New Arena Structure Feedback v2.0

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  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★
    abn86 said:

    abn86 said:

    I think the changes are good, on the whole. Can't please everyone, but I think the segments who were hurt originally was a bigger population. Arena grinders are a small population of the total game, but of those, you got unit/shard/BC grinders and champ grinders. Anyone who was just hunting for milestones is better off in this one (notwithstanding the Summoner Trials grind, but 4m is doable with 2 hr refresh timers on 4* so that's a wash imo).

    I think champ grinders, specifically 6* basic grinders, feel hurt by this but I'm not sure you should. Points, in and of themselves, are secondary and the grind has always been about total rounds. If you have a large 6* roster you have an equally large 5* roster and still maintain a gigantic advantage. The difference is the total points to get the champ will go down - effort (e.g. rounds) will remain nearly the same. I think this is something that you will probably have to see in practice to actually believe it, but I just don't think it is the catastrophe it may seem.


    Thing is, regardless of the actual winning scores. Nothing changes this fact... Folks with a decent amount of 6 star champs will always (no matter how we try to slice it) be doing somewhere between 50 - 100% more fights to obtain the same score they did before these changes. There's no real way to bypass the math on that.

    Which I find particularly ironic, as the whole reason for these changes was that a segment of the player base was suffering the same fate. The previous thread was littered with complaints about more rounds for less milestones. Correct? That was by far the primary theme of the complaints. This is just a different version of that. Only a different group of players is affected.Maybe it's not to the same degree, but only practice will tell for sure.
    I don't think scores will stay the same, but I do understand a bit more of the argument now. I think the work to get the basic 6* will stay the same, fluctuating up or down based off champ demand. I don't think the scores will stay the same as they have been.

    The way I see it, the total score is the end result of total fights won. I believe (and hope) this will stay approximately the same, even though we will (should) see scores drop. You may disagree, but I hope I'm right. If so, I think a few of you that are concerned would ultimately feel a bit more at ease.

    At the end of the day, even if 6* (in the basic arena) are equivalent to 5* those with a huge roster are still considerably better off than those without. The advantage of having numerous 6* has shifted from earning more points to having a wider roster. At the end of the day, those with big rosters were competing with those with big wallets (or both) and I don't think that's changed. It SEEMS as though the gap got closed between those with large 6* rosters and those with large 5* rosters, but I don't see it. Even with the cool down, the max possible runs (sans refills) for a 5* would be 10 cycles. Max possible runs for a 6* (sans refills) would be 7 cycles. Assuming a complete point equivalency between 5* and 6* I think is where we are going wrong.

    I THINK 6* at r1 would be equivalent to 5* r4. PI-wise they are the similar so I think scoring would be identical. This seems bad, but at max level a r1 6* has only consumed ISO and gold, but a r4 has consumed those resources as well as t4b, t3cc, t1a, t2a and t4cc. 100 5* at r4 is a huge investment. Each r4 is 12 t4b, 3 t3cc, 7 t4cc, 15 t1a, and 4 t2a. If you had 100 5* @ r4 (the equivalent of a 6* r1) you have invested 120 t4c, 30 t3cc, 70 t4cc, 150 t1a, and 40 t2a.

    My point is the ONLY people with that many resources would have a considerably large 6* roster, as well, and considering r2 shares resources, they would be better off in a 6*. I said all that to say to reinforce my point that losing total scoring points doesn't mean having a large 6* roster has disadvantaged you. You are still competing with the EXACT same segment of people, not introducing anyone new to the fold. Besides the resource investment, in order for you to truly be negatively impacted would be if we assume max cycles. Thing is, if I did max cycles for my 100 5* I put in more effort than you and would I not have been deserving of the champ over you? That the same system it's always been.

    TL;DR Having a lot of 6* still gives you a competitive advantage - it just doesn't give as many points as before. We'll see if this means you would have to increase effort, but I'm doubtful. We'll need a few arena cycles to see if the cutoff does indeed drop, as I think it will. Once we have an idea of the new cutoff, we can approximate total rounds needed to get top 100. If someone has a larger 5* roster, they will still need to work harder than the person with a large 6* roster to get top 100 and if they do that, then that player deserved it more.
    Let me start by saying I liked your post. It's very constructive and thoughtful. And, on the whole, I don't necessarily disagree with everything you're saying. I do however think there's at least a piece to the puzzle that you might be over simplifying. The concept that he who does the most rounds deserves to win. The problem with that theory, is that it's not how the arena has ever traditionally worked. And, even if this change goes through, it still won't be how it works. Though... it will actually push us a step closer to that concept, but not entirely.

    The way the scoring has always worked in the arena system is that the rarity and rank of each champ entered into an arena does in fact matter. Right? A 5 star is worth more than a 4, as a 6 is (or was, in this case) worth more than a 5, etc. And within these sets, there are subsets. Each additional rank counts for extra points as well. It's a fundamental part of the scoring system. This is why I am utterly confused when certain folks (who shall not be mentioned;) say things like.. "progression had never been part of the arena system". Quite the opposite, it's always been one of the core concepts of the arena system (which is actually where some of my objection to this proposed change comes from).

    And, whether folks believe me or not, my position on these proposed changes isn't solely based on a "you'll pry my 6 star from my cold dead hands" type of feeling. It's actually more that A: it's a fundamental change to how the entire scoring system has always worked and B: sets a dangerous precedent for more changes like this in the future. What if they later decide that 5* should be equal to 4*... So that players with 4* rosters can keep up with 5* rosters? Where does it stop? Maybe they start messing with scoring values of the Trials next? Oh, wait.. they already did. Not many folks talking about that, but it happened.

    In summary, different values for different rarities and ranks of champs adds another level of complexity to the arena game mode. It offers a goal to work towards. Something to progress forward for. Just like all the other modes in the game. It's part of what makes it more interesting. Rather than view the arena game mode as 3 day events that all happen independent of each other. Take a step back and view it as an ongoing game mode. Just like story mode. Because, it actually is. You do progress and grow. And as you do, you gain access to higher arenas and higher scores. It's an ongoing journey. To suggest that each arena is an isolated event would be the same as saying every quest you do in story mode is an individual event. It is, but it isnt... it's also part of something larger.

    If what you were saying about how the entire outcome of an arena should be based simply on number of fights were true. Why even have a scoring system to begin with? Instead seeing 17,345 points added to your score after a fight, you'd just see a number 43 become 44. Indicating your number of fights.

    And, when you hear some of us "veteran" players talking about devaluing the time we've put in to the game. That's what we're talking about. I know I sound like a broken record, but we've already done it all in the arena. We used 2, 3, 4 and 5 stars for years already. We faced death matches, we sought advice and learned how to avoid them. We learned how to obtain an "infinite streak". We began to see the fruits of our efforts pay off. As we were able to score higher and enter higher tier arenas... It's all been a journey, a journey of progression. We then have worked for 3 years (approximately how long 6 stars have been in game) to develop our 6 star rosters. Very very slowly at first. Like one per 3 months. Steadily and diligently working towards our goals. Under the impression that it counted for something. And it did, up until 6/10/21. With one swift announcement we're basically told we've been pegged back to a much earlier state in our arena progression, with the snap of a finger. After years of working towards it. Whether folks end up seeing our side of the issue or not. That's what it feels like.

    I have nothing against your opinion and views, sincerely, I'm just sharing some of mine.
  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★
    And just as a side note. I am in no way against speeding up the process of progression for new and/or progressing players. Like, at all. So long as reversing my progression (which did actually take longer) isn't part of how it is accomplished.
  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★
    edited June 2021

    I'm sure people with scores of 6*s were looking forward to scooping up some easy Basics, but let's weigh needs against wants here.

