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Silver Surfer: Disrespected for far too long

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    SiriusBreakSiriusBreak Posts: 2,156 Guardian
    Surfer is for sure underrated. Probably because he doesn't crank out huge yellow numbers. However, his direct energy damage more than makes up for it IMHO. It's nice to see him get some love. That isn't to say there haven't been threads like this in the past, but due to the fact he got so hyped leading up to his release that anything less than huge yellow numbers and seemingly infinite utility was going to be a let down for much of the community.

    Much like other champs throughout the history of MCoC, their true power isn't always found within the 1st few months of release, just look at Corvus Glaive. Or more recently, there's been an notable change in opinion for Human Torch. So those YouTube videos that showcase a champion around the time of release can be a tad misinformative, and as a result, misleading.

    Personally, I don't watch those for that reason alone. I'll listen to the general consensus to gain some insight, but will not pass judgment until I have hands on experience with any champion in game. Going in with preconceived notions may leave you disappointed. Also could result in you sleeping on an otherwise very useful champ, in turn stunting your progress in a pursuit for someone you may never get.

    @KDSuperFlash10 very well written! I thoroughly appreciate posts of this nature with such depth. It's extremely extensive and I guess for some that can be a turn off. In a time when people communicate via shorthand and memes, posts like this are a breath of fresh air for me. That isn't to say that memes and shorthand are useless. Far from it. I just prefer something with some substance and this post has that in spades!!
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    Kill_GreyKill_Grey Posts: 8,666 ★★★★★
    Kill_Grey said:

    Sarvanga1_ said:

    Now theres a disagree spammer here too.
    These spammers are rampant these days.

    Since that "overrated champ" thread, i pretty much got at least 3 special ones for myself, unintentionally.
    Like I said.
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    Unio77Unio77 Posts: 2,539 ★★★★★
    magnus_xix said:

    One easy change I would make to him would be make it so that the energy damage from basic hits scales with modified attack. This would increase his damage to quite absurd amounts. Im more than happy to show the math if anyone cares.

    Please be my guest, I would love to see
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    GhostboytjieGhostboytjie Posts: 2,208 ★★★★★
    edited November 2020
    Words , Words Everywhere.

    I didnt read the thing ( i stopped at , "I am making")
    But i also think he is fun and like playing him. Get his rotation right and he is good
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    Unio77Unio77 Posts: 2,539 ★★★★★
    Dang if Kabam could implement that and allow the fursies and aptitude to increase the energy damage then that would truly make SS live up to his name, of a Herald of Galactus
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    BlackTuranBlackTuran Posts: 642 ★★★
    Masterpuff said:

    KDSuperFlash10 said:

    I am making this thread to appreciate a champion who has been disrespected for far too long. That’s right, that champion is Silver Surfer. People have called him a “lemon”, they’ve called him a “meme tier” champion, they’ve called him a “massive disappointment”. I am here to tell you that Silver Surfer is a cosmic god in MCOC. His power is yet to be fully understood by a lot of the MCOC community, and I hope this thread can help you understand why Silver Surfer is TRULY worthy of his name, the Silver Surfer, a Herald of the mighty Galactus.

    Now some of you may be thinking to yourselves, “KD, what is this title? Where is the ‘SILVER SURFER IS THE BEST COSMIC CHAMPION IN THE GAME - CORVUS COME OUTSIDE - THE APOLOGY NEEDS TO BE AS LOUD AS THE DISRESPECT’ title that we all expected?” Well, this time, I chose to make a very insightful thread because Silver Surfer is obviously not the best cosmic champion in the game, he’s not even top 4. This thread is not intended for comparisons between champs, it’s intended for an analysis of Silver Surfer’s mechanics and stats. I want to spend this time showing to all of you why Silver Surfer is extremely underrated and a very powerful champion.


