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Immortal Abom Lionheart Broken Interaction Path 1 AW

tafretafre Posts: 542 ★★★★
edited February 9 in Strategy and Tips
First of all I will share the node below so everybody can see the description.



As the node states, whenever healing is reduced or reversed by a debuff the potency of the regens increases and the attacker gets passive degen. Immortal Abom or ibom, on this node is an extremely niche fight. First of all you would need a poison immune because of his base kit. On top of that, ibom inflicts self poisons and since there is Lionheart, he degens you each time a self poison is applied on him. Furthermore, an awakened ibom starts off with 3 self poisons so you degen from the start and ibom has 300% more potent regen including willpower healing and buffet.

The only 2 reliable counters I can think of are Quake and Gulk. Maybe AA with good neuro RNG, Ghost with tech boosts+Hood and Warlock with very slow parry heavy gameplay and heavy boosts since the degen from lionheart is unavoidable. On top of that there is buffet to consider as well. Feel free to add more counters if you can think of more.

So my question is this: Why does such a niche fight exist? The poison debuff/Lionheart interaction should be reviewed to make this a fair fight otherwise it is too much to consider for a single fight. The degen is pretty much unavoidable and deals around 20% so you would die in around 50 hits just from the self inflict poison applying and causing unavoidable degen from Lionheart.

*** I feel the need to add this final disclaimer, yes the counters I wrote can do this fight with good gameplay but the requirements are far too steep to have only a few counters.
Post edited by Kabam Ahab on
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Comments

  • SpideyFunkoSpideyFunko Posts: 18,232 ★★★★★
    jesus that looks horrible
  • pseudosanepseudosane Posts: 1,522 ★★★★★
    Yeah it is a horrible fight. Omega and rulk are also options but rulk gets to be too slow. G99 is also an option (has to be ramped).
    Quake is slow because those poisons give him physical resistance.
  • danielmathdanielmath Posts: 3,435 ★★★★★
    won't he be unable to trigger the poisons against quake since you're not hitting him?
  • Campo4Campo4 Posts: 141
    I agree - broken is the only way I can describe it. Lionheart was created before there was a champion that puts non-damaging poisons on himself in his base kit and must be reviewed!

    Every 10 hits a new self-inflicted poison applies to iBom causing passive degen to the attacker. Really limits conventional options.

    The constant 300% heal means one buffet proc is 45% of his modified health back instantly.

    Also, when quaking, the free 300% willpower heal means you are barely doing damage unless you are boosted.

    Champions placed there with suicides get the 300% willpower heal as well, however the poison at least does damage on them, whereas iBom takes no poison damage, so it's just a free heal, and then quake's stuns and concussions cause even more heal (a 5/65 is healing for 800+ per tick when concussions, stuns, and poisons are on during her aftershock). Despair 3/3 doesn't come into play that much because the heal is already 300% so despair barely makes a dent.

    And as Tafre mentioned the only heal block champion that can counter degen is Ghulk with face me. AA, if your neuros don't stay on all match, AA will either be poisoned to death or degened to death.
  • Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 1,032 ★★★★
    edited February 8
    Don’t know how this interaction would work, but how about AA? The regen is blocked by a passive once you get the neurotoxins in place, plus you’ll reduce his ability accuracy to mitigate poisons being placed on you. Make those self-poisons work against him and consume them by turning them into neurotoxins, could be very effective.

    EDIT: just reread and noticed AA was mentioned. But it’s less dependent on RNG since ibom has poisons in place for you to work with from the start.
  • tafretafre Posts: 542 ★★★★

    won't he be unable to trigger the poisons against quake since you're not hitting him?

    Yes but that is not the point I am trying to make. To answer your question, yes Quake can do it but even with the boosts it is a long fight. He heals around 800+ health per tick when the concussion and stun applies and has constant 600+ healing per tick during the heavy charge and self poisons because of the 300% more potent healing.

    My main point was that the self poisons and Lionheart interaction being broken. Unavoidable degen and very little counters that require perfect gameplay.
  • tafretafre Posts: 542 ★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    Don’t know how this interaction would work, but how about AA? The regen is blocked by a passive once you get the neurotoxins in place, plus you’ll reduce his ability accuracy to mitigate poisons being placed on you. Make those self-poisons work against him and consume them by turning them into neurotoxins, could be very effective.