    Considering a massive portion of milestone grinders do so to save units to buy holiday offers, let's pump the brakes on the needs vs wants for a sec here.
    Which they can still do without the boosts of 6*s. So...yeah. Needs versus wants.
    But they don't NEED to get those offers anymore than people with a bunch of 6*s NEED to get a basic 6* from arena. They're things both groups want. Yet you seem to think one group's wants matter more.
    When you're talking about people being able to participate in any reasonable way in an Arena intended for many, many people....yes. That's a need. People need to Grind the Arena. They need more than Units, they need to be able to progress over time. More than the 1% needs another notch on their belt.
    Define "reasonable way". I guess what some of us view as reasonable is to earn points based on our current roster capability which is based on our effort/time investment thus far in the game (which is presisely what all of us did to get to where we are now). Once again, I suspect someone who has played this game for 5.5 years does in fact know that everyone starts on act 1. With 1* Spiderman. Yes? And we've all been in control of the level of own progression since that day. If anything, I think almost everyone here can agree that the speed of progression has actually done nothing but accelerate since the games release. So, what part am I missing? The newer the player, the easier they have it.. in a manner of speaking. What exactly is this invisible entity or force that's holding folks back?

    Unless you're actually still talking about the failed current first attempt at creating a 3 arena system. Which, no one here that I know of disagrees that it needs to be fixed. They just disagree on *how* it is fixed.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,581 ★★★★★

    I'm sure people with scores of 6*s were looking forward to scooping up some easy Basics, but let's weigh needs against wants here.

    Considering a massive portion of milestone grinders do so to save units to buy holiday offers, let's pump the brakes on the needs vs wants for a sec here.
    Which they can still do without the boosts of 6*s. So...yeah. Needs versus wants.
    But they don't NEED to get those offers anymore than people with a bunch of 6*s NEED to get a basic 6* from arena. They're things both groups want. Yet you seem to think one group's wants matter more.
    When you're talking about people being able to participate in any reasonable way in an Arena intended for many, many people....yes. That's a need. People need to Grind the Arena. They need more than Units, they need to be able to progress over time. More than the 1% needs another notch on their belt.
    Define "reasonable way". I guess what some of us view as reasonable is to earn points based on our current roster capability which is based on our effort/time investment thus far in the game (which is presisely what all of us did to get to where we are now). Once again, I suspect someone who has played this game for 5.5 years does in fact know that everyone starts on act 1. With 1* Spiderman. Yes? And we've all been in control of the level of own progression since that day. If anything, I think almost everyone here can agree that the speed of progression has actually done nothing but accelerate since the games release. So, what part am I missing? The newer the player, the easier they have it.. in a manner of speaking. What exactly is this invisible entity or force that's holding folks back?

    Unless you're actually still talking about the failed current first attempt at creating a 3 arena system. Which, no one here that I know of disagrees that it needs to be fixed. They just disagree on *how* it is fixed.
    The speed of progression has changed over time because the game has changed as well. It's not the same game it was when we started. There is still a vast number of Players between those beginning stages and the top. Quite insurmountable considering the difference in Points that a 5* and a 6* give when some people are waiting months in between 6*s. There has to be some kind of leveling system, an in-between space where they can progress. The Basic Arena IS just that, Basic.
    As for people who think the system has failed, the only people I see not content with the revisions are the ones that think they should be allowed to dominate it by right, with less Grinding.
  • pseudosanepseudosane Member, Guardian Posts: 3,999 Guardian
    Monk1 said:

    However you want to try and justify ‘fairness’ is irrelevant. This change to basic arena has fundamentally changed how arena has always worked, making it ridiculous.

    The arena is a grind. But every week it used to get easier, that little bit shorter as your account grow. Get champion from arena, rank them up, get more points… rinse, repeat.

    This no longer works cause of the restrictions.

    Those winning the 6* basic champions invest the time to use the champ and rank them. They should be rewarded with more points next time around - but just not the case. Surely people can see how stupid this is

    I totally understand the viewpoint. However, the grind still get easier, just not as much, in one arena. I know, a new 6* is worth ~300k points in arena which is exactly what i look forward to.
    Yes, grinding for the 6* basics may become harder. But i forsee that the cutoffs are going to fall dramatically. Cost vs effort will cause it to fall, which includes 1-5% rewards. Cycle 6* in featured, 5* in basic and 4* in trials for max efficiency. Like this current system, we will need a few weeks to see how the cutoffs are. The more prized basics will need the same effort as currently, but i think we are jumping the gun as to how high they will go. 105mill with the new system will need much more effort and folks just wont do it.
  • abn86abn86 Member Posts: 107

    abn86 said:

    abn86 said:

    I think the changes are good, on the whole. Can't please everyone, but I think the segments who were hurt originally was a bigger population. Arena grinders are a small population of the total game, but of those, you got unit/shard/BC grinders and champ grinders. Anyone who was just hunting for milestones is better off in this one (notwithstanding the Summoner Trials grind, but 4m is doable with 2 hr refresh timers on 4* so that's a wash imo).

    I think champ grinders, specifically 6* basic grinders, feel hurt by this but I'm not sure you should. Points, in and of themselves, are secondary and the grind has always been about total rounds. If you have a large 6* roster you have an equally large 5* roster and still maintain a gigantic advantage. The difference is the total points to get the champ will go down - effort (e.g. rounds) will remain nearly the same. I think this is something that you will probably have to see in practice to actually believe it, but I just don't think it is the catastrophe it may seem.


    Thing is, regardless of the actual winning scores. Nothing changes this fact... Folks with a decent amount of 6 star champs will always (no matter how we try to slice it) be doing somewhere between 50 - 100% more fights to obtain the same score they did before these changes. There's no real way to bypass the math on that.

    Which I find particularly ironic, as the whole reason for these changes was that a segment of the player base was suffering the same fate. The previous thread was littered with complaints about more rounds for less milestones. Correct? That was by far the primary theme of the complaints. This is just a different version of that. Only a different group of players is affected.Maybe it's not to the same degree, but only practice will tell for sure.
    I don't think scores will stay the same, but I do understand a bit more of the argument now. I think the work to get the basic 6* will stay the same, fluctuating up or down based off champ demand. I don't think the scores will stay the same as they have been.

    The way I see it, the total score is the end result of total fights won. I believe (and hope) this will stay approximately the same, even though we will (should) see scores drop. You may disagree, but I hope I'm right. If so, I think a few of you that are concerned would ultimately feel a bit more at ease.

    At the end of the day, even if 6* (in the basic arena) are equivalent to 5* those with a huge roster are still considerably better off than those without. The advantage of having numerous 6* has shifted from earning more points to having a wider roster. At the end of the day, those with big rosters were competing with those with big wallets (or both) and I don't think that's changed. It SEEMS as though the gap got closed between those with large 6* rosters and those with large 5* rosters, but I don't see it. Even with the cool down, the max possible runs (sans refills) for a 5* would be 10 cycles. Max possible runs for a 6* (sans refills) would be 7 cycles. Assuming a complete point equivalency between 5* and 6* I think is where we are going wrong.

    I THINK 6* at r1 would be equivalent to 5* r4. PI-wise they are the similar so I think scoring would be identical. This seems bad, but at max level a r1 6* has only consumed ISO and gold, but a r4 has consumed those resources as well as t4b, t3cc, t1a, t2a and t4cc. 100 5* at r4 is a huge investment. Each r4 is 12 t4b, 3 t3cc, 7 t4cc, 15 t1a, and 4 t2a. If you had 100 5* @ r4 (the equivalent of a 6* r1) you have invested 120 t4c, 30 t3cc, 70 t4cc, 150 t1a, and 40 t2a.

    My point is the ONLY people with that many resources would have a considerably large 6* roster, as well, and considering r2 shares resources, they would be better off in a 6*. I said all that to say to reinforce my point that losing total scoring points doesn't mean having a large 6* roster has disadvantaged you. You are still competing with the EXACT same segment of people, not introducing anyone new to the fold. Besides the resource investment, in order for you to truly be negatively impacted would be if we assume max cycles. Thing is, if I did max cycles for my 100 5* I put in more effort than you and would I not have been deserving of the champ over you? That the same system it's always been.

    TL;DR Having a lot of 6* still gives you a competitive advantage - it just doesn't give as many points as before. We'll see if this means you would have to increase effort, but I'm doubtful. We'll need a few arena cycles to see if the cutoff does indeed drop, as I think it will. Once we have an idea of the new cutoff, we can approximate total rounds needed to get top 100. If someone has a larger 5* roster, they will still need to work harder than the person with a large 6* roster to get top 100 and if they do that, then that player deserved it more.
    Let me start by saying I liked your post. It's very constructive and thoughtful. And, on the whole, I don't necessarily disagree with everything you're saying. I do however think there's at least a piece to the puzzle that you might be over simplifying. The concept that he who does the most rounds deserves to win. The problem with that theory, is that it's not how the arena has ever traditionally worked. And, even if this change goes through, it still won't be how it works. Though... it will actually push us a step closer to that concept, but not entirely.

