Grinded 115 million in 6 star arena...thanks for helping me decide to quit this game.

124

Comments

  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,891 Guardian
    ESF said:

    Maybe if the game lasts long enough, we will see 5-stars as a milestone. There once was a time when a 4-star being a milestone was unthinkable, so it could happen

    But right now, 5-stars are still at a power level that can clear almost all content, though 6-stars are where Act 7 is geared

    I think there's a chance 5-stars might be milestones one day, but I don't think it's gonna be soon

    When there exists a tier of player progress where a brand new 5* champ isn't pursued with a lot of effort, and thus it is no longer something that would drive any reasonable competition to get them, maybe then. The absolute earliest such a thing could happen is when 6* rank 5 becomes generally available. Maybe not even then, but without a doubt not before then.

    As long as they are still fairly highly pursued, and as long as they remain relevant to top tier content, I cannot see Kabam making 5* champs into a milestone. If that was even a possibility in their minds, they probably would have extended the rank rewards for them more than they did. The current 5* rank rewards are basically slightly higher than they were before to account for the fact that you would have some spillover from 6* competition that wasn't competing for the 5* champ in the past. In other words, the current 5* rank reward bracket reflects the attitude that it shouldn't even be really any larger than it used to be before they added 6* champs. That's not what you do if you're thinking that maybe 5* champs are losing their luster when it comes to being a highly valued pursuit item.
  • GmonkeyGmonkey Posts: 1,713 ★★★★
    Shang chi is awesome but not worth the grind 6000-15000 units for refreshing is better spent clearing content. At the end of the day no one hero will clear all content.
    If you have completed everything sure why not, if you want to spend all your time grinding have fun.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,891 Guardian

    Is there a reason why there can't just be two more milestones:

    40 million: the 5 star champion
    80 million: the 6 star champion

    It is basically the same reason we can't make alliance war so that if you get enough kills, you get master rewards.

    Which is to say, it is of course doable, it is just never going to be done.
  • GlazzyBearGlazzyBear Posts: 34

    Didn't know arena was required. If you're a paying "customer", just buy Cav crystals. Better chance at a 6* than getting one one arena.

    (Disregard the old comment) The average number of crystals to get the 6* desired champion after the cav crystal buff is around the 80ish range I would say. Thats about $800 for a 6* champion. Please tell me you are joking. The obvious alternative would be to grind for the champion in arena for way cheaper... at least for non whales... or so I thought
    Don't know where you got your stats from but that's just not accurate. Plus I didn't say the featured. Just regular Cavs. Get more 6*'s, do more arena.
    I got my stats from a few BrutalDLX crystal opening videos and using a caculator. Not too hard.
  • ESFESF Posts: 1,582 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    ESF said:

    Maybe if the game lasts long enough, we will see 5-stars as a milestone. There once was a time when a 4-star being a milestone was unthinkable, so it could happen

    But right now, 5-stars are still at a power level that can clear almost all content, though 6-stars are where Act 7 is geared

    I think there's a chance 5-stars might be milestones one day, but I don't think it's gonna be soon

    When there exists a tier of player progress where a brand new 5* champ isn't pursued with a lot of effort, and thus it is no longer something that would drive any reasonable competition to get them, maybe then. The absolute earliest such a thing could happen is when 6* rank 5 becomes generally available. Maybe not even then, but without a doubt not before then.

    As long as they are still fairly highly pursued, and as long as they remain relevant to top tier content, I cannot see Kabam making 5* champs into a milestone. If that was even a possibility in their minds, they probably would have extended the rank rewards for them more than they did. The current 5* rank rewards are basically slightly higher than they were before to account for the fact that you would have some spillover from 6* competition that wasn't competing for the 5* champ in the past. In other words, the current 5* rank reward bracket reflects the attitude that it shouldn't even be really any larger than it used to be before they added 6* champs. That's not what you do if you're thinking that maybe 5* champs are losing their luster when it comes to being a highly valued pursuit item.
    I won't lie: I know I should make the switch, but I still commit resources to 5-stars. I still like playing them, and they do what I need to do

    I know that I'm not the highest tier of player in this game, and I accepted that long ago
  • Brandino34Brandino34 Posts: 8
    Sweet!!! Thank you :) that will make it easier for the rest of us. Hopefully your old alliance finds a good replacement
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,891 Guardian

    Didn't know arena was required. If you're a paying "customer", just buy Cav crystals. Better chance at a 6* than getting one one arena.

    (Disregard the old comment) The average number of crystals to get the 6* desired champion after the cav crystal buff is around the 80ish range I would say. Thats about $800 for a 6* champion. Please tell me you are joking. The obvious alternative would be to grind for the champion in arena for way cheaper... at least for non whales... or so I thought
    The odds of getting the 6* featured champ from Cavalier crystals is 0.9%. That means it takes on average about 111 featured Cav crystals, which would cost about 33,333 units. If you had to buy those units with cash, it would be about $1075 USD.

    I have - in terms of doing featured grinds - a moderate sized roster. 84 6* champs, and a bunch of ranked 5* champs. Cycling my 6* champs gets be about 5.5 million per cycle. If I push to the limits with help requests and do seven cycles in one arena event that would be 38.5 million points. I've never actually calculated this, because I don't actually do it, but I believe I can get 3 million points cycling my 5* champs three times a day or nine times an arena event for about 27 million points. That's 65.5 million. To reach the ~ 130 million cutoff for Shang Chi I would have needed refreshes. Ignoring arena boosts, I would need about 323 more rounds of 6* champs, which at 60 units per refresh would be 19380 units.

    The 6* featured grind is actually cheaper than Cavs for anyone with a competitive roster.

    But here's something that will probably surprise many. Suppose you don't have a competitive roster. Suppose you only have three 6* champs total. Now what would it cost you? Well, assuming you can get about 200k per round (this depends on masteries and rank, but this is a close estimate) it would take a whopping 650 refreshes to score 130 million points. At 60 units per refresh, that would be 39,000 units.

