15.0 Alliance Wars Update Discussion Thread

Summoners!

Our 15.0 Update is just about a week away, and with it, it's bringing a huge change to Alliance Wars! Check out everything you need to know about the Brand New Map, Scoring Changes, and new boosts in the Loyalty Store here: http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/17902/15-0-alliance-wars-update/

Comments

Huluhula

@DNA3000 #theheroweneedbutnottheonewedeserve

Huluhula

Tex_10000 wrote: »

If the alliance war is going to continue because of the diversity of heroes, I think it is right to offer Rdts to the players, since most of them have improved their heroes, spending cc4, cb4, and even money in the game to be able to have a good defense team in the war. it's useless. Spending hours straight to make arena event is just to improve the defense of the war and time thrown in the trash. Who really is against rdts is because they really had the luck of the crystals unlike others, and I do not speak in my case no, I speak in general of all the players. So, if diversity is bringing great changes to the game by hurting most players, I hope they will offer the good rts to the good guys and keep up the good game and not lose their qualities. If they do not solve this, I sincerely believe in a great loss of players which becomes a game without passion and without will to be played, because there is no competition.

#nomoreRDTposts

Phantom

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I wouldn't say I believe it's the sole reason. I believe it's one of the side-effects of 14.0 Wars. The use of multiple Champs led to the need for Diversity. As a result, everything outside of those Champs was regarded as useless. The point of Diversity is to use more Champs not currently used. The after-effect is that people refuse to use the other Champs because they consider them as garbage. What I'm saying is whether people see it as skill, or good/bad Defenders, or playing smart, it led to problems, and now people are resistant to use Champs because they're so set in the way they were playing before.

I'm afraid this is just false. No one is "resistant" to using champs just because of their prior value. Whenever champions have changed in significant ways, players immediately adapted, dropping some champs and adding others to their defensive rosters based on their actual effectiveness on defense. When 12.0 removed scaling healing, players grumbled about the nerfs but they immediately adjusted to the new paradigm. Ultron went from being a good defender to a lesser defender. You don't see too many Wolverine's anymore on defense. Players don't like change, but when the effectiveness of champions change, the players have changed tactics to accommodate. The problem with 15.0 is that effectiveness itself has been largely taken out of the equation.

And I really believe I deserve a direct response to that assertion. You've danced around it, but you keep asserting that 15.0 presents some new paragidm that revalues champions when I keep asserting it does no such thing: it eliminates the ability to value champions defensively all together because diversity points and lowered attacker points swamps any value the champions can have on defense (outside of boss nodes). You keep saying 15.0 presents a new way to value champions. You have an obligation to say what that actually is.

I assert 15.0 values defensive champions as basically empty shell node occupants, and the correct way to place defenders (again, always outside of the boss nodes) is to completely ignore what the champion is or does, and just place the maximally diverse set of champions. Prove me wrong. Give me a way to place defenders that doesn't do that, that has any chance of being a good idea. I put you in charge of hypothetical alliance A. I'm running alliance B. I'm going to place the maximal diverse defense. What are you going to do? This is not a discussion about theory. You have to do something specific. Tell me what that is.

The value is they need to be used to gain Points. Respectfully, I'm out. It's a never-ending argument.

Arguments end when someone loses. A forfeit is a loss.

DNA3000

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

This is why I have removed myself from the debate. I have my own opinions. People have theirs. I'm sorry, but I support the changes. I'm not about to change how I feel about it.

I don't particularly care how you or anyone else feels about the changes. If someone prefers 15.0 AW over 14.0 AW just because they find it more enjoyable to them, it is not my place to try to convince them otherwise. People like and dislike different things.

But you have been trying to justify the devs actions on an objective level, and those justifications themselves are subject to scrutiny. If you do not want an argument to be subjected to counter-argument, don't assert it in the first place. Honestly, you aren't doing the devs any favors.

You need to be able to simply state "I happen to like it" and leave it at that. Attempting to construct an objective justification for why you ought to like it is not your strong suit and it is unnecessary. Fact is, I don't know why you like it, because it does not do any of the things you claim it does. But I suspect that has less to do with what the AW changes are, and more to do with you trying to express your preferences in a technical manner beyond your expressive capabilities.

DNA3000

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I wouldn't say I believe it's the sole reason. I believe it's one of the side-effects of 14.0 Wars. The use of multiple Champs led to the need for Diversity. As a result, everything outside of those Champs was regarded as useless. The point of Diversity is to use more Champs not currently used. The after-effect is that people refuse to use the other Champs because they consider them as garbage. What I'm saying is whether people see it as skill, or good/bad Defenders, or playing smart, it led to problems, and now people are resistant to use Champs because they're so set in the way they were playing before.

I'm afraid this is just false. No one is "resistant" to using champs just because of their prior value. Whenever champions have changed in significant ways, players immediately adapted, dropping some champs and adding others to their defensive rosters based on their actual effectiveness on defense. When 12.0 removed scaling healing, players grumbled about the nerfs but they immediately adjusted to the new paradigm. Ultron went from being a good defender to a lesser defender. You don't see too many Wolverine's anymore on defense. Players don't like change, but when the effectiveness of champions change, the players have changed tactics to accommodate. The problem with 15.0 is that effectiveness itself has been largely taken out of the equation.

And I really believe I deserve a direct response to that assertion. You've danced around it, but you keep asserting that 15.0 presents some new paragidm that revalues champions when I keep asserting it does no such thing: it eliminates the ability to value champions defensively all together because diversity points and lowered attacker points swamps any value the champions can have on defense (outside of boss nodes). You keep saying 15.0 presents a new way to value champions. You have an obligation to say what that actually is.

