Changes to Guardian

Rotelly · August 2020

culturalreference1 said:

Kabam Miike said:

culturalreference1 said:

Rotelly said:
If block prof and armor were equal why have both?
because the block proficiency makes domino pretty op
Rotelly said:
guessing one reduces damage on blocking and the other reduces overall damage taken
the post says increase armor while blocking, so in every case it will only be during block.

how does true strike and the pierce mastery interact with this change? @Kabam Miike

They will still interact with it, so it won't be very helpful against those nodes, BUT, this is a huge buff in other ways. For instance, nothing that interacts with Block Proficiency will interact with this Armor rating increase. Bubble Shield, Incinerate, and Soft Guard for example.

This is also a positive for any Champ that already has high Block Proficiency.
thanks. sounds like a pretty decent trade off on the surface.

@culturalreference1 do you have a 5* or 6* guardian?

Ultimatheory · August 2020

Kabam Miike said:

culturalreference1 said:

Rotelly said:
If block prof and armor were equal why have both?
because the block proficiency makes domino pretty op
Rotelly said:
guessing one reduces damage on blocking and the other reduces overall damage taken
the post says increase armor while blocking, so in every case it will only be during block.

how does true strike and the pierce mastery interact with this change? @Kabam Miike

They will still interact with it, so it won't be very helpful against those nodes, BUT, this is a huge buff in other ways. For instance, nothing that interacts with Block Proficiency will interact with this Armor rating increase. Bubble Shield, Incinerate, and Soft Guard for example.

This is also a positive for any Champ that already has high Block Proficiency.

This is actually a nerf. Block proficiency is a far superior stat to a skilled player. Getting to 6000 block prof has always been the magic stat because that lets you take 0 damage from a parry. This gives champs like all of the Caps, IMIW, and Red Skull the utility to negate all damage on a well timed block.

The Guardian synergy expanded being able to get to this magic number to an additional 14 champions and provide them with perfect block on parry. With the way diminishing returns works this will not work the same way with the armor stat.

The flip side to this that if you take a hit to the face you will take reduced damage because armor will help there. Any experienced player would definitely take the block pro bonus instead though.

Rotelly · August 2020

Ultimatheory said:

Kabam Miike said:

culturalreference1 said:

Rotelly said:
If block prof and armor were equal why have both?
because the block proficiency makes domino pretty op
Rotelly said:
guessing one reduces damage on blocking and the other reduces overall damage taken
the post says increase armor while blocking, so in every case it will only be during block.

how does true strike and the pierce mastery interact with this change? @Kabam Miike

They will still interact with it, so it won't be very helpful against those nodes, BUT, this is a huge buff in other ways. For instance, nothing that interacts with Block Proficiency will interact with this Armor rating increase. Bubble Shield, Incinerate, and Soft Guard for example.

This is also a positive for any Champ that already has high Block Proficiency.
This is actually a nerf. Block proficiency is a far superior stat to a skilled player. Getting to 6000 block prof has always been the magic stat because that lets you take 0 damage from a parry. This gives champs like all of the Caps, IMIW, and Red Skull the utility to negate all damage on a well timed block.

The Guardian synergy expanded being able to get to this magic number to an additional 14 champions and provide them with perfect block on parry. With the way diminishing returns works this will not work the same way with the armor stat.

The flip side to this that if you take a hit to the face you will take reduced damage because armor will help there. Any experienced player would definitely take the block pro bonus instead though.

Yes but i believe they said it would only apply while blocking, so this won't help when you do take a hit to the face

culturalreference1 · August 2020

Rotelly said:

culturalreference1 said:

Kabam Miike said:

culturalreference1 said:

Rotelly said:
If block prof and armor were equal why have both?
because the block proficiency makes domino pretty op
Rotelly said:
guessing one reduces damage on blocking and the other reduces overall damage taken
the post says increase armor while blocking, so in every case it will only be during block.

how does true strike and the pierce mastery interact with this change? @Kabam Miike

They will still interact with it, so it won't be very helpful against those nodes, BUT, this is a huge buff in other ways. For instance, nothing that interacts with Block Proficiency will interact with this Armor rating increase. Bubble Shield, Incinerate, and Soft Guard for example.

This is also a positive for any Champ that already has high Block Proficiency.
thanks. sounds like a pretty decent trade off on the surface.
@culturalreference1 do you have a 5* or 6* guardian?