    Compare that with the 33,333 units it takes on average to pull the 6* featured from featured Cavs. It is higher, but not astronomically higher. The break even point is about 19 million points. In other words, if you can grind 19 million points in the featured arena for free, the cost to refresh three 6* champs enough to reach 130 million is about the same as the cost to open Cavs. Of course, we don't know where the stable range of featured 6* cutoffs is going to be yet, it might be lower as Shang Chi is the first and in high demand. But just for the sake of argument, we'll go with that 130 million cutoff for discussion purposes.

    The arena is very competitive with Cav crystals, and this shouldn't be surprising. The "cost" of a 6* featured champ when it first comes out is something the playerbase "knows" at least intuitively. The amount of effort an arena grinder is willing to commit to getting that champ is not going to be *wildly* higher than the implicit cost of that champ in Cav crystals, because players aren't going to spend a lot more than they need to. They might not be 100% accurate on knowing how much that is, but they won't usually go wildly overboard.
  • Khaos369Khaos369 Posts: 13
    DNA3000 said:

    Jaded said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Jaded said:

    As if it would be “too much” to remove leaderboard altogether and just give the champs at milestones.

    80 million points - new 5*
    100 million points - new 6*

    Those that can grind the 100 million for “free” will be thankful they won’t miss. Those that have to spend at least get a guaranteed new champion.

    Pinning people against each other just creates a toxic community. It’s not needed, arenas boast no skills required. Only time and money.

    Edit: I wouldn’t be opposed to kabam changing the milestone points as roster grow the points will be easier to obtain.

    You do understand how the entire core concept of this game works? Pinning people against each other creates a healthy community. It’s really more encouraging spirited competition.

    This game doesn’t work if everyone wins a trophy. You have to be better/ higher than someone else or else what is the point of spending?

    If that happens we are just playing street fighter at that point. I thought about having milestones in arena for a 5* champ, but it can’t happen.

    Effort does not = Reward

    This could happen if champions weren’t such a strong factor within game. Maybe when they introduce relics that is something you can put in milestone.
    Not in arenas. The game works this way everywhere else, it doesn’t have to apply in arenas. This isn’t an actual player vs player section of the game. It’s a fake PVP, there isn’t a trophy for arena wins except the titles. Eventually the champions all enter the basic crystal and will be available. Hence not a trophy as you would like to see it as. Reality dictates it’s just kabam feeding addictions and abusing people. If you are okay with that, then your argument makes sense.

    Making a push for champions to be in the milestones is an obvious sign from kabam that they also see it this way. Unfortunately they still want to make money. Arena is a pit of money, the unknown to the player base = gambling. Even if they aren’t spending they are gambling their points are sufficient for what they want. It causes undue stress and excessive spending. As others have stated it’s smarter to spend on feature runs then cavalier crystals. Leading to more of a gap in the leaderboards.

    Nah, I don’t accept your argument. Try again.
    It is not an "argument" it is the simple truth of how Kabam sees champion acquisition. Not only is it trivially easy to deduce from how the game has always been managed, its also been confirmed explicitly by Kabam in interviews. Chasing champions is one of the fundamentals of the game, and that chase has tiers. At this point in the game, putting 3* and 4* champions in milestones is reasonable because they are no longer the top pursuit items, and even there you can see that the basic champion is put in relatively low milestones but the featured is put in much higher milestones. The idea being that players who have already progressed to the point where their rosters have almost certainly outgrown 3* and 4* champions as pursuit items have an easy time getting them. For players that are still on the hunt for those rarity tiers, trying to get the newest champs still takes huge effort. it takes much less effort to get them months later when they aren't the new champs anymore. Even for 3* and 4* champs, Kabam still balances milestones based on the notion that chasing specific targets should be very hard, when those rarities are still relevant.

    The very highest rarity tiers are still top pursuit items, and thus the ability for players to target them is much more strictly limited. That's why there's a 5* dual class crystal, but not a 6* one. That's why specifically targeting 5* and 6* champs is still a competition, not a milestone, in the arena.

    Because this is fundamental to the game, this applies everywhere. It affects how Kabam designs crystals, game modes, even cash offers. Targeting champs is always going to be harder than random acquisition, and the higher rarities are always going to be harder and more expensive than the lower ones, and there will always be at least one top tier champion rarity that is extremely difficult to target. Not only has it always been this way, it has also been something that Kabam has all but stated is not even on the table to change. They can soften things around the edges over time, but there is no way, literally no way Kabam will be giving out the 6* champs as milestones as long as 6* champs are the highest rarity champ.

    I'm saying this as a statement of fact, not a guess. If you start an argument with "I think the 6* champ should be given out as a milestone" the devs aren't going to read past that word to even find out what that milestone is. Whatever it is, the answer would be no, it would imply you don't understand the fundamentals of the game the devs have to work with, and there'd be no point in continuing to read the rest.
    I would love to see milestones for at the least 5* basics, but as you said it’s out of the question. Admittedly, the thought of giving a valuable champ out as a milestone probably sounds really dumb to them. People also should be rewarded if they put in extra work, just wish there was a middle ground, but oh well. Do you think if they were to get rid of a lot of/all the arena mercs it would at-least cut down the points required even a fair amount ?
  • bm3eppsbm3epps Posts: 904 ★★★
    Lmao..wasn't the cutoff 129+ million
  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,121 ★★★★
    edited May 18
    Jaded said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Jaded said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Jaded said:

    As if it would be “too much” to remove leaderboard altogether and just give the champs at milestones.

    80 million points - new 5*
    100 million points - new 6*

    Those that can grind the 100 million for “free” will be thankful they won’t miss. Those that have to spend at least get a guaranteed new champion.

    Pinning people against each other just creates a toxic community. It’s not needed, arenas boast no skills required. Only time and money.

    Edit: I wouldn’t be opposed to kabam changing the milestone points as roster grow the points will be easier to obtain.

    You do understand how the entire core concept of this game works? Pinning people against each other creates a healthy community. It’s really more encouraging spirited competition.

    This game doesn’t work if everyone wins a trophy. You have to be better/ higher than someone else or else what is the point of spending?

    If that happens we are just playing street fighter at that point. I thought about having milestones in arena for a 5* champ, but it can’t happen.

