Iron Man (Infinity War) is not gaining full power

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

I enjoy using Iron Man Infinity War (IMIW) but have long-suspected that he takes longer to get a bar of power than most other champs, so I wanted to test this suspicion.

To test, I took a series of champs to fight RoL Winter Soldier. I recorded these trials. In order to have a successful trial, my power gain had to come exclusively from hitting the opponent. This means no blocking or parrying. Also, since IMIW has 2 hits on his second Medium attack, I had to stick to MLLLL combos for all champs in the trial. Finally, the champs tested were not allowed to have any power-altering portions in their kits. This means champs like Psylocke, Aarkus, Cyclops (Blue), and Hyperion are ineligible.

To get a baseline, I took a 5* Rank 5 Sentinel and Void and recorded their hits. In both cases, it took exactly 36 hits to get to an L3. This tracks with the understanding that champs of the same rank and rarity have the same inherent power gain rates.

So I moved on to Rank 3 5* champs. I started with Iron Fist:

It took 39 hits to get to an L3 using MLLLL combos and no blocking.

Then Karnak:

It took the same 39 hits to get to an L3 using MLLLL combos and no blocking

Then IMIW:

IMIW took 43 hits to get to an L3 using MLLLL combos and no blocking

I think moved up to r2 6* Champs, starting with Cap IW to get a baseline:

It took 41 hits for an R2 6* to get to an L3 using the same criteria.

Then IMIW:

It took IMIW of the same rank & rarity 46 hits to reach an L3.

So it seems that IMIW gains power more slowly than other champions despite not having any mention of such an aspect in his kit. Without knowing exactly how much power was gained on any hit, it's impossible to nail down the exact shortage IMIW is seeing, but looking at the data collected, it appears that IMIW gains roughly 10% less power than other champs.

Is there a reason for this? Is there something I'm missing? I'm interested in hearing what others have to say. Thanks.

Okaythen · April 2020

Champ rank affects that
The high the rank the slight increase in power gain

TP33 · April 2020

I don’t know why. It kind of sucks though, if he were to have extra power gain it would make him a more viable offensive champion seeing as his play style revolves around the l3 or an L1, L2 combo. But I guess that was kanaks way of making him a manageable defender, imagine having to worry about massive damage reduction, auto lock AND loads of power

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

Okaythen said:
Champ rank affects that
The high the rank the slight increase in power gain

Correct, which is why I tested IMIW against champs of the same rank and rarity.

Eb0ny-O-M4w · April 2020

Have you tried doing the MLLLM combos with him?
Having an additional hit on the combo shouldn't impact the amount of power gained by the champion. A medium hit with 1 it should still give the exact power as a medium hit with 2 hits

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

will-o-wisp said:
Have you tried doing the MLLLM combos with him?
Having an additional hit on the combo shouldn't impact the amount of power gained by the opponent. A medium hit with 1 it should still give the exact power as a medium hit with 2 hits

That may or may not be the case, but either way I kept it to MLLLL to keep the hit count and thus power gain consistent, removing a variable.

I could have tested this with other champs with combo-ending mediums that also end in 2 hits like Phoenix or Aegon, but these champs are pretty limited and I'd run into the issue of not having them in the same rank as my IMIW for testing purposes.

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/158294/champions-of-different-rarities-gain-power-at-different-rates/p2

Are you talking about this one @UmbertoDelRio ?

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

I tried to take Miike's statement into account. This is why I used the same rank and rarity when comparing other champs to IMIW.

My concern is that instead of starting at a power rate of 1.00 at rank 1, it appears that IMIW is starting at 0.90 as a base power rate while other champs are starting at 1. I'm hoping someone can explain what I'm seeing.

Or perhaps this is a bug. Either way, I'd like some clarification.

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

TP33 said:
I don’t know why. It kind of sucks though, if he were to have extra power gain it would make him a more viable offensive champion seeing as his play style revolves around the l3 or an L1, L2 combo. But I guess that was kanaks way of making him a manageable defender, imagine having to worry about massive damage reduction, auto lock AND loads of power

If it were Kabam's intention to give him less power gain than other champs as their way have "balancing" the champ, I would expect this decreased power rate to be incorporated into the description the way it is for Psylocke or Aarkus. The fact that IMIW isn't one of the original champs with sparse descriptions leads me to believe they would have included this attribute in his description if it were intentional.

This one feels unintentional, but I'm looking to get to the bottom of it either way.

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

UmbertoDelRio said:

Mirage_Turtle said:
I tried to take Miike's statement into account. This is why I used the same rank and rarity when comparing other champs to IMIW.

My concern is that instead of starting at a power rate of 1.00 at rank 1, it appears that IMIW is starting at 0.90 as a base power rate while other champs are starting at 1. I'm hoping someone can explain what I'm seeing.

Or perhaps this is a bug. Either way, I'd like some clarification.
I think it's more like this:

Those rank dependant powergain factors are the same for every champ, BUT every champ also has a hidden value at which they gain power.

