Do y'll think this game would have been much more enjoyable if Tier list never existed?

Mauled · November 2020

Tier lists are designed for new players who've just pulled champion X and have no idea if they're any good or not, so they serve their purpose. Anybody who's Cavalier shouldn't really be looking at them for anything other than a really rough idea.

Lovejoy72 · November 2020

DNA3000 said:

Lovejoy72 said:
I suppose it is unclear though how to get newer players to think of those terms rather than tier lists?
It will be interesting to see how tier lists evolve as the game progresses into Book 2 and beyond. We could almost get away with looking at champions linearly up to about Act 5 or so, where "god tier champs" tended to be good for the vast majority of content. But increasingly the content is being designed around circumstantial fights that strongly benefit certain counters. Champions that can counter more troublesome situations are becoming more prized than champs that are good in general. How you encapsulate that kind of information in a linear tier list will be an interesting long term challenge for those that are connoisseurs of that kind of thing.

Are there folks out there that are designing tier list around peoples progress? Or lists strictly around specific utilities?

I’m still looking for a tier list designed around mediocre players. That would really speak to me.

Colonaut123 · November 2020

DNA3000 said:

Colonaut123 said:

Unknown_Traveler said:
Tier lists were never created with ill intent, so I never understand it when people talk about them as if they're personal attacks.

They have the advantage of being really useful to progressing players to build on their general game knowledge. I agree on the disadvantage being some people rank up strictly based on tier lists.

Excellent analogy by @TitoBandito187 . Think of them as a review of a product. You pull a champion and want to see what other people think of this champion to then formulate your own opinion. That's where you'd seek a tier list. Same way you would for something you're looking to buy. At the end of the day you've got to keep in mind that these are just opinions.
I disagree. Tier lists are made for experienced players, not progressing players. Quake or Ghost are useless champions for the unskilled. Seatin's tier lists assumes you've access to the sig ability, at high level, with the necessary synergies and skill level. Once you don't meet those requirements, so called beyond god tier champions become beyond thrash tiers.
I don't believe that is how Seatin describes his tier list. They've evolved over time, and as time as gone on he's done things like added qualifiers to his champion tier spreadsheet to alert players to things like champions that require synergies or high skill levels or signature ability awakened, so players can make those kinds of decisions for themselves, specifically to help guide players that may not have strong familiarity with how the champs work. I think he considers the spreadsheet a good starting point for players of any progression level, but just that: a starting point from which they should make their own decisions after looking into the champions.

I know, but it does inflate a champion. While players use tier lists to determine if they got a good pull, Seatin assumes you've everything available. I don't know which YouTuber did it, but he or she made a tier list based on the value of the champion freshly pulled. There were some remarkable differences. I would argue the latter list is more useful for progressing players than Seatins.

Colonaut123 · November 2020

Colonaut123 said:

DNA3000 said:

Colonaut123 said:

Unknown_Traveler said:
Tier lists were never created with ill intent, so I never understand it when people talk about them as if they're personal attacks.

They have the advantage of being really useful to progressing players to build on their general game knowledge. I agree on the disadvantage being some people rank up strictly based on tier lists.

Excellent analogy by @TitoBandito187 . Think of them as a review of a product. You pull a champion and want to see what other people think of this champion to then formulate your own opinion. That's where you'd seek a tier list. Same way you would for something you're looking to buy. At the end of the day you've got to keep in mind that these are just opinions.
I disagree. Tier lists are made for experienced players, not progressing players. Quake or Ghost are useless champions for the unskilled. Seatin's tier lists assumes you've access to the sig ability, at high level, with the necessary synergies and skill level. Once you don't meet those requirements, so called beyond god tier champions become beyond thrash tiers.
I don't believe that is how Seatin describes his tier list. They've evolved over time, and as time as gone on he's done things like added qualifiers to his champion tier spreadsheet to alert players to things like champions that require synergies or high skill levels or signature ability awakened, so players can make those kinds of decisions for themselves, specifically to help guide players that may not have strong familiarity with how the champs work. I think he considers the spreadsheet a good starting point for players of any progression level, but just that: a starting point from which they should make their own decisions after looking into the champions.
I know, but it does inflate a champion. While players use tier lists to determine if they got a good pull, Seatin assumes you've everything available. I don't know which YouTuber did it, but he or she made a tier list based on the value of the champion freshly pulled. There were some remarkable differences. I would argue the latter list is more useful for progressing players than Seatins.