    The way the scoring has always worked in the arena system is that the rarity and rank of each champ entered into an arena does in fact matter. Right? A 5 star is worth more than a 4, as a 6 is (or was, in this case) worth more than a 5, etc. And within these sets, there are subsets. Each additional rank counts for extra points as well. It's a fundamental part of the scoring system. This is why I am utterly confused when certain folks (who shall not be mentioned;) say things like.. "progression had never been part of the arena system". Quite the opposite, it's always been one of the core concepts of the arena system (which is actually where some of my objection to this proposed change comes from).

    And, whether folks believe me or not, my position on these proposed changes isn't solely based on a "you'll pry my 6 star from my cold dead hands" type of feeling. It's actually more that A: it's a fundamental change to how the entire scoring system has always worked and B: sets a dangerous precedent for more changes like this in the future. What if they later decide that 5* should be equal to 4*... So that players with 4* rosters can keep up with 5* rosters? Where does it stop? Maybe they start messing with scoring values of the Trials next? Oh, wait.. they already did. Not many folks talking about that, but it happened.

    In summary, different values for different rarities and ranks of champs adds another level of complexity to the arena game mode. It offers a goal to work towards. Something to progress forward for. Just like all the other modes in the game. It's part of what makes it more interesting. Rather than view the arena game mode as 3 day events that all happen independent of each other. Take a step back and view it as an ongoing game mode. Just like story mode. Because, it actually is. You do progress and grow. And as you do, you gain access to higher arenas and higher scores. It's an ongoing journey. To suggest that each arena is an isolated event would be the same as saying every quest you do in story mode is an individual event. It is, but it isnt... it's also part of something larger.

    If what you were saying about how the entire outcome of an arena should be based simply on number of fights were true. Why even have a scoring system to begin with? Instead seeing 17,345 points added to your score after a fight, you'd just see a number 43 become 44. Indicating your number of fights.

    And, when you hear some of us "veteran" players talking about devaluing the time we've put in to the game. That's what we're talking about. I know I sound like a broken record, but we've already done it all in the arena. We used 2, 3, 4 and 5 stars for years already. We faced death matches, we sought advice and learned how to avoid them. We learned how to obtain an "infinite streak". We began to see the fruits of our efforts pay off. As we were able to score higher and enter higher tier arenas... It's all been a journey, a journey of progression. We then have worked for 3 years (approximately how long 6 stars have been in game) to develop our 6 star rosters. Very very slowly at first. Like one per 3 months. Steadily and diligently working towards our goals. Under the impression that it counted for something. And it did, up until 6/10/21. With one swift announcement we're basically told we've been pegged back to a much earlier state in our arena progression, with the snap of a finger. After years of working towards it. Whether folks end up seeing our side of the issue or not. That's what it feels like.

    I have nothing against your opinion and views, sincerely, I'm just sharing some of mine.
    Appreciate the fleshed out response. Yeah, I see your point now that I've given it some more thought.

    I think anyone with a larger 6* roster still maintains an advantage (a sizable one tbh) but it's significantly smaller. I do think that in that subset of people who have been hurt there are still clear advantages, however, they trend towards those with more rank 3s.

    I do still believe scores will drop, though time will tell. That said, I don't think your 6* roster has been devalued completely. It still has value. At the end of the day, you still keep the 6* basic arena, and if you have a large enough 6* roster, you DO have an equally large 5* roster. Do I think it's fair for you? Well, no, now that I've thought about it. But I think it's more of a minor annoyance. The total time for someone in your position will go up somewhat significantly, but I don't think you would be putting in any more work than someone busting their tail in featured. That's what I meant about effort.

    At the end of the day, they still created a 6* basic (which didn't exist prior, and didn't get reverted) so you still come out ahead. You still have the ability to progress, and you still have access to a large 6* roster which affords you the opportunity to compete for the top 100. The total points they can amass per run has changed, but it hasn't been devalued to nothing and growing your roster is still preferred. The paradigm has shifted; not changed. Total points per cycle will still remain higher the more 6* you have even if they are equal to 5* just because you can also run your 5*.

    Not saying you weren't negatively effected by this change because I see that clearer. I do think it may be a bit overblown, but time will tell.
  • KoiBoy18KoiBoy18 Member Posts: 340 ★★★
    Next arena iteration is Purgatory (featured) and Daredevil HK (basic)

    If you have a large 6* roster, where do you focus?

    For most, there is no chance at landing Purgatory, even 5*, so using 6* champs in Featured arena will be a milestones-only\ play

    In the "original" 6* basic arena, 6* champs gave full points so very possible to land that 6* DDHK. But now? 6*s champ points are same as 5*s and with a >50% increased cooldown (11 hrs vs 7 hrs)

    So using 6*s in Basic arena amounts to (effective) 66% points of a 5/65 5* champ . Put another way, they will not help differentiate large 6* rosters in getting a 6* champ out of Basic.

    So yay for changes to milestones and units but remember - this change was a correction, NOT an improvement.
    But 6* basic arena is now a shell of what it could have been - all because of 1 change to 6* champ scoring
  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★

    I'm sure people with scores of 6*s were looking forward to scooping up some easy Basics, but let's weigh needs against wants here.

    Considering a massive portion of milestone grinders do so to save units to buy holiday offers, let's pump the brakes on the needs vs wants for a sec here.
    Which they can still do without the boosts of 6*s. So...yeah. Needs versus wants.
    But they don't NEED to get those offers anymore than people with a bunch of 6*s NEED to get a basic 6* from arena. They're things both groups want. Yet you seem to think one group's wants matter more.
    When you're talking about people being able to participate in any reasonable way in an Arena intended for many, many people....yes. That's a need. People need to Grind the Arena. They need more than Units, they need to be able to progress over time. More than the 1% needs another notch on their belt.
    Define "reasonable way". I guess what some of us view as reasonable is to earn points based on our current roster capability which is based on our effort/time investment thus far in the game (which is presisely what all of us did to get to where we are now). Once again, I suspect someone who has played this game for 5.5 years does in fact know that everyone starts on act 1. With 1* Spiderman. Yes? And we've all been in control of the level of own progression since that day. If anything, I think almost everyone here can agree that the speed of progression has actually done nothing but accelerate since the games release. So, what part am I missing? The newer the player, the easier they have it.. in a manner of speaking. What exactly is this invisible entity or force that's holding folks back?

    Unless you're actually still talking about the failed current first attempt at creating a 3 arena system. Which, no one here that I know of disagrees that it needs to be fixed. They just disagree on *how* it is fixed.
    The speed of progression has changed over time because the game has changed as well. It's not the same game it was when we started. There is still a vast number of Players between those beginning stages and the top. Quite insurmountable considering the difference in Points that a 5* and a 6* give when some people are waiting months in between 6*s. There has to be some kind of leveling system, an in-between space where they can progress. The Basic Arena IS just that, Basic.
    As for people who think the system has failed, the only people I see not content with the revisions are the ones that think they should be allowed to dominate it by right, with less Grinding.
    Define "insurmountable". 😛 Actually, don't this time... I thought I'd give it whirl. Trying to have a actual productive conversation about it, but it ain't working. Just as we (a pretty large portion of the player base) tried to have an intelligent conversation about "Prestige Wars" with you in the past. I'm sure you and other vets in this thread, remember those threads:) Your talking points haven't changed since that topic. Some of it could have been a copy/paste. As you know, after a while Kabam did in fact decide that Prestige based matching was inherently flawed. I'm sure you still disagree with us, and them, about it. But at least that's behind us now.

    Anyway, point is, I do want new and progressing players to have a better time than we did. Not better as in a better experience. Cause I wouldn't trade my experience struggling to progress for anything. It's what made me a stronger, wiser, more patient player. But better as in faster progression. Sure! I've never had any problem with that. I'd rather not see their knowledge and skill growth stunted by *too* easy of a time. But that's not really my responsibility, as I just play the game and not design it.