    2 days ago, I took Silver Surfer to r5 for 2 reasons. No, NOT prestige, no, NOT AW defense, no, NOT stupidity. The 2 reasons are the following:

    1. Fun. Silver Surfer is the funnest (Yes, it is a word. Ask my 6th grade English teacher. Ah, the nostalgia.) champion I have ever played in MCOC. His rotation is so satisfying to pull off and his animations are ice cold. He is my current favorite champion in the game (Sorry Cable). I’ve been using him literally everywhere recently cuz I’m having way too much fun with him.

    2. Power. Silver Surfer is a cosmic god, with all sorts of interesting mechanics, damage, and utility. I took him to r5 because I have no doubt that I will be using him quite a lot in challenging content in the future for all sorts of lanes and nodes. And I will enjoy every single minute of it.
    I will be injecting every single cosmic signature stone that I acquire right into him, NOT for prestige, but for sheer power, as his sig ability helps in making his powerful buffs even stronger.

    Let’s talk about his mechanics.

    He has 3 buffs (power rate, fury, armor up) that rotate in a “power cosmic buff” cycle where you either charge a heavy attack for 1 buff or use an sp1 for 2 buffs of that specific buff type. After this, the power cosmic buff goes on cooldown and you plan for your next buff. Each unique buff on Silver Surfer (doesn’t even need to be from his abilities, can be from dexterity and external sources) increases his external energy damage per hit (other than his regular damage) by +273.63. Typically, I use a heavy attack at the start of the fight for a power rate buff to get my power rolling and start the cycle. When the power cosmic buff resets, I use an sp1 for 2 fury buffs for maximum damage. While I am doing all of this, I am building up power so that I can get to my sp3, which will give me an aptitude buff. However, before that, the 3rd cycle of the power cosmic buff comes, and I go for 1 armor up buff using my heavy attack. Now, I have an ideal buff rotation for Silver Surfer. I use an sp3 to gain my aptitude buff, which will increase the potency of all of my buffs by 25%, increasing my damage, armor rating, and power rate. After this, it is a repeated cycle of refreshing that power rate buff so that all of your buffs are active the entire time (The reason the power rate buff is shorter than the other buffs is so you can refresh it). After this, you throw sp2’s for maximum damage, and let me tell you this, they hit hard. In addition, the potency of the energy damage per unique buff from this attack is increased by a whopping +180%, making it hit very hard. Just as a tip, for a bit of extra energy damage, trigger dexterity right before throwing the sp2 for one more unique buff. For the cherry on top, the sp2 is unblockable (and it’s a buff, so you gain even more energy damage), so you can penetrate straight through that block! You also don’t need to worry about the buffs falling off because all buffs on Silver Surfer and the power cosmic are paused throughout the duration of all special attacks. I can only imagine that sp2 in the incursions with buff cornucopia (I will be testing it soon, do not fret).

    So that was essentially his rotation in a nutshell. Now to talk about his utility and his “hidden” utility. First off, every single time he throws a heavy attack to gain a buff from the power cosmic, he places 3 armor breaks on the opponent. These armor breaks aren’t as potent as say Sym Supreme’s armor breaks or Medusa’s armor shattered, but they’re nothing to look past. However, damage is not their intention. They provide utility whenever not just 1, but 3 armor breaks would be required. Emma Frost, a stacked IMIW, Ghost, and other armor champions/nodes/interactions are completely shut down with the flick of a single heavy attack. Now for a piece of “hidden utility” that some people skim past when reading up on Silver Surfer. His “phase” mechanic. Most people see it as just a mechanic so that you can charge a heavy mid combo or out of the blue to acquire a buff from the power cosmic safely. However, it is much more than that. You can use the phase mechanic to “tank” special attacks. You can time your play so that you phase at the moment of impact when the opponent throws their special attack. Depending on the length of the opponent’s special attack animation, you can phase through (meaning take 0 chip damage) through some or all of their special attacks. To put this into perspective, Silver Surfer can phase through the entirety of Winter Soldier’s sp2 (See MSD’s Silver Surfer guide). I’ve used his phase mechanic to phase through some parts of the opponent's special attacks, and sometimes the entirety of their special attacks. This, coupled with his incredibly potent armor up buffs, make him a very sustainable champion who will take very little chip damage throughout the fight. By being able to heavy attack freely without the risk of retaliation, Silver Surfer has a ton of control on the fight.