I would add that Seatin's tier list becomes more accurate as your skill level, resources and roster size matches that of Seatin. If tier lists would truly be for the average player (whoever that might be), the tier list would rate champions based on their base value, assuming you can't maximise its full potential.

Rohit_316 · November 2020

That escalated quickly

TheMailmann · November 2020

Rohit_316 said:

HI_guys said:
It would be even more troublesome. People would rank up their first 5*. In my case beast. And then be left with no materials for when I actually get better champs.

This will slow down progression unless I can somehow magically realize tye different potentials of champs from just reading abilities
But how would you confirm that beast is a trash if no tier list was there ? People love avengers but in the game they are trash, i bet you would blindly rank up any OG avenger just because you like them and no way to confirm that they are trash.

well because we can play around with the characters. don’t tell me when you can’t differentiate the damage output between Sunspot and Beast. once you play long enough, you’ll be able to make your own tier list, even if it’s just in your head. because the champs were not created equally good, Kabam knows that too. some champs are good, some champs are bad. this happens in most games

GroundedWisdom · November 2020

It's not so much the Lists themselves that creates the issue. It's the societal pressure within the game based on them. I see it in my own Ally. "Don't Rank this, don't Rank that. Rank this and that." Usually in line with the most popular choices. That might be helpful on some level, but it's also crippling. People don't gain a knowledge of other less popular Champs. They also don't have as much enjoyment because they're being told who to Rank and who not to. I have, and will always be, a proponent of thinking for ourselves. If you like a Champ, Rank them. Use them. Make choices and learn from them. I don't stress about RNG as much at all either because I'm not putting all my hopes into someone else's value. Just my stance anyway.

kfd2010 · November 2020

Honestly, if the existence of tier lists is affecting someone's enjoyment of the game, then it's more on that person than it is the lists.

Tier lists are a helpful guide that you can ignore. In fact, I would venture a guess that there's a large sect of of players who aren't aware of/don't pay attention to the YouTube shows at all. If you're unsure who to rank up, consult a list. If there's someone you're dying to take up either way, don't consult a list.

So to me the idea that this game would be MORE enjoyable without guides meant to help people is a bit ridic.

Deacon · November 2020

why not just play the game as if they don't exist?? i mean because they're all just other people's opinions. you have every right to form your own.

GroundedWisdom · November 2020

That may be true if it were seen as just a simple guide. That's not the case most commonly. It's become almost biblical to classify Champs as "God Tier, Garbage", and the classifications in between. (No idea what Beyond God Tier even means by definition.)
It's even to the point that people assume Kabam makes those classifications themselves, and intentionally creates Champions based on the God Tier scale. While they've always asserted that some Champs will have strengths that others don't, that's never been a scale they've endorsed. The Tier List is one thing. The devaluing of anything that isn't pre-approved is another.

LeNoirFaineant · November 2020

I don't know anyone who ranks based on the tier lists. People rank champs that they find useful and the top champs on tier lists are there because they are useful. I can't imagine that some YouTuber's tier list has marred the enjoyment of the game for anyone.

Ja1970 · November 2020

Yes and No, certain champs r needed to clear content and certain paths at harder points in game, but outside of that, don't hesitate to rank up champs u may have loved in comics. I took 5* to rank 5 used a skill ag on him over Aegon, can care less about labyrinth. Took 6* black bolt to r2, may even take him to r3. If u r in an alliance that tells u who to rank up get the hell out of there. Play this game to enjoy it not be stressed.

Ja1970 · November 2020

5* DD to r5

Rohit_316 · November 2020

Busterhymen82 said:
Tier lists are just some dudes opinion on who they think is good..i was aware of tier lists when i first started playing and went ahead and maxed out my 4* howard the duck because i liked using him..dont let someone elses list control you on how you play..its just a game anyways

If only people treat it like a game ..i see people mood getting impacted when they Pull Doom and then if they pull Karnak ..how quick the game can manipulate someone's mind is beyond me...

kfd2010 · November 2020

GroundedWisdom said:
That may be true if it were seen as just a simple guide. That's not the case most commonly. It's become almost biblical to classify Champs as "God Tier, Garbage", and the classifications in between. (No idea what Beyond God Tier even means by definition.)
It's even to the point that people assume Kabam makes those classifications themselves, and intentionally creates Champions based on the God Tier scale. While they've always asserted that some Champs will have strengths that others don't, that's never been a scale they've endorsed. The Tier List is one thing. The devaluing of anything that isn't pre-approved is another.