I assert 15.0 values defensive champions as basically empty shell node occupants, and the correct way to place defenders (again, always outside of the boss nodes) is to completely ignore what the champion is or does, and just place the maximally diverse set of champions. Prove me wrong. Give me a way to place defenders that doesn't do that, that has any chance of being a good idea. I put you in charge of hypothetical alliance A. I'm running alliance B. I'm going to place the maximal diverse defense. What are you going to do? This is not a discussion about theory. You have to do something specific. Tell me what that is.

The value is they need to be used to gain Points. Respectfully, I'm out. It's a never-ending argument.

Devs: here's my argument. I assert that the absolute best thing anyone can say about defense placement is "well, we gotta place them for points" and pretty much nothing else. One each, and the only focus is on points. Not the champion. Points.

I present exhibit A. This individual likes 15.0 AW. He has no reason to portray it in a negative light. He represents the target audience of the changes. His answer to the question "how would you evaluate your roster to place defenders against someone placing a maximal diversity placement" is: "place for points."

Place for points is what the players most favorable to your changes are thinking. Place for points is what everyone else is thinking. Some players like it. Some players hate it. But all of them seem to agree, whether they will admit it or not, that you've obliterated the defensive value of champions across an extremely wide swath of the playerbase.

If that is true, small tweaks will not address the problem. The people who already like the system don't need small tweaks, and the people who don't like the system have issues that small tweaks aren't able to address. You need to consider strong structural changes, or admit to the part of the playerbase that doesn't like AW that AW isn't targeted for them anymore.

I rest my case.

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

It's an endless debate. I have my own views. Others have theirs. It has nothing to do with winning or losing an argument. I'm not debating it ad nauseum. The old system was changed for reasons that I agree with. Whether the system set in place was complete or successful or not, is a different subject. I support Diversity being used. I support the removal of Defender Kills. The main concepts of what they are trying to achieve, I am for because I see subsequent issues from the old system. I'm not delving into all of those or presenting any case, simply because people will inherently disagree based on their feelings towards the way it was. That's it. The discussion has gone on for weeks now, and whenever I add a thought, it is refuted. I could easily go into it more and in more specific detail, buy everytime I make points, things get fueled and refuted. It never ends. For reasons I have and have not outlined, I'm for the premise of the changes because I can see several problems caused by the old way, and I can see several that would be caused if it were to continue in the future. I didn't say it's perfect. They're still working on it. I said I'm for the concepts. I've already stated some of my thoughts and it just leads to further scrutiny so I will pass on elaborating. Thanks.

UC439

Jon8299 wrote: »

UC439 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

I don't know why people ranked up champs that are only good for defense. I ranked my champs for attack or questing and those who can be used on attack and defense. Magik is a great example of a champ that can do both, Agent Venom, Red Hulk (I use him for AWD to help with synergy, does get kills, and I use him for questing). I don't want RDTs, I wouldn't rank down anyone I have.

name me 5 champions that are equally TOP choices for both offense & defense.

Not any "maybe" or "canbe" used. They have to be TOP choices for both the scenarios.

Magik, Nightcrawler, Hyperion, Hulk, Mordo, Iceman. I gave you 6, you can use them to attack or defend.

read again I said no "can or may" they have to be the go to option. Give me a scenario where nc is better than wolv, x23, arch, rogue, storm, psylocke for attack. Same mordo, where is he better than voodoo, witch, gr, hood, guilly in offense?
Hulk as a defender? Really? Unless u mess up like crazy amount of time, hulk's gonna do nothing to u in defense!

There are only 4 atm (I asked u to give 5, bcz i know there are 4) - hyp, magik, ice, dorm(he is the go to option for power control matches, if u know how to play with him, bit less damage for sure)

JRock808

So many words to say so little.

And paragraphs.

Etaki_Lirakoi

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's an endless debate. I have my own views. Others have theirs. It has nothing to do with winning or losing an argument. I'm not debating it ad nauseum. The old system was changed for reasons that I agree with. Whether the system set in place was complete or successful or not, is a different subject. I support Diversity being used. I support the removal of Defender Kills. The main concepts of what they are trying to achieve, I am for because I see subsequent issues from the old system. I'm not delving into all of those or presenting any case, simply because people will inherently disagree based on their feelings towards the way it was. That's it. The discussion has gone on for weeks now, and whenever I add a thought, it is refuted. I could easily go into it more and in more specific detail, buy everytime I make points, things get fueled and refuted. It never ends. For reasons I have and have not outlined, I'm for the premise of the changes because I can see several problems caused by the old way, and I can see several that would be caused if it were to continue in the future. I didn't say it's perfect. They're still working on it. I said I'm for the concepts. I've already stated some of my thoughts and it just leads to further scrutiny so I will pass on elaborating. Thanks.

Stop it. It’s an “Endless debate”, because you keep coming back to it.

If you’ve said you’re done, like the past 3 times, then stop. You keep on coming back later after more people respond, fueling the “debate” again.

If you truely want the argument to stop, then actually stop posting in the thread about it, like you said you were going to. Learn to ignore it.

You do this stuff way to often.

Cliffordcan

New AW is the 2nd worst thing you have done to the game. I spend more time planing and in spreadsheets than I do playing each war. I would much rather play based on skill for 20 mins than herd my alliance members for hours and hours. If something doesn't change with the update in a few days I will be leaving my 1 star review. I'm trying to be constructive, bring back Defender Kills.

