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Act 6 Chapter 4: The End of the Elders has Begun! [Rewards Updated]

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    hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Posts: 2,171 ★★★★★

    SLIPDRAG said:

    Kabam, you seriously dropped the ball with Act 6 rewards and I hope you review/revisit them. They are beyond mediocre and not at all worth the effort. Nothing in there is getting me excited to blast through and push for completion and/or exploration. Please reconsider updating the rewards. Thank you!

    We will not be changing them. As we said with the earlier Chapters, we chose to spread more of the Rewards out over the Chapters, and put less emphasis on the Act rewards this time, so players could use them earlier.
    I feel like there are actually some nice rewards mixed in here. If you add it all up, some of the rewards are quite solid. Really, there's some great stuff in there. And to be fair, I think the statement added to the announcement written by the team was great. That they realize there were some hiccups in the past and really want to make sure the act ends on a good note. I thought that was awesome. And I'm looking forward to seeing the final version of the content. I truly believe it's designers do want us to have a challenging, yet rewarding experience playing it.

    I think the problem is found in the final act rewards though. Specifically the top 2-3 items. I think those are what's giving folks a bad sense about this. Obviously, the largest complaints are that they are random class, not to scale with previous acts relative to the state of the game and simply not a great value from an effort to reward perspective. When you consider the entire scope of effort required for full exploration of the act, it's just not there for some players. A feeling of balance (effort to reward). From what I've seen so far, some content creators seem to agree with the rest of the community on this as well.

    That said, it's their game. They have the right to set the rewards to whatever they deem appropriate. And then we in turn, have the option to decide if we are still interested in playing it. Unfortunately, as it is, I think some will decide they are not. At least in the full participation in this particular content anyway. I personally, will most likely finish the completion. However the motivation to fully explore the act isn't there for me at the moment. As I said, I'm excited for the new content. It's just a matter of effort/reward ratio. If a consumer/supporter of a product invests their time and/or money in something. It has to feel worth it to them. Simple as that. If the opinions expressed here on the forum and in videos posted by content creators aren't compelling enough for the company to rethink it's strategy regarding the balance of these rewards, maybe the participation data to follow will be. I'm wishing nothing but the best for the future of this game. It really is awesome on so many levels.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,359 ★★★★★
    edited February 2020

    You guys realize it's not the end of the game, right?

    But it’s still the end of a 5 year story and people have spent hundreds if not thousands to end up getting stuck with terrible rewards.
    So because the Storyline is ending then the Rewards should be 5 years-worth? Act 6 hasn't run for 5 years. They're the Rewards for Act 6. As for spending, that's a choice. You can either wait, or spend money. That's all spending has ever done is save time. What it entitles people to is access to whatever they spent on. Not added Rewards to what is already scaled for the content.
    Come on man. It's the long anticipated culmination of the entire story arc. Of course people (rightly) expected something special. Act 4 rewards and act 5 rewards were fantastic at the time. These rewards are not. No one is saying that they are useless, and no one is asking for the moon. We worked hard to grind out act 5 because we wanted the rewards. The overwhelming consensus is that there is no reason to do that with act 6. If you drop your platitudes about "scaled for the content" and look at it objectively maybe you'll see why this is a problem lol. I won't hold my breath though.
    That's just it. It's not a culmination of all 6 Acts. It's Act 6, and what they're giving is proportional to what it is. Now, if they decided to offer something else to all those who have completed all 6, I could see that. However, Act 6 Rewards are for Act 6. Not all 6.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,359 ★★★★★
    They're the Rewards for Act 6. Not the last 5 years, the whole story arc, the money spent on doing it, the next year of the game, et al.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,359 ★★★★★

    You guys realize it's not the end of the game, right?