    Effort does not = Reward

    This could happen if champions weren’t such a strong factor within game. Maybe when they introduce relics that is something you can put in milestone.
    Not in arenas. The game works this way everywhere else, it doesn’t have to apply in arenas. This isn’t an actual player vs player section of the game. It’s a fake PVP, there isn’t a trophy for arena wins except the titles. Eventually the champions all enter the basic crystal and will be available. Hence not a trophy as you would like to see it as. Reality dictates it’s just kabam feeding addictions and abusing people. If you are okay with that, then your argument makes sense.

    Making a push for champions to be in the milestones is an obvious sign from kabam that they also see it this way. Unfortunately they still want to make money. Arena is a pit of money, the unknown to the player base = gambling. Even if they aren’t spending they are gambling their points are sufficient for what they want. It causes undue stress and excessive spending. As others have stated it’s smarter to spend on feature runs then cavalier crystals. Leading to more of a gap in the leaderboards.

    Nah, I don’t accept your argument. Try again.
    It is not an "argument" it is the simple truth of how Kabam sees champion acquisition. Not only is it trivially easy to deduce from how the game has always been managed, its also been confirmed explicitly by Kabam in interviews. Chasing champions is one of the fundamentals of the game, and that chase has tiers. At this point in the game, putting 3* and 4* champions in milestones is reasonable because they are no longer the top pursuit items, and even there you can see that the basic champion is put in relatively low milestones but the featured is put in much higher milestones. The idea being that players who have already progressed to the point where their rosters have almost certainly outgrown 3* and 4* champions as pursuit items have an easy time getting them. For players that are still on the hunt for those rarity tiers, trying to get the newest champs still takes huge effort. it takes much less effort to get them months later when they aren't the new champs anymore. Even for 3* and 4* champs, Kabam still balances milestones based on the notion that chasing specific targets should be very hard, when those rarities are still relevant.

    The very highest rarity tiers are still top pursuit items, and thus the ability for players to target them is much more strictly limited. That's why there's a 5* dual class crystal, but not a 6* one. That's why specifically targeting 5* and 6* champs is still a competition, not a milestone, in the arena.

    Because this is fundamental to the game, this applies everywhere. It affects how Kabam designs crystals, game modes, even cash offers. Targeting champs is always going to be harder than random acquisition, and the higher rarities are always going to be harder and more expensive than the lower ones, and there will always be at least one top tier champion rarity that is extremely difficult to target. Not only has it always been this way, it has also been something that Kabam has all but stated is not even on the table to change. They can soften things around the edges over time, but there is no way, literally no way Kabam will be giving out the 6* champs as milestones as long as 6* champs are the highest rarity champ.

    I'm saying this as a statement of fact, not a guess. If you start an argument with "I think the 6* champ should be given out as a milestone" the devs aren't going to read past that word to even find out what that milestone is. Whatever it is, the answer would be no, it would imply you don't understand the fundamentals of the game the devs have to work with, and there'd be no point in continuing to read the rest.
    I’m sorry, I can’t accept any argument that uses “because kabam has it setup this way”. It doesn’t have to be, that’s the point. Your argument and others have been groomed to think this way. There is this box, and currently that argument is inside that box.

    People are beating a bush that consists of only what kabam has allowed us to do so far. If tomorrow kabam announced new milestones that included the 5* and 6* everyone would praise it. Arenas are NOT a competition mode, despite what you see.

    When someone (like OP) puts up massive numbers and time for 115 million points with 40 6*. Damn, that’s straight up impressive, he should have gotten what he was aiming for. OP is also not alone, how many people have raged quit because they invested time and money to fall short of 1 rank spot. That’s ridiculous. These frustration and mental stress don’t have to be in arenas.

    The game focuses so much on random outcomes. Crystals, arenas, in fight abilities and so forth, why? Why does everything have to be so uncertain? The game would not break, it would ease people’s frustrations with this part of the game.
    I think you are missing a key point. It’s not what they have to do it is what they are doing. We are discussing what’s actually happening. If a F2P chooses not to spend that’s his choice and vice versa. This box is Kabams business model and always has been and is what drives the entire game. It’s what drives most mobile game business models.

    If tomorrow Kabam allowed 5* and 6* in milestones they would absolutely destroy the game as it is today. Sure some will praise it , but I imagine the people spending money and those who play competitive would see a significant drop all around . Why? Because their efforts give no advantage neither does their money. What’s the point?

    No one I know has raged quit because they have missed arena. Arena itself is not a competitive mode in itself , but you fight for placements. However when you are trying to secure a champ you are fighting against the entire world for top 100 , very similar to legend times.

    The game focuses on random outcomes because it is what keeps us coming back and allowing us to grow our rosters.

    OP put up 115mil points he was short and will hold on to this for awhile. Let that be a lesson for him, and you as well. You don’t deserve anything because you thought you did a good job. 100 people did it better.

    If you want rewards you don’t have to compete for console games are always better.
  • BadroseBadrose Posts: 731 ★★★

    Badrose said:

    He has 40 6*... So? "Real grinders" bring their best 3 characters in, use boosts and then pay units to refresh. Just few full run if any. The more 6* you have the more time you spend making half of the points. If you have 3, 40 or 200 6* makes no big difference. The problem is 130ML and wasting 3 days of your life to get a 6*.

    So you think they should remove the ability to refresh with units so that we can actually have real grinders? That's even worse for smaller rosters. All that does is basically say that if you're ranked in the top 100 leaderboard and you have the time and desire, you're almost guaranteed to get the champ everytime.
    I didn't say that at all, that's just what grinders do.

    My opinion is that Arenas should always guarantee a prize on a specific goal because, talking about frustration, there is nothing worse than spending time and money for nothing. You can even put a 200ML goal, at least I know in advance if it's worth it or not. But selfish/addicted/rich people will never agree.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,891 Guardian
    Jaded said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Jaded said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Jaded said:

    As if it would be “too much” to remove leaderboard altogether and just give the champs at milestones.

    80 million points - new 5*
    100 million points - new 6*

    Those that can grind the 100 million for “free” will be thankful they won’t miss. Those that have to spend at least get a guaranteed new champion.

