Variant 7 is way too easy

For completion, at least. But looking at all the nodes, exploring Variant 7 looks easy as well.

Anybody else feel the same way?

Comments

pseudosane

As someone who went through all variants on a mini account with limited roster recently, i can safely say variants are just getting easier. There are no two ways about it.

You just start with the latest and progress all the way to v1. That’s how difficulty is. Nothing to do with roster progression.
Honestly, while I'm not saying V7 is super hard or anything, that doesn't mean much coming from you or any other higher end or even end game player. Lagacy and BG did one run to reach Cav with their mini's with basically **** rosters other than a couple high level champs. Doesn't make it easy for others.
You're end game. Done with Abyss, Done with Act 6 before nerf, Done with all content in game. And you do T3 wars at the very least.
So even if you have a limited roster, you have the skill to manage with it.
dude that just means that midgame players need to get better. With how 7.1 was, people rnt getting that challenged.
I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind
Boy am I upset I ranked up my favourite champions as 6*. I wish someone had told me how easy variant content was going to be so I could have left them rank 1 level 1 in order to use them in challenging content.

If kabam makes content that is hard for the people who want hard content, it is always in the game. If you can’t do it right away then you can come back to it. You satisfy the endgame by giving them a challenge, you satisfy the others by giving them something to work to and complete later.

If kabam makes content that is too easy for the end game players, then they are disappointed and never get their challenge. What’s the point ranking champions if you can’t use them in serious content? And then coming to the forums to voice concerns and they get told to just use 4*, an artificial, useless challenge that brushes off and doesn’t address any issue.

there weren't any new or unique nodes, and as u said chapter 3 was just long and boring with that crit resist

7.1 was fun. Add extra nodes that prevent miss, add true strike, and redo. Youd be surprised how many folks will struggle when they "actually" play the node.

TheTalents

I liked the content personally. Nothing can satisfy end gamers anyways (I'm included myself as I have all content done as well). They haven't been challenged since act 6 before the nerf and I'm not sure if there's much more they can do besides a pure revive fest. And if its actually hard enough to challenge end gamers the outrage will be triple what's going on now.

Wicket329

I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind
How are people left behind? Once they develop the rosters, they can also do the most difficult content. By that logic, Kabam cannot create any content since someone will always be left behind. There needs to be a goalpost for anyone to work towards. As it is, only AW seems to be the difficult content available for people who have explored everything.
Goalposts require "skill". Roster breadth need not qualify for that. Difficulty is also subjective, what may be difficult for someone may not be for someone else. How do you quantify that? Make it "difficult" that you hope the players will be able to gain those "skills" later on? "skills" reduce items but lets not forget, a bunch of players will not be doing act6 at all. These "hard" pieces of content are better off as limited time events with decent rewards, the main lure being "the challenge of it".
But people also need to develop the skill to tackle the difficult content. I am not saying there should be content geared towards end game players completely. But when I see the comment that you can use 3 stars to complete content, it just makes me wonder if the R3 rank ups I make are only useful for AW and not for actual content. I am currently exploring V1, its very frustrating, but its also very interesting to do.
Some folks will never be able to do it. Some will just skip it, is that a goal for content? @DNA3000 had a good thread about difficulty of act5 vs act6 a while back, id refer you to that. Don't get me wrong, I love tough content. I love it so much i have two accounts doing every piece of content completely differently. But in the end, if you artificially boost difficulty by adding punishing attack values/health values, that is no different than using 3*. Feeling content is too easy? stop using champs that "bypass" nodes (looking at you quake). Then lets see how many of the tryhards keep their statements.
The point is not that Variant 7 could be easy. Point is that I am going to 100% it in a couple of hours and after that there is anything else to do in this game.
To that id say, arena.
Ah, yes. Arena. That place where, famously, I can use my top tier champions and flex my skill as a player. Maybe come up with a unique synergy team for this 7000 PI Iron Man? Maybe I’ll use a clever playstyle to defeat this unnoded Jane Foster. The world is my oyster!