    But it’s still the end of a 5 year story and people have spent hundreds if not thousands to end up getting stuck with terrible rewards.
    So because the Storyline is ending then the Rewards should be 5 years-worth? Act 6 hasn't run for 5 years. They're the Rewards for Act 6. As for spending, that's a choice. You can either wait, or spend money. That's all spending has ever done is save time. What it entitles people to is access to whatever they spent on. Not added Rewards to what is already scaled for the content.
    Come on man. It's the long anticipated culmination of the entire story arc. Of course people (rightly) expected something special. Act 4 rewards and act 5 rewards were fantastic at the time. These rewards are not. No one is saying that they are useless, and no one is asking for the moon. We worked hard to grind out act 5 because we wanted the rewards. The overwhelming consensus is that there is no reason to do that with act 6. If you drop your platitudes about "scaled for the content" and look at it objectively maybe you'll see why this is a problem lol. I won't hold my breath though.
    That's just it. It's not a culmination of all 6 Acts. It's Act 6, and what they're giving is proportional to what it is. Now, if they decided to offer something else to all those who have completed all 6, I could see that. However, Act 6 Rewards are for Act 6. Not all 6.
    Well yes. Using your logic. Act 5, JUST act 5, allowed the first r5 champ of your choosing AND a generic 5* so u could awaken said champ. Act 4 same thing but with 4*. Seems logical to extend the same for the next level of progression in act 6 to r3 a 6* of YOUR choice. Furthermore, act 5 represented the first time in game that a player could reach the next level of progression which in that case was a 5*. Well kabam already allowed whales that advantage by simply paying for it, which has never before been the case in the game. Furthermore, they released abyss that enabled people who did not drop $100k to r3 a 6*. You are being illogical.
    The game was at a different place when Act 5 finished. It was at the point of Max 5*s. Generic Gems weren't as rare as a Generic 6* is now. We're only at R3 6*s being the ceiling.
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    cityofenochcityofenoch Posts: 45

    SLIPDRAG said:

    Kabam, you seriously dropped the ball with Act 6 rewards and I hope you review/revisit them. They are beyond mediocre and not at all worth the effort. Nothing in there is getting me excited to blast through and push for completion and/or exploration. Please reconsider updating the rewards. Thank you!

    We will not be changing them. As we said with the earlier Chapters, we chose to spread more of the Rewards out over the Chapters, and put less emphasis on the Act rewards this time, so players could use them earlier.
    I feel like there are actually some nice rewards mixed in here. If you add it all up, some of the rewards are quite solid. Really, there's some great stuff in there. And to be fair, I think the statement added to the announcement written by the team was great. That they realize there were some hiccups in the past and really want to make sure the act ends on a good note. I thought that was awesome. And I'm looking forward to seeing the final version of the content. I truly believe it's designers do want us to have a challenging, yet rewarding experience playing it.

    I think the problem is found in the final act rewards though. Specifically the top 2-3 items. I think those are what's giving folks a bad sense about this. Obviously, the largest complaints are that they are random class, not to scale with previous acts relative to the state of the game and simply not a great value from an effort to reward perspective. When you consider the entire scope of effort required for full exploration of the act, it's just not there for some players. A feeling of balance (effort to reward). From what I've seen so far, some content creators seem to agree with the rest of the community on this as well.

    That said, it's their game. They have the right to set the rewards to whatever they deem appropriate. And then we in turn, have the option to decide if we are still interested in playing it. Unfortunately, as it is, I think some will decide they are not. At least in the full participation in this particular content anyway. I personally, will most likely finish the completion. However the motivation to fully explore the act isn't there for me at the moment. As I said, I'm excited for the new content. It's just a matter of effort/reward ratio. If a consumer/supporter of a product invests their time and/or money in something. It has to feel worth it to them. Simple as that. If the opinions expressed here on the forum and in videos posted by content creators aren't compelling enough for the company to rethink it's strategy regarding the balance of these rewards, maybe the participation data to follow will be. I'm wishing nothing but the best for the future of this game. It really is awesome on so many levels.
    The biggest challenge is when kabam released abyss they opened up the next level of progression which end game players have been starving for, as this has been one of the slowest paths to next level progression the game has seen. For better or for worse, Kabam established a level of expectation based on investment of time and effort to complete abyss that act 6, which is harder, would match or have some kind of balanced rewards for the incredible investment of time and resources. In the end, the top tier rewards are less than half of what abyss grants. That is discouraging and dealt a serious blow to people’s interest in pushing to explore act 6.
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    cityofenochcityofenoch Posts: 45
    MattMan said:

    I just watched BGs vid and it confuses me. He talked about how as a f2p player he's well behind the endgame spenders and almost like playing a different game. Because of that, these mostly 5* rewards are great.