    Pinning people against each other just creates a toxic community. It’s not needed, arenas boast no skills required. Only time and money.

    Edit: I wouldn’t be opposed to kabam changing the milestone points as roster grow the points will be easier to obtain.

    You do understand how the entire core concept of this game works? Pinning people against each other creates a healthy community. It’s really more encouraging spirited competition.

    This game doesn’t work if everyone wins a trophy. You have to be better/ higher than someone else or else what is the point of spending?

    If that happens we are just playing street fighter at that point. I thought about having milestones in arena for a 5* champ, but it can’t happen.

    Effort does not = Reward

    This could happen if champions weren’t such a strong factor within game. Maybe when they introduce relics that is something you can put in milestone.
    Not in arenas. The game works this way everywhere else, it doesn’t have to apply in arenas. This isn’t an actual player vs player section of the game. It’s a fake PVP, there isn’t a trophy for arena wins except the titles. Eventually the champions all enter the basic crystal and will be available. Hence not a trophy as you would like to see it as. Reality dictates it’s just kabam feeding addictions and abusing people. If you are okay with that, then your argument makes sense.

    Making a push for champions to be in the milestones is an obvious sign from kabam that they also see it this way. Unfortunately they still want to make money. Arena is a pit of money, the unknown to the player base = gambling. Even if they aren’t spending they are gambling their points are sufficient for what they want. It causes undue stress and excessive spending. As others have stated it’s smarter to spend on feature runs then cavalier crystals. Leading to more of a gap in the leaderboards.

    Nah, I don’t accept your argument. Try again.
    It is not an "argument" it is the simple truth of how Kabam sees champion acquisition. Not only is it trivially easy to deduce from how the game has always been managed, its also been confirmed explicitly by Kabam in interviews. Chasing champions is one of the fundamentals of the game, and that chase has tiers. At this point in the game, putting 3* and 4* champions in milestones is reasonable because they are no longer the top pursuit items, and even there you can see that the basic champion is put in relatively low milestones but the featured is put in much higher milestones. The idea being that players who have already progressed to the point where their rosters have almost certainly outgrown 3* and 4* champions as pursuit items have an easy time getting them. For players that are still on the hunt for those rarity tiers, trying to get the newest champs still takes huge effort. it takes much less effort to get them months later when they aren't the new champs anymore. Even for 3* and 4* champs, Kabam still balances milestones based on the notion that chasing specific targets should be very hard, when those rarities are still relevant.

    The very highest rarity tiers are still top pursuit items, and thus the ability for players to target them is much more strictly limited. That's why there's a 5* dual class crystal, but not a 6* one. That's why specifically targeting 5* and 6* champs is still a competition, not a milestone, in the arena.

    Because this is fundamental to the game, this applies everywhere. It affects how Kabam designs crystals, game modes, even cash offers. Targeting champs is always going to be harder than random acquisition, and the higher rarities are always going to be harder and more expensive than the lower ones, and there will always be at least one top tier champion rarity that is extremely difficult to target. Not only has it always been this way, it has also been something that Kabam has all but stated is not even on the table to change. They can soften things around the edges over time, but there is no way, literally no way Kabam will be giving out the 6* champs as milestones as long as 6* champs are the highest rarity champ.

    I'm saying this as a statement of fact, not a guess. If you start an argument with "I think the 6* champ should be given out as a milestone" the devs aren't going to read past that word to even find out what that milestone is. Whatever it is, the answer would be no, it would imply you don't understand the fundamentals of the game the devs have to work with, and there'd be no point in continuing to read the rest.
    I’m sorry, I can’t accept any argument that uses “because kabam has it setup this way”. It doesn’t have to be, that’s the point. Your argument and others have been groomed to think this way. There is this box, and currently that argument is inside that box.
    I'm not sure what the extent of your world view is, but no one "groomed me" to have my opinions. My opinions have been formulated over many years of studying the online game industry, the rise and evolution of the microtransaction supported free to play game model, years of discussing game development and management with game developers, years of studying this game in particular, listening to the public statements of the developers, and conversations I've had with them individually, all of which support my position. Which isn't based on some notion of "the devs are always right" but rather based on how game development works. Games like this are build on foundations, and how the games are monetized are one of those foundation blocks. Are they immutable? Of course not. They can be changed in theory. However, there's simply no way for you to convince the developers to change it, for the simple reason that doing so would change so much of how the game is developed that it would simply be impossible to convince enough developers in the company to seriously contemplate initiating the level of effort required to change it.

    Some things you can't just pull on the thread, because it is connected to too many other things. To change the way the developers look at the champion chase, you have to figure out some other way to build a foundation of game monetization, and content release and development, and reward systems, and progression systems. You're going to get resistance at every step of the way, and without some champion for the idea within the company itself, no amount of yelling from outside the company is going to make any progress, because you don't even *know* what the problems are specifically and can't advocate solutions to them. And no one at Kabam is going to spend their every waking moment fighting that fight against the entire rest of their coworkers.

    Game developers do not become game developers to start revolutions, they do so to make games. And when there's a million different things you can work on and be proud of, trying to argue for uprooting the monetization and content development foundations of a six year old game is not a choice any rational person would make.
    Jaded said:

    The game focuses so much on random outcomes. Crystals, arenas, in fight abilities and so forth, why? Why does everything have to be so uncertain? The game would not break, it would ease people’s frustrations with this part of the game.

    The short answer is you can't make a game with moderate predictable rewards that always take a moderate amount of effort. Because those games all have one thing in common: they are boring.

    To be blunt, however, you should consider the fact that you seem to take the position that you can refuse to accept anyone else's arguments, but you think the developers will accept yours. Why should that be?
  • zuffyzuffy Posts: 1,149 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DBLR_989 said:

    I'm a spender in this game whose roster of 6 stars is just under 40 champs, so there's no way for guys like me to compete with guys with over 100 6 stars. Grinding for these 6 stars would be the only way to try increase that pool.