    Why is that none of us veteran players found the arena "insurmountable" when we were at a lower progression level? That's the question my friend. Even though it was a *slower* progression... We just showed up each day and fought to earn what we could. Then, we showed up the next day and fought again. And as a result, each time, we were a little stronger and wiser. Able to tackle more, earn more and grow...

    After years of conversing with you in these forums. I still have no idea where your belief that veteran players begrudge progressing players comes from. That we want to "hold them down for sake maintaining "dominance" (as you word it) or something utterly ridiculous like that. For many of us, it's the opposite... we enjoy paying it forward. As we once sought advice from those before us. Giving advice or tips to Summoners who are attempting a challenge we've already completed, etc.. It's actually part of what makes this game/community enjoyable. Those of us who geek out on game knowledge and whatnot, sometimes you can't stop us from spamming information on a topic were excited to share on.

    For whatever reason, my words just hit a wall with you and it seems you'll never be willing to drop your "rich get richer" "stomp on the little guy", etc, etc. talking point long enough to hear or absorb any of this. And it's unfortunate.
  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★
    edited June 2021
    Now, as to the actual topic here. Do we think a 3 arena system is viable? My answer is, I'm not sure yet. Kabam is really giving it a good effort to make it work, but I can't say with any certainty if it's going to work. It's possible, that 3 arenas just may not be enough to house and provide fair opportunity for all levels of players in this game. At the end of the day, they may need to add more arenas to make it work. Not sure yet.

    All I can tell you is a fundamental rework of how arena points have always worked in this game seems like way too drastic and desperate of a move to make the 3 arena system work in my opinion. It's a dangerous road to go down.
  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★
    edited June 2021
    abn86 said:

    abn86 said:

    abn86 said:

    I think the changes are good, on the whole. Can't please everyone, but I think the segments who were hurt originally was a bigger population. Arena grinders are a small population of the total game, but of those, you got unit/shard/BC grinders and champ grinders. Anyone who was just hunting for milestones is better off in this one (notwithstanding the Summoner Trials grind, but 4m is doable with 2 hr refresh timers on 4* so that's a wash imo).

    I think champ grinders, specifically 6* basic grinders, feel hurt by this but I'm not sure you should. Points, in and of themselves, are secondary and the grind has always been about total rounds. If you have a large 6* roster you have an equally large 5* roster and still maintain a gigantic advantage. The difference is the total points to get the champ will go down - effort (e.g. rounds) will remain nearly the same. I think this is something that you will probably have to see in practice to actually believe it, but I just don't think it is the catastrophe it may seem.


    Thing is, regardless of the actual winning scores. Nothing changes this fact... Folks with a decent amount of 6 star champs will always (no matter how we try to slice it) be doing somewhere between 50 - 100% more fights to obtain the same score they did before these changes. There's no real way to bypass the math on that.

    Which I find particularly ironic, as the whole reason for these changes was that a segment of the player base was suffering the same fate. The previous thread was littered with complaints about more rounds for less milestones. Correct? That was by far the primary theme of the complaints. This is just a different version of that. Only a different group of players is affected.Maybe it's not to the same degree, but only practice will tell for sure.
    I don't think scores will stay the same, but I do understand a bit more of the argument now. I think the work to get the basic 6* will stay the same, fluctuating up or down based off champ demand. I don't think the scores will stay the same as they have been.

    The way I see it, the total score is the end result of total fights won. I believe (and hope) this will stay approximately the same, even though we will (should) see scores drop. You may disagree, but I hope I'm right. If so, I think a few of you that are concerned would ultimately feel a bit more at ease.

    At the end of the day, even if 6* (in the basic arena) are equivalent to 5* those with a huge roster are still considerably better off than those without. The advantage of having numerous 6* has shifted from earning more points to having a wider roster. At the end of the day, those with big rosters were competing with those with big wallets (or both) and I don't think that's changed. It SEEMS as though the gap got closed between those with large 6* rosters and those with large 5* rosters, but I don't see it. Even with the cool down, the max possible runs (sans refills) for a 5* would be 10 cycles. Max possible runs for a 6* (sans refills) would be 7 cycles. Assuming a complete point equivalency between 5* and 6* I think is where we are going wrong.

    I THINK 6* at r1 would be equivalent to 5* r4. PI-wise they are the similar so I think scoring would be identical. This seems bad, but at max level a r1 6* has only consumed ISO and gold, but a r4 has consumed those resources as well as t4b, t3cc, t1a, t2a and t4cc. 100 5* at r4 is a huge investment. Each r4 is 12 t4b, 3 t3cc, 7 t4cc, 15 t1a, and 4 t2a. If you had 100 5* @ r4 (the equivalent of a 6* r1) you have invested 120 t4c, 30 t3cc, 70 t4cc, 150 t1a, and 40 t2a.

    My point is the ONLY people with that many resources would have a considerably large 6* roster, as well, and considering r2 shares resources, they would be better off in a 6*. I said all that to say to reinforce my point that losing total scoring points doesn't mean having a large 6* roster has disadvantaged you. You are still competing with the EXACT same segment of people, not introducing anyone new to the fold. Besides the resource investment, in order for you to truly be negatively impacted would be if we assume max cycles. Thing is, if I did max cycles for my 100 5* I put in more effort than you and would I not have been deserving of the champ over you? That the same system it's always been.

    TL;DR Having a lot of 6* still gives you a competitive advantage - it just doesn't give as many points as before. We'll see if this means you would have to increase effort, but I'm doubtful. We'll need a few arena cycles to see if the cutoff does indeed drop, as I think it will. Once we have an idea of the new cutoff, we can approximate total rounds needed to get top 100. If someone has a larger 5* roster, they will still need to work harder than the person with a large 6* roster to get top 100 and if they do that, then that player deserved it more.
    Let me start by saying I liked your post. It's very constructive and thoughtful. And, on the whole, I don't necessarily disagree with everything you're saying. I do however think there's at least a piece to the puzzle that you might be over simplifying. The concept that he who does the most rounds deserves to win. The problem with that theory, is that it's not how the arena has ever traditionally worked. And, even if this change goes through, it still won't be how it works. Though... it will actually push us a step closer to that concept, but not entirely.

    The way the scoring has always worked in the arena system is that the rarity and rank of each champ entered into an arena does in fact matter. Right? A 5 star is worth more than a 4, as a 6 is (or was, in this case) worth more than a 5, etc. And within these sets, there are subsets. Each additional rank counts for extra points as well. It's a fundamental part of the scoring system. This is why I am utterly confused when certain folks (who shall not be mentioned;) say things like.. "progression had never been part of the arena system". Quite the opposite, it's always been one of the core concepts of the arena system (which is actually where some of my objection to this proposed change comes from).

    And, whether folks believe me or not, my position on these proposed changes isn't solely based on a "you'll pry my 6 star from my cold dead hands" type of feeling. It's actually more that A: it's a fundamental change to how the entire scoring system has always worked and B: sets a dangerous precedent for more changes like this in the future. What if they later decide that 5* should be equal to 4*... So that players with 4* rosters can keep up with 5* rosters? Where does it stop? Maybe they start messing with scoring values of the Trials next? Oh, wait.. they already did. Not many folks talking about that, but it happened.

    In summary, different values for different rarities and ranks of champs adds another level of complexity to the arena game mode. It offers a goal to work towards. Something to progress forward for. Just like all the other modes in the game. It's part of what makes it more interesting. Rather than view the arena game mode as 3 day events that all happen independent of each other. Take a step back and view it as an ongoing game mode. Just like story mode. Because, it actually is. You do progress and grow. And as you do, you gain access to higher arenas and higher scores. It's an ongoing journey. To suggest that each arena is an isolated event would be the same as saying every quest you do in story mode is an individual event. It is, but it isnt... it's also part of something larger.

    If what you were saying about how the entire outcome of an arena should be based simply on number of fights were true. Why even have a scoring system to begin with? Instead seeing 17,345 points added to your score after a fight, you'd just see a number 43 become 44. Indicating your number of fights.