GroundedWisdom

Etaki_Lirakoi wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's an endless debate. I have my own views. Others have theirs. It has nothing to do with winning or losing an argument. I'm not debating it ad nauseum. The old system was changed for reasons that I agree with. Whether the system set in place was complete or successful or not, is a different subject. I support Diversity being used. I support the removal of Defender Kills. The main concepts of what they are trying to achieve, I am for because I see subsequent issues from the old system. I'm not delving into all of those or presenting any case, simply because people will inherently disagree based on their feelings towards the way it was. That's it. The discussion has gone on for weeks now, and whenever I add a thought, it is refuted. I could easily go into it more and in more specific detail, buy everytime I make points, things get fueled and refuted. It never ends. For reasons I have and have not outlined, I'm for the premise of the changes because I can see several problems caused by the old way, and I can see several that would be caused if it were to continue in the future. I didn't say it's perfect. They're still working on it. I said I'm for the concepts. I've already stated some of my thoughts and it just leads to further scrutiny so I will pass on elaborating. Thanks.

Stop it. It’s an “Endless debate”, because you keep coming back to it.

If you’ve said you’re done, like the past 3 times, then stop. You keep on coming back later after more people respond, fueling the “debate” again.

If you truely want the argument to stop, then actually stop posting in the thread about it, like you said you were going to. Learn to ignore it.

You do this stuff way to often.

It's an endless debate period. Not because I keep coming back to it. I'm not the only one participating in it. I said I was making an effort not to contribute to the negativity and cyclical discussion. I never said I was solely responsible for it. I have thoughts and I can share them if I choose. I also have the choice not to debate them, if I see it necessary.

Etaki_Lirakoi

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Etaki_Lirakoi wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's an endless debate. I have my own views. Others have theirs. It has nothing to do with winning or losing an argument. I'm not debating it ad nauseum. The old system was changed for reasons that I agree with. Whether the system set in place was complete or successful or not, is a different subject. I support Diversity being used. I support the removal of Defender Kills. The main concepts of what they are trying to achieve, I am for because I see subsequent issues from the old system. I'm not delving into all of those or presenting any case, simply because people will inherently disagree based on their feelings towards the way it was. That's it. The discussion has gone on for weeks now, and whenever I add a thought, it is refuted. I could easily go into it more and in more specific detail, buy everytime I make points, things get fueled and refuted. It never ends. For reasons I have and have not outlined, I'm for the premise of the changes because I can see several problems caused by the old way, and I can see several that would be caused if it were to continue in the future. I didn't say it's perfect. They're still working on it. I said I'm for the concepts. I've already stated some of my thoughts and it just leads to further scrutiny so I will pass on elaborating. Thanks.

Stop it. It’s an “Endless debate”, because you keep coming back to it.

If you’ve said you’re done, like the past 3 times, then stop. You keep on coming back later after more people respond, fueling the “debate” again.

If you truely want the argument to stop, then actually stop posting in the thread about it, like you said you were going to. Learn to ignore it.

You do this stuff way to often.

It's an endless debate period. Not because I keep coming back to it. I'm not the only one participating in it. I said I was making an effort not to contribute to the negativity and cyclical discussion. I never said I was solely responsible for it. I have thoughts and I can share them if I choose. I also have the choice not to debate them, if I see it necessary.

It is because you keep coming back to it, you keep giving out ammo and re-heating the debate, get out of your denial and just watch it die down for a bit.

Go visit other threads or play the game, it’ll be gone within the day if you stay away from the thread.

unknown

This content has been removed.

GroundedWisdom

Etaki_Lirakoi wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Etaki_Lirakoi wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's an endless debate. I have my own views. Others have theirs. It has nothing to do with winning or losing an argument. I'm not debating it ad nauseum. The old system was changed for reasons that I agree with. Whether the system set in place was complete or successful or not, is a different subject. I support Diversity being used. I support the removal of Defender Kills. The main concepts of what they are trying to achieve, I am for because I see subsequent issues from the old system. I'm not delving into all of those or presenting any case, simply because people will inherently disagree based on their feelings towards the way it was. That's it. The discussion has gone on for weeks now, and whenever I add a thought, it is refuted. I could easily go into it more and in more specific detail, buy everytime I make points, things get fueled and refuted. It never ends. For reasons I have and have not outlined, I'm for the premise of the changes because I can see several problems caused by the old way, and I can see several that would be caused if it were to continue in the future. I didn't say it's perfect. They're still working on it. I said I'm for the concepts. I've already stated some of my thoughts and it just leads to further scrutiny so I will pass on elaborating. Thanks.

Stop it. It’s an “Endless debate”, because you keep coming back to it.

If you’ve said you’re done, like the past 3 times, then stop. You keep on coming back later after more people respond, fueling the “debate” again.

If you truely want the argument to stop, then actually stop posting in the thread about it, like you said you were going to. Learn to ignore it.

You do this stuff way to often.

It's an endless debate period. Not because I keep coming back to it. I'm not the only one participating in it. I said I was making an effort not to contribute to the negativity and cyclical discussion. I never said I was solely responsible for it. I have thoughts and I can share them if I choose. I also have the choice not to debate them, if I see it necessary.

It is because you keep coming back to it, you keep giving out ammo and re-heating the debate, get out of your denial and just watch it die down for a bit.

Go visit other threads or play the game, it’ll be gone within the day if you stay away from the thread.