    He said he doesn't want a generic awakening gem or class cat selector or 300 6* sig stones because he could only get one champ to about sig 100 and that can't compete with the spenders. This really makes no sense to me. Would it not make more sense for him to want more gems and shards and sig stones so that he would have the ability to get champs to r3 and have a chance to earn more rewards with better prestige then only one random gem, one random cat and 0 sig stones so he has almost no chance to get a 6* to r3??

    I do agree with a lot of his thoughts about how they sold 6* champs and t5b way too early. It really feels like they're trying to show the progression with these rewards which IMO only hurt the f2p player as the spenders can just buy it all anyway.

    Ya his video was really off, I disagreed with most aspects. The title is misleading, its not the F2P perspective, its solely his as a lot of the points he comes up with isnt in the eyes of an average f2p but from the eyes of his account where 6 stars may be very hit or miss(some f2p have some great 6 star rosters). He also mentions that a T5CC wont help him since most of his candidates arent awakened but then he never discusses the availability of awakening gems in Act 6 which is really strange. Also he says how his rank 5 roster will increase by 30% but thats not the aim of Story rewards. End of story rewards are supposed to increase your account vertically not horizontally(well both but vertically is def the golden reward in there). Also where will you use that many rank 5s? I have around 10 and I dont even use a few of them weekly so idk what he is gonna do with 35ish. He does mention that he enjoyed the Act 5 structure which I do agree and that T5CC were released too early. Overall it doesnt even seem whales are happy due to the sheer rng effect.
    I agree with you. His video was from HIS point of view and selfishly focused on his unique desire to expand his 5* R5’s. Cool goal bro...but not one shared with many. He doesn’t have a good 6* to rank up so these rewards look good to him. But this is also a guy who defended 12.0 so I’m not the least bit surprised. Don’t get me wrong I like a lot of his videos but he doesn’t really advocate for the community

    He has a 6* human torch! Easily r3 worthy and would be a nice prestige boost for him even at s20 is just under 10900. It would greatly benefit him with only the current sig stones he has in his cache.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,359 ★★★★★

    You guys realize it's not the end of the game, right?

    But it’s still the end of a 5 year story and people have spent hundreds if not thousands to end up getting stuck with terrible rewards.
    So because the Storyline is ending then the Rewards should be 5 years-worth? Act 6 hasn't run for 5 years. They're the Rewards for Act 6. As for spending, that's a choice. You can either wait, or spend money. That's all spending has ever done is save time. What it entitles people to is access to whatever they spent on. Not added Rewards to what is already scaled for the content.
    Come on man. It's the long anticipated culmination of the entire story arc. Of course people (rightly) expected something special. Act 4 rewards and act 5 rewards were fantastic at the time. These rewards are not. No one is saying that they are useless, and no one is asking for the moon. We worked hard to grind out act 5 because we wanted the rewards. The overwhelming consensus is that there is no reason to do that with act 6. If you drop your platitudes about "scaled for the content" and look at it objectively maybe you'll see why this is a problem lol. I won't hold my breath though.
    That's just it. It's not a culmination of all 6 Acts. It's Act 6, and what they're giving is proportional to what it is. Now, if they decided to offer something else to all those who have completed all 6, I could see that. However, Act 6 Rewards are for Act 6. Not all 6.
    No, it's not proportional and is is, literally, the culmination of all 6 acts. That's what the final act is. The final chapter of a story is not a self contained unit. But even if I granted your point, isn't it strange that the rewards for the final act are less for the current state of the game than act 5 was? It isn't easier with current rosters than act 5 was at the time. In what way is it proportional? You like to throw out these platitudes about "scaled" and "balanced" and "proportional". How is is proportional?
    How are they less for the current state of the game? There's the state of the game how it actually is, and there's the state of the game that has been used to represent something Players call their own perception and goals.
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    Cendar333Cendar333 Posts: 303
    I could be mistaken, but a previous version of this post stated he would be a reward for the "first 100 players to explore act 6". Now it appears to say "100 fastest". Is there a separate challenge where he will be awarded to the 100 players to finish exploring act 6 first or is it just for legends runs (i.e. the fastest times in the given interval for a legends run and not just the first 100 players who show up and blaze through the content)
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    You guys realize it's not the end of the game, right?