Less sarcastically, as a player who has completed all of the content in the game, what am I grinding arena for? I have no need for 5* champions anymore, so no point in aiming for a top spot. I have no content to clear that would need items, so a unit grind doesn’t seem terribly appealing outside of trying to build-up for big sale events like July 4th. And, I cannot stress this enough, arena is *painfully* boring. I’ve worked in literal jails that looked more fun than a weekend arena grind. I’ll pop in every now and again to complete a solo objective or something, but good god do I hate arena.
I mean, isnt that an endless form of content?
Is content meant to "flex" your skill as a player or give you enjoyment? What gives you enjoyment, the ability to flex, or ability to use different champions to finish a piece of content.
As to why you would grind arena, units. I have finished all content myself. I grind arena to keep units ready for offers, and the next abyss/ the next hard piece of content.
I am not a Kabam apologetic, but the company is giving out pieces of fun content now, which i can use multiple various options to complete. That for me, is fun.

I’m not asking for endless content, I’m asking for enjoyable content. If you choose not to see a difference between the two, I cannot lead you to it. You mentioned in another comment that you’re doing V7 with 4* champions. It is wonderful that you enjoy playing through content with lower ranked champions, and I mean that sincerely. I hope that everybody finds the thing in this game that keeps it fresh and fun for them. But I and many other players do not find that particular means of increasing difficulty fun or interesting.

My favorite thing in this game is the puzzle-solving. Discovering that perfect counter, figuring out a playstyle or tactic that gets you through a tricky encounter. I always point to the moment I figured out to backdraft intercept the Grandmaster during his final enrage phase, or when I managed to pull off the heal reversal takedown on Abyss Darkhawk as prime examples of times I really enjoyed the game. Figuring out how to game the mechanics in such a way to accomplish the goal gets that dopamine flowing for me. That’s what I’m looking for in new content. Fights that test my timing, or my positioning, or my game-sense, or whatever. That’s what makes this game great for me, and what I hope to see more of. And none of that can be found in the Arena.

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Stagedear85

I liked the content personally. Nothing can satisfy end gamers anyways (I'm included myself as I have all content done as well). They haven't been challenged since act 6 before the nerf and I'm not sure if there's much more they can do besides a pure revive fest. And if its actually hard enough to challenge end gamers the outrage will be triple what's going on now.

Thank you, for example they were going to make act 7 for "END GAME PLAYERS" and 90 % of the players came on the forums and complain about the difficulty and said they would boycott kabam after that we got the development diary and act 7 was tone way way down, and even act 6 was nerf now i understand that end game players need a challenge but how is KABAM going to please everyone, think about this when cav difficulty just came out there was an out cry about difficulty which is why its so easy now. It sucks i know we need a challenge but Kabam has to worry about the 80-90 % of players that will grab a pitch fork and complain about the difficulty, those 80-90 % spend money too so as a company they're in a tough spot please 20 % but upset 80% or please 80% and the 20%will do the content anyway and complain, the answer is easy please the 80 % they're in business to make money and im sure the more people are able to do content and pop crystals the more money they're going to make.

Pulyaman

As someone who went through all variants on a mini account with limited roster recently, i can safely say variants are just getting easier. There are no two ways about it.

You just start with the latest and progress all the way to v1. That’s how difficulty is. Nothing to do with roster progression.
Honestly, while I'm not saying V7 is super hard or anything, that doesn't mean much coming from you or any other higher end or even end game player. Lagacy and BG did one run to reach Cav with their mini's with basically **** rosters other than a couple high level champs. Doesn't make it easy for others.
You're end game. Done with Abyss, Done with Act 6 before nerf, Done with all content in game. And you do T3 wars at the very least.
So even if you have a limited roster, you have the skill to manage with it.
dude that just means that midgame players need to get better. With how 7.1 was, people rnt getting that challenged.
I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind
Boy am I upset I ranked up my favourite champions as 6*. I wish someone had told me how easy variant content was going to be so I could have left them rank 1 level 1 in order to use them in challenging content.

If kabam makes content that is hard for the people who want hard content, it is always in the game. If you can’t do it right away then you can come back to it. You satisfy the endgame by giving them a challenge, you satisfy the others by giving them something to work to and complete later.

If kabam makes content that is too easy for the end game players, then they are disappointed and never get their challenge. What’s the point ranking champions if you can’t use them in serious content? And then coming to the forums to voice concerns and they get told to just use 4*, an artificial, useless challenge that brushes off and doesn’t address any issue.

there weren't any new or unique nodes, and as u said chapter 3 was just long and boring with that crit resist
7.1 was fun. Add extra nodes that prevent miss, add true strike, and redo. Youd be surprised how many folks will struggle when they "actually" play the node.
it was fun but it was easier than act 6 completion. 100% act 7 didnt give me anywhere close to the satisfaction of completing act 6

I think he was talking about using ghost and quake. I actually don't use either champs. I never bothered to perfect them because I find quake too boring and while ghost can be fun, he is not the champ I like to use. So, the nodes you suggested will not affect my experience in the slightest. @pseudosane

GroundedWisdom

People are growing. Their Rosters are growing. What was hard before won't be as hard later. Also, there was a Survey regarding Variants and the feedback could have showed people wanted the emphasis on other things. It's fun. Not insanely challenging, but fun. That's not a bad thing. Is there a need for something geared higher up? I'd say so. A number of people are asking for a challenge. In terms of this Variant I think it's fine the way it is.