    EDIT: just reread and noticed AA was mentioned. But it’s less dependent on RNG since ibom has poisons in place for you to work with from the start.

    Yes but if RNG fails you, you would die because of the unavoidable degen from Lionheart because you also apply poison debuffs with AA. Sure he would work but like I said before it is not the point I am trying to make, the interaction is broken because you get dealt unavoidable degen damage and 300% more potent healing the entire fight.
  • Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 1,032 ★★★★
    tafre said:

    Wicket329 said:

    Don’t know how this interaction would work, but how about AA? The regen is blocked by a passive once you get the neurotoxins in place, plus you’ll reduce his ability accuracy to mitigate poisons being placed on you. Make those self-poisons work against him and consume them by turning them into neurotoxins, could be very effective.

    EDIT: just reread and noticed AA was mentioned. But it’s less dependent on RNG since ibom has poisons in place for you to work with from the start.

    Yes but if RNG fails you, you would die because of the unavoidable degen from Lionheart because you also apply poison debuffs with AA. Sure he would work but like I said before it is not the point I am trying to make, the interaction is broken because you get dealt unavoidable degen damage and 300% more potent healing the entire fight.
    No, because the opponent is passively heal blocked by a single neurotoxin. If I understand the interaction properly, the passives will lock it at 0% and nothing else will mess with it. So placing additional poisons shouldn’t actually alter the regen rate and therefore won’t trigger the punitive side of Lionheart. Additionally, 300% regen of 0 is still 0.

    This is a top tier alliance war fight. The nodes are supposed to require niche counters. I agree that this one is particularly punitive and stuff like this is why I’m sitting this season out, but there are going to be interactions like this at that level.
  • Campo4Campo4 Posts: 141
    Wicket329 said:

    tafre said:

    Wicket329 said:

    Don’t know how this interaction would work, but how about AA? The regen is blocked by a passive once you get the neurotoxins in place, plus you’ll reduce his ability accuracy to mitigate poisons being placed on you. Make those self-poisons work against him and consume them by turning them into neurotoxins, could be very effective.

    EDIT: just reread and noticed AA was mentioned. But it’s less dependent on RNG since ibom has poisons in place for you to work with from the start.

    Yes but if RNG fails you, you would die because of the unavoidable degen from Lionheart because you also apply poison debuffs with AA. Sure he would work but like I said before it is not the point I am trying to make, the interaction is broken because you get dealt unavoidable degen damage and 300% more potent healing the entire fight.
    No, because the opponent is passively heal blocked by a single neurotoxin. If I understand the interaction properly, the passives will lock it at 0% and nothing else will mess with it. So placing additional poisons shouldn’t actually alter the regen rate and therefore won’t trigger the punitive side of Lionheart. Additionally, 300% regen of 0 is still 0.

    This is a top tier alliance war fight. The nodes are supposed to require niche counters. I agree that this one is particularly punitive and stuff like this is why I’m sitting this season out, but there are going to be interactions like this at that level.
    Yeah, this isn’t about complaining that difficulty of expert war map is too steep. The point is non damaging self inflicted poison and lionheart needs to be looked at.

    Does anyone have footage of AA here vs ibom? I have used AA on other lionheart opponents. If neuros fall off while baiting specials and you have to start over you will probably die. You can get poisoned yourself in addition to the degen
  • tafretafre Posts: 542 ★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    tafre said:

    Wicket329 said:

    Don’t know how this interaction would work, but how about AA? The regen is blocked by a passive once you get the neurotoxins in place, plus you’ll reduce his ability accuracy to mitigate poisons being placed on you. Make those self-poisons work against him and consume them by turning them into neurotoxins, could be very effective.

    EDIT: just reread and noticed AA was mentioned. But it’s less dependent on RNG since ibom has poisons in place for you to work with from the start.

    Yes but if RNG fails you, you would die because of the unavoidable degen from Lionheart because you also apply poison debuffs with AA. Sure he would work but like I said before it is not the point I am trying to make, the interaction is broken because you get dealt unavoidable degen damage and 300% more potent healing the entire fight.
    No, because the opponent is passively heal blocked by a single neurotoxin. If I understand the interaction properly, the passives will lock it at 0% and nothing else will mess with it. So placing additional poisons shouldn’t actually alter the regen rate and therefore won’t trigger the punitive side of Lionheart. Additionally, 300% regen of 0 is still 0.