    And, when you hear some of us "veteran" players talking about devaluing the time we've put in to the game. That's what we're talking about. I know I sound like a broken record, but we've already done it all in the arena. We used 2, 3, 4 and 5 stars for years already. We faced death matches, we sought advice and learned how to avoid them. We learned how to obtain an "infinite streak". We began to see the fruits of our efforts pay off. As we were able to score higher and enter higher tier arenas... It's all been a journey, a journey of progression. We then have worked for 3 years (approximately how long 6 stars have been in game) to develop our 6 star rosters. Very very slowly at first. Like one per 3 months. Steadily and diligently working towards our goals. Under the impression that it counted for something. And it did, up until 6/10/21. With one swift announcement we're basically told we've been pegged back to a much earlier state in our arena progression, with the snap of a finger. After years of working towards it. Whether folks end up seeing our side of the issue or not. That's what it feels like.

    I have nothing against your opinion and views, sincerely, I'm just sharing some of mine.
    Appreciate the fleshed out response. Yeah, I see your point now that I've given it some more thought.

    I think anyone with a larger 6* roster still maintains an advantage (a sizable one tbh) but it's significantly smaller. I do think that in that subset of people who have been hurt there are still clear advantages, however, they trend towards those with more rank 3s.

    I do still believe scores will drop, though time will tell. That said, I don't think your 6* roster has been devalued completely. It still has value. At the end of the day, you still keep the 6* basic arena, and if you have a large enough 6* roster, you DO have an equally large 5* roster. Do I think it's fair for you? Well, no, now that I've thought about it. But I think it's more of a minor annoyance. The total time for someone in your position will go up somewhat significantly, but I don't think you would be putting in any more work than someone busting their tail in featured. That's what I meant about effort.

    At the end of the day, they still created a 6* basic (which didn't exist prior, and didn't get reverted) so you still come out ahead. You still have the ability to progress, and you still have access to a large 6* roster which affords you the opportunity to compete for the top 100. The total points they can amass per run has changed, but it hasn't been devalued to nothing and growing your roster is still preferred. The paradigm has shifted; not changed. Total points per cycle will still remain higher the more 6* you have even if they are equal to 5* just because you can also run your 5*.

    Not saying you weren't negatively effected by this change because I see that clearer. I do think it may be a bit overblown, but time will tell.
    For sure, a lot of this is theory until we see the actual implications. Of course, it's the concept itself I take issue with. Which is why I'm already giving (pages) of feedback. 😂 And once again, I appreciate your thoughtful and constructive additions to the conversation.

    To touch quickly on your point about my effort in the basic being comparable to the Featured arena. Well, that's also part of my position. Part of the point of being excited about the new Basic arena in general was that I could have a better chance of winning a champ from time to time. With less effort than it takes to win a Featured champ. Like Shang Chi... "Have at it boys... good luck." I knew I had no shot winning that champ for example. 😂

    Because, my former competition (large 6 star rosters) quite likely already *have* the champ entering the basic. As they are players with large 6* rosters. 🙂 I didn't want to grind for every champ or something. To "assert my dominance" or whatever my other friend in here thinks we want to do. I just wanted to be on the lookout for champs who have been impossible for me to get from crystals thus far. And buckle down and work for them over a weekend or something. And by the same token, there will be champs I already have who come into the basic. Where I and others like me will sit it out and leave more slots for others. I think GW thinks we want to swoop in and steal all the 6* from the mouths of progressing players or something. 😂 No, not remotely. We just want a fair system where are rosters are not handicapped. Because the arena is and always has been a competitive game mode. You can't just start placing handicaps on folks in a competitive game mode.

    We went through this exact same concept with the whole Prestige based aw matching debates. Kabam eventually agreed that Prestige based matching was quite flawed and has numerous unfair/anti competition side effects. And ultimately reverted the matching system to it's original state (war rating). Where we land on this one, only time will tell.

  • Monk1Monk1 Member Posts: 758 ★★★★
    This is exactly along my points @hungryhungrybbq I want to use my roster (than I have worked hard for) to give me benefit for the basic champs I want. For example I need 6* Ham and and grinding now for him.

    Yes I can compete with my 5* champs, but I don’t want to rank 5* champs anymore (have not for 18 months really) so effectively every week that’s passes my 5* roster actually de value against mid tier players.
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  • BigManOnCampusBigManOnCampus Member Posts: 376 ★★★
    Gmonkey said:

    I will only grind 6 star basic for champs I do not have in basic. As an example I have a large roster 122 6stars I can put up over 80 million without using units, so will grind now and then. Where I am in the game 5 stars are not worthwhile. I do not like Kabam discounting my investment into the game so they can squeeze some more units from refreshing champs.

    yea i don't like that either , dam champs are expensive.
  • GiuliameijGiuliameij Member Posts: 1,849 ★★★★
    able21 said:

    These changes really only affect the people wanting to get to max milestones. The basic arena got worse than the 3/4 arena if you went to 600/800k. Now you just get less. And the number of matches to get units in the higher arenas is nuts. 1m and you get a total of 15 units. Versus 2-3 rounds in the basic. @Kabam Miike its not an alignment of effort or number of fights across the arena. It’s simply adding more milestones that most people won’t do.

    Actually that is not exactly true. Numbers below are the estimation of rounds I need to do based on my roster and masteries:

    Trials: 120 rounds for 270 units
    basic: 45 rounds for 135 units
    featured: 60 rounds for 135 units.

    This roughly amounts to:
    Trials: 2,25 units per round
    Basic: 3 units per round
    Featured: 2,25 units per round

    So the basic actually has better units per round than the other 2. And since in the featured you fase 6* champs that give more battlechips. You could argue you also get more per round. The total number available is just lower. And you get nice rank rewards for doing them, while the trials are not so good in rank rewards.


    Btw, us arguing/discussing among eachother instead of united against Kabam actually shows this new improvement is a step in the very right direction.
    You failed to take into account in your calculations how many rounds it adds to your grind after losing your streak to death squads in the basic arena.
    Actually I didn`t. Like I said. it is he estimation of rounds I need. Since I have enough leveled up teams for arena I will NEVER run into death teams because I get thanos teams starting at streak 7 or 8.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,581 ★★★★★
    Monk1 said:

    This is exactly along my points @hungryhungrybbq I want to use my roster (than I have worked hard for) to give me benefit for the basic champs I want. For example I need 6* Ham and and grinding now for him.

    Yes I can compete with my 5* champs, but I don’t want to rank 5* champs anymore (have not for 18 months really) so effectively every week that’s passes my 5* roster actually de value against mid tier players.

    You can use it. You have an advantage of having x amount of 6*s to continue Grinding with. The difference is they won't be giving a boosted amount of Points. Which is fine because no one else is getting that boost either. So if you want the Champ, you put the time and effort into it like anyone else who is Grinding for a Champ. That's what an Arena competition is all about.
  • abn86abn86 Member Posts: 107

    abn86 said:

    abn86 said:

    abn86 said:

    I think the changes are good, on the whole. Can't please everyone, but I think the segments who were hurt originally was a bigger population. Arena grinders are a small population of the total game, but of those, you got unit/shard/BC grinders and champ grinders. Anyone who was just hunting for milestones is better off in this one (notwithstanding the Summoner Trials grind, but 4m is doable with 2 hr refresh timers on 4* so that's a wash imo).

    I think champ grinders, specifically 6* basic grinders, feel hurt by this but I'm not sure you should. Points, in and of themselves, are secondary and the grind has always been about total rounds. If you have a large 6* roster you have an equally large 5* roster and still maintain a gigantic advantage. The difference is the total points to get the champ will go down - effort (e.g. rounds) will remain nearly the same. I think this is something that you will probably have to see in practice to actually believe it, but I just don't think it is the catastrophe it may seem.


    Thing is, regardless of the actual winning scores. Nothing changes this fact... Folks with a decent amount of 6 star champs will always (no matter how we try to slice it) be doing somewhere between 50 - 100% more fights to obtain the same score they did before these changes. There's no real way to bypass the math on that.

    Which I find particularly ironic, as the whole reason for these changes was that a segment of the player base was suffering the same fate. The previous thread was littered with complaints about more rounds for less milestones. Correct? That was by far the primary theme of the complaints. This is just a different version of that. Only a different group of players is affected.Maybe it's not to the same degree, but only practice will tell for sure.
    I don't think scores will stay the same, but I do understand a bit more of the argument now. I think the work to get the basic 6* will stay the same, fluctuating up or down based off champ demand. I don't think the scores will stay the same as they have been.