Wicket329

People are growing. Their Rosters are growing. What was hard before won't be as hard later. Also, there was a Survey regarding Variants and the feedback could have showed people wanted the emphasis on other things. It's fun. Not insanely challenging, but fun. That's not a bad thing. Is there a need for something geared higher up? I'd say so. A number of people are asking for a challenge. In terms of this Variant I think it's fine the way it is.

Just to clarify my position, I’ve got no issue with variants being easy for a 100% completionist player. I’m very okay with these being more geared towards mid-tier players, and have no desire to take variants away from them. I just want something more to push me at this point.

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DNA3000

Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.

It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.

TheTalents

Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.
It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.

Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.

If we made true end game content that would be great but the complaints would be a lot more. Players need to make up their minds. I'm open to content more similar to act 6 but when it comes to variants not sure I want that based on the rewards. I think a whole new game mode with multiple difficulties where Cavalier status is truly end game would be the best option if you ask me. Also, the rewards need to match said difficulty.

Palanthrax

It’s easy if you don’t get hit. There must be a lot of perfect players in this thread. The attack values are so high that if you get hit, your champ is gone in about 3 hits, sometimes less. I preferred act 7, personally.

TheTalents

It’s easy if you don’t get hit. There must be a lot of perfect players in this thread. The attack values are so high that if you get hit, your champ is gone in about 3 hits, sometimes less. I preferred act 7, personally.

When you have all content done you have so many revives in storage and health potions that if you die 2 or 3 times in a lane they still consider that easy content because its basically free items. They won't consider hard unless all their champs don't make it before the boss. Let me clarify that for those of you that think its about playing perfectly literally.

DNA3000

Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.
It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.
Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.

I also read them. I also wrote them. I'm telling you I have direct knowledge that such feedback matters, but only when it aligns with the devs own interpretation of how the game is being played.

Or to put it another way, what we say is feedback. But what we *do* is also feedback, and the devs listen to that feedback even more. It just isn't visible in a public forum for us to see as well.

Here's an example. After 12.0 did Dr. Strange suck? The overwhelming public sentiment was that yes, he did, and no one wanted to bother with him anymore. However, I was a bit skeptical because the one piece of hard data that I possessed said the players as a whole disagreed: his rerun arena cutoff scores. They were significantly above average for a rerun post 12.0, and significantly above other champs believed to be underperforming.

The devs know the publicly expressed sentiment, but they also have even better data than I have on how much he's actually pursued and used, or was back then. Which do you think the devs felt reflected Dr. Strange's true relative value among the playerbase as a whole back then. It was more the latter than the former. I'm not guessing.

pseudosane

I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind
How are people left behind? Once they develop the rosters, they can also do the most difficult content. By that logic, Kabam cannot create any content since someone will always be left behind. There needs to be a goalpost for anyone to work towards. As it is, only AW seems to be the difficult content available for people who have explored everything.
Goalposts require "skill". Roster breadth need not qualify for that. Difficulty is also subjective, what may be difficult for someone may not be for someone else. How do you quantify that? Make it "difficult" that you hope the players will be able to gain those "skills" later on? "skills" reduce items but lets not forget, a bunch of players will not be doing act6 at all. These "hard" pieces of content are better off as limited time events with decent rewards, the main lure being "the challenge of it".
But people also need to develop the skill to tackle the difficult content. I am not saying there should be content geared towards end game players completely. But when I see the comment that you can use 3 stars to complete content, it just makes me wonder if the R3 rank ups I make are only useful for AW and not for actual content. I am currently exploring V1, its very frustrating, but its also very interesting to do.
Some folks will never be able to do it. Some will just skip it, is that a goal for content? @DNA3000 had a good thread about difficulty of act5 vs act6 a while back, id refer you to that. Don't get me wrong, I love tough content. I love it so much i have two accounts doing every piece of content completely differently. But in the end, if you artificially boost difficulty by adding punishing attack values/health values, that is no different than using 3*. Feeling content is too easy? stop using champs that "bypass" nodes (looking at you quake). Then lets see how many of the tryhards keep their statements.
The point is not that Variant 7 could be easy. Point is that I am going to 100% it in a couple of hours and after that there is anything else to do in this game.
To that id say, arena.
Ah, yes. Arena. That place where, famously, I can use my top tier champions and flex my skill as a player. Maybe come up with a unique synergy team for this 7000 PI Iron Man? Maybe I’ll use a clever playstyle to defeat this unnoded Jane Foster. The world is my oyster!