    But it’s still the end of a 5 year story and people have spent hundreds if not thousands to end up getting stuck with terrible rewards.
    So because the Storyline is ending then the Rewards should be 5 years-worth? Act 6 hasn't run for 5 years. They're the Rewards for Act 6. As for spending, that's a choice. You can either wait, or spend money. That's all spending has ever done is save time. What it entitles people to is access to whatever they spent on. Not added Rewards to what is already scaled for the content.
    Come on man. It's the long anticipated culmination of the entire story arc. Of course people (rightly) expected something special. Act 4 rewards and act 5 rewards were fantastic at the time. These rewards are not. No one is saying that they are useless, and no one is asking for the moon. We worked hard to grind out act 5 because we wanted the rewards. The overwhelming consensus is that there is no reason to do that with act 6. If you drop your platitudes about "scaled for the content" and look at it objectively maybe you'll see why this is a problem lol. I won't hold my breath though.
    That's just it. It's not a culmination of all 6 Acts. It's Act 6, and what they're giving is proportional to what it is. Now, if they decided to offer something else to all those who have completed all 6, I could see that. However, Act 6 Rewards are for Act 6. Not all 6.
    No, it's not proportional and is is, literally, the culmination of all 6 acts. That's what the final act is. The final chapter of a story is not a self contained unit. But even if I granted your point, isn't it strange that the rewards for the final act are less for the current state of the game than act 5 was? It isn't easier with current rosters than act 5 was at the time. In what way is it proportional? You like to throw out these platitudes about "scaled" and "balanced" and "proportional". How is is proportional?
    How are they less for the current state of the game? There's the state of the game how it actually is, and there's the state of the game that has been used to represent something Players call their own perception and goals.

    The thing that you haven’t considered here is that the rewards also need to stand the test of time. I came to MCOC in 2018 so bad far more access to rank up materials than some of the older hats in this game, meaning that when I explored Act 5 there were alternate sources of T5b/R5s etc. yet despite this, the rewards were still exciting I was able to immediately awaken my Blade and Ghost from the rewards - sadly 5.3’s mystic gem sat for a while.

    When my equivalent in 2 years time joins this game they’re going to smash Act 5 because of the amount of east rank up materials they have access to but they’re still going to get instant and high value out of the R5 option and generic. They’re then going to go through Cavalier- probably more easily than we all did - and then they’re going to have access to the Cavalier MEQ and by this time it’s likely that there are also other sources of T5CC frags are slowly filtering into the game. So they’re probably able to get through Act 6’s initial clear with a solid roster of R5/2 champs a lot earlier in their curve than us.

    Then they’re going to play Act 7, because Act 6 exploration is a chore that’s not worth it to them until they have the easy access to R3 that Act 7 gives, the harder level Variant, MEQ and will slowly complete it when they’re bored. They’re going to explore it and will have a use for the rewards but they’re not going to be exciting.

    That’s not the culmination for 5 years of development that Kabam want or need.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,282 ★★★★★
    edited February 2020
    I believe the main source of displeasure of the rewards stem from introducing T5CC too early, i.e. in 6.1.

    This opened the floodgates for T5CC in AQ, followed by CyberMonday offers, then Gifting.

    Putting the final nail in the coffin was Abyss being released before 6.4, AND being too easy to clear with a specific subset of champs (actually just Aegon lol).

    Just imagine how awesome these rewards are IF the T5CC in all of the above mentioned aspects were removed, and Abyss made 10x harder (not in terms of PI, but in terms of champion/skill requirements).
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    KelvinKageKelvinKage Posts: 372 ★★★
    xNig said:

    I believe the main source of displeasure of the rewards stem from introducing T5CC too early, i.e. in 6.1.

    This opened the floodgates for T5CC in AQ, followed by CyberMonday offers, then Gifting.

    Putting the final nail in the coffin was Abyss being released before 6.4, AND being too easy to clear with a specific subset of champs (actually just Aegon lol).

    Just imagine how awesome these rewards are IF the T5CC in all of the above mentioned aspects were removed, and Abyss made 10x harder (not in terms of PI, but in terms of champion/skill requirements).