Seeing them as Biblical is buying into something that's not there. I'm not saying you're wrong that people look that way. But that's not the fault of the person making a tier list. If someone wants to put way too much stock into what one or a handful of people think of champs to the point it hinders their enjoyment, that's their own issue.

There's nothing about making a tier list (and I mainly watch Seatin's videos and know he always prefaces with that this is his opinion) that impacts this game in a way that you can't ignore it. It's something that can be completely tuned out if so chosen. If someone like a champ that lands in a "meme tier" category, they can still rank them up and have fun with that champ. Nothing is being devalued just because others dont think that champion is worth much.

GroundedWisdom · November 2020

HI_guys said:

GroundedWisdom said:
That may be true if it were seen as just a simple guide. That's not the case most commonly. It's become almost biblical to classify Champs as "God Tier, Garbage", and the classifications in between. (No idea what Beyond God Tier even means by definition.)
It's even to the point that people assume Kabam makes those classifications themselves, and intentionally creates Champions based on the God Tier scale. While they've always asserted that some Champs will have strengths that others don't, that's never been a scale they've endorsed. The Tier List is one thing. The devaluing of anything that isn't pre-approved is another.
I'll digress from the topic and say that BGT s are chahiye that are just ridiculously powerful. Like Aegon at 999 combo or nick with 15 charged. Or Doom who just ignored the opponents abilitie's and Quake

No, I get it. It's just that the purpose of said Tier was to denote the "best". If you were going to have such a list, they would just be in the top. Rather than "Bestest Best".

kfd2010 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
That may be true if it were seen as just a simple guide. That's not the case most commonly. It's become almost biblical to classify Champs as "God Tier, Garbage", and the classifications in between. (No idea what Beyond God Tier even means by definition.)
It's even to the point that people assume Kabam makes those classifications themselves, and intentionally creates Champions based on the God Tier scale. While they've always asserted that some Champs will have strengths that others don't, that's never been a scale they've endorsed. The Tier List is one thing. The devaluing of anything that isn't pre-approved is another.
Seeing them as Biblical is buying into something that's not there. I'm not saying you're wrong that people look that way. But that's not the fault of the person making a tier list. If someone wants to put way too much stock into what one or a handful of people think of champs to the point it hinders their enjoyment, that's their own issue.

There's nothing about making a tier list (and I mainly watch Seatin's videos and know he always prefaces with that this is his opinion) that impacts this game in a way that you can't ignore it. It's something that can be completely tuned out if so chosen. If someone like a champ that lands in a "meme tier" category, they can still rank them up and have fun with that champ. Nothing is being devalued just because others dont think that champion is worth much.

Well, yes and no. The lists themselves don't pose the problem. Any one of us could form an opinion. He's an influencer. Over 200k (almost 300k) people are subscribed to him, and a number of them are quite fanatical. There's a certain suggestive layer to that which affects people. Having a platform influences people. Not enough people think for themselves. Not enough by far. So the issue is not literally the lists themselves. It's their influence on the choices people make.

kfd2010 · November 2020

GroundedWisdom said:

HI_guys said:

GroundedWisdom said:
That may be true if it were seen as just a simple guide. That's not the case most commonly. It's become almost biblical to classify Champs as "God Tier, Garbage", and the classifications in between. (No idea what Beyond God Tier even means by definition.)
It's even to the point that people assume Kabam makes those classifications themselves, and intentionally creates Champions based on the God Tier scale. While they've always asserted that some Champs will have strengths that others don't, that's never been a scale they've endorsed. The Tier List is one thing. The devaluing of anything that isn't pre-approved is another.
I'll digress from the topic and say that BGT s are chahiye that are just ridiculously powerful. Like Aegon at 999 combo or nick with 15 charged. Or Doom who just ignored the opponents abilitie's and Quake
No, I get it. It's just that the purpose of said Tier was to denote the "best". If you were going to have such a list, they would just be in the top. Rather than "Bestest Best".
kfd2010 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
That may be true if it were seen as just a simple guide. That's not the case most commonly. It's become almost biblical to classify Champs as "God Tier, Garbage", and the classifications in between. (No idea what Beyond God Tier even means by definition.)
It's even to the point that people assume Kabam makes those classifications themselves, and intentionally creates Champions based on the God Tier scale. While they've always asserted that some Champs will have strengths that others don't, that's never been a scale they've endorsed. The Tier List is one thing. The devaluing of anything that isn't pre-approved is another.
Seeing them as Biblical is buying into something that's not there. I'm not saying you're wrong that people look that way. But that's not the fault of the person making a tier list. If someone wants to put way too much stock into what one or a handful of people think of champs to the point it hinders their enjoyment, that's their own issue.