Less sarcastically, as a player who has completed all of the content in the game, what am I grinding arena for? I have no need for 5* champions anymore, so no point in aiming for a top spot. I have no content to clear that would need items, so a unit grind doesn’t seem terribly appealing outside of trying to build-up for big sale events like July 4th. And, I cannot stress this enough, arena is *painfully* boring. I’ve worked in literal jails that looked more fun than a weekend arena grind. I’ll pop in every now and again to complete a solo objective or something, but good god do I hate arena.
I mean, isnt that an endless form of content?
Is content meant to "flex" your skill as a player or give you enjoyment? What gives you enjoyment, the ability to flex, or ability to use different champions to finish a piece of content.
As to why you would grind arena, units. I have finished all content myself. I grind arena to keep units ready for offers, and the next abyss/ the next hard piece of content.
I am not a Kabam apologetic, but the company is giving out pieces of fun content now, which i can use multiple various options to complete. That for me, is fun.
I’m not asking for endless content, I’m asking for enjoyable content. If you choose not to see a difference between the two, I cannot lead you to it. You mentioned in another comment that you’re doing V7 with 4* champions. It is wonderful that you enjoy playing through content with lower ranked champions, and I mean that sincerely. I hope that everybody finds the thing in this game that keeps it fresh and fun for them. But I and many other players do not find that particular means of increasing difficulty fun or interesting.

My favorite thing in this game is the puzzle-solving. Discovering that perfect counter, figuring out a playstyle or tactic that gets you through a tricky encounter. I always point to the moment I figured out to backdraft intercept the Grandmaster during his final enrage phase, or when I managed to pull off the heal reversal takedown on Abyss Darkhawk as prime examples of times I really enjoyed the game. Figuring out how to game the mechanics in such a way to accomplish the goal gets that dopamine flowing for me. That’s what I’m looking for in new content. Fights that test my timing, or my positioning, or my game-sense, or whatever. That’s what makes this game great for me, and what I hope to see more of. And none of that can be found in the Arena.

I totally understand the drive and need. But I also understand limitations to design and requirement of balance. I have also completed all pieces of content currently, and have nothing else to do myself. So i take challenge when i can, however I can. But, a majority of the player base enjoys "fun" content, and i do agree those are fun. Challenging content locks out a large portion of the players for the time being, which, while it gives them time to work on, can also be a huge hindrance to game experience. Case in point, Act6. Act6 is a huge hurdle, and even now, a lot of players just do not want to do that piece of content. That is a design failure, how much ever folks like us like that sort of content. Complaining does nothing to change that. I would thus rather have temporary content like the maze, drop from time to time. Arena is just means to an end.

As someone who went through all variants on a mini account with limited roster recently, i can safely say variants are just getting easier. There are no two ways about it.

You just start with the latest and progress all the way to v1. That’s how difficulty is. Nothing to do with roster progression.
Honestly, while I'm not saying V7 is super hard or anything, that doesn't mean much coming from you or any other higher end or even end game player. Lagacy and BG did one run to reach Cav with their mini's with basically **** rosters other than a couple high level champs. Doesn't make it easy for others.
You're end game. Done with Abyss, Done with Act 6 before nerf, Done with all content in game. And you do T3 wars at the very least.
So even if you have a limited roster, you have the skill to manage with it.
dude that just means that midgame players need to get better. With how 7.1 was, people rnt getting that challenged.
I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind
Boy am I upset I ranked up my favourite champions as 6*. I wish someone had told me how easy variant content was going to be so I could have left them rank 1 level 1 in order to use them in challenging content.

If kabam makes content that is hard for the people who want hard content, it is always in the game. If you can’t do it right away then you can come back to it. You satisfy the endgame by giving them a challenge, you satisfy the others by giving them something to work to and complete later.