    Actually, that would be highly inefficient. You're spending tons of units and a huge amount of time with no guarantee you're going to win that competition, and it is a competition. Better would be to try to place 5% in both 4/5/6 arenas which would get you 2k 6* shards (plus 10k 5* shards) per cycle, which would be 16k 6* shards a month guaranteed (if you consistently place in that bracket, which takes time to figure out the effort for).
    .
    I did 24m (streak 117) in Shang chi and 22m (streak 187) in falcon to get the 1-5%. I have 75 6* and 148 5* (53 are r4+). That was a horrible grind which I would not do again. Going forward, I would only target the 1-5% in only 1 of the arena.

  • Khaos369Khaos369 Posts: 13
    DNA3000 said:

    Khaos369 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Jaded said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Jaded said:

    As if it would be “too much” to remove leaderboard altogether and just give the champs at milestones.

    80 million points - new 5*
    100 million points - new 6*

    Those that can grind the 100 million for “free” will be thankful they won’t miss. Those that have to spend at least get a guaranteed new champion.

    Pinning people against each other just creates a toxic community. It’s not needed, arenas boast no skills required. Only time and money.

    Edit: I wouldn’t be opposed to kabam changing the milestone points as roster grow the points will be easier to obtain.

    You do understand how the entire core concept of this game works? Pinning people against each other creates a healthy community. It’s really more encouraging spirited competition.

    This game doesn’t work if everyone wins a trophy. You have to be better/ higher than someone else or else what is the point of spending?

    If that happens we are just playing street fighter at that point. I thought about having milestones in arena for a 5* champ, but it can’t happen.

    Effort does not = Reward

    This could happen if champions weren’t such a strong factor within game. Maybe when they introduce relics that is something you can put in milestone.
    Not in arenas. The game works this way everywhere else, it doesn’t have to apply in arenas. This isn’t an actual player vs player section of the game. It’s a fake PVP, there isn’t a trophy for arena wins except the titles. Eventually the champions all enter the basic crystal and will be available. Hence not a trophy as you would like to see it as. Reality dictates it’s just kabam feeding addictions and abusing people. If you are okay with that, then your argument makes sense.

    Making a push for champions to be in the milestones is an obvious sign from kabam that they also see it this way. Unfortunately they still want to make money. Arena is a pit of money, the unknown to the player base = gambling. Even if they aren’t spending they are gambling their points are sufficient for what they want. It causes undue stress and excessive spending. As others have stated it’s smarter to spend on feature runs then cavalier crystals. Leading to more of a gap in the leaderboards.

    Nah, I don’t accept your argument. Try again.
    It is not an "argument" it is the simple truth of how Kabam sees champion acquisition. Not only is it trivially easy to deduce from how the game has always been managed, its also been confirmed explicitly by Kabam in interviews. Chasing champions is one of the fundamentals of the game, and that chase has tiers. At this point in the game, putting 3* and 4* champions in milestones is reasonable because they are no longer the top pursuit items, and even there you can see that the basic champion is put in relatively low milestones but the featured is put in much higher milestones. The idea being that players who have already progressed to the point where their rosters have almost certainly outgrown 3* and 4* champions as pursuit items have an easy time getting them. For players that are still on the hunt for those rarity tiers, trying to get the newest champs still takes huge effort. it takes much less effort to get them months later when they aren't the new champs anymore. Even for 3* and 4* champs, Kabam still balances milestones based on the notion that chasing specific targets should be very hard, when those rarities are still relevant.

    The very highest rarity tiers are still top pursuit items, and thus the ability for players to target them is much more strictly limited. That's why there's a 5* dual class crystal, but not a 6* one. That's why specifically targeting 5* and 6* champs is still a competition, not a milestone, in the arena.

    Because this is fundamental to the game, this applies everywhere. It affects how Kabam designs crystals, game modes, even cash offers. Targeting champs is always going to be harder than random acquisition, and the higher rarities are always going to be harder and more expensive than the lower ones, and there will always be at least one top tier champion rarity that is extremely difficult to target. Not only has it always been this way, it has also been something that Kabam has all but stated is not even on the table to change. They can soften things around the edges over time, but there is no way, literally no way Kabam will be giving out the 6* champs as milestones as long as 6* champs are the highest rarity champ.

    I'm saying this as a statement of fact, not a guess. If you start an argument with "I think the 6* champ should be given out as a milestone" the devs aren't going to read past that word to even find out what that milestone is. Whatever it is, the answer would be no, it would imply you don't understand the fundamentals of the game the devs have to work with, and there'd be no point in continuing to read the rest.
    I would love to see milestones for at the least 5* basics, but as you said it’s out of the question. Admittedly, the thought of giving a valuable champ out as a milestone probably sounds really dumb to them. People also should be rewarded if they put in extra work, just wish there was a middle ground, but oh well. Do you think if they were to get rid of a lot of/all the arena mercs it would at-least cut down the points required even a fair amount ?
    Probably not by as much as you think. The cutoffs are what they are because they represent about the level of effort the players themselves think is reasonable. In other words, if the cutoffs dropped because you eliminated some scores (for whatever reason), more people would now shoot for them because they would now believe they are competitive.

    The "middle ground" at the moment is a combination of the basic arena and the lower rank shards. In other words, the featured arena scores are not just a function of the rarity (stars) and the value of the champ, it is also due to time, or impatience as it were. People aren't grinding 130 million because they think Shang Chi is worth 130 million. Everyone knows he's going to go for less in the basic arena down the road. They are grinding 130 million to get Shang Chi *now* - to be one of the first.

    People complaining about the 130 million grind need to remember that. Everyone shooting for Shang Chi now in the featured aren't just trying to get a new 6* champ. They want to be one of the first in the world to get that champ as a 6* champ. And that's going to be very competitive, because a lot more people want him immediately than there are slots to get him.

    He's eventually going to show up in a basic arena for probably half the points. And he's eventually going to show up in a featured 6* crystal where a lot of people are going to get him for a lot less effort. That's the "middle ground" of the game: if you aren't one of the top 1% of the top 1% of all arena grinders and not one of the top 1% of top 1% of whales, you will get other chances at that champ down the road. The top of the top of players who expend the most effort will get him first, but not exclusively. Everyone else gets him eventually, if they play within their means and don't burn themselves out trying to compete way outside their weight class.