    Next for his pseudo-immunities. He takes -100% less damage from all incinerate, coldsnap, and shock debuffs. This is incredibly useful, as in the right matchup, you can essentially heal from those debuffs. Think matchups like Hulkbuster, Freezer Burn, Iceman, any 30/60 second DOT nodes of those debuff types, and all sorts of other matchups that would inflict those debuffs. They provide him with great utility, as he doesn’t just ignore those debuffs, he heals from them but more importantly, they increase his energy damage by a significant amount. In addition to each unique buff increasing his energy damage by +273.63 per hit, each debuff (not unique) increases his energy damage by +273.63. Get those debuffs rolling!

    On his base, Silver Surfer has +1131 energy resistance, which is a respectable amount of energy resistance, meaning he can get around some nodes that would deal energy damage to Silver Surfer with not as much damage taken as other champions. You can heal from willpower from certain energy debuffs due to his energy resistance, however the 3 debuffs he’s resistant to are the 3 most common energy debuffs in MCOC at the moment, so the energy resistance is just a nice added bonus.

    As Silver Surfer has access to many buffs and debuffs, he is both a buffed up and diss track counter. He can easily build up buffs with the power cosmic, making him a great buffed up counter. He can also easily place 3 armor break debuffs on the opponent, making him a great diss track counter.

    In addition, Silver Surfer has a vigilance buff off his sp1 that he can use to counter miss. However, this vigilance buff does not really play into his normal rotation, so therefore unless being a miss counter is needed, that buff will not be utilized.

    Let’s get into the numbers a little bit. Before we get into the numbers, I’m going to consider Silver Surfer at sig 200, which makes all of his buffs 50% more potent. However, he does not at all need to be at sig 200 to have great damage, armor rating, or power rate. Instead, it merely makes them even stronger, but is not necessary. I will not be considering the aptitude buff he gains off his sp3, which increases the potency of his buffs by +25%, so make of that what you will. His buffs can be even more powerful than what I will be describing below. I will be considering all of the stats as being representative of a 5 star rank 5 champion. Just as a disclaimer, the below champion comparisons are in no way intended to be comparisons between the champions themselves, they are merely comparisons between the stats.

    First off, the fury buffs. 2 fury buffs, which are very easy to obtain (1 sp2 and you can keep them on for the entire fight), provide a whopping +3283.5 attack rating for the entire fight if he is played correctly. This attack bonus is very, very strong. This attack bonus also does NOT include his energy damage from each unique buff, which does add quite a lot to his damage. To put this into perspective:
    Nick Fury’s fury buff grants a +4141.8 attack bonus
    Silver Surfer has a comparable base attack to Nick Fury
    Silver Surfer’s armor break debuffs (decrease opponent’s armor rating by 1111.77 all together) and energy damage make his damage very comparable to Nick Fury’s
    Now, this is not to take away from Nick Fury. We all know how strong those bleeds are. Nick Fury’s is clear of Silver Surfer’s, but against a bleed immune opponent, they do nearly the same amount of damage.
    Medusa with 3 fury buffs gains a +1311.6 attack bonus
    Of course, her armor shattered gives her a lot more damage as well, but Silver Surfer’s fury buffs are much more potent
    Each of Venom’s fury buffs increase his attack rating by +365.55
    Each of Ghost’s fury buffs off her heavy attacks increases attack rating by +1297.5
    Each of Ghost’s passive furies from phasing a DOT debuff increase her attack rating by +2595

    Keep in mind that all of the above champions except for Nick Fury cannot sustain their furies for the entire fight. In addition, none of the above champions can sustain their furies for the entire fight consistently while being at a high health level. So yeah, Silver Surfer can pack a punch while also being very sustainable.