I'm not going to leave a Thread entirely because people disagree with my thoughts. You misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm just not elaborating or delving deeper into my views.

unknown

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Jon8299

UC439 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

UC439 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

I don't know why people ranked up champs that are only good for defense. I ranked my champs for attack or questing and those who can be used on attack and defense. Magik is a great example of a champ that can do both, Agent Venom, Red Hulk (I use him for AWD to help with synergy, does get kills, and I use him for questing). I don't want RDTs, I wouldn't rank down anyone I have.

name me 5 champions that are equally TOP choices for both offense & defense.

Not any "maybe" or "canbe" used. They have to be TOP choices for both the scenarios.

Magik, Nightcrawler, Hyperion, Hulk, Mordo, Iceman. I gave you 6, you can use them to attack or defend.

read again I said no "can or may" they have to be the go to option. Give me a scenario where nc is better than wolv, x23, arch, rogue, storm, psylocke for attack. Same mordo, where is he better than voodoo, witch, gr, hood, guilly in offense?
Hulk as a defender? Really? Unless u mess up like crazy amount of time, hulk's gonna do nothing to u in defense!

There are only 4 atm (I asked u to give 5, bcz i know there are 4) - hyp, magik, ice, dorm(he is the go to option for power control matches, if u know how to play with him, bit less damage for sure)

First of all, you told me to list champs that are equally top defenders and attackers, so I gave you my opinion. Really if you mess up with most champs, you'll get ko'd or lose a lot of health. I don't care who you are or what device you play on, either human error, or game bugs or glitches can and will cost you.

Second, Nightcrawler has his own dexterity, plus if you have the dexterity mastery that gives you a larger chance to avoid a hit, he has auto-evade and has strong special attacks, not as strong as Storms specials attacks but when does evading incoming attacks not come in handy?

Third, none of the champs that you listed in comparison to Nightcrawler or Mordo are very good defenders. So I don't know why you mentioned them. The discussion is about if you can't use 1 champ for defense anymore, they can still be used for AQ, AWA or questing. So the people who want to Rank Down, Magik or Nightcrawler shouldn't feel that way cause they can slide over to the attack instead.

Fourth, the point I was making was, if you ranked Nightcrawler or Magik (the 2 names that pop up most from people who want RDTs) and don't want to use them in the AW, then use them in questing. They can lead a really solid B-Team if you already don't have them as part of your main questing team. It's better than those who ranked up Ant-Man, cause now they're stuck and they know it.

Fifth, you say that there are only 4 champs who are equally top defenders and attackers, that is your opinion, I gave you mine. If you don't like it, that's fine. Not everyone has the champs you compared to Nightcrawler or Mordo as 4* or 5* and not everyone has the top "got to" champs that can do both defense and attack. I have Dr. Voodoo, Guillotine, Wolverine and Storm. I don't have Mordo, but I do have Nightcralwer.

Anyways, I wasn't saying I'm better than those who ranked champs just for defense such as Ant-Man. I was just sharing how I rank up my champs. i don't need or want rank down tickets, I ranked the best champs I had available at the time. That's what people should do. If a day comes they can't be used as defenders anymore, try and find a use for them elsewhere in the game. Also, rank 5 4* and rank 4 5* are great to have for arena grinding, right? There is one use out of 3 or 4 that some strong defender champs have in this game. The other uses could be AQ/AWA or Questing.

I'm sorry if my earlier comment came off the wrong way. I'm just really tired of seeing so many threads on rank down tickets, when we haven't even received the final version of the new AW.

GroundedWisdom

Jon8299 wrote: »

UC439 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

UC439 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

I don't know why people ranked up champs that are only good for defense. I ranked my champs for attack or questing and those who can be used on attack and defense. Magik is a great example of a champ that can do both, Agent Venom, Red Hulk (I use him for AWD to help with synergy, does get kills, and I use him for questing). I don't want RDTs, I wouldn't rank down anyone I have.

name me 5 champions that are equally TOP choices for both offense & defense.

Not any "maybe" or "canbe" used. They have to be TOP choices for both the scenarios.

Magik, Nightcrawler, Hyperion, Hulk, Mordo, Iceman. I gave you 6, you can use them to attack or defend.

read again I said no "can or may" they have to be the go to option. Give me a scenario where nc is better than wolv, x23, arch, rogue, storm, psylocke for attack. Same mordo, where is he better than voodoo, witch, gr, hood, guilly in offense?
Hulk as a defender? Really? Unless u mess up like crazy amount of time, hulk's gonna do nothing to u in defense!

There are only 4 atm (I asked u to give 5, bcz i know there are 4) - hyp, magik, ice, dorm(he is the go to option for power control matches, if u know how to play with him, bit less damage for sure)

First of all, you told me to list champs that are equally top defenders and attackers, so I gave you my opinion. Really if you mess up with most champs, you'll get ko'd or lose a lot of health. I don't care who you are or what device you play on, either human error, or game bugs or glitches can and will cost you.

Second, Nightcrawler has his own dexterity, plus if you have the dexterity mastery that gives you a larger chance to avoid a hit, he has auto-evade and has strong special attacks, not as strong as Storms specials attacks but when does evading incoming attacks not come in handy?

Third, none of the champs that you listed in comparison to Nightcrawler or Mordo are very good defenders. So I don't know why you mentioned them. The discussion is about if you can't use 1 champ for defense anymore, they can still be used for AQ, AWA or questing. So the people who want to Rank Down, Magik or Nightcrawler shouldn't feel that way cause they can slide over to the attack instead.

