Why do guaranteed crits never crit after you've KO'd the opponent?

PgalPgal Member Posts: 39 ★
in General Discussion
Surely it's nothing important, however it is a weird mechanic.

If you KO the opponent with the first hit of Corvus' or Ghost's SP2, the remaining hits won't crit no matter what.
However if you do the same with a no-crit guaranteed SP, like Aegon SP1, some of the hits can crit.

I wonder what causes this phenomenon.

Comments

  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,581 ★★★★★
    It likely has to do with the Special being executed as all one operation.
  • Kill_GreyKill_Grey Member Posts: 8,666 ★★★★★
    Pgal said:

    Thicco_Mode said:

    Maybe because corvus and ghost have a 0% crit rate (I think?), so after the ko happens, all your abilities don't work, so they can't naturally crit, but since aegon has a natural chance to crit, he can crit

    That can actually be it. Would also explain why X-bones can crit after KO
    Plus G99 and Guardian.
  • Thicco_ModeThicco_Mode Member Posts: 8,852 ★★★★★
    hm that's weird because ghost has a crit rate >0 but corvus is 0
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,697 Guardian
    Notsavage19 said:

    After the opponent is knocked out, all present buffs, debuffs, abilities, and masteries are disregarded, hence why the hits post-knockout usually have lower damage values, due to the Summoner's masteries being disregarded.

    This means that a situation can happen where the first hit of Ghost's SP1 crits and KO's the opponent but the next hit is non-critical. Even then since Ghost's abilities are ignored for the remaining hits, she can crit naturally too (as far as my observations go).

    This is basically the correct answer here. The game didn't always work this way: it was explicitly changed long ago to do this, in part to prevent situations like both sides dying (which could happen if you killed the AI, then died to a DoT afterwards).

    We know this effect specifically targets "abilities" and "effects" because things that are neither abilities nor effects still continue to "run" after one side dies. Offensive and defensive power gain, for example, is not an ability or an effect and power bars still move. Adrenalin, interesting enough, is also not an ability or an effect, so Adrenalin can still heal you after the AI is dead. As far as I'm aware, it is the only way to recover health after the AI is dead, since all other ways of recovering health are an effect or an ability which are suppressed when either side dies (at least for players).
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • TheLegend27TheLegend27 Member Posts: 1,316 ★★★★★
    HI_guys said:

    Ghost does occasionally crit after the AI is dead. And I'll swear on my account that ghsot can crit without the precision passive too

    Yea, I've noticed my Ghost occasionally crit when I'm heavy spamming in the corner
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Member Posts: 2,817 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Notsavage19 said:

    After the opponent is knocked out, all present buffs, debuffs, abilities, and masteries are disregarded, hence why the hits post-knockout usually have lower damage values, due to the Summoner's masteries being disregarded.

    This means that a situation can happen where the first hit of Ghost's SP1 crits and KO's the opponent but the next hit is non-critical. Even then since Ghost's abilities are ignored for the remaining hits, she can crit naturally too (as far as my observations go).

    This is basically the correct answer here. The game didn't always work this way: it was explicitly changed long ago to do this, in part to prevent situations like both sides dying (which could happen if you killed the AI, then died to a DoT afterwards).

    We know this effect specifically targets "abilities" and "effects" because things that are neither abilities nor effects still continue to "run" after one side dies. Offensive and defensive power gain, for example, is not an ability or an effect and power bars still move. Adrenalin, interesting enough, is also not an ability or an effect, so Adrenalin can still heal you after the AI is dead. As far as I'm aware, it is the only way to recover health after the AI is dead, since all other ways of recovering health are an effect or an ability which are suppressed when either side dies (at least for players).
    Dang DNA said I was correct; I've been blessed 😩😤
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • SummonerNRSummonerNR Member, Guardian Posts: 12,839 Guardian
    Other than liking (or wanting) to see a bigger Yellow Damage number for the subsequent hits after KO, really doesn’t matter, since KO is KO.

    Note also that persistent Combo buildup champs (Aegon, etc) don’t get to count any additional hits from their SP 1/2 after the KO hit (maybe also not the KO hit itself too).

    And since I’m rambling, pertaining to @DNA3000 mentioning non-existent dual-KO of both champs during SP's, yes that's why once the opponent is KO, then no additional damage should befall onto you for the rest of the SP (DoT, post-hit return damage, etc). ** Raises an interesting speculation that the “Ticks” during the fight like from DoT must actually be taking place as ALTERNATING TICKS (so like 4 Ticks per second, 2 on each... opponent/you/opponent/you) Otherwise there might potentially be a case where Bleed/etc Ticks on both players could actually cause the final death of both opponents on the exact same Tick (which does not actually happen fortunately).
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • DrZolaDrZola Member Posts: 9,131 ★★★★★
    Pgal said:

    Surely it's nothing important, however it is a weird mechanic.