    I have no intention of grinding for the 6* featured any time soon. I'm going to pocket my shards and wait for a more efficient shot at it. At 16k 6* shards per month just from the arena, over 30k 6* shards altogether, if I want to save them up for featured shots I can do that. Or I can just continue to build up my 6* roster with a lot more 6* crystal openings. For me, that's a pretty good reward for the extra effort, because I'm focusing that effort on something that has a good return on investment.
    Ah well, it is what it is. It sucks that we will never be in the top 1%, but as long we’re having fun, who cares right? Milestones, July 4th and Black Friday are all I need. The 6 *feature is tempting, but I always go for the basic every time for more arena points.Thanks for the response and have a nice day.
  • JadedJaded Posts: 4,034 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Jaded said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Jaded said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Jaded said:

    As if it would be “too much” to remove leaderboard altogether and just give the champs at milestones.

    80 million points - new 5*
    100 million points - new 6*

    Those that can grind the 100 million for “free” will be thankful they won’t miss. Those that have to spend at least get a guaranteed new champion.

    Pinning people against each other just creates a toxic community. It’s not needed, arenas boast no skills required. Only time and money.

    Edit: I wouldn’t be opposed to kabam changing the milestone points as roster grow the points will be easier to obtain.

    You do understand how the entire core concept of this game works? Pinning people against each other creates a healthy community. It’s really more encouraging spirited competition.

    This game doesn’t work if everyone wins a trophy. You have to be better/ higher than someone else or else what is the point of spending?

    If that happens we are just playing street fighter at that point. I thought about having milestones in arena for a 5* champ, but it can’t happen.

    Effort does not = Reward

    This could happen if champions weren’t such a strong factor within game. Maybe when they introduce relics that is something you can put in milestone.
    Not in arenas. The game works this way everywhere else, it doesn’t have to apply in arenas. This isn’t an actual player vs player section of the game. It’s a fake PVP, there isn’t a trophy for arena wins except the titles. Eventually the champions all enter the basic crystal and will be available. Hence not a trophy as you would like to see it as. Reality dictates it’s just kabam feeding addictions and abusing people. If you are okay with that, then your argument makes sense.

    Making a push for champions to be in the milestones is an obvious sign from kabam that they also see it this way. Unfortunately they still want to make money. Arena is a pit of money, the unknown to the player base = gambling. Even if they aren’t spending they are gambling their points are sufficient for what they want. It causes undue stress and excessive spending. As others have stated it’s smarter to spend on feature runs then cavalier crystals. Leading to more of a gap in the leaderboards.

    Nah, I don’t accept your argument. Try again.
    It is not an "argument" it is the simple truth of how Kabam sees champion acquisition. Not only is it trivially easy to deduce from how the game has always been managed, its also been confirmed explicitly by Kabam in interviews. Chasing champions is one of the fundamentals of the game, and that chase has tiers. At this point in the game, putting 3* and 4* champions in milestones is reasonable because they are no longer the top pursuit items, and even there you can see that the basic champion is put in relatively low milestones but the featured is put in much higher milestones. The idea being that players who have already progressed to the point where their rosters have almost certainly outgrown 3* and 4* champions as pursuit items have an easy time getting them. For players that are still on the hunt for those rarity tiers, trying to get the newest champs still takes huge effort. it takes much less effort to get them months later when they aren't the new champs anymore. Even for 3* and 4* champs, Kabam still balances milestones based on the notion that chasing specific targets should be very hard, when those rarities are still relevant.

    The very highest rarity tiers are still top pursuit items, and thus the ability for players to target them is much more strictly limited. That's why there's a 5* dual class crystal, but not a 6* one. That's why specifically targeting 5* and 6* champs is still a competition, not a milestone, in the arena.

    Because this is fundamental to the game, this applies everywhere. It affects how Kabam designs crystals, game modes, even cash offers. Targeting champs is always going to be harder than random acquisition, and the higher rarities are always going to be harder and more expensive than the lower ones, and there will always be at least one top tier champion rarity that is extremely difficult to target. Not only has it always been this way, it has also been something that Kabam has all but stated is not even on the table to change. They can soften things around the edges over time, but there is no way, literally no way Kabam will be giving out the 6* champs as milestones as long as 6* champs are the highest rarity champ.

    I'm saying this as a statement of fact, not a guess. If you start an argument with "I think the 6* champ should be given out as a milestone" the devs aren't going to read past that word to even find out what that milestone is. Whatever it is, the answer would be no, it would imply you don't understand the fundamentals of the game the devs have to work with, and there'd be no point in continuing to read the rest.
    I’m sorry, I can’t accept any argument that uses “because kabam has it setup this way”. It doesn’t have to be, that’s the point. Your argument and others have been groomed to think this way. There is this box, and currently that argument is inside that box.
    I'm not sure what the extent of your world view is, but no one "groomed me" to have my opinions. My opinions have been formulated over many years of studying the online game industry, the rise and evolution of the microtransaction supported free to play game model, years of discussing game development and management with game developers, years of studying this game in particular, listening to the public statements of the developers, and conversations I've had with them individually, all of which support my position. Which isn't based on some notion of "the devs are always right" but rather based on how game development works. Games like this are build on foundations, and how the games are monetized are one of those foundation blocks. Are they immutable? Of course not. They can be changed in theory. However, there's simply no way for you to convince the developers to change it, for the simple reason that doing so would change so much of how the game is developed that it would simply be impossible to convince enough developers in the company to seriously contemplate initiating the level of effort required to change it.

    Some things you can't just pull on the thread, because it is connected to too many other things. To change the way the developers look at the champion chase, you have to figure out some other way to build a foundation of game monetization, and content release and development, and reward systems, and progression systems. You're going to get resistance at every step of the way, and without some champion for the idea within the company itself, no amount of yelling from outside the company is going to make any progress, because you don't even *know* what the problems are specifically and can't advocate solutions to them. And no one at Kabam is going to spend their every waking moment fighting that fight against the entire rest of their coworkers.