If kabam makes content that is too easy for the end game players, then they are disappointed and never get their challenge. What’s the point ranking champions if you can’t use them in serious content? And then coming to the forums to voice concerns and they get told to just use 4*, an artificial, useless challenge that brushes off and doesn’t address any issue.

there weren't any new or unique nodes, and as u said chapter 3 was just long and boring with that crit resist
7.1 was fun. Add extra nodes that prevent miss, add true strike, and redo. Youd be surprised how many folks will struggle when they "actually" play the node.
it was fun but it was easier than act 6 completion. 100% act 7 didnt give me anywhere close to the satisfaction of completing act 6
I think he was talking about using ghost and quake. I actually don't use either champs. I never bothered to perfect them because I find quake too boring and while ghost can be fun, he is not the champ I like to use. So, the nodes you suggested will not affect my experience in the slightest. @pseudosane

If you have other content still remaining, you do have stuff to do. "easy" is a relative term. What would you find tough?

TheTalents

Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.
It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.
Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.
I also read them. I also wrote them. I'm telling you I have direct knowledge that such feedback matters, but only when it aligns with the devs own interpretation of how the game is being played.

Or to put it another way, what we say is feedback. But what we *do* is also feedback, and the devs listen to that feedback even more. It just isn't visible in a public forum for us to see as well.

Here's an example. After 12.0 did Dr. Strange suck? The overwhelming public sentiment was that yes, he did, and no one wanted to bother with him anymore. However, I was a bit skeptical because the one piece of hard data that I possessed said the players as a whole disagreed: his rerun arena cutoff scores. They were significantly above average for a rerun post 12.0, and significantly above other champs believed to be underperforming.

The devs know the publicly expressed sentiment, but they also have even better data than I have on how much he's actually pursued and used, or was back then. Which do you think the devs felt reflected Dr. Strange's true relative value among the playerbase as a whole back then. It was more the latter than the former. I'm not guessing.

I got to disagree. Dr. Strange was a huge champ back in the day and people who didn't have him always wanted him which is why the arena scores was probably so high. That nerf made him practically useless. Back in the day regen was all the ragewhich is why Blade ran the game for so long, also SW, also Dr. Strange. That is no longer the case but when strange's regen was nerfed people stopped using him all together for the most part. Arena scores don't reflect that. When it comes to arena you got to factor in hype, prestige, utility, difficulty etc.

DNA3000

Kabam's biggest mistake was letting people's roster outpace the content.

I think they should make more content like V4, except harder. Much, much harder. Hell, make an absolute hell-mode 3*-only variant. It'd give a reality check to people who bust through these things with God-tier 6r3, or even 5r5s.

If there's anything that rando-incursions have taught me, it's that most people suck at this game. It's incredibly weird handholding players with a trio of 6r3 gods, but it's less uncommon than you'd expect.
Everyone complained when 7.1 beta was first launched vs the final product. It was brutal some paths had only one counter. That is why it is easy now, have you done 6.2.5 it was worse than that. Wish they had more fights like the final boss of 6.4.6. They did say they are planning something harder for endgame players.
Miike said clearly in the past that variants are for endgame players. It clearly isn't that way difficulty wise, but they are supposedly the endgame target. How many times and with how much content can we say "no, not for you, wait your turn" and expect that portion of the playerbase to stay engaged in the game?

Conversely, why should all content be geared toward the midgame player?

Variants were targeted at endgame players, initially. However, end game players eventually moved past them, as the top of the game itself moved higher. The Variants still targeted a similar point of difficulty, and they've transitioned from end game content to upper-middle game content.

Labyrinth was end game content, now it is not really. But Kabam doesn't adjust the difficulty of Labyrinth to maintain its status as end game content. Similarly, the Variants planted a flag in the ground around where end game players were when they first arrived, but they aren't accelerating upward as fast as the players are for analogous reasons: the idea being that the Variants have similar rewards targeting similar difficulty. They are moving upward slightly (if in rewards moreso than difficulty) but at a much slower pace: the pace of general game inflation overall.

All content isn't targeted towards the midgame player, but a higher percentage of it is, because a higher percentage of players are in the midgame of progress. And this brings up a separate issue, the use of colloquial terms. Sometimes "end game player" refers to someone who has exhausted more or less all the content and progress milestones in the game. A literal end game player is hard to make content for because it is hard to create meaningful rewards for a literal end game player. By definition, they've done everything and thus don't need anything and all you can do is pile stuff around them like Smaug the Dragon padding his cave. But when we talk about "end game content" we're normally talking about a looser version of "end game player" as someone who is currently working on the last ladder rung of progress. In other words, he or she hasn't done it all, but they are working on the last thing(s). There's nothing higher than they are, but they haven't exhausted everything *where* they are. They might be grinding out the last paths of Abyss. They might still be building up their roster of R3s.