5* r5 sig 200 of which i used an ag and 199 generic sig stones for

LibertyPrimeV1 · August 2020

Kabam Miike said:

culturalreference1 said:

Rotelly said:
If block prof and armor were equal why have both?
because the block proficiency makes domino pretty op
Rotelly said:
guessing one reduces damage on blocking and the other reduces overall damage taken
the post says increase armor while blocking, so in every case it will only be during block.

how does true strike and the pierce mastery interact with this change? @Kabam Miike

They will still interact with it, so it won't be very helpful against those nodes, BUT, this is a huge buff in other ways. For instance, nothing that interacts with Block Proficiency will interact with this Armor rating increase. Bubble Shield, Incinerate, and Soft Guard for example.

This is also a positive for any Champ that already has high Block Proficiency.

Unless y'all plan on adding to the Synergy "This Armor Cannot Be Reduced Or Ignores In Any Way." then it won't be nearly as good, True Strike, True Damage, Armor Break/Shatter Reductions, and so on with Similar Abilities are Much More Common and in True Strike/True Damage's Case it just Ignores All Armor Immediately. Meanwhile with Block Proficiency the counters to it you suggested like Bubble Shield, Incinerate, and Soft Guard are a lot less common and only reduce it by a certain amount or Over Time through Multiple Hits taken.
See what we are trying to get at here? Armor is Countered much more of the time than Block Proficiency, as well Armor is Countered much more extremely in most of the Counter's Cases being Flat Out Ignored.

Is there not a way you could just reduce the Effectiveness of the Synergy for Domino alone and instead of reducing the Viability overall?
Example: Add a Line to Domino's Abilities stating "Abilities That Take Domino's Base Stats Into Account Will Only Count (let's just say for the example) 500 Points of Boosted Base Stats from any External Source." This would Limit how much her Base Stats being boosted by Synergies like Block Proficiency or Crit Chance could be Affecting the Abilities like her Perfect Crit or Perfect Block Abilities, while still letting her gain the Full Boost for just normal actions since most Synergies wouldn't even reach that high of a Boost besides the Guardian Synergy which gave a Flat 1000+ Boost that no other Base Stats Synergy even comes close to.

PurpleIsPimpin · August 2020

The solution seems a little lazy. Why not modify dominos ability or interaction. To change this whole synergy is a big nerf for this champ. With diminishing returns and various node interactions, armor and block proficiency are not the same. I will hold fill judgment until we see the values, but I dont see how yall reach an equivalent using armor as a sub. I used literally the rarest item in the game(6* generic awakening), because I valued this synergy and wanted to maximize my guardian return on investment in my lineup. Now one interaction, which I agree should be fixed, is resulting in a huge loss of return on investment for me. Can we not have at least a namor level comp? Where we can get the items we used back so we can make a decision based on this champions new value?

Rotelly · August 2020

The other things keep in mind is challenged rating and how a 6* r3/r4 decreases the effectiveness of block proficiency and won’t always be a perfect block. Just because it works against a 4* WS doesn’t mean it will in book 2

MaximusSavage · August 2020

Ultimatheory said:

Kabam Miike said:

culturalreference1 said:

Rotelly said:
If block prof and armor were equal why have both?
because the block proficiency makes domino pretty op
Rotelly said:
guessing one reduces damage on blocking and the other reduces overall damage taken
the post says increase armor while blocking, so in every case it will only be during block.

how does true strike and the pierce mastery interact with this change? @Kabam Miike

They will still interact with it, so it won't be very helpful against those nodes, BUT, this is a huge buff in other ways. For instance, nothing that interacts with Block Proficiency will interact with this Armor rating increase. Bubble Shield, Incinerate, and Soft Guard for example.

This is also a positive for any Champ that already has high Block Proficiency.
This is actually a nerf. Block proficiency is a far superior stat to a skilled player. Getting to 6000 block prof has always been the magic stat because that lets you take 0 damage from a parry. This gives champs like all of the Caps, IMIW, and Red Skull the utility to negate all damage on a well timed block.

The Guardian synergy expanded being able to get to this magic number to an additional 14 champions and provide them with perfect block on parry. With the way diminishing returns works this will not work the same way with the armor stat.

The flip side to this that if you take a hit to the face you will take reduced damage because armor will help there. Any experienced player would definitely take the block pro bonus instead though.