    Game developers do not become game developers to start revolutions, they do so to make games. And when there's a million different things you can work on and be proud of, trying to argue for uprooting the monetization and content development foundations of a six year old game is not a choice any rational person would make.
    Jaded said:

    The game focuses so much on random outcomes. Crystals, arenas, in fight abilities and so forth, why? Why does everything have to be so uncertain? The game would not break, it would ease people’s frustrations with this part of the game.

    The short answer is you can't make a game with moderate predictable rewards that always take a moderate amount of effort. Because those games all have one thing in common: they are boring.

    To be blunt, however, you should consider the fact that you seem to take the position that you can refuse to accept anyone else's arguments, but you think the developers will accept yours. Why should that be?
    I’m not asking a developer to read or comment on my thoughts. I’m giving ideas to the players that read my comments. I’m unsure why you would need me to answer that final question since there are no mention of transpiring this directly to them.

    Again, I’m speaking of changing arenas to better the health of the players. I’ve seen it for many years the spiral of players burning themselves out in arenas for pittance of hope. The rest of the game competition parts are just fine. I’m not stating the entire game has to change. Do not twist my words into that.

    That’s why I don’t accept the argument that kabam has always been this way. There are times for a change. This is a proper QOL change that would not only help everyone but better the mental health of those that play. Merely telling me that developers won’t read it or saying it’s “a competition” or effort doesn’t equal reward etc...doesn’t make any sense, you’re just making excuses to not helping the players.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,891 Guardian
    zuffy said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DBLR_989 said:

    I'm a spender in this game whose roster of 6 stars is just under 40 champs, so there's no way for guys like me to compete with guys with over 100 6 stars. Grinding for these 6 stars would be the only way to try increase that pool.

    Actually, that would be highly inefficient. You're spending tons of units and a huge amount of time with no guarantee you're going to win that competition, and it is a competition. Better would be to try to place 5% in both 4/5/6 arenas which would get you 2k 6* shards (plus 10k 5* shards) per cycle, which would be 16k 6* shards a month guaranteed (if you consistently place in that bracket, which takes time to figure out the effort for).
    .
    I did 24m (streak 117) in Shang chi and 22m (streak 187) in falcon to get the 1-5%. I have 75 6* and 148 5* (53 are r4+). That was a horrible grind which I would not do again. Going forward, I would only target the 1-5% in only 1 of the arena.

    I will push to get to 1-5% in both when I can, but if I can't, eh. The long term goal is specifically to keep racking up those 6* shards, because the more 6s, the faster you can reach that 1-5%. Somewhere at about 120 6* champs I would theoretically be able to do it with only the 6s and about 240 rounds, which is not bad for me. And while that seems to be a far-off goal, the extra shards in the arenas themselves plus the shards achievable every month in EQ and SQ are approaching four 6* crystals per month for me. Gaining 36 new 6* champs through opening four 6* crystals a month is an achievable goal.

    Part of managing the grind is setting realistic goals, and those goals have to be calibrated to one's capabilities. 6* featured grind is not really something that's within my normal capabilities. 6* basic, maybe, but a stretch and probably not enjoyable. Building to 120 is achievable, and every new champ makes the grind a little bit faster, so there's that. It is all about managing expectations.
  • zuffyzuffy Posts: 1,149 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    zuffy said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DBLR_989 said:

    I'm a spender in this game whose roster of 6 stars is just under 40 champs, so there's no way for guys like me to compete with guys with over 100 6 stars. Grinding for these 6 stars would be the only way to try increase that pool.

    Actually, that would be highly inefficient. You're spending tons of units and a huge amount of time with no guarantee you're going to win that competition, and it is a competition. Better would be to try to place 5% in both 4/5/6 arenas which would get you 2k 6* shards (plus 10k 5* shards) per cycle, which would be 16k 6* shards a month guaranteed (if you consistently place in that bracket, which takes time to figure out the effort for).
    .
    I did 24m (streak 117) in Shang chi and 22m (streak 187) in falcon to get the 1-5%. I have 75 6* and 148 5* (53 are r4+). That was a horrible grind which I would not do again. Going forward, I would only target the 1-5% in only 1 of the arena.

    I will push to get to 1-5% in both when I can, but if I can't, eh. The long term goal is specifically to keep racking up those 6* shards, because the more 6s, the faster you can reach that 1-5%. Somewhere at about 120 6* champs I would theoretically be able to do it with only the 6s and about 240 rounds, which is not bad for me. And while that seems to be a far-off goal, the extra shards in the arenas themselves plus the shards achievable every month in EQ and SQ are approaching four 6* crystals per month for me. Gaining 36 new 6* champs through opening four 6* crystals a month is an achievable goal.

    Part of managing the grind is setting realistic goals, and those goals have to be calibrated to one's capabilities. 6* featured grind is not really something that's within my normal capabilities. 6* basic, maybe, but a stretch and probably not enjoyable. Building to 120 is achievable, and every new champ makes the grind a little bit faster, so there's that. It is all about managing expectations.
    Once I build streak 15 with 5*, all I need is about 5 rounds of my 6* to get that 23m. That is what I had been doing in the old 5* feature arena. And when I had time, use the r4+ 5* to get 4.5m in the 4* feature. Maybe I would grind a few milestones with 5* in the other 6* arena if time permit as a substitution.
  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,121 ★★★★
    zuffy said:

    DNA3000 said:

    zuffy said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DBLR_989 said:

    I'm a spender in this game whose roster of 6 stars is just under 40 champs, so there's no way for guys like me to compete with guys with over 100 6 stars. Grinding for these 6 stars would be the only way to try increase that pool.

    Actually, that would be highly inefficient. You're spending tons of units and a huge amount of time with no guarantee you're going to win that competition, and it is a competition. Better would be to try to place 5% in both 4/5/6 arenas which would get you 2k 6* shards (plus 10k 5* shards) per cycle, which would be 16k 6* shards a month guaranteed (if you consistently place in that bracket, which takes time to figure out the effort for).
    .
    I did 24m (streak 117) in Shang chi and 22m (streak 187) in falcon to get the 1-5%. I have 75 6* and 148 5* (53 are r4+). That was a horrible grind which I would not do again. Going forward, I would only target the 1-5% in only 1 of the arena.