    The way I see it, the total score is the end result of total fights won. I believe (and hope) this will stay approximately the same, even though we will (should) see scores drop. You may disagree, but I hope I'm right. If so, I think a few of you that are concerned would ultimately feel a bit more at ease.

    At the end of the day, even if 6* (in the basic arena) are equivalent to 5* those with a huge roster are still considerably better off than those without. The advantage of having numerous 6* has shifted from earning more points to having a wider roster. At the end of the day, those with big rosters were competing with those with big wallets (or both) and I don't think that's changed. It SEEMS as though the gap got closed between those with large 6* rosters and those with large 5* rosters, but I don't see it. Even with the cool down, the max possible runs (sans refills) for a 5* would be 10 cycles. Max possible runs for a 6* (sans refills) would be 7 cycles. Assuming a complete point equivalency between 5* and 6* I think is where we are going wrong.

    I THINK 6* at r1 would be equivalent to 5* r4. PI-wise they are the similar so I think scoring would be identical. This seems bad, but at max level a r1 6* has only consumed ISO and gold, but a r4 has consumed those resources as well as t4b, t3cc, t1a, t2a and t4cc. 100 5* at r4 is a huge investment. Each r4 is 12 t4b, 3 t3cc, 7 t4cc, 15 t1a, and 4 t2a. If you had 100 5* @ r4 (the equivalent of a 6* r1) you have invested 120 t4c, 30 t3cc, 70 t4cc, 150 t1a, and 40 t2a.

    My point is the ONLY people with that many resources would have a considerably large 6* roster, as well, and considering r2 shares resources, they would be better off in a 6*. I said all that to say to reinforce my point that losing total scoring points doesn't mean having a large 6* roster has disadvantaged you. You are still competing with the EXACT same segment of people, not introducing anyone new to the fold. Besides the resource investment, in order for you to truly be negatively impacted would be if we assume max cycles. Thing is, if I did max cycles for my 100 5* I put in more effort than you and would I not have been deserving of the champ over you? That the same system it's always been.

    TL;DR Having a lot of 6* still gives you a competitive advantage - it just doesn't give as many points as before. We'll see if this means you would have to increase effort, but I'm doubtful. We'll need a few arena cycles to see if the cutoff does indeed drop, as I think it will. Once we have an idea of the new cutoff, we can approximate total rounds needed to get top 100. If someone has a larger 5* roster, they will still need to work harder than the person with a large 6* roster to get top 100 and if they do that, then that player deserved it more.
    Let me start by saying I liked your post. It's very constructive and thoughtful. And, on the whole, I don't necessarily disagree with everything you're saying. I do however think there's at least a piece to the puzzle that you might be over simplifying. The concept that he who does the most rounds deserves to win. The problem with that theory, is that it's not how the arena has ever traditionally worked. And, even if this change goes through, it still won't be how it works. Though... it will actually push us a step closer to that concept, but not entirely.

    The way the scoring has always worked in the arena system is that the rarity and rank of each champ entered into an arena does in fact matter. Right? A 5 star is worth more than a 4, as a 6 is (or was, in this case) worth more than a 5, etc. And within these sets, there are subsets. Each additional rank counts for extra points as well. It's a fundamental part of the scoring system. This is why I am utterly confused when certain folks (who shall not be mentioned;) say things like.. "progression had never been part of the arena system". Quite the opposite, it's always been one of the core concepts of the arena system (which is actually where some of my objection to this proposed change comes from).

    And, whether folks believe me or not, my position on these proposed changes isn't solely based on a "you'll pry my 6 star from my cold dead hands" type of feeling. It's actually more that A: it's a fundamental change to how the entire scoring system has always worked and B: sets a dangerous precedent for more changes like this in the future. What if they later decide that 5* should be equal to 4*... So that players with 4* rosters can keep up with 5* rosters? Where does it stop? Maybe they start messing with scoring values of the Trials next? Oh, wait.. they already did. Not many folks talking about that, but it happened.

    In summary, different values for different rarities and ranks of champs adds another level of complexity to the arena game mode. It offers a goal to work towards. Something to progress forward for. Just like all the other modes in the game. It's part of what makes it more interesting. Rather than view the arena game mode as 3 day events that all happen independent of each other. Take a step back and view it as an ongoing game mode. Just like story mode. Because, it actually is. You do progress and grow. And as you do, you gain access to higher arenas and higher scores. It's an ongoing journey. To suggest that each arena is an isolated event would be the same as saying every quest you do in story mode is an individual event. It is, but it isnt... it's also part of something larger.

    If what you were saying about how the entire outcome of an arena should be based simply on number of fights were true. Why even have a scoring system to begin with? Instead seeing 17,345 points added to your score after a fight, you'd just see a number 43 become 44. Indicating your number of fights.

    And, when you hear some of us "veteran" players talking about devaluing the time we've put in to the game. That's what we're talking about. I know I sound like a broken record, but we've already done it all in the arena. We used 2, 3, 4 and 5 stars for years already. We faced death matches, we sought advice and learned how to avoid them. We learned how to obtain an "infinite streak". We began to see the fruits of our efforts pay off. As we were able to score higher and enter higher tier arenas... It's all been a journey, a journey of progression. We then have worked for 3 years (approximately how long 6 stars have been in game) to develop our 6 star rosters. Very very slowly at first. Like one per 3 months. Steadily and diligently working towards our goals. Under the impression that it counted for something. And it did, up until 6/10/21. With one swift announcement we're basically told we've been pegged back to a much earlier state in our arena progression, with the snap of a finger. After years of working towards it. Whether folks end up seeing our side of the issue or not. That's what it feels like.

    I have nothing against your opinion and views, sincerely, I'm just sharing some of mine.
    Appreciate the fleshed out response. Yeah, I see your point now that I've given it some more thought.

    I think anyone with a larger 6* roster still maintains an advantage (a sizable one tbh) but it's significantly smaller. I do think that in that subset of people who have been hurt there are still clear advantages, however, they trend towards those with more rank 3s.

    I do still believe scores will drop, though time will tell. That said, I don't think your 6* roster has been devalued completely. It still has value. At the end of the day, you still keep the 6* basic arena, and if you have a large enough 6* roster, you DO have an equally large 5* roster. Do I think it's fair for you? Well, no, now that I've thought about it. But I think it's more of a minor annoyance. The total time for someone in your position will go up somewhat significantly, but I don't think you would be putting in any more work than someone busting their tail in featured. That's what I meant about effort.

    At the end of the day, they still created a 6* basic (which didn't exist prior, and didn't get reverted) so you still come out ahead. You still have the ability to progress, and you still have access to a large 6* roster which affords you the opportunity to compete for the top 100. The total points they can amass per run has changed, but it hasn't been devalued to nothing and growing your roster is still preferred. The paradigm has shifted; not changed. Total points per cycle will still remain higher the more 6* you have even if they are equal to 5* just because you can also run your 5*.

    Not saying you weren't negatively effected by this change because I see that clearer. I do think it may be a bit overblown, but time will tell.
    For sure, a lot of this is theory until we see the actual implications. Of course, it's the concept itself I take issue with. Which is why I'm already giving (pages) of feedback. 😂 And once again, I appreciate your thoughtful and constructive additions to the conversation.

    To touch quickly on your point about my effort in the basic being comparable to the Featured arena. Well, that's also part of my position. Part of the point of being excited about the new Basic arena in general was that I could have a better chance of winning a champ from time to time. With less effort than it takes to win a Featured champ. Like Shang Chi... "Have at it boys... good luck." I knew I had no shot winning that champ for example. 😂

    Because, my former competition (large 6 star rosters) quite likely already *have* the champ entering the basic. As they are players with large 6* rosters. 🙂 I didn't want to grind for every champ or something. To "assert my dominance" or whatever my other friend in here thinks we want to do. I just wanted to be on the lookout for champs who have been impossible for me to get from crystals thus far. And buckle down and work for them over a weekend or something. And by the same token, there will be champs I already have who come into the basic. Where I and others like me will sit it out and leave more slots for others. I think GW thinks we want to swoop in and steal all the 6* from the mouths of progressing players or something. 😂 No, not remotely. We just want a fair system where are rosters are not handicapped. Because the arena is and always has been a competitive game mode. You can't just start placing handicaps on folks in a competitive game mode.