Fourth, the point I was making was, if you ranked Nightcrawler or Magik (the 2 names that pop up most from people who want RDTs) and don't want to use them in the AW, then use them in questing. They can lead a really solid B-Team if you already don't have them as part of your main questing team. It's better than those who ranked up Ant-Man, cause now they're stuck and they know it.

Fifth, you say that there are only 4 champs who are equally top defenders and attackers, that is your opinion, I gave you mine. If you don't like it, that's fine. Not everyone has the champs you compared to Nightcrawler or Mordo as 4* or 5* and not everyone has the top "got to" champs that can do both defense and attack. I have Dr. Voodoo, Guillotine, Wolverine and Storm. I don't have Mordo, but I do have Nightcralwer.

Anyways, I wasn't saying I'm better than those who ranked champs just for defense such as Ant-Man. I was just sharing how I rank up my champs. i don't need or want rank down tickets, I ranked the best champs I had available at the time. That's what people should do. If a day comes they can't be used as defenders anymore, try and find a use for them elsewhere in the game. Also, rank 5 4* and rank 4 5* are great to have for arena grinding, right? There is one use out of 3 or 4 that some strong defender champs have in this game. The other uses could be AQ/AWA or Questing.

I'm sorry if my earlier comment came off the wrong way. I'm just really tired of seeing so many threads on rank down tickets, when we haven't even received the final version of the new AW.

This last point is the point I've been trying to make about the RDT issue. We use them in other areas of the game and Rank others if we need to. People have healthy Rosters, and in some cases they have spades of Resources expiring because they won't Rank certain Champs. It's their choice, but it makes no sense to me at all. Ranking is how we grow our Accounts. The game does not center around Wars, and if Champs are Ranked, they're still useful. Having more Champs Ranked is never a bad thing. That's my opinion. Everything from the Leaderboard to Ally Rating is determined by Rating. Champs are useful in Quests and the Arena. A while back, people were upset because they missed the Awakening Gem. Partly because people view Rating as insignificant. In terms of War, it may mean coordinating with others to see what Champs need Ranked for War. There is a whole game outside of that, and Ranking is not actually wasted.

WOK

@GroundedWisdom @Etaki_Lirakoi These are my thoughts without elaborating more in detail of my personal views.
The previous AW as voiced by the majority of players here in the forums, was far from perfect but good enough for us to enjoy and be excited about week after week.
The current AW as again voiced by the majority of players here is even further away from perfect and does not engage the players in any positive aspect. It has also been PROVEN through simple calculations that it is badly flawed.
I personally agree with both, and so far, all I've read is the same rebuttal worded differently to appear as if they are new insights addressing the many arguments.
May I suggest we all move this discussion in the direction of highlighting more of what could be done to fix AW's current woes rather than argue what has already been done?
IMO, many good suggestions have been give already, such as node changes, points adjustments, map adjustments, match making adjustments, just to list a few.

Far as I can understand from the threads I've read regarding AW, only a handful have steadfastly demanded it to be reverted back to the previous version. The rest have been trying to be as positive as is possible for them to express their concerns and while also offering possible changes that could benefit the game.

@GroundedWisdom , Im sorry but all I've gotten out of your comments is the same argument basically justifying that serious changes are not necessary with no solid evidence to support such views.

JRock808

Jon8299 wrote: »

when does evading incoming attacks not come in handy?.

Ever. Its never handy.

It's why no one uses Spider-Man in attack despite his strong damage output. Auto evade is the worst thing that can happen when attacking. It screws up parries and intercepts and you end up evading yourself into a corner. I turn it off asap when I'm using nightcrawler.

Jon8299

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

UC439 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

UC439 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

I don't know why people ranked up champs that are only good for defense. I ranked my champs for attack or questing and those who can be used on attack and defense. Magik is a great example of a champ that can do both, Agent Venom, Red Hulk (I use him for AWD to help with synergy, does get kills, and I use him for questing). I don't want RDTs, I wouldn't rank down anyone I have.

name me 5 champions that are equally TOP choices for both offense & defense.

Not any "maybe" or "canbe" used. They have to be TOP choices for both the scenarios.

Magik, Nightcrawler, Hyperion, Hulk, Mordo, Iceman. I gave you 6, you can use them to attack or defend.

read again I said no "can or may" they have to be the go to option. Give me a scenario where nc is better than wolv, x23, arch, rogue, storm, psylocke for attack. Same mordo, where is he better than voodoo, witch, gr, hood, guilly in offense?
Hulk as a defender? Really? Unless u mess up like crazy amount of time, hulk's gonna do nothing to u in defense!

There are only 4 atm (I asked u to give 5, bcz i know there are 4) - hyp, magik, ice, dorm(he is the go to option for power control matches, if u know how to play with him, bit less damage for sure)

First of all, you told me to list champs that are equally top defenders and attackers, so I gave you my opinion. Really if you mess up with most champs, you'll get ko'd or lose a lot of health. I don't care who you are or what device you play on, either human error, or game bugs or glitches can and will cost you.

Second, Nightcrawler has his own dexterity, plus if you have the dexterity mastery that gives you a larger chance to avoid a hit, he has auto-evade and has strong special attacks, not as strong as Storms specials attacks but when does evading incoming attacks not come in handy?

Third, none of the champs that you listed in comparison to Nightcrawler or Mordo are very good defenders. So I don't know why you mentioned them. The discussion is about if you can't use 1 champ for defense anymore, they can still be used for AQ, AWA or questing. So the people who want to Rank Down, Magik or Nightcrawler shouldn't feel that way cause they can slide over to the attack instead.