    I will push to get to 1-5% in both when I can, but if I can't, eh. The long term goal is specifically to keep racking up those 6* shards, because the more 6s, the faster you can reach that 1-5%. Somewhere at about 120 6* champs I would theoretically be able to do it with only the 6s and about 240 rounds, which is not bad for me. And while that seems to be a far-off goal, the extra shards in the arenas themselves plus the shards achievable every month in EQ and SQ are approaching four 6* crystals per month for me. Gaining 36 new 6* champs through opening four 6* crystals a month is an achievable goal.

    Part of managing the grind is setting realistic goals, and those goals have to be calibrated to one's capabilities. 6* featured grind is not really something that's within my normal capabilities. 6* basic, maybe, but a stretch and probably not enjoyable. Building to 120 is achievable, and every new champ makes the grind a little bit faster, so there's that. It is all about managing expectations.
    Once I build streak 15 with 5*, all I need is about 5 rounds of my 6* to get that 23m. That is what I had been doing in the old 5* feature arena. And when I had time, use the r4+ 5* to get 4.5m in the 4* feature. Maybe I would grind a few milestones with 5* in the other 6* arena if time permit as a substitution.
    Thanks for the info.
  • Agent_TAgent_T Posts: 199
    Gamer said:

    I dont think you guys are getting the message here. The fact that you need more than 115 million points in these arenas for the 6* is just freaking ridiculous. This is fundamentally flawed. This is major spending territory. Huge cash dump. Something needs to change

    We get that msg but the fact u don’t wait for the first round to get a ide for the score is mind blowing in my eys know u don’t hav but this was new arena and I’m esper it to go over 150 with waste the case when for 129m
    Please just stop. Lol
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,891 Guardian
    altavista said:

    While the point scores are out of wack, it simply reflects how many, and how much others are willing to 'pay for it.'

    It also reflects the fact that players have vastly more ability to generate points, and that ability keeps going up over time. 130 million points is about 650 rounds with 6* champs. That's actually not a high number of rounds historically. For reference, way back in 2016 Nightcrawler went for over 11 million, at a time when 4* champs would be averaging ~20k per round across all ranks usable. 11 million at 20k per round would be 550 rounds, and I suspect it took more than that because we were also using 3* champs in that arena at the time. And I'm pretty sure Dormammu (18 million) took more than 650 rounds to get back then.

    The cost to refresh champions has gone up with rarity, but roster size has also gone way up since then and it takes fewer refreshes to generate the same number of rounds (because refreshed champs are free). I suspect that the actual cost to grind the featured 6* today is in line with the cost to grind 4* featured back in the day, factoring in the overall price inflation of 6* champs over 4* champs.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,891 Guardian
    Jaded said:

    That’s why I don’t accept the argument that kabam has always been this way. There are times for a change. This is a proper QOL change that would not only help everyone but better the mental health of those that play. Merely telling me that developers won’t read it or saying it’s “a competition” or effort doesn’t equal reward etc...doesn’t make any sense, you’re just making excuses to not helping the players.

    I'm not sure I can recall you accepting any arguments ever, actually. But I'd say that explaining why your vision of where the game should go is horrible helps the players a great deal, insofar as most players would prefer to not have the game shut down anytime soon.

    I think at the end of the day, most players understand that for the game to exist as an ongoing concern, it can't simply hand out rewards to everyone who thinks they deserve them. There has to be elements of competition, of aspiration, and even scarcity. These things build value in intrinsically valueless things. These bunches of pixels only have value if the players think they have value, and value is judged relatively. Things that are harder to get have more value than things easier to get. Things that are rare tend to have more value than things that are common. These valuations are necessary to fund the game, because 98% of everyone is playing completely for free. The other 2% have to be convinced to spend actual cash to get pixels and numbers on a screen, or no one has a game to play. And they are not going to spend money to get what everyone else can get relatively easily. They are only going to spend money on things that are hard to get, or rare to get, or that can't be gotten at all until much later.

    Like everywhere else in the world, competition can sometimes bring out the worst in some people. But I think the vast majority that can deal with it shouldn't be penalized just to protect them from themselves. If they decide to leave the game because they can't prevent themselves from self-destruction, we should let them go so the majority can continue to enjoy the game. We shouldn't be changing the game just to try to serve the needs of that tiny minority at the expense of jeopardizing the game for everyone else.

    I also think you need to consider the fact that if none of this makes any sense to you, when it makes sense to most people, that the problem is probably not that it doesn't actually make sense, but rather that you're simply unable or unwilling to comprehend it. Even most people who wish to change it at least understand it.
  • qm44qm44 Posts: 14
    Wow and I was proud of my 3 million points 😅
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,891 Guardian
    Khaos369 said:

    I would love to see milestones for at the least 5* basics, but as you said it’s out of the question.

    Something else to consider. If you think milestones would be a good idea, what would you set them to? The players decide how much effort to put in depending on how much they want the champ, and different champs tend to get acquired by different players depending on which kinds of players want it. So for example in the previous 5* featured arena the featured champ was going for anywhere between 30 million and 60 million points, more or less. If we had set the milestone to 60 million then many players who could have gotten some of the featured champs before now wouldn't be able to. If we set the milestone to 30 million, then we'd basically be giving away the most sought after champs in the game for practically nothing - half the effort they were going for before.

    The really nasty option is the one that seems on the surface to be the most reasonable: split the difference and set the milestone to 45 million. Although that seems reasonable at first glance, we now have a situation where the less desirable champs require far more effort than they used to, while the most sought after champs are now going for far less effort. This actually directly benefits the top grinders, who are still going to get the champ but for less effort, and penalizes the less strong grinders who used to be able to at least snag the less competitive champs but now cannot get any of them.

    Milestones have a lot of issues with them, but one of the more subtle problems is that no matter what you set the milestones to, you're very likely to be helping players who don't need help and penalizing those below them. And regardless, you aren't helping the vast majority of players, none of whom can reach any reasonable milestone for the highest rarity champ. You're just redistributing costs among the top 1%, away from the strongest and towards the weakest of them. Which is the exact opposite of what you want to do.
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