    This is a top tier alliance war fight. The nodes are supposed to require niche counters. I agree that this one is particularly punitive and stuff like this is why I’m sitting this season out, but there are going to be interactions like this at that level.
    Oh I think you are wrong, Neuros only heal block the opponent and the regen rate can still be altered, hence more passive degen once you apply poisons. The heal block only stops healing the regen rate can still be altered via the poisons, he won’t be healing but his regen rate will be modified. Like you said 300% of 0 is still 0 and the poison reduction percentage acts like that. 30% reduction of 0 is still 0 but it is a reduction nonetheless and as a result, Lionheart degen.

    Neuros can shut that down that is true but still it is unavoidable damage at the start and bad RNG can cost you the fight. However, once again this is not what I was trying to say.

    I agree that there should be fights to challenge the players in AW, that was never something I was against but this is a bit too much in my opinion. This interaction simply requires too much since there are almost 0 champs that could potentially bypass or stop the degen, poison, potent healing and buffet all at the same time. That Lionheart degen triggers no matter what, only gulk can mitigate some of it with his base kit. Not only that, ibom also benefits from Protect, so another layer to consider.

    Ibom on 37, ebb n flow intercept, is what I think is a good fight. He can cause massive problems there but with the right counters and gameplay you can handle it because the node also helps you if you play well. This one we have right here has too many layers that can screw you over without rewarding you for good gameplay or counter selection. Simply put, self poisons and Lionheart have a broken unavoidable interaction.
  • Campo4Campo4 Posts: 141
    Haha I see this got moved to "strategy and tips" so I don't think anyone is going to address this node
  • tafretafre Posts: 542 ★★★★
    Kabam: Unavoidable degen in AW? Don’t mind if I do 😂.

    Seriously though, this should get looked at. You lose health no matter what and that is very costly in high tier competitive AW. Those potions are not cheap.
  • KerayZKerayZ Posts: 220 ★★★
    Anytime Kabam creates an interaction that is unavoidable damage it needs to be addressed. Doesn't matter if there is a counter or not its just a BS combination.
  • BonzodavidBonzodavid Posts: 587 ★★★
    Namor at max sig could be a potential counter.
    These are the times I'm happy I'm not in top tier war
  • tafretafre Posts: 542 ★★★★

    Namor at max sig could be a potential counter.
    These are the times I'm happy I'm not in top tier war

    Can't counter buffet or the poison. It is hard to sustain the damage reflect as well does not feel like a very safe option. Could work but highly risky, which is something you don't want in AW.
  • tafretafre Posts: 542 ★★★★
    HI_guys said:

    tafre said:

    Namor at max sig could be a potential counter.
    These are the times I'm happy I'm not in top tier war

    Can't counter buffet or the poison. It is hard to sustain the damage reflect as well does not feel like a very safe option. Could work but highly risky, which is something you don't want in AW.
    Does any champ work here without taking degen damage ? Even quake will take degen from lionheart right?
    No it is unavoidable at the start if ibom is duped. Only Gulk would be able to mitigate some of it from his "Face Me" mechanic but other than that you take the degen. Namor would be able to reflect it if you are aggressive but not really the best option since you will trigger another degen 10 hits into the fight and get poisoned.
  • tafretafre Posts: 542 ★★★★
    We had Campo do it with quake. There was a moment where he healed 52k from buffet lol. It is certainly possible to do but makes the fight super long because of the massive healing from willpower. Next time we plan to use AA against him I think. Bad RNG means rip tho.
  • Realm_Of_RahRealm_Of_Rah Posts: 424 ★★★
    Any reason Sig 200 Namor would not work even better than the listed options
  • tafretafre Posts: 542 ★★★★

    Any reason Sig 200 Namor would not work even better than the listed options

    Not poison immune. Does not counter buffet. You need to be hitting him all the time to reflect all damage and while doing that even more degen and poisons will trigger. If he turtles up you would die in an heartbeat.
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