There's nothing about making a tier list (and I mainly watch Seatin's videos and know he always prefaces with that this is his opinion) that impacts this game in a way that you can't ignore it. It's something that can be completely tuned out if so chosen. If someone like a champ that lands in a "meme tier" category, they can still rank them up and have fun with that champ. Nothing is being devalued just because others dont think that champion is worth much.
Well, yes and no. The lists themselves don't pose the problem. Any one of us could form an opinion. He's an influencer. Over 200k (almost 300k) people are subscribed to him, and a number of them are quite fanatical. There's a certain suggestive layer to that which affects people. Having a platform influences people. Not enough people think for themselves. Not enough by far. So the issue is not literally the lists themselves. It's their influence on the choices people make.

Again, that's not Seatin's fault. And I think that's where we're always going to disagree. Seatin probably has the most popular MCOC YouTube channel. (I don't know well enough to say if he has the most subs for sure but I'd venture to guess he does.) But it by no means forces people to do anything. He's not leading people astray or anything. He always drops a disclaimer that this is his opinion and if you like someone and want to rank them up, go for it. I also don't think he's encouraging any fanaticism.

If people allow his videos to negatively affect their gameplay, I put that on the player. Not the guy who makes YouTube videos of a mobile game. Again, that's where we're going to disagree. I think how you play a video game is on the player mainly.

SiriusBreak · November 2020

It's not the lists that are the problem, it's when people treat the lists as holy writ that a problem can occur. Yes, inherently more information = good. However, if you cannot acquire the so called "Beyond God Tier" champs, what good is it to you? Moreover, if you acquire the Beyond God Tier champs and cannot properly utilize them to their potential, again, what good is it to you?

A general consensus about the would be God Tier and Beyond God Tier champs is generally helpful to assist in making choices to further your progression to a certain point. However, here's what I typically ask my Alliance mates when they come to our Rank Up Recommendations group with 3+ viable options.

1.) What are you missing or what do you need more of in your roster?
2.) What content do you intend on tackling next?
3.) Will any of these help you with 1 and 2?

If you have a slew of high damage, Beyond God Tier champs that typically can wreck most fights, but lack certain key pieces of utility to cover more niche content, do you really need more of those? If you're lacking something you cannot find in your current top champs, generally you should seek that out elsewhere and build accordingly. You could waste a ton of time chasing a champ you may never get and in turn overlook someone quite ueful you already have if you follow those tier lists too closely.

Oftentimes it seems like people want to treat this game like it's a sprint when in reality it's a legitimate marathon. If you don't properly pace yourself and make good use of all the tools available, you may find yourself burning out. Progression plateaus are more likely to occur if you're putting extreme limits on your rank ups.

What's hard to get today will likely become easier to acquire down the road as the game progresses. So don't sell yourself short by following those lists to the letter. With well over 150 champs available in game, there's PLENTY of good options that will help you progress, and in turn, increase the chances of allocating more of those highly sought after champs.

In conclusion, there's nothing intrinsically good or bad in regards to the Tier Lists themselves. It's what people do with them that can be problematic at best. Placing too much stock in a handful of player's opinions can potentially be detrimental to your progression in this game. It's all about maintaining the balance in my opinion. So would the game be more enjoyable without Tier lists? The answer depends on the player is what I'm seeing. Can be both yes and no by all accounts.

Rockypantherx · November 2020

Right, so what I’m mainly seeing in this thread is that tier lists aren’t really the problem, it’s the people that use them like a holy book that are the main issue.

So. How do we fix that? Can we fix that? There’s no real point just whining or arguing over it, solutions are what we need. Is removing tier lists the answer?