But the armor is on block only, and with a champion like Venom the Duck, toxic armor deals 90% more damage based on armor so taking blocked hits is gonna be devastating vs block proficiency not being affected. Same with true strike which ignores armor

LibertyPrimeV1 · August 2020

MaximusSavage said:

Ultimatheory said:

Kabam Miike said:

culturalreference1 said:

Rotelly said:
If block prof and armor were equal why have both?
because the block proficiency makes domino pretty op
Rotelly said:
guessing one reduces damage on blocking and the other reduces overall damage taken
the post says increase armor while blocking, so in every case it will only be during block.

how does true strike and the pierce mastery interact with this change? @Kabam Miike

They will still interact with it, so it won't be very helpful against those nodes, BUT, this is a huge buff in other ways. For instance, nothing that interacts with Block Proficiency will interact with this Armor rating increase. Bubble Shield, Incinerate, and Soft Guard for example.

This is also a positive for any Champ that already has high Block Proficiency.
This is actually a nerf. Block proficiency is a far superior stat to a skilled player. Getting to 6000 block prof has always been the magic stat because that lets you take 0 damage from a parry. This gives champs like all of the Caps, IMIW, and Red Skull the utility to negate all damage on a well timed block.

The Guardian synergy expanded being able to get to this magic number to an additional 14 champions and provide them with perfect block on parry. With the way diminishing returns works this will not work the same way with the armor stat.

The flip side to this that if you take a hit to the face you will take reduced damage because armor will help there. Any experienced player would definitely take the block pro bonus instead though.
But the armor is on block only, and with a champion like Venom the Duck, toxic armor deals 90% more damage based on armor so taking blocked hits is gonna be devastating vs block proficiency not being affected. Same with true strike which ignores armor

That was my point, there's so many more things that Counters Armor Effects and that have much more Potency when compare to the things that Counter Block Proficiency.

MaximusSavage · August 2020

Rotelly said:
I purchased a large number of crystals based on Guardians synergy ability.

This is not what i "purchased" if it is changed!

I did as well. And saved gems resources and sig stones to rank him SPECIFICALLY. This isn't a cheese like She-Hulk heavy that affects the champion itself, but changing a champions interaction WITH EVERY CHAMP IN THE GAME because of an already waaaaaayyy OP champion's interaction. Tweak the numbers on Domino so it doesn't happen and leave Guardian alone.

MaximusSavage · August 2020

LibertyPrimeV1 said:

MaximusSavage said:

Ultimatheory said:

Kabam Miike said:

culturalreference1 said:

Rotelly said:
If block prof and armor were equal why have both?
because the block proficiency makes domino pretty op
Rotelly said:
guessing one reduces damage on blocking and the other reduces overall damage taken
the post says increase armor while blocking, so in every case it will only be during block.

how does true strike and the pierce mastery interact with this change? @Kabam Miike

They will still interact with it, so it won't be very helpful against those nodes, BUT, this is a huge buff in other ways. For instance, nothing that interacts with Block Proficiency will interact with this Armor rating increase. Bubble Shield, Incinerate, and Soft Guard for example.

This is also a positive for any Champ that already has high Block Proficiency.
This is actually a nerf. Block proficiency is a far superior stat to a skilled player. Getting to 6000 block prof has always been the magic stat because that lets you take 0 damage from a parry. This gives champs like all of the Caps, IMIW, and Red Skull the utility to negate all damage on a well timed block.

The Guardian synergy expanded being able to get to this magic number to an additional 14 champions and provide them with perfect block on parry. With the way diminishing returns works this will not work the same way with the armor stat.

The flip side to this that if you take a hit to the face you will take reduced damage because armor will help there. Any experienced player would definitely take the block pro bonus instead though.
But the armor is on block only, and with a champion like Venom the Duck, toxic armor deals 90% more damage based on armor so taking blocked hits is gonna be devastating vs block proficiency not being affected. Same with true strike which ignores armor
That was my point, there's so many more things that Counters Armor Effects and that have much more Potency when compare to the things that Counter Block Proficiency.

Total agreement. They can tweak the block prof numbers on Domino and just affect her rather than clip an awesome synergy for champions that don't have it and aren't massively OP already.

Whathappened · August 2020

I'd prefer it if they just adjusted how the synergy works with Domino. Cut it in half for just her. I really like the block proficiency for certain champs that run on the low side. I understand it's OP but they were warned as soon as the spotlight came out. So I think it should be as minimal of a change as they can make.