Fourth, the point I was making was, if you ranked Nightcrawler or Magik (the 2 names that pop up most from people who want RDTs) and don't want to use them in the AW, then use them in questing. They can lead a really solid B-Team if you already don't have them as part of your main questing team. It's better than those who ranked up Ant-Man, cause now they're stuck and they know it.

Fifth, you say that there are only 4 champs who are equally top defenders and attackers, that is your opinion, I gave you mine. If you don't like it, that's fine. Not everyone has the champs you compared to Nightcrawler or Mordo as 4* or 5* and not everyone has the top "got to" champs that can do both defense and attack. I have Dr. Voodoo, Guillotine, Wolverine and Storm. I don't have Mordo, but I do have Nightcralwer.

Anyways, I wasn't saying I'm better than those who ranked champs just for defense such as Ant-Man. I was just sharing how I rank up my champs. i don't need or want rank down tickets, I ranked the best champs I had available at the time. That's what people should do. If a day comes they can't be used as defenders anymore, try and find a use for them elsewhere in the game. Also, rank 5 4* and rank 4 5* are great to have for arena grinding, right? There is one use out of 3 or 4 that some strong defender champs have in this game. The other uses could be AQ/AWA or Questing.

I'm sorry if my earlier comment came off the wrong way. I'm just really tired of seeing so many threads on rank down tickets, when we haven't even received the final version of the new AW.

This last point is the point I've been trying to make about the RDT issue. We use them in other areas of the game and Rank others if we need to. People have healthy Rosters, and in some cases they have spades of Resources expiring because they won't Rank certain Champs. It's their choice, but it makes no sense to me at all. Ranking is how we grow our Accounts. The game does not center around Wars, and if Champs are Ranked, they're still useful. Having more Champs Ranked is never a bad thing. That's my opinion. Everything from the Leaderboard to Ally Rating is determined by Rating. Champs are useful in Quests and the Arena. A while back, people were upset because they missed the Awakening Gem. Partly because people view Rating as insignificant. In terms of War, it may mean coordinating with others to see what Champs need Ranked for War. There is a whole game outside of that, and Ranking is not actually wasted.

We haven't received the final version of the AW. There could be a new game mode coming soon after, if 6* won't be in the next Event Quest, they could be in a new permanent game mode. Or maybe they'll come out with new masteries, new synergies or buff some champs. Anything could happen in the 16.0 update. That Ant-Man might not be as useless as some think if and when any of the new stuff i mentioned comes out.

Jon8299

JRock808 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

when does evading incoming attacks not come in handy?.

Ever. Its never handy.

It's why no one uses Spider-Man in attack despite his strong damage output. Auto evade is the worst thing that can happen when attacking. It screws up parries and intercepts and you end up evading yourself into a corner. I turn it off asap when I'm using nightcrawler.

He has a passive controlled evade. "While Dodging back, Nightcrawler cannot be struck by attacks. Additionally, whenever he successfully dodges an attack this way, he gains X Critical Damage rating until his next Critical Hit"

You can turn off his auto-evade and still have 2 versions of dexterity left.

GroundedWisdom

WOK wrote: »

@GroundedWisdom @Etaki_Lirakoi These are my thoughts without elaborating more in detail of my personal views.
The previous AW as voiced by the majority of players here in the forums, was far from perfect but good enough for us to enjoy and be excited about week after week.
The current AW as again voiced by the majority of players here is even further away from perfect and does not engage the players in any positive aspect. It has also been PROVEN through simple calculations that it is badly flawed.
I personally agree with both, and so far, all I've read is the same rebuttal worded differently to appear as if they are new insights addressing the many arguments.
May I suggest we all move this discussion in the direction of highlighting more of what could be done to fix AW's current woes rather than argue what has already been done?
IMO, many good suggestions have been give already, such as node changes, points adjustments, map adjustments, match making adjustments, just to list a few.

Far as I can understand from the threads I've read regarding AW, only a handful have steadfastly demanded it to be reverted back to the previous version. The rest have been trying to be as positive as is possible for them to express their concerns and while also offering possible changes that could benefit the game.

@GroundedWisdom , Im sorry but all I've gotten out of your comments is the same argument basically justifying that serious changes are not necessary with no solid evidence to support such views.

What I said is I'm for Diversity and the removal of Defender Kills. I am not in support of a revert. It's also pretty clear that's not happening. As for solid evidence, that's already been presented by the issues that have existed. Whether the current system resolves those or not, I don't debate. It needs work. Here are the issues I see that existed in the previous War schematic, and I will not go into whether they were issues or not because that seems to be the source of a great deal of argument. These are my views on what problems existed, and what the actual changes were set out to do has been stated by staff.
1. Monopoly on Tiers. Both as a result of the maximizing of Defender Kills accumulated from overpowered Matches and an abundance of the same overpowered Defense, and the various other forms of monopolizing (Shell Allies, arrangements to "peck off" lower Allies by avoiding fighting people in said agreements, etc).
2. Discouraging Players from participating by having a penalty for Defender Kills. Which may be a profitable way to accumulate Wins, and may be viewed as skill by some, but it translates into unavoidable roadblocks for others. It ruins the experience when you have to sacrifice effort for losing.
3. The existence of multiple, similar Champs in BGs. Not only monotonous, it also increases the challenge 10-fold. Various Champs and buffs have been added since Wars began, and Players have maximized efficiency accordingly, but it has created a very diminished experience for others.
4. Stagnancy. Outlined in the other issues, there was very little movement among Tiers, creating a separation between those who have said buffed Champs in multiples, and those who are trying to advance with what they have.
5. Overemphasis on the "Top Tier Champs". As a result of the drive for the same few Champs, Players have become set in a way of playing that has really affected the way they view all Champs. Not at all mentioned by any Kabam representative, it's my personal view that Diversity will encourage people to use Champs they have ignored otherwise. The game has over 100 Champs. It's not about acquiring the select few for domination. That's a very limited way to play. It means Resources are being wasted out of group conscience, and those Resources are meant to be used.
6. The addition of Max 5*s and 6*s. Which is not far off. People may view it as too easy, but these Champs will primarily be among select few Allies in the beginning. When placed in the old Map, the difficulty will be amplified greatly. That means in the old system, further roadblocks and stagnancy for others, and the issues I've mentioned are magnified.
7. It's become too competitive. I would almost say covetous. That's not a statement so much as my opinion.
8. It's time for a change. It's been the better part of 2 years that the game has had Wars, and it's changed greatly. More changes are coming. I have no doubt that the meta they've introduced is partly preparing for the future.