    For the power rate buff, I’m going to keep it concise. At sig 200, each power rate buff increases his ability power rate by +22.5%, which makes it so that he can cycle special attacks with ease and keep the rotation going. Obviously, there are more powerful “power rate” or “power gain” effects in the game, like Hyperion’s and Vision (Aarkus)’s, but it is nothing to overlook.

    Finally, for the armor up buff. At sig 200, each armor up buff increases his armor rating by +3150. This armor rating, with JUST one armor up, is insanely potent. His armor up buff, which can be sustained throughout the entire fight, also makes him a Havok counter and one of, if not the best counter to that Diss Track Energy Adoption Havok in 6.4.3. Colossus, a well-known extremely tanky champion, with 13 armor ups gains an armor rating bonus of +3029. Silver Surfer with just one armor up beats that. With 2 armor up buffs, Silver Surfer goes to a Super Saiyan level of Armor, as he increases his armor by +6300. This value is nearly equivalent to Colossus with 27 (TWENTY-SEVEN!) armor ups, who gains an armor rating increase of +6291. This armor rating makes Silver Surfer extremely sustainable, as he takes very little chip damage. Punisher 2099’s specials hit like a feather into Silver Surfer’s block (you could also phase through some of it and block the rest). This armor rating does not require RNG, nor does it require more parries than presidents of the United States (Sorry Colossus). It requires 2 heavy attacks OR 1 special attack 1. ONE sp1. Mind-blowing.

    Silver Surfer is a very worthwhile investment of sig stones because each sig level increases the potency of his power rate, damage, and armor rating by a small amount, but it adds up. +50% potency for all of his buffs is a really nice addition to his kit. There are also not many top tier cosmic champions who need sig levels past sig 20 (other than CMM, although she is perfectly capable at sig 20). Therefore, Silver Surfer will be a very worthwhile investment of your sig stones. Also, if you care about it, Silver Surfer has the highest prestige in the game, so the sig stone investment will be very beneficial for you prestige-wise.

    Ok ok so KD, why isn’t Silver Surfer the best champion in the game?

    Well I’ll tell you why. He is a fantastic champion but has his weaknesses.

    1. His debuff pseudo-immunities only reduce the damage taken from those debuffs by -100%. That means that any bonus debuff potency nodes or interactions (ex. Human Torch incinerates) will actually make him take damage from those debuffs. Unfortunately, his pseudo-immunities are not like Corvus’, who takes 0 damage from the debuffs that he is pseudo-immune to (bleed, coldsnap, and shock). In addition, by being -100% resistant to incinerate, coldsnap, and shock DEBUFFS, he is not resistant to their respective passive effects. He cannot deal with E.M.P. modification, which any fully shock immune champion would be able to deal with. He cannot deal with Mephisto’s aura of incineration, as that is a passive effect.

    2. His miss counter vigilance buff does not play into his rotation. In order to fully utilize his vigilance buff, which is quite short, you cannot play in the ideal Silver Surfer rotation. Therefore, if you need a miss counter, you’re better off using a proper miss counter who can sustainably and consistently negate miss effects.

    3. Phase buff length - His phase buff can be incredibly useful, but it comes at a cost in that you will not always be able to phase special attacks as when you phase, it is not guaranteed that the opponent will throw their special attack. You can play around this by throwing the heavy attack right as they throw their special attack, but that could screw up your rotation if you chose the wrong buff from the power cosmic.

    4. The aptitude buff off of Surfer’s sp3 cannot stack. This is unfortunate, as it only increases his buff potency by +25%, which is nothing crazy (although it is nice). If the aptitude limit was changed, he could have even more buff potency potential, although it can be argued that his buffs are already incredibly potent as they are.

    5. Finally, some champions just have more to them. In late 2020, the standard for the quality of champions is incredibly high. Colossus has 6 immunities and is one of the highest damage dealers in the game. Ghost can convert every DOT on herself into potent furies, making her stronger and stronger. Quake doesn’t even need to touch the opponent to do damage, and can reduce the opponent’s ability accuracy by 100%. Doctor Doom has much more damage potential than Silver Surfer with 2 furies, in addition to being an incredibly powerful power control and buff control champion. To be completely frank, some champions just do more than Silver Surfer.