Most so-called "end game content" is targeting these folks, because they still have something to play for, and thus still have relevant rewards to their game progress, so content can be created with those rewards in it that makes sense within the game. Literal end game players also do this stuff, but it tends to be easier and the rewards less relevant, because everything is easy for them and everything is less relevant for them.

Rarely do you get content explicitly targeting the literal end gamers. It is so hard to generate rewards for them that are meaningful without being ridiculous, and remember that all permanent content that targets them today will be content that midgame players run tomorrow as the game itself advances. Those rewards have to be relevant to players that have everything, without being broken for players that don't in the future. It is just a problem that progressional games have with the literal (temporary) end game.

So most content targets the middle of the game because that's where the overwhelming majority of players live. And conversely much less content targets the very top of the game because it is difficult to make content meaningful to those players that will also pass the test of time as lower tier players catch up to that point of progress and it is no longer the actual end game.

Bugmat78

Objectively, is variant one harder, easier or the same as variant 7? What about the other variants?

My experience has been getting easier, of course in part to my roster developing but I always thought variant 1 is objectively the hardest still, which is why people still leave it to last.

I mean, when people say which variant should I do most people suggest reverse order, 6 down to 1, which suggest it’s been getting easier, not staying the same

It's not just that though but the effort: rewards are much better for the latest variants than the earlier ones. Who will choose to explore v2 or 3, over variant 6 and 7 with 25% t5cc on offer?

Sceptilemaniac

The paths are pretty easy, sure but I think where it balances out is the class restrictions. For example, I have no good mystic heroes so I'll have to wait or do it with mutants to explore. Also, I did the overclocked+arc overload path for completion with Aegon because I don't have any tech heroes above R3. So, yes completion might be easy but for someone with a roster that has completed 7.1, this still feels like fun (and a lil challenging) content. The only problem I have is that I would've liked some new wacky nodes instead of +125% attack straight up.

StevieManWonder

I did all of V7 yesterday and felt like it was a sufficiently difficult time for the type of content it is. Part of why it was more difficult for me than v6 and v5 is because my roster--which is fairly large and stacked--actually relies pretty heavily on Villians, so I didn't have many options for some of the paths. I enjoyed it very much, though.

unknown

This content has been removed.

DNA3000

Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.
It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.
Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.
I also read them. I also wrote them. I'm telling you I have direct knowledge that such feedback matters, but only when it aligns with the devs own interpretation of how the game is being played.

Or to put it another way, what we say is feedback. But what we *do* is also feedback, and the devs listen to that feedback even more. It just isn't visible in a public forum for us to see as well.

Here's an example. After 12.0 did Dr. Strange suck? The overwhelming public sentiment was that yes, he did, and no one wanted to bother with him anymore. However, I was a bit skeptical because the one piece of hard data that I possessed said the players as a whole disagreed: his rerun arena cutoff scores. They were significantly above average for a rerun post 12.0, and significantly above other champs believed to be underperforming.

The devs know the publicly expressed sentiment, but they also have even better data than I have on how much he's actually pursued and used, or was back then. Which do you think the devs felt reflected Dr. Strange's true relative value among the playerbase as a whole back then. It was more the latter than the former. I'm not guessing.
I got to disagree. Dr. Strange was a huge champ back in the day and people who didn't have him always wanted him which is why the arena scores was probably so high. That nerf made him practically useless. Back in the day regen was all the ragewhich is why Blade ran the game for so long, also SW, also Dr. Strange. That is no longer the case but when strange's regen was nerfed people stopped using him all together for the most part. Arena scores don't reflect that. When it comes to arena you got to factor in hype, prestige, utility, difficulty etc.

The arena score was just one data point, as I said. The devs have the actual usage data, which showed that the players who said he was useless and thus not being used by anyone was wrong.

The devs aren't going to come on the forums and correct people with graphs and charts. Instead they are just going to assume that the people who are absolutely certain something is happening that the game data says is definitely not happening simply have impaired judgment and thus lack credibility.

I'm always puzzled when people assert certainty about things they can't possibly be certain about, while being judged by invisible people who have all the answers in the back of the book. It seems to me to be highly counterproductive if you're trying to convince those invisible people to listen to your ideas.