Let's say the average is 100 offensive/defensive powergain.

Imiw then has 90 offensive/defensive powergain, which then gets increased by a factor of 1,00-1,20 depending on his rank.

This may be the case, but are there other champs that are in this same, decreased power gain range? If so, which ones? And why?

On the other side of the coin, are there other champs on the higher end of the power gain spectrum that don't have this power gain listed in their abilities? If so, which ones? And why?

There may be more out there, but IMIW was the only one that stood out to me (possibly due to his reliance on L3), so I ran the test on him and confirmed that he does appear to have a lower power gain rate. This thread is aiming at determining the reason for this. If it's intentional, who else has altered power gain? If it's not, it's a bug that should be fixed. I'm just looking for clarification.

TP33 · April 2020

Imagine IMIW in his final phase gaining normal power AND an increased amount of power from the additional armour up, it scares me even though it’s not a thing

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

UmbertoDelRio said:

Mirage_Turtle said:

UmbertoDelRio said:

Mirage_Turtle said:
I tried to take Miike's statement into account. This is why I used the same rank and rarity when comparing other champs to IMIW.

My concern is that instead of starting at a power rate of 1.00 at rank 1, it appears that IMIW is starting at 0.90 as a base power rate while other champs are starting at 1. I'm hoping someone can explain what I'm seeing.

Or perhaps this is a bug. Either way, I'd like some clarification.
I think it's more like this:

Those rank dependant powergain factors are the same for every champ, BUT every champ also has a hidden value at which they gain power.

Let's say the average is 100 offensive/defensive powergain.

Imiw then has 90 offensive/defensive powergain, which then gets increased by a factor of 1,00-1,20 depending on his rank.
This may be the case, but are there other champs that are in this same, decreased power gain range? If so, which ones? And why?

On the other side of the coin, are there other champs on the higher end of the power gain spectrum that don't have this power gain listed in their abilities? If so, which ones? And why?

There may be more out there, but IMIW was the only one that stood out to me (possibly due to his reliance on L3), so I ran the test on him and confirmed that he does appear to have a lower power gain rate. This thread is aiming at determining the reason for this. If it's intentional, who else has altered power gain? If it's not, it's a bug that should be fixed. I'm just looking for clarification.
If we for the sake of the argument just say that this is an intended feature, then I think the "why" is pretty obvious.

It's an additional way of balancing a champion without directly changing their core design or other ability values.

I don't know about other champs, but I think it's pretty apparent with imiw. He's all about controlling a fight. So making the access to that control slightly harder to get/keep up is a great way to balance him without impacting the potency of his control.

For me, the "why" is less for determining the logic behind IMIW specifically. Instead, it's more important to help suss out which OTHER champs also have these altered power levels. What would be the criteria for tuning up/down an individual champ's power gain rate so we can have all the information at our disposal when ranking up or fighting against certain champs.

Again, I haven't noticed anything different with any other champs, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. Is anyone seeing any other weird power gain anomalies that aren't explicitly stated in their descriptions?

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

TP33 said:
Imagine IMIW in his final phase gaining normal power AND an increased amount of power from the additional armour up, it scares me even though it’s not a thing

To be fair, I'd say 90%+ of the times I face IMIW, I'm using Void. By the time he triggers is signature ability, he's draining his own power, so it's not a worry.

Even if I used any other champ, I'd never actively attack him while he's gaining power via his signature ability. In his final phase, I'm usually on the opposite side of the screen dodging L1's and waiting for the armor passives to fall off so I can parry/heavy or heavy counter him. I genuinely think it wouldn't be as bad as you're thinking.

Okaythen · April 2020

Honestly never noticed it with my IMIW
But makes sense due to his sig

Etjama · April 2020

Are you sure that 2 hits in the medium isn't meant to make up for this? I understand why you wanted to do a MLLLL test under these circumstances. But what if his MLLLM combos give him the same amount of power as other champs cause it 6 hits instead of 5?

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

Okaythen said:
Honestly never noticed it with my IMIW
But makes sense due to his sig

I'd disagree and say that if they wanted to keep his power in check because of his signature ability, they'd have lowered the power gain that's explicitly given in his signature ability and not just lower his innate power gain rate from hits.

Why would you hinder a champ's whole kit just so you can keep a small portion of it in check? Especially when that small portion already has it's own power gain component that could be altered.

For me, it doesn't make sense to reduce all of IMIW's power gain just to give the slightest of edges to players fighting him in his last 15% when duped. I mean, it took me this test and building to a full 3 bars of power in a controlled environment to verify that there is indeed a difference in his power gain rate. If he has a passive power gain going already, you're not going to notice a difference in a subtle power gain rate change in the closing moments of a fight. You've either got it under control or he's going to crush you. A 10% change in power gain rate on hits won't change that.