I don’t think so. Firstly because I do think they can be a useful tool for newer players as a rough guide. But also, as I mentioned in my previous comment, they promote discussion. That’s what I love about this game, and forum to an extent. Analysing a champ, comparing it, arguing pros and cons

Is there much else we can do other than disclaimers? Honestly, in my experience, it’s part of the human condition to just...blindly follow things for lack of a better term.

I know it infuriates me when people just follow the popular opinion. But I don’t actually think that’s something we can change. I think diversion from just following a tier list occurs as a player progresses in the game, and most of us are probably guilty of it at some point of another

So what can we do? Well, maybe instead of berating or looking down on people for just following a tier list (something which I completely understand doing), maybe it’s better to just try and have a conversation. You know, outline why just following a tier list isn’t a good idea, and why it’s important to make up your own mind on a champ, even if it ultimately aligns with the popular opinion

So no, I don’t think the game would be better without tier lists. I don’t think the game can exist without tier lists. It seems like a natural offshoot of a game like this. So let’s just...you know...not be a**holes and have a discussion.

(Wow this was much longer and more serious than I thought it would be)

ch4rn · November 2020

All streamers have different opinions on tier lists, they should always be taken with a pinch of salt.
Good and trash champs existed before any streams decided to put them into categories.

There was a post on the forums a few days ago of a player pulling a 6* Omega, but stating that they hate him... Most would disagree with him.

It's all subjective so I wouldn't pay too much attention to tier lists

Rohit_316 · November 2020

This escalated quickly

Texas_11 · November 2020

HI_guys said:

GroundedWisdom said:

HI_guys said:

GroundedWisdom said:
That may be true if it were seen as just a simple guide. That's not the case most commonly. It's become almost biblical to classify Champs as "God Tier, Garbage", and the classifications in between. (No idea what Beyond God Tier even means by definition.)
It's even to the point that people assume Kabam makes those classifications themselves, and intentionally creates Champions based on the God Tier scale. While they've always asserted that some Champs will have strengths that others don't, that's never been a scale they've endorsed. The Tier List is one thing. The devaluing of anything that isn't pre-approved is another.
I'll digress from the topic and say that BGT s are chahiye that are just ridiculously powerful. Like Aegon at 999 combo or nick with 15 charged. Or Doom who just ignored the opponents abilitie's and Quake
No, I get it. It's just that the purpose of said Tier was to denote the "best". If you were going to have such a list, they would just be in the top. Rather than "Bestest Best".
kfd2010 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
That may be true if it were seen as just a simple guide. That's not the case most commonly. It's become almost biblical to classify Champs as "God Tier, Garbage", and the classifications in between. (No idea what Beyond God Tier even means by definition.)
It's even to the point that people assume Kabam makes those classifications themselves, and intentionally creates Champions based on the God Tier scale. While they've always asserted that some Champs will have strengths that others don't, that's never been a scale they've endorsed. The Tier List is one thing. The devaluing of anything that isn't pre-approved is another.
Seeing them as Biblical is buying into something that's not there. I'm not saying you're wrong that people look that way. But that's not the fault of the person making a tier list. If someone wants to put way too much stock into what one or a handful of people think of champs to the point it hinders their enjoyment, that's their own issue.

There's nothing about making a tier list (and I mainly watch Seatin's videos and know he always prefaces with that this is his opinion) that impacts this game in a way that you can't ignore it. It's something that can be completely tuned out if so chosen. If someone like a champ that lands in a "meme tier" category, they can still rank them up and have fun with that champ. Nothing is being devalued just because others dont think that champion is worth much.
Well, yes and no. The lists themselves don't pose the problem. Any one of us could form an opinion. He's an influencer. Over 200k (almost 300k) people are subscribed to him, and a number of them are quite fanatical. There's a certain suggestive layer to that which affects people. Having a platform influences people. Not enough people think for themselves. Not enough by far. So the issue is not literally the lists themselves. It's their influence on the choices people make.
The issue came because while there are very good champs that can be classified as " best", these champs just demolish the field.

And while technically the Beyond God tier are the best , it's just to show that you dont really need them (at the time. But now without them you're going to have a hard time) to do the content.

As in, Quake and Ghost and Doom will absolutely demolish Act 5. But the other "God tier" liek Havok, or stealthy and such still have to work through those quests

True, but when the content was out they didn’t have those champs available.

Do y'll think this game would have been much more enjoyable if Tier list never existed?

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