TheTalents

Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.
It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.
Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.
I also read them. I also wrote them. I'm telling you I have direct knowledge that such feedback matters, but only when it aligns with the devs own interpretation of how the game is being played.

Or to put it another way, what we say is feedback. But what we *do* is also feedback, and the devs listen to that feedback even more. It just isn't visible in a public forum for us to see as well.

Here's an example. After 12.0 did Dr. Strange suck? The overwhelming public sentiment was that yes, he did, and no one wanted to bother with him anymore. However, I was a bit skeptical because the one piece of hard data that I possessed said the players as a whole disagreed: his rerun arena cutoff scores. They were significantly above average for a rerun post 12.0, and significantly above other champs believed to be underperforming.

The devs know the publicly expressed sentiment, but they also have even better data than I have on how much he's actually pursued and used, or was back then. Which do you think the devs felt reflected Dr. Strange's true relative value among the playerbase as a whole back then. It was more the latter than the former. I'm not guessing.
I got to disagree. Dr. Strange was a huge champ back in the day and people who didn't have him always wanted him which is why the arena scores was probably so high. That nerf made him practically useless. Back in the day regen was all the ragewhich is why Blade ran the game for so long, also SW, also Dr. Strange. That is no longer the case but when strange's regen was nerfed people stopped using him all together for the most part. Arena scores don't reflect that. When it comes to arena you got to factor in hype, prestige, utility, difficulty etc.
The arena score was just one data point, as I said. The devs have the actual usage data, which showed that the players who said he was useless and thus not being used by anyone was wrong.

The devs aren't going to come on the forums and correct people with graphs and charts. Instead they are just going to assume that the people who are absolutely certain something is happening that the game data says is definitely not happening simply have impaired judgment and thus lack credibility.

I'm always puzzled when people assert certainty about things they can't possibly be certain about, while being judged by invisible people who have all the answers in the back of the book. It seems to me to be highly counterproductive if you're trying to convince those invisible people to listen to your ideas.

I have a long history of being right when it comes to this game and I didn't need actual verified data to be right. To name multiple occasions that I've been right and are currently documented in my past history on the forums are the following.

1) Champion 6.2 nerf
2) Epic mods nerfs from AQ to hulk buster and the range of difficulty in said nodes.
3) The original act 7 being nerfed. I was in the beta and told them that it needed to get scraped if the game wanted to continue at this pace. You were also in those threads but you may not remember me.

There are others but that is a short few that you don't need verified evidence to claim, but if you play the game and have any type of knowledge on how certain changes can hurt the business it was clear and obvious what needed to change.

When it comes to variants I'm good with this direction. The rewards truly outweigh the work which I will never have a problem with. The next thing that Kabam needs to do is make a Throne breaker difficulty for side events that are actually end game material. We need side events like the maze that is open to everybody but humbling to most. That will give end gamers the boost in ego which they're seeking and give up and coming guys something to strive for from a skill and roster perspective. When the maze dropped I wasn't good enough to do more than the initial run without using several revives and I actually never finished. At this time there's nothing in the game that can compare outside of pre act 6.

Vendemiaire

V6 was easy but kinda fun. V7 was easy but felt rushed and not creative.

AntoGrey

Who did you use guys for 3.2 poisoning path?

BigPoppaCBONE

I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind
Boy am I upset I ranked up my favourite champions as 6*. I wish someone had told me how easy variant content was going to be so I could have left them rank 1 level 1 in order to use them in challenging content.

If kabam makes content that is hard for the people who want hard content, it is always in the game. If you can’t do it right away then you can come back to it. You satisfy the endgame by giving them a challenge, you satisfy the others by giving them something to work to and complete later.

If kabam makes content that is too easy for the end game players, then they are disappointed and never get their challenge. What’s the point ranking champions if you can’t use them in serious content? And then coming to the forums to voice concerns and they get told to just use 4*, an artificial, useless challenge that brushes off and doesn’t address any issue.

What are you looking for in a challenge? Can someone from the too easy group please describe a proper challenge so we can understand what the basic expectations are?

If you want to take maxed out 6 stars but not lesser rarities, why? Presumably it's because of the strength, rarity, and cool sports car factor. But they make the content too easy, so easy that you blast through it immediately.
You (general, not you specifically) want more of a challenge, right? Normally the challenging content requires dancing around, picking your spots and not getting hit. Correct? Not much challenge if you can just bumrush through.
What's wrong with the suggestion of using 3 and 4 stars if everything is too easy with 5 or 6 stars? Stakes are raised since getting hit will kill you and you get almost the exact same champ functionality so you aren't really missing out there. I guess you might miss out on some synergies, but that's an added layer of difficulty, right?