    This has some truth to it but what you didn’t address was act 4 and act 5 introducing the next frontier of champion ranks at the time of their respective releases. Yes these rewards would be awesome if t5cc were never introduced, but they were and it was not an accident or unprecedented. Most of us could have accurately guessed, before Act 6 was ever announced, that by the end of it rank 3 6*s would be in the game and accessible to those of us who could explore act 6. SO MANY of us, myself included, explored ANY of Act 6 believing that at the end would be a way to awaken and rank 3 a 6* of our choice, at the very least a somewhat decent chance of that, not 1/6.
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    PitPenguinsPitPenguins Posts: 22
    xNig said:

    Yeah the rng is pretty bad.

    I remember when I was doing my 5.4 Legends run.. I was pretty glad that everyone doing it was on the same playing field (5* R4s). But I can’t say the same for the 6.4 run with people doing it with 6*R3s and those who are unlucky with their T5CC/AG pulls have to do it with 5*R5s/6*R2s.

    This is a great point. Everyone compleating 5.4 at the time had a level playing field. Now, most people who are going to complete it now have at least 1 r3 if not 3-5. Their luck in the champ/gem/t5cc pulls will play a huge role in completing 6.4. I got two mutant t5cc from AOL so I ranked Sunspot and Sabertooth. ST is a fine champ and has good prestige but I'm only going to use him in 6.4 as a synergy champ. Had I got a cosmic for Corvus or a tech for Guilly2099 I'd have a much easier time in 6.4.

    The RNG of having to pull the right champ AND the right awakening gem AND the right t5cc just feels really bad.
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    SpankySpanky Posts: 9
    The displeasure with the rewards with most people I have talked to or seen talk is the randomness of the t5cc and AG. I personally wish that they would change the 4-5 5* gems to 1-2 6* since they are close to the same in stats but will allow people to progress quicker and motivate them to want to do the content also. If you put 50-75 hours (some maybe more) of gameplay to finish content and countless items plus you need almost every champ in the game to counter the content then you should be able to choose which champ you want to rank 3 after it is all over. It shouldn't be RNG based at that point. This isn't content you run through in a few hours. It's not really about having more rewards it's just about taking RNG out of the end result so people aren't left with materials they can't use for all the effort put in. A sure thing makes doing this content much more motivating. No one expects these same type of rewards for smaller content going forward either it's a one time thing to help get non whales a rank 3 they enjoy and can progress with.
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    SlapdashSlapdash Posts: 39
    Any changes on the Darkhawk boss? That fight is incredibly unfair, requiring either the single counter (Torch) to get through effectively, or a ton of units.
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    Slapdash said:

    Any changes on the Darkhawk boss? That fight is incredibly unfair, requiring either the single counter (Torch) to get through effectively, or a ton of units.

    What are the nodes?
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    TehsigzorzTehsigzorz Posts: 1,233 ★★★★
    H3t3r said:

    Slapdash said:

    Any changes on the Darkhawk boss? That fight is incredibly unfair, requiring either the single counter (Torch) to get through effectively, or a ton of units.

    What are the nodes?
    It had the EQ node like unblockable when hes in null phase and he starts in null phase so you need to knock him down without parrying. He also had I think spiked armor so critical hit champs will kill themselves.
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    SlapdashSlapdash Posts: 39
    edited February 2020
    H3t3r said:

    Slapdash said:

    Any changes on the Darkhawk boss? That fight is incredibly unfair, requiring either the single counter (Torch) to get through effectively, or a ton of units.

    What are the nodes?
    Spiked armor, if you crit with physical contact, you'll damage yourself heavily. You also need to be immune to incinerate, so you can bait out sp1s, to avoid his sp2 phase that makes you miss. You cant stop the incinerate or spiked armor with ability accuracy reduction, and knocking him down will put him in his shield mode, making him tanky and autoblock constantly. If you have to knock him down, then, you need true accuracy or true strike. Additionally, modifying his healing will not work, and kill you (Lionheart), and you cant use the same special 2 times in a row (Hurt Locker).
    Edit: He's also unlockable at the start. Almost forgot about that.
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    TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 2,254 ★★★★★

    Ebony_Naw said:

    You guys realize it's not the end of the game, right?