Now, as for your request for suggestions, my personal suggestion is to adjust the Diversity scoring to reflect the "tiebreaker" effect they've mentioned. I wouldn't suggest making Defender Kills a significant metric because it contradicts the idea of Diversity. That will be the bigger focus. If at all, introduce it as a small metric. Say, 5-10 Points per Kill. To encourage people to use more of their Rosters, I would suggest including more Nodes with small Buffs that accommodate a range of Champs. I would also suggest scaling the Paths like Expert Proving Grounds, where some Paths are harder than others. I wouldn't suggest increasing the difficulty too greatly because after all, all ranges of Players are participating. There's very little else I would change, except the mathematical balancing which I'm sure they could work out. I personally feel that the emphasis on Defender Rating is how the system is actually balancing itself with the mismatches and it will take time to do so. That's all I can say for now. I'm really not trolling or being controversial. My views and ideas are different than the majority. So, people can take or leave my thoughts.

Yuriboyga115

140023

Born

What I would like to know is, why on earth was this abomination ever implemented? It’s clear that the majority of people dislike this new war structure and the points system. Regardless of your motives, you’ve created a war that almost everyone hates. I have never seen such a dislike for anything you’ve released apart from V12, and this is actually pretty close. From the forums, to in game, to chat groups across many different platforms, this is just so heavily disliked that it almost makes me think you are purposely trying to kill the game off as quick as you can.

I have seen allot of people leave the game, some I have played with for years, and the ones who remain are only here cause they have invested time and money into it, not cause they actually enjoy the game anymore. How does it feel to have a game now that no one likes anymore? War was one of the last remaining true battles in this game, it was thrilling and skill based, now it’s just a big wank.

I hate when attack phase starts now, I just know I am going to be fighting some real crappy champs, yay a Vision! What’s next? Winter soldier? Oh great, next? HE? Jeez so boring, just want it to end so I can collect the shards.

If you want people to use more of their rosters, create another/new game mode that encourages and rewards it, but leave that **** out of war! We want our best defence to be placed, we want to use our best attackers, we want to strategies, and we want to watch the other team suffer. We don’t want this spread sheet war BS.

UC439

Jon8299 wrote: »

UC439 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

UC439 wrote: »

Jon8299 wrote: »

I don't know why people ranked up champs that are only good for defense. I ranked my champs for attack or questing and those who can be used on attack and defense. Magik is a great example of a champ that can do both, Agent Venom, Red Hulk (I use him for AWD to help with synergy, does get kills, and I use him for questing). I don't want RDTs, I wouldn't rank down anyone I have.

name me 5 champions that are equally TOP choices for both offense & defense.

Not any "maybe" or "canbe" used. They have to be TOP choices for both the scenarios.

Magik, Nightcrawler, Hyperion, Hulk, Mordo, Iceman. I gave you 6, you can use them to attack or defend.

read again I said no "can or may" they have to be the go to option. Give me a scenario where nc is better than wolv, x23, arch, rogue, storm, psylocke for attack. Same mordo, where is he better than voodoo, witch, gr, hood, guilly in offense?
Hulk as a defender? Really? Unless u mess up like crazy amount of time, hulk's gonna do nothing to u in defense!

There are only 4 atm (I asked u to give 5, bcz i know there are 4) - hyp, magik, ice, dorm(he is the go to option for power control matches, if u know how to play with him, bit less damage for sure)

First of all, you told me to list champs that are equally top defenders and attackers, so I gave you my opinion. Really if you mess up with most champs, you'll get ko'd or lose a lot of health. I don't care who you are or what device you play on, either human error, or game bugs or glitches can and will cost you.

Second, Nightcrawler has his own dexterity, plus if you have the dexterity mastery that gives you a larger chance to avoid a hit, he has auto-evade and has strong special attacks, not as strong as Storms specials attacks but when does evading incoming attacks not come in handy?

Third, none of the champs that you listed in comparison to Nightcrawler or Mordo are very good defenders. So I don't know why you mentioned them. The discussion is about if you can't use 1 champ for defense anymore, they can still be used for AQ, AWA or questing. So the people who want to Rank Down, Magik or Nightcrawler shouldn't feel that way cause they can slide over to the attack instead.

Fourth, the point I was making was, if you ranked Nightcrawler or Magik (the 2 names that pop up most from people who want RDTs) and don't want to use them in the AW, then use them in questing. They can lead a really solid B-Team if you already don't have them as part of your main questing team. It's better than those who ranked up Ant-Man, cause now they're stuck and they know it.