BigPoppaCBONE

A few points from the dev diary linked above

This here: this addresses why not just use lower ranked champions. Releasing a higher difficulty as they mention here would mean the same nodes, but higher health. That’s longer, not necessarily more difficult.

If I use a 4* archangel on the bleed path in variant 7, that will be a 45 hit fight instead of a 15 hit fight. There is nothing more difficult about that, just longer. A 50 hit difficult fight that is challenging because of the nodes is leaps and bounds more fun than a 100 hit fight with one node.

Another point backing why not just use lower champions, the risk of getting killed in one combo isn’t necessarily the challenge we want. If you fight winter soldier with a 2*, you’ll get killed in 1 combo, that is not fun.

The absolute biggest point here, variant content is permanent! You don’t have to do it straight away if it is too hard for you. Go away, come back stronger. Learn, don’t just complain.

Variant 7 is objectively easier, or at the very least, as easy as variant 1. That means in 3 years the only step up in endgame content is act 6 and Abyss. The reason there’s been less end game content is that a vocal minority who can’t do something have the attitude that if they can’t do it then it shouldn’t be in the game. There’s no concept of growth as a player.

Thanks for posting this. This does help.

If I use a 4* archangel on the bleed path in variant 7, that will be a 45 hit fight instead of a 15 hit fight.
Is champ selection another problem? Maybe there's another champ that would meet your challenge needs. If Archangel reduces the fight to parry-heavy with no real challenge, maybe don't use him.

Another point backing why not just use lower champions, the risk of getting killed in one combo isn’t necessarily the challenge we want. If you fight winter soldier with a 2*, you’ll get killed in 1 combo, that is not fun.
Is it that you want more room for error, and that would be more fun? So you don't want the fights to just be a longer version of the same fight but you also don't want to use a champ with too little room for error.
Maybe don't use the optimal champ that makes the content so easy. That way you still have the benefit of the larger health pool but you might have a more engaging fight.

StevieManWonder

Who did you use guys for 3.2 poisoning path?

I used She-Hulk and she did great.

BlackTuran

A few points from the dev diary linked above

This here: this addresses why not just use lower ranked champions. Releasing a higher difficulty as they mention here would mean the same nodes, but higher health. That’s longer, not necessarily more difficult.

If I use a 4* archangel on the bleed path in variant 7, that will be a 45 hit fight instead of a 15 hit fight. There is nothing more difficult about that, just longer. A 50 hit difficult fight that is challenging because of the nodes is leaps and bounds more fun than a 100 hit fight with one node.

Another point backing why not just use lower champions, the risk of getting killed in one combo isn’t necessarily the challenge we want. If you fight winter soldier with a 2*, you’ll get killed in 1 combo, that is not fun.

The absolute biggest point here, variant content is permanent! You don’t have to do it straight away if it is too hard for you. Go away, come back stronger. Learn, don’t just complain.

Variant 7 is objectively easier, or at the very least, as easy as variant 1. That means in 3 years the only step up in endgame content is act 6 and Abyss. The reason there’s been less end game content is that a vocal minority who can’t do something have the attitude that if they can’t do it then it shouldn’t be in the game. There’s no concept of growth as a player.
Thanks for posting this. This does help.

If I use a 4* archangel on the bleed path in variant 7, that will be a 45 hit fight instead of a 15 hit fight.
Is champ selection another problem? Maybe there's another champ that would meet your challenge needs. If Archangel reduces the fight to parry-heavy with no real challenge, maybe don't use him.

Another point backing why not just use lower champions, the risk of getting killed in one combo isn’t necessarily the challenge we want. If you fight winter soldier with a 2*, you’ll get killed in 1 combo, that is not fun.
Is it that you want more room for error, and that would be more fun? So you don't want the fights to just be a longer version of the same fight but you also don't want to use a champ with too little room for error.
Maybe don't use the optimal champ that makes the content so easy. That way you still have the benefit of the larger health pool but you might have a more engaging fight.

the point is that the difficulty we want isn't just from how much damage you take from parrying, or how low your health pool is, or how many hits it takes to take the opponent down. it's about the node combinations, how much thought you need to put into what teams you need to bring in, figuring out how you're going to play out the fight battle strategy-wise, etc.

Filthgrinder

Who did you use guys for 3.2 poisoning path?

I used Ghulk and She-Hulk