Pulyaman · August 2020

I am not that convinced increasing armor rating to compensate for Block prof. is the same. Armor can be reduced by armor break champs and we have champs that place armor break without even touching you now. Block prof. also can be reduced, but something that interacts with a node and something that interacts with a champion are different. Hope they think of something else since it only affects one champ as far as we know. That synergy is the only useful thing guardian has and I have a 6 star one.

Kennado · August 2020

Worknprogress said:
It doesn't even work the same against higher CR opponents. Not sure why it needed to be changed but whatever. Who really cares what a R3 6* Domino does in RoL? She definitely doesn't do the same in act 6

Kennado · August 2020

PurpleIsPimpin said:
The solution seems a little lazy. Why not modify dominos ability or interaction. To change this whole synergy is a big nerf for this champ. With diminishing returns and various node interactions, armor and block proficiency are not the same. I will hold fill judgment until we see the values, but I dont see how yall reach an equivalent using armor as a sub. I used literally the rarest item in the game(6* generic awakening), because I valued this synergy and wanted to maximize my guardian return on investment in my lineup. Now one interaction, which I agree should be fixed, is resulting in a huge loss of return on investment for me. Can we not have at least a namor level comp? Where we can get the items we used back so we can make a decision based on this champions new value?

The irony here for me at least, is that I will be shifting all of my resources over to Namor due to the nerf in this scenario. Not a snowball's chance will I leave my 5* Guardian ranked and sigged if they touch his synergy and they give us our resources back.

Polygon · August 2020

Guess I won’t be going for guardian anymore

Seraphion · August 2020

@Kabam Miike

Something to keep in mind:

Block Prof is better than Armor most of the time.

Lets take an exmaple:

The champ has Block Prof 3715 (that is 65%)

Since parry gives a flat 25% less damage we are at 90% when you parry (10% damage taken)

And then we still need to calculate the base armor (~500 for most) which is 20%

So 10% x 0,8 = 8% damage taken or 92% damage reduction

Now add 1000 Block Pro.

You get to 4715 which is around + 5% = 70% + parry = 95%.

Same thing again: 5% x 0,8 = 4% damage taken or 96% reduction
==> so we gained +4% damage reduction

If you add 1000 armor insted you get from 20% to ~ 43% damage reduction but again its used multiplicative.

10% x 0,57 = 5,7% damage taken or 94,3% reduction.

Thats is almost 2% less damage reduction.

I hope you increase the armor value then bc otherwise this will be a nerf for everyone that uses Guardian.

TP33 · August 2020

Sorry you’re telling me that you spent money for a SYNERGY. Really? I mean maybe you should review your spending habits rather than be annoyed at kabam for their actions.

MaximusSavage · August 2020

Check this vid guys Jae breaks it down pretty comprehensively

https://youtu.be/YLwKIsQEPhE

culturalreference1 · August 2020

Mayis said:
Tho I don't believe someone put AG and 199 sig stones JUST for synergy. They could buy some crystals or grind arena for synergy, but why would u max his sig ability if u don't use him. If u do use him bc he's great champion, then u didn't upgrade him JUST for synergy.

he's obviously a good champ, but i have better champs that will go on my teams. that being said, i also don't want a 1/1 unawakened anything on my team if i'm going to be using up a slot on any of my teams.

Zuko_ILC · August 2020

I guess it depends on what happens with the change, this was brought up early on but must've been overlooked. Honestly the synergy was definitely something that I was grinding for. Hopefully the replacement is similar. I guess I can understand why they can't have this for Domino. I do think they should at least also add energy resistance.

Pulyaman · August 2020

Mayis said:
Tho I don't believe someone put AG and 199 sig stones JUST for synergy. They could buy some crystals or grind arena for synergy, but why would u max his sig ability if u don't use him. If u do use him bc he's great champion, then u didn't upgrade him JUST for synergy.

I got a 6 star. He is a great counter for flow in war..great counter for sinister. Counter for havok. All or which I did not have. He is not just a synergy champ like hiemdall. He has real value as a solo champion. Over and above that, the synergy buffs my stark spidey because his main draw back was low block prof.
People upgrade taking into account all the abilities of a champ. Even a nerf of one ability does matter. I don't see why if someone upgraded him just for synergy, why is his viewpoint any less valuable?

Changes to Guardian

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