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

Etjama said:
Are you sure that 2 hits in the medium isn't meant to make up for this? I understand why you wanted to do a MLLLL test under these circumstances. But what if his MLLLM combos give him the same amount of power as other champs cause it 6 hits instead of 5?

To be frank, no, I'm not sure.

What I can tell you is that when I use IMIW, I'm often doing MLLLM combos and these fights ALSO felt like they took a long time to build to an L3. The MLLLL test confirmed this.

I suppose I could try this with 3* champs, but hopefully it won't come to that. It can be frustrating to get good runs on these...especially when WS drops his block when I'm trying to make him build power.

Hopefully a mod can chime in before it comes to this. But in case I have to...who else ends with a double-hit medium? Phoenix. Aegon. Who else?

Etjama · April 2020

Mirage_Turtle said:

Etjama said:
Are you sure that 2 hits in the medium isn't meant to make up for this? I understand why you wanted to do a MLLLL test under these circumstances. But what if his MLLLM combos give him the same amount of power as other champs cause it 6 hits instead of 5?
To be frank, no, I'm not sure.

What I can tell you is that when I use IMIW, I'm often doing MLLLM combos and these fights ALSO felt like they took a long time to build to an L3. The MLLLL test confirmed this.

I suppose I could try this with 3* champs, but hopefully it won't come to that. It can be frustrating to get good runs on these...especially when WS drops his block when I'm trying to make him build power.

Hopefully a mod can chime in before it comes to this. But in case I have to...who else ends with a double-hit medium? Phoenix. Aegon. Who else?

Those are the only ones I can think of other than Stealthy who has a 7 hit combo, but I was actually just thinking of comparing him to champs with a 5 hit combo. To see if that 6th hit is supposed to even out his power gain. So you could run the exact same test with the exact same champs if you wanted to. Just with a MLLLM combo.

Etjama · April 2020

UmbertoDelRio said:

Etjama said:
Are you sure that 2 hits in the medium isn't meant to make up for this? I understand why you wanted to do a MLLLL test under these circumstances. But what if his MLLLM combos give him the same amount of power as other champs cause it 6 hits instead of 5?
I did essentially the same test OP did a while ago.

My set-up was 3× parry-m-l-l-l-m with 5 different rarities on different ranks of imiw and yes he does have a lower powergain than average compared to other champs on the same rank

Gotcha, just a thought. In all honesty, his power gain has felt a little slow to me too but I don't play him often at all.

Mirage_Turtle · April 2020

UmbertoDelRio said:

Mirage_Turtle said:

Okaythen said:
Honestly never noticed it with my IMIW
But makes sense due to his sig
I'd disagree and say that if they wanted to keep his power in check because of his signature ability, they'd have lowered the power gain that's explicitly given in his signature ability and not just lower his innate power gain rate from hits.

Why would you hinder a champ's whole kit just so you can keep a small portion of it in check? Especially when that small portion already has it's own power gain component that could be altered.

For me, it doesn't make sense to reduce all of IMIW's power gain just to give the slightest of edges to players fighting him in his last 15% when duped. I mean, it took me this test and building to a full 3 bars of power in a controlled environment to verify that there is indeed a difference in his power gain rate. If he has a passive power gain going already, you're not going to notice a difference in a subtle power gain rate change in the closing moments of a fight. You've either got it under control or he's going to crush you. A 10% change in power gain rate on hits won't change that.
I think his sig is only one aspect. I do actually think that if this was for balancing reasons then it was actually done with his whole kit in mind.

Sig and sp3 aside, without any automatic powergain in place the opponent is essentially locked down once you've reached your first sp1.

Now, I vividly used imiw in all kinds of content and the way I understand all of this becomes exceptionally noticeable against opponents with increased powergain. With a bit more powergain it would be far easier to get to your sp1 and lock the opponent, but with his lower powergain rate you need to approach these matchups a bit more carefully and tactically.

This way they can have his base kit function the way it does and still add a bit of challenge for balancing reasons.

Thinking about it this could actually mostly or even only be about his pseudo-powerlock mechanic. Again, the fight is essentially completely under control once you've reached your first sp1/sp3. Decreasing his powerdrain for example would do nothing to balance this ability, because even the smallest possible powerdrain would still allow him to lock his opponent's sp3 with simple m-l-l-l-l combos.

In order to balance this mechanic it would make sense to make it slightly harder to access/keep up, since it's potency are essentially irrelevant. The only other thing would be the duration of his debuffs, which would make it exceptionally harder to actively combine shock and incinerate to a plasma passive. It would potentially achieve the same goal as in making him harder to play, but it would also negatively impact his kit as a whole.

I think the community as a whole is just yet in the process of really understanding what imiw even is as a character.

He's a tanky offensive control champ that rewards an agressive playstyle.

The sig is only one aspect, but it was the only aspect we were discussing. My response was specifically to the guy who said that a decreased power gain "Makes sense, due to his sig".

Iron Man (Infinity War) is not gaining full power

Comments