to 2.5 seconds on a Parry. He can get to about 2 seconds, hence why you cannot get 20 charges off of a Parry.

Rebalancing is disappointing...

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