    We went through this exact same concept with the whole Prestige based aw matching debates. Kabam eventually agreed that Prestige based matching was quite flawed and has numerous unfair/anti competition side effects. And ultimately reverted the matching system to it's original state (war rating). Where we land on this one, only time will tell.

    I agree with everything you said, it's pretty reasonable.

    The more I think about it, the more it seems like they turned it into a 5* arena for a 6* champ (as you mentioned the other day). It's for a basic, so I'm not against that, but I can see why someone in your position would be a bit concerned. It makes scores tighter overall which stiffens the competition.

    I do still think given the lack of rankup material needed to get a 6* to rank 1, you're better off with a larger 6* roster than without, though. A shorter refresh timer isn't nearly enough to compensate for the amount of resources you would need to invest in 5* to make them competitive against someone with a large 6* roster. I know they mentioned that scores would go back to pre-Shang Chi levels, but bear with me.

    I hadn't ran in an arena yet, so I just ran a round going r1 - r5. With my particular mastery setup (non-Suicides) I got pre-multiplier base points average of 9k for r3, 10.6k for r4, 14.3 for r5. If we assume 6* are equivalent to 5* then that would mean all r1 start at ~ 10.6k with a r2 coming around 14.3k. So, max possible runs over 72 hours for 6* without refreshes is 6 while it's 10 for a 5*. If we play with the math a bit, we get right around 129k per round for r5, 95k/round for r4, 81k/round for r3. Let's assume these points for the next part.

    So, let's say you have 99 6* (for math's sake) of which 33 at r1, 33 at r2, 33 at r3. Now, I couldn't measure what 6* r3 scoring will be, only what it is, so I'm just going to do some guesswork. I did some calculations, but basically I'm going to guess that number is around 20k per r3, 180k/round. So that per run of the r1 would be about 1.05 mil, r2 would be 1.4 mil, r3 would be 1.98 mil. So over all three days, you could score 26.6 mil just running your 6* only.

    Now, let's say I have 99 5* of which 33 r3, 33 r4, 33 r5. The per run would be 890k for r3, 1.05 mil for r4, 1.4 mil for r5. Over three total days, assuming maximum runs I can hit 33.4 mil just running my 5* only.

    Okay, so obviously this proves your point that a much harder to obtain rarity doesn't maintain its same value. I can concede that. My counter is the effort. If you only ran your 6* you ran 198 rounds. If I only ran my 5* I ran 330 rounds so I put in more effort for my score.

    That said, you still have 5* to run. What if you had 5 teams of r5 and 5 teams of r4 and you just ran them once you cycled your 6*? Well, that would give you 645k for r5 and 475k for r4 to add on to your score, or about 1.1 mil. That then turns your total points to 33.3 mil. The difference is your effort is still less than mine, but the score is much closer. And for that slight difference of 100k I still had to run 330 rounds to your 258. One more round makes up the difference, and 2 more rounds puts me behind you. And you would still have 210 less total fights (70 rounds) than me.

    In my view, that's still a win, it's just not as big a win as before. And fwiw, I don't think effort (e.g. rounds) will be the same as in the featured. Well, caveat. If the basic is more desirable than the featured then yes, it will probably be more effort. iBom was proof of this.
  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★
    edited June 2021

    Monk1 said:

    This is exactly along my points @hungryhungrybbq I want to use my roster (than I have worked hard for) to give me benefit for the basic champs I want. For example I need 6* Ham and and grinding now for him.

    Yes I can compete with my 5* champs, but I don’t want to rank 5* champs anymore (have not for 18 months really) so effectively every week that’s passes my 5* roster actually de value against mid tier players.

    You can use it. You have an advantage of having x amount of 6*s to continue Grinding with. The difference is they won't be giving a boosted amount of Points. Which is fine because no one else is getting that boost either. So if you want the Champ, you put the time and effort into it like anyone else who is Grinding for a Champ. That's what an Arena competition is all about.
    I'm just gonna prove that I can do short comments here that aren't pages long. As I need to work on this. 🙂 For my thoughts on the concept of "he who does the most fights should win", see above posts where I've given a detailed explanation of how that's never been how the scoring system for arena works in this game. In it's entire history. Rarity and rank have always mattered. Folks are still just glossing over what a radical, fundamental change this would be to way the entire game mode itself works.
  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★
    edited June 2021
    And, there's actually one of my own points that I only quickly glossed over in one of my massive posts:) The fact that the 6* basic is not the only arena where the scoring system has been fundamentally changed. They also announced a rework of rarity scoring values in the trials as well. We're just not talking about it as much. Am I ok with with it? Truthfully, I'm not sure. I would actually defer to the opinion of Summoners who are competing in that arena for their opinion. Whether they feel their 4* roster has been devalued. And if they did, I would listen to their concerns with an open mind.

    Here's the massive difference though... Lower rarities have been adjust *up* in the trials. In the basic, higher rarities have been adjusted *down*. Ties in with my concept of "Do whatever you like to accelerate the progression of newer players, so long as you do not take away from my progression to do so."

  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,581 ★★★★★

    Monk1 said:

    This is exactly along my points @hungryhungrybbq I want to use my roster (than I have worked hard for) to give me benefit for the basic champs I want. For example I need 6* Ham and and grinding now for him.

    Yes I can compete with my 5* champs, but I don’t want to rank 5* champs anymore (have not for 18 months really) so effectively every week that’s passes my 5* roster actually de value against mid tier players.

    You can use it. You have an advantage of having x amount of 6*s to continue Grinding with. The difference is they won't be giving a boosted amount of Points. Which is fine because no one else is getting that boost either. So if you want the Champ, you put the time and effort into it like anyone else who is Grinding for a Champ. That's what an Arena competition is all about.
    I'm just gonna prove that I can do short comments here that aren't pages long. As I need to work on this. 🙂 For my thoughts on the concept of "he who does the most fights should win", see above posts where I've given a detailed explanation of how that's never been how the scoring system for arena works in this game. In it's entire history. Rarity and rank have always mattered. Folks are still just glossing over what a radical, fundamental change this would be to way the entire game mode itself works.
    That's dramatic. It's not that groundbreaking. Champion Rarities have always given an amount of Points that Kabam has set. There have been a number of Arenas that have given set amounts. I won't go into the fundamental system of it relating to PI, but someone made a decision to allow 6*s to give x amount more Points than a 5*, just like someone made a decision to reduce them for this Arena alone. Simply put, a 6* does whatever a 6* is intended to do in any particular game mode. In this specific Arena, that intention has changed.
    I also never said anything about whoever does the most Fights. I said whoever does the most Points. There's more than one way to do that besides having the most 6*s. Regardless of how you look at it, there are only a handful of people who aren't happy with this revision, and it centers around them not being able to dominate it with minimal effort.
  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★
    edited June 2021

    Monk1 said:

    This is exactly along my points @hungryhungrybbq I want to use my roster (than I have worked hard for) to give me benefit for the basic champs I want. For example I need 6* Ham and and grinding now for him.

    Yes I can compete with my 5* champs, but I don’t want to rank 5* champs anymore (have not for 18 months really) so effectively every week that’s passes my 5* roster actually de value against mid tier players.

    You can use it. You have an advantage of having x amount of 6*s to continue Grinding with. The difference is they won't be giving a boosted amount of Points. Which is fine because no one else is getting that boost either. So if you want the Champ, you put the time and effort into it like anyone else who is Grinding for a Champ. That's what an Arena competition is all about.
    I'm just gonna prove that I can do short comments here that aren't pages long. As I need to work on this. 🙂 For my thoughts on the concept of "he who does the most fights should win", see above posts where I've given a detailed explanation of how that's never been how the scoring system for arena works in this game. In it's entire history. Rarity and rank have always mattered. Folks are still just glossing over what a radical, fundamental change this would be to way the entire game mode itself works.
    That's dramatic. It's not that groundbreaking. Champion Rarities have always given an amount of Points that Kabam has set. There have been a number of Arenas that have given set amounts. I won't go into the fundamental system of it relating to PI, but someone made a decision to allow 6*s to give x amount more Points than a 5*, just like someone made a decision to reduce them for this Arena alone. Simply put, a 6* does whatever a 6* is intended to do in any particular game mode. In this specific Arena, that intention has changed.
    I also never said anything about whoever does the most Fights. I said whoever does the most Points. There's more than one way to do that besides having the most 6*s. Regardless of how you look at it, there are only a handful of people who aren't happy with this revision, and it centers around them not being able to dominate it with minimal effort.
    For whatever it's worth, I do read each comment you make with an open mind that I'll see a point I hadn't yet thought of or something like that. Alas, it hasn't yet happened. And as per tradition, you closed this comment as well with both a dismissal of our concerns when you refered to us as a handful of players. And yet another "crush the little guy.." slogan. Smh

    Also, I think it's possible this "handful of players" will increase once the system actually gets implemented. We "forum folk" take for granted that the larger part of the player base is as aware of proposed changes as early as we are. This isn't always the case. There may be a large portion of arena grinders who just haven't heard what's happening yet. Idk, shall see I guess.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,581 ★★★★★
    Okay then. Let me be as frank as I can.
    Let someone else have a chance. They need it more. They're not sitting on a buttload of 6*s. They're barely getting one a month.