    If you KO the opponent with the first hit of Corvus' or Ghost's SP2, the remaining hits won't crit no matter what.
    However if you do the same with a no-crit guaranteed SP, like Aegon SP1, some of the hits can crit.

    I wonder what causes this phenomenon.

    Why would anyone want to be a bully who crits someone who’s already KO’ing?

    Dr. Zola
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,697 Guardian
    SummonerNR said:

    Other than liking (or wanting) to see a bigger Yellow Damage number for the subsequent hits after KO, really doesn’t matter, since KO is KO.

    Note also that persistent Combo buildup champs (Aegon, etc) don’t get to count any additional hits from their SP 1/2 after the KO hit (maybe also not the KO hit itself too).

    And since I’m rambling, pertaining to @DNA3000 mentioning non-existent dual-KO of both champs during SP's, yes that's why once the opponent is KO, then no additional damage should befall onto you for the rest of the SP (DoT, post-hit return damage, etc). ** Raises an interesting speculation that the “Ticks” during the fight like from DoT must actually be taking place as ALTERNATING TICKS (so like 4 Ticks per second, 2 on each... opponent/you/opponent/you) Otherwise there might potentially be a case where Bleed/etc Ticks on both players could actually cause the final death of both opponents on the exact same Tick (which does not actually happen fortunately).

    More likely the game determines if a target dies every time it does a damage calculation, and if the thing it is calculating now reaches zero it sets a flag. Once that flag is set, all future damage calculations are bypassed. So since the game client can only calculate one thing at a time, one entity must die first, even if all the effects happen "simultaneously."
  • YoMovesYoMoves Member Posts: 1,283 ★★★★
    Thicco_Mode said:

    Maybe because corvus and ghost have a 0% crit rate (I think?), so after the ko happens, all your abilities don't work, so they can't naturally crit, but since aegon has a natural chance to crit, he can crit

    This is inaccurate, I have seen Corvus crits after death.

    Also Aegon has a base 0% crit rate.
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • MCOCHazzaMCOCHazza Member Posts: 891 ★★★
    edited December 2020
    DNA3000 said:

    Notsavage19 said:

    After the opponent is knocked out, all present buffs, debuffs, abilities, and masteries are disregarded, hence why the hits post-knockout usually have lower damage values, due to the Summoner's masteries being disregarded.

    This means that a situation can happen where the first hit of Ghost's SP1 crits and KO's the opponent but the next hit is non-critical. Even then since Ghost's abilities are ignored for the remaining hits, she can crit naturally too (as far as my observations go).

    This is basically the correct answer here. The game didn't always work this way: it was explicitly changed long ago to do this, in part to prevent situations like both sides dying (which could happen if you killed the AI, then died to a DoT afterwards).

    We know this effect specifically targets "abilities" and "effects" because things that are neither abilities nor effects still continue to "run" after one side dies. Offensive and defensive power gain, for example, is not an ability or an effect and power bars still move. Adrenalin, interesting enough, is also not an ability or an effect, so Adrenalin can still heal you after the AI is dead. As far as I'm aware, it is the only way to recover health after the AI is dead, since all other ways of recovering health are an effect or an ability which are suppressed when either side dies (at least for players).
    I agree with 99% of this post except for the Adrenaline part. When the opponent is KO’d, you can visually see you still healing from it. However if you go into the next fight, I’ve found that you enter the fight with the same health that you ended the fight with, excluding the health gained from adrenaline after the fight was over.

    As an example, you’re on 20% health, and you finish the matchup. But after the KO, the special attack you used, brings you up to 25% because of adrenaline. You can see that before the victory animation, you’re at 25%. But entering the next fight, you’re only on 20%.

    This could be wrong but it’s what I’ve found.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Member Posts: 5,984 ★★★★★
    edited December 2020
    This is an interesting thread.

    Not wishing to derail it, but have other people noticed the phenomenon of persisting graphics during a victory animation? I presume it's caused by the same post-KO programming.

    A couple of times I've KO'd the opponent in the middle of them throwing a Special Attack (with a DoT effect) and had unexpected integration of the Special Attack into the victory animation.

    For example, Human Torch dying mid-SP1, and my champ posing in the midst of flying blasts of fire.

    My favourite (wish I'd got a screenshot) was trying out Falcon post-buff against Mr Fantastic, who died from bleed damage mid-SP2. Falcon did his victory animation standing in the middle of Fantastic's SP2 Energy Cage.
Sign In or Register to comment.