    Conclusion: Silver Surfer is an amazing champion with a lot of cool mechanics and tricks. He can deal a LOT of damage and has all sorts of interesting pieces of utility. He is DEFINITELY a worthy rank up in most Summoners’ rosters, whether it is for actual usage or for prestige. Silver Surfer will be relevant in this game for a very long time because of his prestige, but I hope that this guide will have convinced some of you guys that he is much more than just a prestige champion. If you have any questions on Silver Surfer or this guide, feel free to post them below. :)

    Peace out and have a fantastic day,

    KD

    Could it be... Respect for one of your posts? I’m in need of a silver surfer really badly, but just can’t pull him.
    I have a 5 star ss that I haven’t touched, you want him?
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    Sarvanga1_Sarvanga1_ Posts: 4,139 ★★★★★
    Kill_Grey said:

    Kill_Grey said:

    Sarvanga1_ said:

    Now theres a disagree spammer here too.
    These spammers are rampant these days.

    Since that "overrated champ" thread, i pretty much got at least 3 special ones for myself, unintentionally.
    Like I said.
    3 musketeers
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    Kill_GreyKill_Grey Posts: 8,666 ★★★★★
    Sarvanga1_ said:

    Kill_Grey said:

    Kill_Grey said:

    Sarvanga1_ said:

    Now theres a disagree spammer here too.
    These spammers are rampant these days.

    Since that "overrated champ" thread, i pretty much got at least 3 special ones for myself, unintentionally.
    Like I said.
    3 musketeers
    It's all fun and games...
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    SavageSavage Posts: 621 ★★★
    edited November 2020
    SpideyFunko said:

    Etjama said:

    Surfer is okay. People do hate on him too much, but it's not like he's a great champion. He definitely doesn't live up to his name. He is literally one of the most powerful characters in this game. But he's only got buffs/armor break/decent immunities for utility and his damage isn't anything crazy.

    And that’s fine! Not every champion needs to be insanely good, otherwise this game would have no balance.
    Yeah but Surfer was released the same year as Doom, Namor, and Thing who all got amazing kits that reminisce to their comic book powers. Surfer just feels like a generic buff champ. He needs some serious tweaking to be anything greater than a "fun" rank up or prestige rank up. He's been dealt a great injustice like so many of you claim Immortal Hulk has been given.
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    MattstafariMattstafari Posts: 688 ★★★
    Nice post mate, I have a 5* that I haven't looked at but, after reading this I'll spend some time using him.
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    sacoma_sack78sacoma_sack78 Posts: 142 ★
    I dont see the hate. Surfer has great uses and was my go to champ to use in the Hades event last month.
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    KDSuperFlash10KDSuperFlash10 Posts: 5,869 ★★★★★
    magnus_xix said:

    One easy change I would make to him would be make it so that the energy damage from basic hits scales with modified attack. This would increase his damage to quite absurd amounts. Im more than happy to show the math if anyone cares.

    I love this so much, if they did this he would rise to a whole new level. Great idea!
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    KDSuperFlash10KDSuperFlash10 Posts: 5,869 ★★★★★
    SiriusBreak said:

    Surfer is for sure underrated. Probably because he doesn't crank out huge yellow numbers. However, his direct energy damage more than makes up for it IMHO. It's nice to see him get some love. That isn't to say there haven't been threads like this in the past, but due to the fact he got so hyped leading up to his release that anything less than huge yellow numbers and seemingly infinite utility was going to be a let down for much of the community.

    Much like other champs throughout the history of MCoC, their true power isn't always found within the 1st few months of release, just look at Corvus Glaive. Or more recently, there's been an notable change in opinion for Human Torch. So those YouTube videos that showcase a champion around the time of release can be a tad misinformative, and as a result, misleading.