Fifth, you say that there are only 4 champs who are equally top defenders and attackers, that is your opinion, I gave you mine. If you don't like it, that's fine. Not everyone has the champs you compared to Nightcrawler or Mordo as 4* or 5* and not everyone has the top "got to" champs that can do both defense and attack. I have Dr. Voodoo, Guillotine, Wolverine and Storm. I don't have Mordo, but I do have Nightcralwer.

Anyways, I wasn't saying I'm better than those who ranked champs just for defense such as Ant-Man. I was just sharing how I rank up my champs. i don't need or want rank down tickets, I ranked the best champs I had available at the time. That's what people should do. If a day comes they can't be used as defenders anymore, try and find a use for them elsewhere in the game. Also, rank 5 4* and rank 4 5* are great to have for arena grinding, right? There is one use out of 3 or 4 that some strong defender champs have in this game. The other uses could be AQ/AWA or Questing.

I'm sorry if my earlier comment came off the wrong way. I'm just really tired of seeing so many threads on rank down tickets, when we haven't even received the final version of the new AW.

no my point is there are precisely 4 champions that are top contenders for both offense & defense.

if u don't have those exact 4 champions, then u just cannot rank up a champion that are TOP CHOICE for both (there are many better offensive options than nc & mordo, if u got those there's no need of using nc, mordo in offense ever, bt very few are better than nc-mordo in defense). but u can rank up a champion who is top choice for either offense or defense. n there's basically no need upgrade useless champions past 3/30 just for arenas.

say U got sl, gp, voodoo, arch all are top quality offenders, bt really no good in defense. alongside u have juggernaut, bpcw, spiderman who are basically no good offense, bt terrific in defense. then what do u do? u don't rank up those defensive champions bcz they are not good in offense? even when they can earn u wins in war as defenders?

Huluhula

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

7. It's become too competitive. I would almost say covetous. That's not a statement so much as my opinion.

LOLOLOL

WOK

@GroundedWisdom , you admit that the new system needs work, and I strongly believe the system should have been worked on before it was ever released. You begin with,
"What I said is I'm for Diversity and the removal of Defender Kills", which has been already implemented, yet you end with
"I wouldn't suggest making Defender Kills a significant metric because it contradicts the idea of Diversity. That will be the bigger focus. If at all, introduce it as a small metric. Say, 5-10 Points per Kill". Please elaborate so that I don't misunderstand it to be a contradiction of your repeated statements.

@GroundedWisdom "Here are the issues I see that existed in the previous War schematic, and I will not go into whether they were issues or not because that seems to be the source of a great deal of argument. These are my views on what problems existed, and what the actual changes were set out to do has been stated by staff".

"Whether they were issues or not" somewhat confuses me, because if you state you saw issues/problems, that is what they are, no? Or are you trying to imply that in fact they are issues but would rather not debate with someone who sees otherwise?

1. I will admit I am one who never really "dug deep" into the points calculations and have little to no knowledge of how significant defender kills actually were towards a victory or loss. IMO, monopoly on tiers seems a bit exaggerated. As far as some alliances being overmatched, who is to shoulder the responsibility? Seems to me that it could have been avoided if the developers chose to make adjustments to the match making portion of AW. Both matchmaking process and the "overpowering defense" were created by Kabam and not the players. All we did was adjust our strategy to best maximise the benefits laid out in front of us just as we are trying to do with Diversity.

2. Why would players be discouraged to participate? We all get to place defense, and we all get to go on atk. Of course Defensive kills would be a penalty, just as not giving a def. Kill would be a benefit. Same goes for getting an atk kill and vice versa. And I may be in err for speaking for the rest of the community, but when mentioning the Skill aspect, we do not define it as strictly AW defensive kills, quite the contrary, we define it as a combination of ATK(fighting skills), ability to "surprise" the opponent when placing defense(afforded by the game not exposing the actual champ on given nodes, and ability to coordinate ATK to hand over minimal defensive kills as possible while getting as many ATK kills and exploration as possible. There really is no skill involved with having defensive kills since the fights are performed by the AI, wouldn't you agree?

As for points 3-4, I think you're really reaching on those subjects.

5. When did it become Kabams decision on how and who I choose to play my game? I wouldnt be surprised if the next thing you say is that we will be required to rank up champs that we have "ignored". If another player or I decided to play the game with only 2* mutant champs, that is our perogative. Since when was it required for players to be policed on what we choose to do? And the "top tier champs" were not created by us.

6. Somewhat agree, but wouldnt appear to be to difficult to exclude players from using 5* max or 6* champs in AW for a brief period to let others "catch up" a little, or back to my previous idea, adjust matchmaking so as not to be as "random" as a crystal drop.

7. What defines and displays "Too competitive"? Should everyone just play AW with no emphasis on competition and have no winners or losers and everyone get the same rewards without having to put in any effort?

8. My feeling is that the community is all for changes. Only problem that takes away from it is the seemingly nonexistent quality control necessary to release a smooth mistake free update.

GroundedWisdom

I'm not going any further into it. I've shared my thoughts. The comment about it being too competitive and covetous is just my opinion, and it's based on the reactions of Players, and the tactics used within the system that are....questionable. Not the actual content itself. The rest I'm not debating. I've said enough.

Huluhula

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I'm not going any further into it. I've shared my thoughts. The comment about it being too competitive and covetous is just my opinion, and it's based on the reactions of Players, and the tactics used within the system that are....questionable. Not the actual content itself. The rest I'm not debating. I've said enough.

The entire point of PVP in any game is competition testing your mettle vs your opponents... it’s called alliance WAR not alliance friendship circle.