    Clear enough?
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  • able21able21 Member Posts: 13

    able21 said:

    These changes really only affect the people wanting to get to max milestones. The basic arena got worse than the 3/4 arena if you went to 600/800k. Now you just get less. And the number of matches to get units in the higher arenas is nuts. 1m and you get a total of 15 units. Versus 2-3 rounds in the basic. @Kabam Miike its not an alignment of effort or number of fights across the arena. It’s simply adding more milestones that most people won’t do.

    Actually that is not exactly true. Numbers below are the estimation of rounds I need to do based on my roster and masteries:

    Trials: 120 rounds for 270 units
    basic: 45 rounds for 135 units
    featured: 60 rounds for 135 units.

    This roughly amounts to:
    Trials: 2,25 units per round
    Basic: 3 units per round
    Featured: 2,25 units per round

    So the basic actually has better units per round than the other 2. And since in the featured you fase 6* champs that give more battlechips. You could argue you also get more per round. The total number available is just lower. And you get nice rank rewards for doing them, while the trials are not so good in rank rewards.


    Btw, us arguing/discussing among eachother instead of united against Kabam actually shows this new improvement is a step in the very right direction.
    You failed to take into account in your calculations how many rounds it adds to your grind after losing your streak to death squads in the basic arena.
    Actually I didn`t. Like I said. it is he estimation of rounds I need. Since I have enough leveled up teams for arena I will NEVER run into death teams because I get thanos teams starting at streak 7 or 8.
    That's great for you but what about the people that don't? How many extra rounds will it add to their grinds?
  • able21able21 Member Posts: 13

    Okay then. Let me be as frank as I can.
    Let someone else have a chance. They need it more. They're not sitting on a buttload of 6*s. They're barely getting one a month.

    Clear enough?

    Oh you mean like all of us did when we started? So you're basically saying we all had to work hard for the champs we got but let's make things easier for the newer, or newer than some of us, players.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,581 ★★★★★
    able21 said:

    Okay then. Let me be as frank as I can.
    Let someone else have a chance. They need it more. They're not sitting on a buttload of 6*s. They're barely getting one a month.

    Clear enough?

    Oh you mean like all of us did when we started? So you're basically saying we all had to work hard for the champs we got but let's make things easier for the newer, or newer than some of us, players.
    That's exactly what happens when the game evolves. I remember waiting a year to get a 5*. That's not the same game we're playing now.
  • Monk1Monk1 Member Posts: 758 ★★★★
    able21 said:

    able21 said:

    Okay then. Let me be as frank as I can.
    Let someone else have a chance. They need it more. They're not sitting on a buttload of 6*s. They're barely getting one a month.

    Clear enough?

    Oh you mean like all of us did when we started? So you're basically saying we all had to work hard for the champs we got but let's make things easier for the newer, or newer than some of us, players.
    That's exactly what happens when the game evolves. I remember waiting a year to get a 5*. That's not the same game we're playing now.
    Classic deflection... Their point was we all managed to progress just fine. Without handicapping other players to do it. How bout instead of trying to bring other players down, they just play the game actively and diligently...gain rewards that way? Crazy concept, I know.. There's like this impatient Veruca Salt thing happening lately. "More more..now now". Nothing is ever fast or good enough. "Well, why can't I have the same rewards as someone who's been playing for 5 years?? I want!"
    - someone playing for 5 months
    Thank you, that was exactly my point. Think of it like this. A person, let's call the Tom, who has worked a job for years is suddenly told by his company that due to all his experience and the many years on the job that they are rewarding him by cutting his hourly pay. They tell him that he is allowed to work more hours so that he can still try to make the same amount weekly though it's doubtful he will be able to. They also tell Tom the reason they are doing this is that they hired someone that will be doing the same job that has very little experience and while the new hire will start at slightly less pay(due to fewer champs...I mean fewer years experience) they wanted to make sure the new hire could advance in the company more quickly than Tom did.

    I know this happens a lot in the real world but that doesn't make it right and it doesn't make it right in this game either. People that have put in the time and effort to not only build their rosters but to have just played the game for years shouldn't be penalized just so that less experienced players or players that have played as long but not put in as much effort have a easier time. I'm by no means a top tier player, and I'm fine with that. There will always be someone that put in a little more effort and advanced more quickly. That was their choice. I sure don't sit around and think "I wish kabam would make it easier for me to get to their level". I get rewarded for my time and effort the same way they did and that's how it should be. You want the rewards, you put in the effort just like everyone before you did.
    Great way to put it across - this is exactly what has happened and people seem to think it is ok.

    On top of this they also moved the bulk of milestones to the trials arena.. again all changes been done to favour newer players.
  • PulyamanPulyaman Member Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★
    Monk1 said:

    able21 said:

    able21 said:

    Okay then. Let me be as frank as I can.
    Let someone else have a chance. They need it more. They're not sitting on a buttload of 6*s. They're barely getting one a month.

    Clear enough?

    Oh you mean like all of us did when we started? So you're basically saying we all had to work hard for the champs we got but let's make things easier for the newer, or newer than some of us, players.
    That's exactly what happens when the game evolves. I remember waiting a year to get a 5*. That's not the same game we're playing now.
    Classic deflection... Their point was we all managed to progress just fine. Without handicapping other players to do it. How bout instead of trying to bring other players down, they just play the game actively and diligently...gain rewards that way? Crazy concept, I know.. There's like this impatient Veruca Salt thing happening lately. "More more..now now". Nothing is ever fast or good enough. "Well, why can't I have the same rewards as someone who's been playing for 5 years?? I want!"
    - someone playing for 5 months
    Thank you, that was exactly my point. Think of it like this. A person, let's call the Tom, who has worked a job for years is suddenly told by his company that due to all his experience and the many years on the job that they are rewarding him by cutting his hourly pay. They tell him that he is allowed to work more hours so that he can still try to make the same amount weekly though it's doubtful he will be able to. They also tell Tom the reason they are doing this is that they hired someone that will be doing the same job that has very little experience and while the new hire will start at slightly less pay(due to fewer champs...I mean fewer years experience) they wanted to make sure the new hire could advance in the company more quickly than Tom did.

    I know this happens a lot in the real world but that doesn't make it right and it doesn't make it right in this game either. People that have put in the time and effort to not only build their rosters but to have just played the game for years shouldn't be penalized just so that less experienced players or players that have played as long but not put in as much effort have a easier time. I'm by no means a top tier player, and I'm fine with that. There will always be someone that put in a little more effort and advanced more quickly. That was their choice. I sure don't sit around and think "I wish kabam would make it easier for me to get to their level". I get rewarded for my time and effort the same way they did and that's how it should be. You want the rewards, you put in the effort just like everyone before you did.
    Great way to put it across - this is exactly what has happened and people seem to think it is ok.

    On top of this they also moved the bulk of milestones to the trials arena.. again all changes been done to favour newer players.
    While reducing the points for 6 stars may affect the veteran arena grinders, moving units/milestones was a very correct move. It was unfair in the last change that they did. Originally, 2, 3 and 4 star arenas gave 265 units combines. They have now combined all the arenas and gave the exact same units. I don't understand why you think that moving milestone benefits only newer players. As a "veteran", you should have more 4 stars maxed than them. Getting those milestones should be easy.
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