    I don't understand how you never see what's wrong with some of these rewards. The only way for Kabam to know how the playerbase feels is if people come here to let them know. The quantity of complaints IS important, and some of these complaints have come with quality feedback on how to improve the rewards without breaking the system. I don't understand why you have an issue with that.
    That's not accurate at all. If the Rewards are disproportionate as I see it, I've spoken up before. People can say if they don't like them. I'm not inhibiting anyone. I just don't agree that they're out of sync with progression or the current state of the game. Players may be ready to launch into a game that revolves around 6*s, but the game isn't. The Rewards aren't bad. Just not what meets expectations. It's the end of Act 6, and the Rewards are on par with the rest of the Act, and where the game is at in terms of what's available. There will be other ways to earn Rewards. It's not going to carry people through the duration of playing. It's appropriate to what it is. Some of the requests I've seen aren't even things that exist in the game currently. It's just expectation meets reality.
    You do realize you need six stars for act 6 gates. Saying the game doesn’t revolve around six’s is hilarious.
    Don't forget that the suggested hero ratings are for r3 6 stars as well. So the notion that the game isn't built around 6 stars is completely false and misinformation. That needs to stop spreading.
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    H3t3rH3t3r Posts: 2,882 Guardian
    edited February 2020
    Slapdash said:

    H3t3r said:

    Slapdash said:

    Any changes on the Darkhawk boss? That fight is incredibly unfair, requiring either the single counter (Torch) to get through effectively, or a ton of units.

    What are the nodes?
    Spiked armor, if you crit with physical contact, you'll damage yourself heavily. You also need to be immune to incinerate, so you can bait out sp1s, to avoid his sp2 phase that makes you miss. You cant stop the incinerate or spiked armor with ability accuracy reduction, and knocking him down will put him in his shield mode, making him tanky and autoblock constantly. If you have to knock him down, then, you need true accuracy or true strike. Additionally, modifying his healing will not work, and kill you (Lionheart), and you cant use the same special 2 times in a row (Hurt Locker).
    I wouldn't worry about the incernrate as its 25% of base attack. Might use hyperion and just rotate between sp1 and sp2. But that fight hopefully will change
    Edit: Redhulk will work with his incernrate immunity and good dmg or a built up morningstar could work to get huge l2s on the spiked armouts
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    SlapdashSlapdash Posts: 39
    H3t3r said:

    Slapdash said:

    H3t3r said:

    Slapdash said:

    Any changes on the Darkhawk boss? That fight is incredibly unfair, requiring either the single counter (Torch) to get through effectively, or a ton of units.

    What are the nodes?
    Spiked armor, if you crit with physical contact, you'll damage yourself heavily. You also need to be immune to incinerate, so you can bait out sp1s, to avoid his sp2 phase that makes you miss. You cant stop the incinerate or spiked armor with ability accuracy reduction, and knocking him down will put him in his shield mode, making him tanky and autoblock constantly. If you have to knock him down, then, you need true accuracy or true strike. Additionally, modifying his healing will not work, and kill you (Lionheart), and you cant use the same special 2 times in a row (Hurt Locker).
    I wouldn't worry about the incernrate as its 25% of base attack. Might use hyperion and just rotate between sp1 and sp2. But that fight hopefully will change
    If you can play around it with Hyperion, then more power to you, though I dont know how you'll possibly pull that off. Also, 25% of his attack is nearly 7000 damage, so it's no small amount of pain. 4 or 5 will kill unboosted champs.
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    Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 11,596 ★★★★★
    H3t3r said:

    Slapdash said:

    H3t3r said:

    Slapdash said:

    Any changes on the Darkhawk boss? That fight is incredibly unfair, requiring either the single counter (Torch) to get through effectively, or a ton of units.

    What are the nodes?
    Spiked armor, if you crit with physical contact, you'll damage yourself heavily. You also need to be immune to incinerate, so you can bait out sp1s, to avoid his sp2 phase that makes you miss. You cant stop the incinerate or spiked armor with ability accuracy reduction, and knocking him down will put him in his shield mode, making him tanky and autoblock constantly. If you have to knock him down, then, you need true accuracy or true strike. Additionally, modifying his healing will not work, and kill you (Lionheart), and you cant use the same special 2 times in a row (Hurt Locker).
    I wouldn't worry about the incernrate as its 25% of base attack. Might use hyperion and just rotate between sp1 and sp2. But that fight hopefully will change
    Edit: Redhulk will work with his incernrate immunity and good dmg or a built up morningstar could work to get huge l2s on the spiked armouts
    The issue hype will have is playing around shield mode most likely
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