    Personally, I don't watch those for that reason alone. I'll listen to the general consensus to gain some insight, but will not pass judgment until I have hands on experience with any champion in game. Going in with preconceived notions may leave you disappointed. Also could result in you sleeping on an otherwise very useful champ, in turn stunting your progress in a pursuit for someone you may never get.

    @KDSuperFlash10 very well written! I thoroughly appreciate posts of this nature with such depth. It's extremely extensive and I guess for some that can be a turn off. In a time when people communicate via shorthand and memes, posts like this are a breath of fresh air for me. That isn't to say that memes and shorthand are useless. Far from it. I just prefer something with some substance and this post has that in spades!!

    Thank you, I'm really glad you enjoyed reading it! As you said, part of the reason not many people talk about him is because he doesn't have the shiny yellow numbers of Cosmic Ghost Rider, Colossus, Sunspot, etc. I do hope he can have a resurgence in the near future and he can get a lot more love. I think all he needs is a little tune-up like Human Torch's tune-up to have a resurgence in the contest. Maybe change how his energy damage works, as @magnus_xix mentioned for him to be appreciated by all. I love him as he is, but what he mentioned was a very good point on how to scale Surfer's energy damage with modified attack, which would take him to a whole new level.
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    KDSuperFlash10KDSuperFlash10 Posts: 5,869 ★★★★★
    War_Bird said:

    Remember back when Human Torch was called disappointing & trash tier? It’s time Silver Surfer made a similar resurgence!

    Yes!
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    KDSuperFlash10KDSuperFlash10 Posts: 5,869 ★★★★★
    magnus_xix said:

    Here goes:

    SS does around 300 energy damage per unique buff (based on a 6r2). In a realistic scenario u can have 5 unique buffs active at any time, them being power cosmic, fury, armour up, power gain and aptitude. Each hit deals an additional 1500 energy damage in total.

    So now to factor in additional modifiers to attack:

    1 fury increases attack by 50%
    2 furies would give a 100% increase
    2 furies and aptitude would give 125% increase
    2 furies, aptitude and max sig would give 187.5% increase

    1500+(1500×1.875)=4312.

    That would be the energy damage per hit with modifiers. It may not seem like a lot but the sp2 increases all energy damage by 180%. So 4312+(4312×1.8)=12075. Since the sp2 has 5 hits it would deal 60375 damage in energy damage ONLY.

    If u play ur cards right u can get 3 more unique buffs before throwing ur sp2, them being unblockable, precision (from dexterity) and miss.

    With 3 more buffs energy damage per hit is 2400.
    2400+(2400×1.875)=6900 :P
    6900 would be the energy damage dealt by each basic hit with the modified attack.
    Now factor in the 180% increase the sp2 gives to all energy damage, it would deal 6900+(6900×1.8)=19320 per hit. Thats almost 100k damage in ONLY energy damage. To not break the champion kabam would probably have to lower base energy damage to 200 minimum from 300.

    In comparison right now he deals around 21000 in total from the energy damage off the sp2.

    This is awesome! Thanks for doing the math man, I'm sure this would be a welcome tune-up to his energy damage by everyone.
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    KDSuperFlash10KDSuperFlash10 Posts: 5,869 ★★★★★
    Mattstafari said:

    Nice post mate, I have a 5* that I haven't looked at but, after reading this I'll spend some time using him.

    Awesome, go on and enjoy him!
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    KDSuperFlash10KDSuperFlash10 Posts: 5,869 ★★★★★
    sacoma_sack78 said:

    I dont see the hate. Surfer has great uses and was my go to champ to use in the Hades event last month.

    You should see CCP videos and Silver Surfer hate threads, there's a huge group of people who hate on him.
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    slackerslacker Posts: 772 ★★★★
    Too bad many ppl still look over big yellow number, not combine of yellow and red....
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    RasiloverRasilover Posts: 1,457 ★★★★
    Silver Surfer>Hyperion?!?!?!?!? 🤭
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    SungjSungj Posts: 2,112 ★★★★★
    A rational KD post with legitimate facts, numbers and in-game tested results to back up his claims. Impossible
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